changing bad behaviors only when divorce is on the table

[chew123]

Misty12

 

Yes its ok if it does not last forever. I am sure we both would have liked it to have lasted but 33 years is a great run.

 

I never lost the feelings for my wife til she had the affair, but I do understand that people lose them. I think they may come back but who knows. In my case my wife had moved on, so I had to accept it and move forward as well.

 

Though the split is recent, I am ok with it now and realize I would never want to stay with a woman who did not love me. No point to it.

 

So if you truly have no feelings, set both of you free. In the end you will both be better off.

[GirlStillStrong]

I don't have a lot of experience with different relationships. I was with the same woman for 35 years before she left me for another man. I changed behaviors for her during the marriage and I imagine she changed some for me. I suspect out of the 35 years we probably had 33 very good years and she was not happy for the last year or so hence the breakup. That is what the give and take in marriage is about. You modify your behaviors to accommodate each other because you love them.

 

In the end I had an idea she was unhappy although she never communicated it to me. I had to guess and modify some behaviors to what I thought she wanted. They were positive changes and were for me as well as her so I have maintained them.

 

The point of all this is that we had quite a few good years because we made accommodations for each other out of love. And even though it did

not last forever I am grateful for the good years.

 

Girl still strong said no one is perfect. That is true. You have to make sacrifices to coexist with another person. For me and a lot of other men and women it is worth it. I believe most people do care about each others feelings and I look forward to someday meeting another woman who feels the same way.

 

I suspect she met someone, Chew. I've learned that people can settle in and live the status quo fine but have heard some people say they didn't know how unhappy they were until they met someone else. The grass is always greener. I am so glad you had those 33 good years. But I believe everything happens for a reason and there is more to life than being married. Trick is finding that next thing you are intended to do or accomplish.

 

I also think people take break-ups too personally. I used to, too. Until I realized that my life is about my growth, not whether or not I have a "successful" relationship. The American standard for relationships is codependency. It is best for the individual to be interdependent, however. I think that is what a lot of women are looking for; equality, respect, and a safe place from which to grow. The problem is, most men believe in the codependent model. It's stifling. People live much longer now than ever before. People are divorcing in their 50s and 60s, to find themselves!

 

I'm glad you and your spouse would adjust for one another. But please know there are many things people do that are not simply adjusted, like what Misty12 is talking about. Raging at someone time and again is ABUSE. And angry, abusive men are DANGEROUS. We're not talking about refusal to put down the toilet seat here.

[misty12]

I suspect she met someone, Chew. I've learned that people can settle in and live the status quo fine but have heard some people say they didn't know how unhappy they were until they met someone else. The grass is always greener. I am so glad you had those 33 good years. But I believe everything happens for a reason and there is more to life than being married. Trick is finding that next thing you are intended to do or accomplish.

 

I also think people take break-ups too personally. I used to, too. Until I realized that my life is about my growth, not whether or not I have a "successful" relationship. The American standard for relationships is codependency. It is best for the individual to be interdependent, however. I think that is what a lot of women are looking for; equality, respect, and a safe place from which to grow. The problem is, most men believe in the codependent model. It's stifling. People live much longer now than ever before. People are divorcing in their 50s and 60s, to find themselves!

 

So true. I read stories on here of people entering severe depression, not eating, not sleeping etc.. because their significant other broke up with them. Why give another person so much power and control over you? You managed to survive just fine before that person entered your life, so how is it any different now?

 

I'm glad you and your spouse would adjust for one another. But please know there are many things people do that are not simply adjusted, like what Misty12 is talking about. Raging at someone time and again is ABUSE. And angry, abusive men are DANGEROUS. We're not talking about refusal to put down the toilet seat here.

 

And even though my husband has stopped the raging and claims to love and cherish me, how can i just forget the cruel things he has said during the rages? How do you put all the horrible name calling (idiot, retard, dumba$$) and being told to do everyone a favor and shoot yourself, behind you? I was his punching bag to blow off steam. I should have put an end to it in the beginning, but I didn't. And I'd like to think there are men out there who would be appalled at the thought of saying things like to to anyone, let alone their wife.

