Personality of WS's Not Always What You'd Think?

[Striver]

I agree, lack of confidence and loss of emotional investment in currant relationship is a big motivator in cheating. The list you gave is quite freaky. Simply because, eventually there will be tough times and lulls in every marriage- and fluctuation in self-esteem from time to time happens to all of us. It's like, if marriage isn't perfect in everyway, 100% of the time- it's an opening to cheat. It's a bit of a downer.

 

I think the lack of emotional investment is the most important. My STBXW is a narcissist. Extremely dominant, needs to control everything. If she lacks confidence it isn't particularly evident. I know there are things she feels bad about, but if they come up she usually goes into attack mode or has justifications at the ready.

 

Usually dominance would indicate emotional investment, but not in her case. More like a top tier exec who hops from company to company. A "big person", but not really emotionally connected. That's her.

[DbleBetrayal]

While my wife was having her affair I was still keeping my fidelity to her even know she was treating me like a piece of garbage. If anything I should have built up enough resentment from the bs she put me through to make another women look that much more appealing. I did not. I just thought we hit a low point. At the end right before I found out I tried everything I possibly could to win her back. All that time I didn't know I was competing with some other guy. I'm sure she felt flattered at the time

 

I think when most of us reflect back around the time of the cheating, we can remember there was a certain amount of being treated like garbage and an emotional checkout ensuing. Yep, I also remember feeling confused, hurt and rejected whilst struggling to work with WH whatever the problem was- unknowingly.

 

Sometimes you don't know what came first- does the emotional checkout occur prior to the cheating, or after the cheating. It probably varies as well, but I am guessing most of the time it comes after the cheating.

[elaine567]

So your point is that everyone is "capable" of cheating? If the stars align just right, you too might cheat? As a WW, will you ever accept that you did a selfish, hurtful thing to your husband? No excuses, no "it could happen to anyone" crap?

 

Lots of people don't cheat. No matter how drunk or mad or horny or disillusioned with marriage they don't betray their spouse by having sex with someone else. Maybe lots of people do but not all of us.

 

And the 2 "Likes" on this post are both WW's as well. You guys are a cliché.

 

I have never been a WW, what on earth gave you that idea?

[drifter777]

I have never been a WW, what on earth gave you that idea?

Oh - I'm sorry. This post:

 

Not everyone is at the stage of deep remorse, not everyone even feels deep remorse, some if we are honest may never feel deep remorse over an affair.

 

And I thought there was another one about you being black-out drunk when it happened but I guess I'm mistaken. I also got the feeling from many of your posts in that you seem to look to mitigating factors regarding the WS. Even though I agree that not all affairs are the same - they all destroy the BS and recovery is hell.

[jm2013]

I think when most of us reflect back around the time of the cheating, we can remember there was a certain amount of being treated like garbage and an emotional checkout ensuing. Yep, I also remember feeling confused, hurt and rejected whilst struggling to work with WH whatever the problem was- unknowingly.

 

Sometimes you don't know what came first- does the emotional checkout occur prior to the cheating, or after the cheating. It probably varies as well, but I am guessing most of the time it comes after the cheating.

 

It's so crazy to think about. I bet this is extremely similar to many situations involving infidelity. The emotional checkout starts happening when you start to be compared to the new person you're infatuated with. The WS enters this phase. It is the same phase where we all were with our spouses when we first started dating. Endless conversations, trying to find similarities and taking a like to each others interests. The emotions build and build and it climaxes and boom. During this whole process though is when I think the distancing starts happening with the BS.

[Spark1111]

It's so crazy to think about. I bet this is extremely similar to many situations involving infidelity. The emotional checkout starts happening when you start to be compared to the new person you're infatuated with. The WS enters this phase. It is the same phase where we all were with our spouses when we first started dating. Endless conversations, trying to find similarities and taking a like to each others interests. The emotions build and build and it climaxes and boom. During this whole process though is when I think the distancing starts happening with the BS.

 

it's called triangulation and happens often in relationships, not just affairs....

 

There is the victim and rescuer and these two roles are interchangeable. The third role is persecutor and is always occupied by the unknowing BS. The more the BS are vilified, the stronger the bond can grow between the victim and the rescuer.

[elaine567]

Oh - I'm sorry. This post:

 

Not everyone is at the stage of deep remorse, not everyone even feels deep remorse, some if we are honest may never feel deep remorse over an affair.

