Having a very difficult time...

December 17, 2014

To this very instant I question myself and if there was anything, anything at all, I could have done to make her happy and to just love me and us being together. That is all I ever wanted was just for her to be happy with us and what we had together. If she had have been happy with just us I would have given her anything in the world she wanted.

I think these sentences speak to the fundamental nature of borderline/codependent relationships. The borderlines is plagued by a pervasive pattern of instability, emptiness, ongoing need for external validation to bolster the lacking sense of self-worth. These needs are often expressed through uncontrolled emotional responses, but are also incorporated into day-to-day expectations, with blame and responsibility being projected onto the codependent partner. The borderline is saying, it's all your fault that I'm not happy, and the fact that I'm not is evidence that you aren't holding up your end of the agreement... you're a bad person for having let me down. To the borderline it's obvious that the problem is the the partner. It's a defense mechanism that serves to repress the intolerable feelings of fallibility within. They outsource responsibility for how they feel to the codependent.

A codependent is the yen for their yang... an appeaser, agreeable, willing to enter into the contract, assume responsibility for providing them with a stronger sense of self, guaranteeing their eternal happiness. And someone to blame and focus their anger upon when that pervasive emptiness overtakes. A good codependent willingly assumes the role, subjugates his own needs to appease. He has soft boundaries and is willing to dedicate his existence to maintaining equilibrium in the relationship at any cost. The cost ends up being his own sense of self, goals and dreams, and autonomy. He is destined to fail because one cannot bestow happiness upon another, and especially a borderline. And the borderline, with that pervasive emptiness and little ability to give, will make sure the codependent feels like the complete failure he is for not having upheld his end of the bargain.

December 17, 2014

In fact I got the feeling both of you were in some kind of difficult dance where to much intimacy would always lead to avoidance with one of you both, again and again and again. I can't put my finger on it as I do not know if it was her that made you keep asking for space or that it also was you? I can be wrong, but the guilt that you described or the things you mentioned about the children seemed to be masking something else, perhaps some kind of fear deep within you? I am interested if you recognize this?

Pascoe thank you for your long answer to me. I have no doubt that you meant what you wrote and as I said I am really sorry for you. Still as others said after me, in my second question I asked of you recognized what I said about what seems avoidant behaviour on your side that read I in your story? I agree with others that 14 years is a really long time. It also appears as if you needed space after making promises of closeness during those years.

December 17, 2014

Wow... Thanks everyone on the views and insight. The points raised are definitely things to ponder.

One avenue I had not considered is the "trust issue" raised by "Blue Iris". I never thought she would "cheat" on me and never considered it to be an issue. I guess the lack of "trust" on my behalf was whether, or not, she was in the relationship "for the long haul". I questioned it due to the times she would say she wanted to break up. I am not in any way insinuating that I was not free of saying the same to her at times. I am also not that saying such a thing was excusable by any means on my behalf but sometimes it was the only way I could get her to just "stop" the arguing. For example, when we would talk on the phone and she would want to discuss an issue at a time that was not convenient for me. If I did not agree to discuss the issue right then and there I would be attacked. Recently I discussed this issue regarding the "phone arguments" with my counselor and was advised I should have set a "boundary". The counselor suggested I should have told her something like "unfortunately, I do not understand what you are trying to tell me and I need more time to have this discussion. I care about your thoughts and feelings but I will not allow you to speak to me in this manner. I will call you as soon as I have more time and we can discuss this when we both are calmer. I love you."

Also, I have not mentioned to anyone, other than my counselor and obviously the folks on this board, my suspicion as to whether, or not, she suffers from BPD.

December 17, 2014

Pascoe thank you for your long answer to me. I have no doubt that you meant what you wrote and as I said I am really sorry for you. Still as others said after me, in my second question I asked of you recognized what I said about what seems avoidant behaviour on your side that read I in your story? I agree with others that 14 years is a really long time. It also appears as if you needed space after making promises of closeness during those years.

I don't believe that I needed "space" so to speak. If anything I believe it was just the opposite. I told her on many occasions "I want our relationship to be as if we are married right now". I would suggest to her that we needed to do more things together as a family, that she could move in with me any time, that if it was her choice not to move in then I wanted her to treat my house as if it is "our" house that she could come and go as she pleased. I wanted the majority of our "problems" worked out before getting married. She would then suggest that getting married was the "answer" to working out our problems. I just could not fully buy into that logic...

Hell, maybe I should have just gone into it and thrown "caution to the wind" and followed my heart and not me head...

December 17, 2014

It is good that you are talking to a counsellor!

Edit: I see you posted when I was writing this answer. I still have to read it.

December 17, 2014

I wanted the majority of our "problems" worked out before getting married. She would then suggest that getting married was the "answer" to working out our problems. I just could not fully buy into that logic...

Still find it hard it get a full picture, but what you write here sounds like the just choice.

December 18, 2014

I guess the lack of "trust" on my behalf was whether, or not, she was in the relationship "for the long haul". I questioned it due to the times she would say she wanted to break up.

