changing bad behaviors only when divorce is on the table

[misty12]

So during some of the conversations my husband and I are having about the horrid state of our relationship, I have been bringing up his angry tirades and name-calling which occurred during the entire 14 years of our marriage. I've heard a number of excuses, 1)he couldn't control himself 2)he's been hanging around his angry friend from work (he's only known him for 5 years, so nice try), 3)I deserved it, 4) I called him names too (which was the defense mechanism I developed as I didn't know how else to stop it) 5) he was trying to teach me a lesson etc...

 

So now that I'm halfway out the door, this behavior has completely stopped. So my question is...why didn't it stop when I would get upset and burst into tears in the beginning of our relationship? There were times where he actually laughed at my tears. I guess part of it is my fault for not clearly communicating how I felt about it. He is emotionally immature and I don't think he ever had a respectful male role model in his life (father mistreats his mother). By staying in the marriage I was telling him I was willing to accept it. At the same time, should it be my job to teach an adult man not to verbally abuse a woman?

Edited November 30, 2014 by misty12

[winterpast]

He's doing it to manipulate you into staying. Then he will go back to it. After this long, he hasn't tried to change or learn self control. You may need to just keep on walking and never look back.

 

Look at the behavior when you are together and see if it feels like he loves you. You can't count on the way he treats you when he's trying to "win" you back.

 

My STBex-husband is the same way. I finally left and now all of the sudden he is trying to "get his life in order" and everything. I know it's only a matter of time before he falls back into his old habits.

 

And no, it's not your job to teach him how to treat women or people. He's a grown man and is very aware how he is. He knows better, he just doesn't care.

[Be_Strong]

Sometimes it takes a drastic event in a man's life for him to self-reflect and realize the ways he has been acting badly and decide to make big changes. Divorce (or the real threat of divorce) can be that life-altering event for some guys. The real question is whether his new behavior is temporary or permanent.

[Movingforward2]

Sometimes it takes a drastic event in a man's life for him to self-reflect and realize the ways he has been acting badly and decide to make big changes. Divorce (or the real threat of divorce) can be that life-altering event for some guys. The real question is whether his new behavior is temporary or permanent.

 

 

 

So true. My divorce got me straightened out real quick. I've turned into everything my XW wanted, but it's too late or not the right timing right now. It's unfortunate it took that, but it definitely woke me up. Been a lot of heartbreak for me and my kids, but definitely learned the lesson.

[misty12]

Thank you for the responses.

 

So true. My divorce got me straightened out real quick. I've turned into everything my XW wanted, but it's too late or not the right timing right now. It's unfortunate it took that, but it definitely woke me up. Been a lot of heartbreak for me and my kids, but definitely learned the lesson.

 

Did you try to change for her after the divorce discussion came up? Or was it not until the divorce was finalized? Why do you think it was too late or not the right timing? Just trying to understand where she drew the line to end it for good and not give you the opportunity to change, assuming she didn't.

[carhill]

changing bad behaviors only when divorce is on the table

 

IMO, social hack, akin to turning in homework under threat of denial of (name a privilege). This of course presumes the boundaries were communicated clearly as to what 'bad behavior' is, either by the law or by the spouse in question. For example, as a generally accepted/enforced boundary, a man should already know that assaulting his spouse physically is illegal, hence prohibited behavior, so such boundaries need not be communicated individually.

 

Men are pragmatic. They do what works and determining that is predicated upon a lifetime of experience. His behavior found its impetus during socialization. He learned what he could, and could not, get away with, regarding the gluttony of his id. The mea culpas are simply the ego mediating the gluttony and proscribed boundaries to a satisfactory (for him) outcome.

[misty12]

IMO, social hack, akin to turning in homework under threat of denial of (name a privilege). This of course presumes the boundaries were communicated clearly as to what 'bad behavior' is, either by the law or by the spouse in question. For example, as a generally accepted/enforced boundary, a man should already know that assaulting his spouse physically is illegal, hence prohibited behavior, so such boundaries need not be communicated individually.

 

Men are pragmatic. They do what works and determining that is predicated upon a lifetime of experience. His behavior found its impetus during socialization. He learned what he could, and could not, get away with, regarding the gluttony of his id. The mea culpas are simply the ego mediating the gluttony and proscribed boundaries to a satisfactory (for him) outcome.

 

So in other words, it's total self centeredness on his part and not really at any point do the feelings of the partner serve as a motivator for choice of behaviors?