[chew123]

Girlstillstrong,

 

Yes she met someone, lied about it for quite a while also. I would have thought after all the years together she could have been up front and just told me about it. Instead she left it for me to figure out. Was not too hard though. To be honest, the fact that she lied and hid the relationship hurt a lot more than the affair itself. If she had just told me she met someone

and was leaving it would have been a lot easier to take.

 

We were actually pretty interdependent, both had our own lives as well as sharing quite a bit in common. Probably why we lasted so long.

 

I actually hope the grass is greener for her, although I have some serious doubts. Even though she is the one who left me I believe I am further along in my new life, both financially and mentally. I am looking forward to the change even though it was forced on me.

 

And I do agree, no reason to stay when there is abuse.

[GirlStillStrong]

Yes, so I guess it's a matter of determining what you are and are not willing to live with. And if you really love the person for all of their good points, you are willing to overlook the faults. Some though, like abuse of any kind, substance abuse etc.. are not acceptable no matter what.

 

Yup.

 

Happiness is a feeling. And like all other feelings, it waxes and wanes. You're not going to be happy all the time. But you can adopt good attitudes and good habits that bring you plenty of happiness. Google Huffington Post Happy or happiness and it will give you plenty of articles on this. A good start (as long as nobody is abusing or hurting you in your current relationship, that is) is to develop an attitude of gratitude. Recognizing how little or how hard other people have it, and being grateful for all that we have, goes a really long way toward making you happy.

[GirlStillStrong]

So true. I read stories on here of people entering severe depression, not eating, not sleeping etc.. because their significant other broke up with them. Why give another person so much power and control over you? You managed to survive just fine before that person entered your life, so how is it any different now?

 

I was that person once, a long time ago. It is a horrible place to be in.

 

And even though my husband has stopped the raging and claims to love and cherish me, how can i just forget the cruel things he has said during the rages? How do you put all the horrible name calling (idiot, retard, dumba$$) and being told to do everyone a favor and shoot yourself, behind you? I was his punching bag to blow off steam. I should have put an end to it in the beginning, but I didn't. And I'd like to think there are men out there who would be appalled at the thought of saying things like to to anyone, let alone their wife.

That is horrible!! I don't think you can erase that kind of thing. I'm sorry, Misty, but why did you put up with that for as long as you did? I would have dumped his ass long ago. How can you love a person like that??

[GirlStillStrong]

Girlstillstrong,

 

Yes she met someone, lied about it for quite a while also. I would have thought after all the years together she could have been up front and just told me about it. Instead she left it for me to figure out. Was not too hard though. To be honest, the fact that she lied and hid the relationship hurt a lot more than the affair itself. If she had just told me she met someone

and was leaving it would have been a lot easier to take.

 

We were actually pretty interdependent, both had our own lives as well as sharing quite a bit in common. Probably why we lasted so long.

 

I actually hope the grass is greener for her, although I have some serious doubts. Even though she is the one who left me I believe I am further along in my new life, both financially and mentally. I am looking forward to the change even though it was forced on me.

 

And I do agree, no reason to stay when there is abuse.

I'm sorry that happened to you Chew. I have been on the receiving end of that kind of thing and I know what you mean about it hurting worse to have been lied to and deceived than the actual affair. It's a rude awakening to realize that someone who is supposed to love and care about you can be so close to you and lie like that for their own benefit. But that's just the point; people, even unselfish people, can be so self-centered. But I've done it in the past too. I was in a long-term relationship and I told the person over and over it wasn't working but he didn't hear or something. We stayed "together" for a long time but then I met someone and tried to move on but really was afraid to hurt him. It wasn't that I was lying or deceiving for my own benefit; I was ready to move on and didn't know how to just TELL him.

[misty12]

That is horrible!! I don't think you can erase that kind of thing. I'm sorry, Misty, but why did you put up with that for as long as you did? I would have dumped his ass long ago. How can you love a person like that??

 

Good question! I guess I have always thought of him as essentially a good person who happens to have an anger problem. Also I started to believe the insults over time thought I deserved it. Sometimes I still think I deserve it.