 

And I thought there was another one about you being black-out drunk when it happened but I guess I'm mistaken. I also got the feeling from many of your posts in that you seem to look to mitigating factors regarding the WS. Even though I agree that not all affairs are the same - they all destroy the BS and recovery is hell.

 

I have never been black out drunk in my life and am not a WW. "We" I used in the generic sense.

As for my stance, I just like to think I like to look at things objectively, without bias. Objectivity that I feel is sometimes lacking in some posters regarding the subject perhaps.

I just feel everyone has a story in life and things are not often as black and white as some seem to want them to be.

[drifter777]

I have never been black out drunk in my life and am not a WW. "We" I used in the generic sense.

As for my stance, I just like to think I like to look at things objectively, without bias. Objectivity that I feel is sometimes lacking in some posters regarding the subject perhaps.

I just feel everyone has a story in life and things are not often as black and white as some seem to want them to be.

Final TJ - are you a BW?

[elaine567]

Maybe.

[jm2013]

Maybe.

 

Aw. This is interesting. For some reason I was under the impression your were a FWW. You seem to always play devils advocate on the WW threads .

[2.50 a gallon]

I understand how low self esteem can play a part in an affair.

However, in the case of the half dozen married women that I had sex with, it was totally the opposite. They were tired of being treated as less than a wife.

 

 

Example: One had met and began dating her H in college and married shortly after they graduated. She was a co-worker and very much in love with her H and very much looked forward to having children. They had put off having kids until they were financially strong. Both were now making good money, had just invested in their dream house, and their 5th wedding anniversary was coming up. They had decided to spend that weekend at a romantic B&B they had visited several times, and had already made reservations. And it just so happened that her clock work, indicated that there was a good chance that they could conceive on the night of their anniversary.

As I said she was very much in love with him, and everybody in the shop knew that they were taking off again to the B&B for there anniversary.

 

 

Some of my co-workers and I would get together about every other Saturday at a local club, just to let off steam, share a good time, etc.

 

 

She had never been to one of our get togethers', so we were surprised to see her show up. At work she was a very conservative dresser, but on this night, she was wearing a brand new bright red, cling to the body, show every thing, dress with a short skirt split up the sides.

 

 

She followed me out for a smoke break, odd as she did not smoke, and let me know she had a box or rubbers in her purse, she was out to get laid, and if I was not interested she would find someone who was.

 

 

What had happened, on Thursday H had let her know that he was going with his buddy to Reno to watch a poker tournament, which he did the following night.

 

 

Marriage was over.

[jm2013]

I understand how low self esteem can play a part in an affair.

However, in the case of the half dozen married women that I had sex with, it was totally the opposite. They were tired of being treated as less than a wife.

 

 

Example: One had met and began dating her H in college and married shortly after they graduated. She was a co-worker and very much in love with her H and very much looked forward to having children. They had put off having kids until they were financially strong. Both were now making good money, had just invested in their dream house, and their 5th wedding anniversary was coming up. They had decided to spend that weekend at a romantic B&B they had visited several times, and had already made reservations. And it just so happened that her clock work, indicated that there was a good chance that they could conceive on the night of their anniversary.

As I said she was very much in love with him, and everybody in the shop knew that they were taking off again to the B&B for there anniversary.

 

 

Some of my co-workers and I would get together about every other Saturday at a local club, just to let off steam, share a good time, etc.

 

 

She had never been to one of our get togethers', so we were surprised to see her show up. At work she was a very conservative dresser, but on this night, she was wearing a brand new bright red, cling to the body, show every thing, dress with a short skirt split up the sides.

 

 

She followed me out for a smoke break, odd as she did not smoke, and let me know she had a box or rubbers in her purse, she was out to get laid, and if I was not interested she would find someone who was.

 

 

What had happened, on Thursday H had let her know that he was going with his buddy to Reno to watch a poker tournament, which he did the following night.

 

 

Marriage was over.

 

You have the most craziest stories lol. I can see this though. There are a bunch of horny older women I work with. This one has been married to her high school sweetheart for years but every time I'm helping her she gives off some weird vibes I've been picking up lately. Another woman here started cooking and bringing me lunches as well. Weird stuff going on. All in all I don't doubt what you have said about a lot of women in the workplace. Though what I'm interested to know is did you hit on these women or what? Why were they so eager to all drop their panties for you?