[GirlStillStrong]

So during some of the conversations my husband and I are having about the horrid state of our relationship, I have been bringing up his angry tirades and name-calling which occurred during the entire 14 years of our marriage. I've heard a number of excuses, 1)he couldn't control himself 2)he's been hanging around his angry friend from work (he's only known him for 5 years, so nice try), 3)I deserved it, 4) I called him names too (which was the defense mechanism I developed as I didn't know how else to stop it) 5) he was trying to teach me a lesson etc...

 

So now that I'm halfway out the door, this behavior has completely stopped. So my question is...why didn't it stop when I would get upset and burst into tears in the beginning of our relationship? There were times where he actually laughed at my tears. I guess part of it is my fault for not clearly communicating how I felt about it. He is emotionally immature and I don't think he ever had a respectful male role model in his life (father mistreats his mother). By staying in the marriage I was telling him I was willing to accept it. At the same time, should it be my job to teach an adult man not to verbally abuse a woman?

These are not "behaviors." He's not a child in grade school. Your perceptions are skewed here. These are WHO HE IS. You know this is true. He will always go back to being an angry, finger-pointing, whiny-ass because People do NOT make the effort necessary to change these things about themselves just because someone else says it bothers them. People have to feel PAIN and SUFFERING to make such drastic and difficult changes to the way they experience and interact with the world and the people in it. They never feel that pain and suffering because those who have to live with these kind of people do not leave, out of guilt, obligation, financial need, control, abuse, and feeling sorry for the person.

[carhill]

So in other words, it's total self centeredness on his part and not really at any point do the feelings of the partner serve as a motivator for choice of behaviors?

In general, at the core level, the vast majority of people operate in their own self-interest, whether the appearances match up with that or not. Some are more blatant about it than others. The tricky ones are the smooth talkers, the one's I've come to deem the 'relationship salespeople'. It's often difficult to know what's at the core or what the motivations are. In general though, reflecting skepticism borne of a lifetime of experience, I default to 'follow the money', meaning what personal benefit arises from the social behavior.

 

If your communicated feelings, as well as actions reflecting them, had any substantive play, since these issues have been on the table for quite some time, any sensitivity he had for the feelings of his spouse would have seen words and actions to address them in a collaborative and mutually beneficial way. Apparently, that hasn't been the case.

[chew123]

Misty12,

 

It is not your job to teach a grown man how to behave. However men and women do see things differently and it is possible he did not understand how much his behavior upset you.

 

The question is, now that he has stopped the behavior do you have any interest in having a relationship with him? It is possible he changed. Many of us who have our spouses leave do change ourselves for the better once we realize how badly we were behaving.(or how our behavior was being perceived). Alas in most cases it seems to be too late to save the relationship.

 

I can tell you from my experience that I have changed myself hopefully permanently and my next relationship will benefit. However my behaviors were in no way abusive as his seem to be and I understand you just wanting out no matter what.

 

Also, if you were bursting into tears at his behavior, I believe that counts as adequate communication, so don't blame yourself that he did not get the message. That should have been enough.

[Movingforward2]

Thank you for the responses.

 

 

 

Did you try to change for her after the divorce discussion came up? Or was it not until the divorce was finalized? Why do you think it was too late or not the right timing? Just trying to understand where she drew the line to end it for good and not give you the opportunity to change, assuming she didn't.

 

The day she left her wedding ring at home I knew. And it immediately changed me for the better. She filed 3 days later, 4 months later we were divorced. I had plenty of time, just didn't really see the bigger issues. I've done everything a man could do to win her back except get with someone else....I didn't want to do that to wake her up, but it's over.

 

 

Now I'm everything she would ever want, but it's time to move on. I've chased her the last 18 months, done the 180, everything to get it out of my head and be a better person. Unfortunately, she isn't willing to give it another shot, right now at least. We both have had a hard time actually separating from each other, but I can't do it anymore. She would have to change herself, and she isn't going to. And it's made me a better dad, a better person, and the guy she knew she got in the beginning.

[GirlStillStrong]

So in other words, it's total self centeredness on his part and not really at any point do the feelings of the partner serve as a motivator for choice of behaviors?

 

Yup. But it's not just him. It's ALL men.

[GirlStillStrong]

In general, at the core level, the vast majority of people operate in their own self-interest, whether the appearances match up with that or not. Some are more blatant about it than others. The tricky ones are the smooth talkers, the one's I've come to deem the 'relationship salespeople'. It's often difficult to know what's at the core or what the motivations are. In general though, reflecting skepticism borne of a lifetime of experience, I default to 'follow the money', meaning what personal benefit arises from the social behavior.

 

However, women are generally more other-focused while men are more self-centered. I've witnessed this time and time again. You Do have some men who are gentle and doting but I've found that when they are, it is either short-lived (the first couple of months of a relationship) or, generally, sporadic. But even nice guys can have major issues you may not want to live with. People are multi-faceted and complex.