 

And now he wants to change, and has changed, but after going to individual counseling, and learning to focus on myself, I am now separated emotionally from him. It's sad because I think if I stood up for myself in the beginning, maybe we would have had a good marriage, or maybe we would not have been married and I could have been married to someone else and bypassed all this abuse.

[GirlStillStrong]

Good question! I guess I have always thought of him as essentially a good person who happens to have an anger problem. Also I started to believe the insults over time thought I deserved it. Sometimes I still think I deserve it.

 

And now he wants to change, and has changed, but after going to individual counseling, and learning to focus on myself, I am now separated emotionally from him. It's sad because I think if I stood up for myself in the beginning, maybe we would have had a good marriage, or maybe we would not have been married and I could have been married to someone else and bypassed all this abuse.

 

Or maybe not. Maybe standing up for yourself would have gotten you a black eye. Or worse.

 

He doesn't deserve you.

[EverySunset]

Or maybe not. Maybe standing up for yourself would have gotten you a black eye. Or worse.

 

He doesn't deserve you.

 

Truth, here.

 

So Misty, you've had IC. Has he? I don't think I've ever witnessed an abuser changing on his own. Anyone can stop something for a little while.... But real change tales a lot of introspection and effort.

 

Does your IC therapist think you should even entertain reconciling?

 

Have you had any Marriage counseling?

[Day.One]

On behalf on the men who chose to wake the F up, and as one who came this][close to not waking the F up, I apologise to the Ladies above who are still suffering with the ones that haven't.

 

But I will say, again, that YOU CAN'T CHANGE US. Dumba$$ or enlightened, the choice is ours. If you're stuck with one that hasn't/can't/won't, you have to decide how much of it you're willing to take. How long you will suffer, before you say "ENOUGH!"

[misty12]

Truth, here.

 

So Misty, you've had IC. Has he? I don't think I've ever witnessed an abuser changing on his own. Anyone can stop something for a little while.... But real change tales a lot of introspection and effort.

 

Does your IC therapist think you should even entertain reconciling?

 

Have you had any Marriage counseling?

 

Hi Everysunset,

 

He went to 2 IC sessions which I set up for him, but said it wasn't helpful so he stopped going. If I made it a condition to stay married he might, but not so sure.

 

My IC strongly advises against me reconciling with him. She has seen every scenario under the sun for 35 years so maybe I should listen to her.

[carhill]

An IC will generally operate in what they believe is the client's best interest personally, without regard to other considerations. However, one can task the IC to work any specific issue, even if that issue conflicts with the IC's perspective on client's best interest. For example, if you wanted to work tools and scenarios to effect a healthy reconciliation, you could task the IC to work that. It's up to you. They're a facilitator and advisor on matters psychological.

 

IME, very few men I know, in fact none now that I think of it, believe in counseling. Perhaps that is generational, as men of my generation tend to be rugged individualists who think psychology is horseshyte and men who whine about their problems (talk about their feelings) are soft, like a girl. Ring any bells?

[misty12]

An IC will generally operate in what they believe is the client's best interest personally, without regard to other considerations. However, one can task the IC to work any specific issue, even if that issue conflicts with the IC's perspective on client's best interest. For example, if you wanted to work tools and scenarios to effect a healthy reconciliation, you could task the IC to work that. It's up to you. They're a facilitator and advisor on matters psychological.

 

IME, very few men I know, in fact none now that I think of it, believe in counseling. Perhaps that is generational, as men of my generation tend to be rugged individualists who think psychology is horseshyte and men who whine about their problems (talk about their feelings) are soft, like a girl. Ring any bells?

 

My husband seems to be all for MC to fix our marriage, but not IC to fix HIS issues. So he must believe in it to some extent, right?

 

He has continued the good behavior...no lashing out, no insults, is proactively doing chores, cooking dinner etc.. This is what kills me. Where was this for the last 14 years when I wasn't having EA's or pulling away emotionally? He has cooked dinner ONCE that I can remember and that was 13 years ago. All this time it was him claiming he shouldn't have to do the dishes because the dinners I made were so simple it wasn't a lot of work on my part. Now he's doing dishes, going food shopping, cooking, serving me, all without me asking... WTH?