[Rainbowlove]

But I do think everyone should stay well away from fire and have good boundaries because too many "fallen" have thought they were so far above an affair that they thought they'd never cheat and so crossed boundaries you just shouldn't cross.

 

Bingo. I've learned after much introspective work, this lack of personal boundaries was the key ingredient leading to my fall from grace and infidelity. I realized I had a long line of lack of boundaries in a lot of relationships, even my marriage. This is not to place any blame on my innocent spouse at all.

 

However, I didn't speak up for myself well in my marriage. I remember sitting in marriage counseling whilst in my emotional affair (before it turned physical) and the counselor asking me to name my needs. Silence. Dead silence. I couldn't identify one unmet need. I knew I felt unheard, I knew I felt ignored, I knew I felt insignificant to my spouses busy life...but I didn't know how to say, I need to be included in your life, I need to be first on your list, I need to be considered when you are late coming home, I needed more one on one time, I need date nights etc.

 

Lack of personal boundaries and communication skills are really a deadly combo in a marriage.

 

After 20 years together, we stopped listening and trying to meet each other's needs. We stopped putting each other first. We just went through the motions in our marriage and took each other for granted. We stopped investing in our emotional bank (as our counselor has called it). Our emotional bank was depleted and I unhappy and resentful and turned to someone else to fill the voids.

 

I don't think this is true for all waywards, but it's likely true for many.

 

Fire away....

[jm2013]

Bingo. I've learned after much introspective work, this lack of personal boundaries was the key ingredient leading to my fall from grace and infidelity. I realized I had a long line of lack of boundaries in a lot of relationships, even my marriage. This is not to place any blame on my innocent spouse at all.

 

However, I didn't speak up for myself well in my marriage. I remember sitting in marriage counseling whilst in my emotional affair (before it turned physical) and the counselor asking me to name my needs. Silence. Dead silence. I couldn't identify one unmet need. I knew I felt unheard, I knew I felt ignored, I knew I felt insignificant to my spouses busy life...but I didn't know how to say, I need to be included in your life, I need to be first on your list, I need to be considered when you are late coming home, I needed more one on one time, I need date nights etc.

 

Lack of personal boundaries and communication skills are really a deadly combo in a marriage.

 

After 20 years together, we stopped listening and trying to meet each other's needs. We stopped putting each other first. We just went through the motions in our marriage and took each other for granted. We stopped investing in our emotional bank (as our counselor has called it). Our emotional bank was depleted and I unhappy and resentful and turned to someone else to fill the voids.

 

I don't think this is true for all waywards, but it's likely true for many.

 

Fire away....

 

Why didn't you tell your husband that? My wife did the same things. In fact, my wife would tell me to go do something she really didn't want me to do. I'm not sure if this is universal to most women but guys are mostly logical. If you tell me X then I will think you mean X and not Z. With my wife at least it was some weird guessing game. I should have "known" what she wanted.

[Rainbowlove]

Why didn't you tell your husband that?

 

I'm a lesbian, so no husband.

 

I told my wife I was unhappy, but couldn't clearly identify why. For years, I tried to get her to 'fix" something that was broken with us, but it was I that was broken.

 

She couldn't read my mind and I couldn't clearly say "what I needed" from her, from our union, from life. So what did I do? I blamed her for my unhappiness. It wasn't me that was broken, right? God forbid. It had to be her fault.

 

I think when waywards become so lost (and wayward) we don't recognize what the problems truly are, they build, and we shut down and close up and give up somewhere deep inside long before we cheat.

 

Then someone comes along and makes us feel a spark, a sign of life and we think...ah ha, it wasn't me. It was us, it was our broken marriage. Look how happy I am now....look, I'm alive again.

 

Again, not true for all waywards, my truth.

[Rainbowlove]

With my wife at least it was some weird guessing game. I should have "known" what she wanted.

 

Communication break down 101.

[spanz1]

if I were to guess, I would say "insecurity" would be one trait of many cheaters. Like a woman is a nice stay at home mom for years, driving the kids around, thinking "I am over the hill, no one would ever give me a second look". Then some guy starts hitting on them, they get the thrill of their lives, the cobwebs get shed from her libido, and its off to the races.

 

 

So there is someone who the husband would NEVER think would cheat, hopping into bed with the first guy she connects with!