[GirlStillStrong]

Just want to say one more thing. Misty, I can't tell you how many times I have told a guy I would not see him because I already knew he was wrong for me, including because of his demeanor or bad habits that I knew I would not and could not live with. I've also wasted countless hours, days, weeks, probably months of my life telling boyfriends what they needed to do for me to continue in a relationship with me. They BEG when you tell them no, they chase you harder when you refuse, then when you give in because they will not leave you alone, or they ask you to give them a chance ("I'll change! I'll stop doing that! I promise!"), they STILL don't get it. You put up with it forever, tell them over and over what is bothering you about the way they act, and when you finally just can't take it anymore and leave or kick them out, THEN they make the changes you asked them to.

 

"Why?" you may ask. Because 1. Men do the bare MINIMUM necessary to keep you in a relationship with them and 2. Men do not believe we are serious. Telling them what you don't like is nagging to them.

 

Never chase a man. Never beg a man. The only way to show them you are serious is to walk out the door. I've seen it countless times in countless relationships, over and over again. You have to be willing to walk away.

[chew123]

Girlstillstrong,

 

I think you are selling men short. Yes there are many who are like you describe. But there are many who are not.

 

Men and women are different , but to say ALL men only change due to their selfcenteredness and not do to the feelings of their partner is absurd.

 

I have seen many stories of men who are blindsided by their wives leaving them. Then the wife says , you know its your fault. I have been sending you coded smoke signals for years that I was not happy and you did not change. The men make the changes and continue them after their wives

are gone.

 

If the wives had communicated frankly and openly early on, I suspect many of these men would have made adjustments due to the feelings of their partners. I believe I would have.

 

Note that in Misty12s case it does seem like she communicated her dissatisfaction so this is not aimed at her.

[GirlStillStrong]

Girlstillstrong,

 

I think you are selling men short. Yes there are many who are like you describe. But there are many who are not.

 

Men and women are different , but to say ALL men only change due to their selfcenteredness and not do to the feelings of their partner is absurd.

 

I have seen many stories of men who are blindsided by their wives leaving them. Then the wife says , you know its your fault. I have been sending you coded smoke signals for years that I was not happy and you did not change. The men make the changes and continue them after their wives

are gone.

 

If the wives had communicated frankly and openly early on, I suspect many of these men would have made adjustments due to the feelings of their partners. I believe I would have.

 

Note that in Misty12s case it does seem like she communicated her dissatisfaction so this is not aimed at her.

 

I never said men only change due to their self-centeredness. I said people, including men, do not change until their pain and suffering is so great that they are forced to change. And about what you say, that men change due to the feelings of their partner? HOGWASH. Total and complete bull****. Let me tell you, I am a straight shooter, no BS, I tell it like it is. And I am VERY comfortable talking with men, as I have many brothers. It does not matter ONE BIT how you tell a man what you want. They do not listen until they are forced to. A man is just like a used car salesman; you have to be willing to walk away before they will ever take you seriously.

 

And just as you describe, men change because she left or threatened to leave, or kicked him out. I'm not selling men short, I'm being realistic. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard a woman say "He did X because he does not love me" or "He won't do what I ask because he does not love me." Women think in terms of love and affection. Men think about themselves and what they can get away with and still be accepted. Men only give in to a woman's wants when they absolutely have to. Women get their feelings hurt all the time believing it has something to do with love.

[misty12]

I never said men only change due to their self-centeredness. I said people, including men, do not change until their pain and suffering is so great that they are forced to change. And about what you say, that men change due to the feelings of their partner? HOGWASH. Total and complete bull****. Let me tell you, I am a straight shooter, no BS, I tell it like it is. And I am VERY comfortable talking with men, as I have many brothers. It does not matter ONE BIT how you tell a man what you want. They do not listen until they are forced to. A man is just like a used car salesman; you have to be willing to walk away before they will ever take you seriously.

 

And just as you describe, men change because she left or threatened to leave, or kicked him out. I'm not selling men short, I'm being realistic. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard a woman say "He did X because he does not love me" or "He won't do what I ask because he does not love me." Women think in terms of love and affection. Men think about themselves and what they can get away with and still be accepted. Men only give in to a woman's wants when they absolutely have to. Women get their feelings hurt all the time believing it has something to do with love.

 

So if men in general do not care about anyone else's feelings, what is the point of leaving a marriage then..only to end up in a relationship dealing with the same thing?