[carhill]

If he seems to be all for MC, get him in there and work the marital issues. The MC may wish to interview you and he separately and, as applicable, might refer him out for IC. What he does with that is up to him. Meanwhile, IMO accept his actions as authentic and as no indicator of future behavior, positive or negative.

 

IME, having been in MC, meaningful change for myself took about 8 months of weekly sessions to start, then it gained momentum over the next six months or so, to the point where consistent behavioral changes occurred that stuck, meaning became ingrained. Those changes are largely why our D was amicable. YMMV, as your H is a unique individual, and your outcome will be unique to the two of you.

 

If you want to stay married, expect resolving it to a healthy state to take time. If you, or he, aren't willing to make that investment without reservation, file for D and mediate it out and move on. Life is brief. Make it count.

[misty12]

If he seems to be all for MC, get him in there and work the marital issues. The MC may wish to interview you and he separately and, as applicable, might refer him out for IC. What he does with that is up to him. Meanwhile, IMO accept his actions as authentic and as no indicator of future behavior, positive or negative.

 

IME, having been in MC, meaningful change for myself took about 8 months of weekly sessions to start, then it gained momentum over the next six months or so, to the point where consistent behavioral changes occurred that stuck, meaning became ingrained. Those changes are largely why our D was amicable. YMMV, as your H is a unique individual, and your outcome will be unique to the two of you.

 

If you want to stay married, expect resolving it to a healthy state to take time. If you, or he, aren't willing to make that investment without reservation, file for D and mediate it out and move on. Life is brief. Make it count.

 

Do you mind sharing why you divorced after successful MC?

[carhill]

While I think another LS'er put it pretty succinctly that my exW didn't want to be married to me anymore, a more complete answer would come much later, after we divorced, when she opined she would have done things differently, mainly in the area of her actions surrounding the era of my caregiving for a terminally ill parent (mental illness). As it was, she didn't want to deal with it and I couldn't support and love a person who abandoned me in a time of need, so chose, inappropriately, to seek out such love and support elsewhere, so we proceeded to get divorced and, ironically, I would pick up the remains of the person in question the day before the dissolution was final.

 

I now write it off to bad timing. No hard feelings. In the future, the lesson of MC was to communicate more clearly and move on if my reasonable needs and wants aren't being proactively addressed. I don't fear divorce and leaving women anymore as a point of failure. I did before. Perhaps it's still failure but I don't fear it. Life goes on.

[Justanaverageguy]

However, women are generally more other-focused while men are more self-centered. I've witnessed this time and time again. You Do have some men who are gentle and doting but I've found that when they are, it is either short-lived (the first couple of months of a relationship) or, generally, sporadic.

 

I've also wasted countless hours, days, weeks, probably months of my life telling boyfriends what they needed to do for me to continue in a relationship with me.

 

"Why?" you may ask. Because 1. Men do the bare MINIMUM necessary to keep you in a relationship with them and 2. Men do not believe we are serious. Telling them what you don't like is nagging to them.

Sorry maybe off topic from the OP but I'm going to interrupt the man bashing her for just a moment if that's ok GirlStillStrong - I've read a few of your posts and they really jump out at me because of how angry you seem to be with the entire male population of the world. I find a couple of things odd - you provide sweeping generalization about how men are completely self centered, self focused, and don't care about womens needs. But then every single post is about you - your needs. About how men don't act how you need them to act, be what you need them to be, why they don't measure up to your standards or have bad habits you can't live with. Can I ask how many of these men asked you to change your behavior and then threatened to leave you if you didn't do it ? Seriously how many men gave you that ultimatum ? Do you think it was because you are perfect or because you don't have bad habits or issues of your own ? Do you not see even the slightest bit of hypocrisy in your comments about how selfish men are ? You claim women to be "other focused" .... but really what you have described is you focusing on how others need to change to meet your needs. The below sentence jumped out at me in particular because of how completely contradictory it is.