[jm2013]

I'm a lesbian, so no husband.

 

I told my wife I was unhappy, but couldn't clearly identify why. For years, I tried to get her to 'fix" something that was broken with us, but it was I that was broken.

 

She couldn't read my mind and I couldn't clearly say "what I needed" from her, from our union, from life. So what did I do? I blamed her for my unhappiness. It wasn't me that was broken, right? God forbid. It had to be her fault.

 

I think when waywards become so lost (and wayward) we don't recognize what the problems truly are, they build, and we shut down and close up and give up somewhere deep inside long before we cheat.

 

Then someone comes along and makes us feel a spark, a sign of life and we think...ah ha, it wasn't me. It was us, it was our broken marriage. Look how happy I am now....look, I'm alive again.

 

Again, not true for all waywards, my truth.

 

Did you feel comfortable knowing that what you were doing may terminate your marriage?

[Selfish]

Did you feel comfortable knowing that what you were doing may terminate your marriage?

 

I can't answer for rainbow but why is it so hard for people to get that there are those of "us" (maybe not rainbow but me and others) that never thought they would be discovered. Never accepted any consequences would happen. Either thought we'd be forgiven, never caught, or just didn't think about that? Like being that person who speeds through a school zone as a matter of habit and never thinks about what it would be kill a child. It doesn't make it okay or right to have an affair. And then there is also thinking you know how something would be (divorce wouldn't be so bad) and the reality of it (OMG, I can't believe I am losing them).

 

There is a liberating feeling in not worrying about consequences of your actions. YOLO. But that is not reality. And when the consequences come most people are in for a rude awakening. Seeing the actual consequences of your affair is entirely different than imagining them. Of course there are some people who don't care. And there are some who cannot handle it and run the other way, or blame shift, or do whatever to try to feel better in the moment. It is pretty soul crushing to accept full blame for such a widely detested act.

[DbleBetrayal]

I can't answer for rainbow but why is it so hard for people to get that there are those of "us" (maybe not rainbow but me and others) that never thought they would be discovered. Never accepted any consequences would happen. Either thought we'd be forgiven, never caught, or just didn't think about that? Like being that person who speeds through a school zone as a matter of habit and never thinks about what it would be kill a child. It doesn't make it okay or right to have an affair. And then there is also thinking you know how something would be (divorce wouldn't be so bad) and the reality of it (OMG, I can't believe I am losing them).

 

There is a liberating feeling in not worrying about consequences of your actions. YOLO. But that is not reality. And when the consequences come most people are in for a rude awakening. Seeing the actual consequences of your affair is entirely different than imagining them. Of course there are some people who don't care. And there are some who cannot handle it and run the other way, or blame shift, or do whatever to try to feel better in the moment. It is pretty soul crushing to accept full blame for such a widely detested act.

 

 

I am pretty sure you are not unique in your thinking- I'm sure all cheaters thought they'd never get caught and as just as many cheaters went about YOLO-ing it. In fact, that's the hallmark of a cheater. Or else they would just discuss being in an open relationship or separating wouldn't they, or even communicate what they want.

[2.50 a gallon]

jm2013

 

 

Crazy, you mean not everyone has seen a UFO or given a ghost a ride?

 

 

No I did not hit on them. The truth is my Ex set me up. My Ex was quite brazen, and prior to our separation, she had, at a party with my co-workers, shared some of the details of our sex life with one of them. After we became friends, it was she who bluntly asked me one day if I really liked performing oral sex. My co-worker was in her 30's, with her 40's on the near horizon, it was something her husband refused to do with her, and she wanted to experience it at least once in her life. Women talk and it was not long until another co-worker hit on me.

[Rainbowlove]

Did you feel comfortable knowing that what you were doing may terminate your marriage?

 

I've been giving this question a lot of thought. Did I feel comfortable knowing what I was doing may terminate my marriage? Truthfully, no. I never felt comfortable at any point in my life once it started to spiral out of control and the spiraling happened the very second I admitted I had developed feelings for my AP.

 

My AP was someone I met at work. She was new to the area, from the West coast, married to a man for over two decades, had a handful of children (older) and held a high level position in a church. I don't think anyone could have predicted we would have fallen for each other. She had no idea she was suppressing her lesbianism for 45 years and she was truly shocked and devastated by discovering that part of herself knowing it meant the end of her marriage and life as she knew it to be.