[sadcherry]

Misty12 - I was thinking the same thing! i don't think all women are the same so all men can't be either, with that being said unfortunately I am a dreamer and a fixer so my experiences have only been with men that GirlStillStrong described, if I decide to finally leave my husband I will be taking her advise on board!

Edited December 3, 2014 by sadcherry
Misspelled

[Day.One]

OP, I feel for you. As i was that guy. And believe me when I tell you, threatening to walk out the door won't change him. You have to DO IT. And it may not be enough to get him to 'wake up' .

 

You have to get out, for yourself. You can't change him, so focus on you. Move on. Break with him completely. If he's going to change, he will. But don't hope for it, or expect it.

[Keats]

But why are a majority of men so unhearing?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Keats

[GirlStillStrong]

So if men in general do not care about anyone else's feelings, what is the point of leaving a marriage then..only to end up in a relationship dealing with the same thing?

 

The point is, there are guys out there who do not rage or rage at you. But you're right, all people have their own issues. There is no perfect guy. The next guy may not rage but maybe he is immature, or is an alcoholic, or does drugs, or isn't neat enough, or is too loud and obnoxious, or is a sociopath. The list goes on. It's hard to live with people; it's hard to find someone who is compatible with you. I think the key is finding someone who has the same values, likes to do the same things as you, has a similar temperament and isn't too annoying.

[GirlStillStrong]

But why are a majority of men so unhearing?

 

They hear you. But think about it a second. What if someone told YOU that you had to change something about your self in order to be with them? And you tried, but failed, but the person kept telling you over and over?

 

I've been in lots of relationships with all different kinds of guys, but it's always been the same. They want to be who they are and live the way they want to live, without having to change themselves. Don't you?

 

They do not do well with accommodating others. I think the problem is, women are very particular about how they live their lives and how they want their environment to be and have expectations of men about these things that are too high. I personally have found it is best for me to have my own space. Marriage is not for me. I don't know how any woman lives with a stinky man

[chew123]

I don't have a lot of experience with different relationships. I was with the same woman for 35 years before she left me for another man. I changed behaviors for her during the marriage and I imagine she changed some for me. I suspect out of the 35 years we probably had 33 very good years and she was not happy for the last year or so hence the breakup. That is what the give and take in marriage is about. You modify your behaviors to accommodate each other because you love them.

 

In the end I had an idea she was unhappy although she never communicated it to me. I had to guess and modify some behaviors to what I thought she wanted. They were positive changes and were for me as well as her so I have maintained them.

 

The point of all this is that we had quite a few good years because we made accommodations for each other out of love. And even though it did

not last forever I am grateful for the good years.

 

Girl still strong said no one is perfect. That is true. You have to make sacrifices to coexist with another person. For me and a lot of other men and women it is worth it. I believe most people do care about each others feelings and I look forward to someday meeting another woman who feels the same way.

[misty12]

The point is, there are guys out there who do not rage or rage at you. But you're right, all people have their own issues. There is no perfect guy. The next guy may not rage but maybe he is immature, or is an alcoholic, or does drugs, or isn't neat enough, or is too loud and obnoxious, or is a sociopath. The list goes on. It's hard to live with people; it's hard to find someone who is compatible with you. I think the key is finding someone who has the same values, likes to do the same things as you, has a similar temperament and isn't too annoying.

 

Yes, so I guess it's a matter of determining what you are and are not willing to live with. And if you really love the person for all of their good points, you are willing to overlook the faults. Some though, like abuse of any kind, substance abuse etc.. are not acceptable no matter what.

[misty12]

I don't have a lot of experience with different relationships. I was with the same woman for 35 years before she left me for another man. I changed behaviors for her during the marriage and I imagine she changed some for me. I suspect out of the 35 years we probably had 33 very good years and she was not happy for the last year or so hence the breakup. That is what the give and take in marriage is about. You modify your behaviors to accommodate each other because you love them.

 

In the end I had an idea she was unhappy although she never communicated it to me. I had to guess and modify some behaviors to what I thought she wanted. They were positive changes and were for me as well as her so I have maintained them.

 

The point of all this is that we had quite a few good years because we made accommodations for each other out of love. And even though it did

not last forever I am grateful for the good years.

 

Girl still strong said no one is perfect. That is true. You have to make sacrifices to coexist with another person. For me and a lot of other men and women it is worth it. I believe most people do care about each others feelings and I look forward to someday meeting another woman who feels the same way.

 

And to your point, my husband is changing to accommodate what I was unhappy with and it hasn't changed anything for me. I think it's because once the feelings change, and the love is lost, its so hard, if not impossible to get back. And it should be ok if a relationship doesn't last forever right? you said you had 33 very good years. That's quite a significant part of your life that was enriched by the marriage.