 

I've been in lots of relationships with all different kinds of guys, but it's always been the same. They want to be who they are and live the way they want to live, without having to change themselves. They do not do well with accommodating others. I think the problem is, women are very particular about how they live their lives and how they want their environment to be and have expectations of men about these things that are too high. I personally have found it is best for me to have my own space. Marriage is not for me. I don't know how any woman lives with a stinky man

 

Your essentially saying women are exactly the same as MEN!!! But then you blame men for being this way.

 

And I'm not talking about abusive partners or other clearly out of line behavior in relationships here. I'm talking normal everyday relationship issues or personality differences which cause problems. You are never going to find Mr 100% Perfect in the real world. He simply doesn't exist. Relationships are compromise. Give and take with someone you care about. You weigh up the pro's and cons and determine if you can live with the shortcomings (which often aren't shortcomings at all in my opinion just differences).

 

I'm not saying I have the answers because my last relationship fell apart but I'm realistic about what to expect from a partner and try to find real ways to work around issues or mitigate them rather then just writing off the entire female gender and saying they are not for me.

[Midwestmom12]

My divorce finally became final this past June. My ex husband is definitely a narcissist. Not saying that every man that rages is but I do believe personally that narcissism or better yet narcissistic rage is at the core of most types of abuse.

 

I don't believe all men are self centered and abusive. I have come across just as many destructive women. However, it's important to note that it is hard for most people to change who they are. There is no excuse for horrific verbal assaults and the consequences can be just as severe as physical violence. In fact the scars from verbal abuse tend to linger much longer. My ex husband would call me a b*t$& and c^n!. He would throw things and punch walls. It left me on egg shells as I never knew when a seemingly good day would turn bad.

 

To all of the sudden want to change after years of that type of behavior isn't genuine. My ex all of the sudden wanted to change and go to marriage counseling. The good act didn't last long. It's normally just a ploy to keep the victim on the hook. If your husband really wanted to change he would seek IC in addition to marriage counseling to get to the root of his own issues.

 

My ex wouldn't do that. He insisted that I was just as much at fault. It takes two to tango but my guilt wasn't in causing his rage, it was rather my codependency and willingness to try to cover it up. When I realized this I left and didn't look back. He morphed back into the true monster he is when he realized all of his control was lost.

[GirlStillStrong]

My husband seems to be all for MC to fix our marriage, but not IC to fix HIS issues. So he must believe in it to some extent, right?

 

He has continued the good behavior...no lashing out, no insults, is proactively doing chores, cooking dinner etc.. This is what kills me. Where was this for the last 14 years when I wasn't having EA's or pulling away emotionally? He has cooked dinner ONCE that I can remember and that was 13 years ago. All this time it was him claiming he shouldn't have to do the dishes because the dinners I made were so simple it wasn't a lot of work on my part. Now he's doing dishes, going food shopping, cooking, serving me, all without me asking... WTH?

I hate to say it but what I'm learning is you have to treat them like sh**, be inattentive, make them chase you, in order for them to do what you want. I had one BF tell me, "I want you to use me." I was dumbstruck. I'm just not that way. Plus, why do they want you to use them, so that they can feel justified in using you?

[GirlStillStrong]

Sorry maybe off topic from the OP but I'm going to interrupt the man bashing her for just a moment if that's ok GirlStillStrong - I've read a few of your posts and they really jump out at me because of how angry you seem to be with the entire male population of the world. I find a couple of things odd - you provide sweeping generalization about how men are completely self centered, self focused, and don't care about womens needs. But then every single post is about you - your needs. About how men don't act how you need them to act, be what you need them to be, why they don't measure up to your standards or have bad habits you can't live with. Can I ask how many of these men asked you to change your behavior and then threatened to leave you if you didn't do it ? Seriously how many men gave you that ultimatum ? Do you think it was because you are perfect or because you don't have bad habits or issues of your own ? Do you not see even the slightest bit of hypocrisy in your comments about how selfish men are ? You claim women to be "other focused" .... but really what you have described is you focusing on how others need to change to meet your needs. The below sentence jumped out at me in particular because of how completely contradictory it is.