 

Until this happened to me, I had never heard of the term emotional affair. I never had any reason to doubt myself. I never thought I had the capacity to care for someone other than my wife, let alone be physical her. I thought I knew myself better. I thought I had better boundaries and judgement than I did. I grew up in a home where no one was faithful, so I made it a point to be just the opposite. I loathed cheaters. I thought they were flawed people with no morals and no character. I'm sure there are many here who will agree with that statement and they have good reasons to believe it.

 

My affair was extremely public and out in the open for all eyes to witness. Everyone in our lives knows of it; in laws, friends, neighbors, community, co-workers, extended family.

 

Did I ever feel comfortable? No, never. I didn't know how to get myself out of the mess I created. Once I was deep in it, I felt there was no turning back. I didn't think I could ever feel the same about my wife. I didn't think she could ever forgive me. I didn't think anyone could forgive me. I didn't know how to break my AP's heart and how to live with leaving her. I was in constant turmoil and chaos. I no longer recognized myself or my life. I didn't eat. I didn't sleep. I couldn't work. I was having anxiety and panic attacks. I was a royal mess. My quiet, peaceful life had turned into a Jerry Springer episode or a Life Time Original Movie at my own doing. I felt trapped to be honest.

 

Maybe some waywards feel liberated (as someone else said). I did not. I felt horrible and hated who I had become as a person.

[Arieswoman]

My WS (exH) exhibited characteristics of others on this thread.

 

He was quiet, shy, lacked confidence in social situations, but was very confident at work where he was a manager. Didn't like socialising/going to parties/meeting new people, never liked me entertaining at home (used to go out when i had friends around ! ). No close friends. Couldn't talk about his feelings, sulky, sometimes for days. He was a conflict-avoider, yet his ego was as big as the Empire State Building.

 

He was manipulative. Took ages getting any decorating done and then said " The house isn't ready for having anyone round" to stop me having company.

 

His affair was with a subordinate at work who was having problems with her fiance at the same time as her mother (who she lived with) was divorcing her 2nd husband for cruelty.

He told me after the divorce that he had seen his own mother threaten to hit his father with a hammer.

I never realised how low his self-esteem was and how broken and needy he was.

 

I divorced him to let him have this 'wonderful' women he thought he wanted. They are still together because they are alike - both broken, needy and cheats !

[Arieswoman]

Wallstreeter,

 

But an even greater predictor was the personality trait of narcissism—a personality cluster defined by the attributes of being self-centered , grandiose, and exhibitionistic, feeling a strong sense of entitlement , arrogance, and being interpersonally exploitative.

 

That was my exH to a T - except I didn't see it at the time...

[fellini]

Esther Perel has an interesting chapter in her book "Mating in Captivity" (reconciling the erotic and the domestic) about what she calls the "shadow of the third", and I think this has a lot in common with other comments here about "boundaries". Yes of course we have to "watch our boundaries", but the boundaries are seductive. If we look at some of the stories of WS here, (my WS story isn't here, but it fits) we can see that there is an attraction to and flirting with these boundaries, especially at work. The thing about work is you have a safety net - your work - to fall back into - and there is always the "just being friends" excuse to test and expand and test and push these boundaries, always telling "yourself" (the WS) that you have the boundaries under control.

 

When Elaine mentioned Dopamine we are essentially talking about the same thing using different fields (Dopamine, boundaries, shadow of the third) these all interact in a soon to be wayward. If someone isnt paying heed to the chemical changes that are going on, if they continually redifine the boundaries of "acceptable" workplace behaviours (all the while expanding them for a higher injection of "cocaine high", and if they still need the shadow of the third to define themselves in their present monogamous relationship, then they can easily - what was earlier called "the stars in the right alignment" - push the envelope past the point of no return.

 

And I think when this happens, Glass says it best. A first kiss takes place. WS goes home and sees the world hasn't crashed beneath his/her feet, that all is well and no one can read the signs... so next day thinks, hey, I can continue to do this. And as she, I believe rightly points out: Getting from the kiss to sex is much easier than getting to that first kiss.

 

 

 

it's called triangulation and happens often in relationships, not just affairs....

 

There is the victim and rescuer and these two roles are interchangeable. The third role is persecutor and is always occupied by the unknowing BS. The more the BS are vilified, the stronger the bond can grow between the victim and the rescuer.