 

 

 

Your essentially saying women are exactly the same as MEN!!! But then you blame men for being this way.

 

And I'm not talking about abusive partners or other clearly out of line behavior in relationships here. I'm talking normal everyday relationship issues or personality differences which cause problems. You are never going to find Mr 100% Perfect in the real world. He simply doesn't exist. Relationships are compromise. Give and take with someone you care about. You weigh up the pro's and cons and determine if you can live with the shortcomings (which often aren't shortcomings at all in my opinion just differences).

 

I'm not saying I have the answers because my last relationship fell apart but I'm realistic about what to expect from a partner and try to find real ways to work around issues or mitigate them rather then just writing off the entire female gender and saying they are not for me.

I was going to answer some things specifically but I don't want to hijack this thread. I'm not a man hater and yes it seems I am man-bashing but I just call em like I see em. You don't know how gracious, loyal, accommodating, kind, benevolent, understanding, and loving I have been in ALL of my relationships with men, towards them, their families, their children, and the mothers of those children, nor what I have gotten from them in return. If you think I am angry, I'd say I have every right to be, but you're wrong. I'm not angry at men. I just don't care to try anymore (see above). But yes, when I tell a man that in order to be in a relationship with me he has to: be gainfully employed and contribute to expenses, address his drug, alcohol, or other addictions, be nice to little children and babies, stop being a racist, not have sex with other people, be single, take care of his children properly, stand up when his adult children throw temper tantrums, not be an abusive prick, etc etc etc, I mean it (and yes, these are several normal, average, American guys). And if you think that is me being self-centered and selfish the way men are (time and again, read the paper) so be it.

 

But do me a favor, don't assume from some posts on a webpage to know me. And don't talk to me about compromise. You have no idea how giving and patient I am with people. I am a completely self-reliant woman. I need nothing from any relationship with a man, on purpose, so that I never have to be stuck with someone else's bull **** games or dysfunction, or stuck being a parent to a grown man. I don't ask for much but people have real issues that I am just not willing to put up with. When I find a trustworthy man who knows how to have a mature, adult, interdependent relationship with a grown woman, I'll let you know, but don't hold your breath.

 

But you really ought to look into why what you perceive me to be bothers you so much. Something is hitting close to home there for you and you're trying to make it about me.

[Justanaverageguy]

But do me a favor, don't assume from some posts on a webpage to know me. And don't talk to me about compromise. You have no idea how giving and patient I am with people. I am a completely self-reliant woman. I need nothing from any relationship with a man, on purpose, so that I never have to be stuck with someone else's bull **** games or dysfunction, or stuck being a parent to a grown man. I don't ask for much but people have real issues that I am just not willing to put up with. When I find a trustworthy man who knows how to have a mature, adult, interdependent relationship with a grown woman, I'll let you know, but don't hold your breath.

 

But you really ought to look into why what you perceive me to be bothers you so much. Something is hitting close to home there for you and you're trying to make it about me.

 

Sorry was not assuming to know you and didn't mean to offend you. I had just seem you comment on 3 or 4 different threads where each one had pretty much the same harsh generalizations about how bad men are. Not really hitting close to home at all ... it just jumped out at me is all. Felt I needed to go into bat for my team if you will You find ****ty people everywhere but from my experience it has very little to do with gender and there are just as many good and bad people on both sides of the gender pool.

 

Your list of requirements don't sound too unrealistic - don't throw in the towel just yet I swear there are a few good fella's out there. We are not all bad

[misty12]

late last night, I was talking to a male friend, someone I used to work with who has gone through a divorce. He called to see how I was doing. My husband heard me on the phone and was asking who I was talking to at that hour. I was embarrassed and hung up the phone and wouldn't tell him who I was talking to. Stupid decision, I know, but I panicked. I finally confessed it was this guy I used to work with, and husband was so mad because as I had mentioned in one of my posts, I had an EA not that long ago (it was the EA that initiated all of the divorce conversations and spurred my husband to stop the verbal abuse). So he screamed at me and called me a lying whore. This gets me thinking again that I deserve the verbal abuse.. this situation is really unhealthy..