Pascoe, if she has strong BPD traits, she is incapable of trusting you for any extended period. One reason is that BPDers have great difficulty seeing "object constancy." It therefore is difficult for them to believe that other people have essentially the same personality from day to day or week to week. This is largely why they can perceive you as the savior one week and as the perpetrator the next.

I mention this because, if your Ex was incapable of trusting you, you had to know that YOU could never truly trust HER. You quickly learned that she could turn on you with a vengence at any time -- and had done so many times. You therefore would have been a fool to trust her sufficiently to be willing to go through with the wedding. I therefore believe you chose wisely.

December 18, 2014

Look,bro..People can sit here and 'internet shrink' your ex ALL DAY! What does that change? Shes gone! Whether she or you had issues? Does not matter! Gone..Not setting around trying to wrap her head around, WHY?...GONE! So is mine..sorry. Just facts.

December 18, 2014

Oh what a tangle web we weave when first we practice to deceive. This relationship started just the way it ended- full of drama, deception etc.

I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. You can't build a house on sand my friend.

I'm sorry for your pain and hopefully you learned the lesson this experience was brought to teach you.

Let her go and find happiness within yourself.

December 26, 2014

I know everyone who has participated in this thread has directly or indirectly advised against reconciling with my ex. I do believe and believed when reading the responses this is/was solid advice.

However, I could not just walk away from this relationship without knowing I did everything humanly possible to make it work. Over the past few months since the breakup I have been reading everything possible regarding relationships, communication problems with relationships and just in general how to make relationships work as well as seeing a counselor. I have to confess I have learned a great, great deal and recognize the things I did wrong that lead to the demise of the relationship with my ex. I also recognize that I am not a "changed person" but one who has a better grasp on how to communicate with others. I realize that it takes much effort every single day to show your significant other how you feel about them and how much you care. Of most importance I realize that it also takes two to make it work.

One week ago I sent an e-mail to my ex detailing everything that I felt I did was wrong in the relationship. I did not tell her that I had changed but told her it was a process that I felt very confident with and was willing to do what was needed to make her feel secure, loved and supported. I told her that I wanted to be married to her as I had no desire to be with anyone else but her. In the past she had mentioned going to the "justice of the peace" just so we could be married. I researched all of the available avenues for marriage in our area and all of the dates available. The earliest being 12/29. I told her that I was sure this is was I WANTED. For those who have followed this thread it is always what I have wanted. I just wanted to work on the flaws in the relationship and get the necessary compromises in place before being married. I told her I wanted her name on the deed of the house so she would feel this was truly her home, I wanted her and her kids on my health insurance (my employer pays for my health insurance so it only makes financial sense for all of us to be on that policy), I wanted both of our names on the bank accounts and wanted to make her a beneficiary on my life insurance policy.

Two hours after sending the e-mail I sent her a text asking if she received my e-mail. The following day I received a text from her saying "yes and I need some time to process it". I responded with "take your time. I will be here. I love you."

She was away on an assignment for work on the other side of the country and I knew she would be returning home on Christmas Eve. I did not try to contact her any further as I wanted to give her the time to think over everything I said in the e-mail as well as the fact I wanted to be married, did the research for the available times and provided her with the dates of when we could have the ceremony.

She knows that on Christmas day I go to my ex-wife's house. I meet my mother there so that we can spend the day with my kids. Around 9 am I receive a text from her saying "Merry Christmas to you and the kids and your mom". I responded with the text "Merry Christmas to you and the kids. The kids and my Mom miss you very much. I have gifts for you and the kids". She responded with "you didn't have to do that". To which I responded "your children are every bit as important to me as my own and I want them to know that I love and care about them".

Around 8 pm I receive a text from her saying "I think there was more than enough time for any reasonable person to give for that to be shown". To which I replied "I agree but all I can do is try to make it right from this moment forward and in the future". To which she replies "I am not willing to take that risk again sorry".

This is exactly how the relationship ALWAYS went... Every time I would give her what she "wanted" she didn't want it. She would constantly talk about wanting to get married. I would say "Ok, lets get married" and she would then say "I don't want it to be like I am forcing you into it". I would then tell her "Ok, then stop bringing it up and let me bring it up". Of course in a few days to a couple of weeks she would be right back to talking about getting married. I was in a "no win" situation - I was damned if I didn't bring it up and then damned if I said "Ok lets get married".

I am now free to move on. I have done everything and offered her everything she has said she ever wanted. I guess I knew this is how it would end up because NOTHING I ever did was good enough or "when" she wanted it. Was it within her "time frame"? No, but if you love someone and want to be with them then who cares?

I have blocked every single way she would have of contacting me. I hope she finds whatever it is she is looking for but I have a feeling she will never be happy with however she ends up.

December 26, 2014

The only difference between now and being married to her was that not only would she leave with my heart but also with half of my assets.

Pascoe, this statement was written not by a respondent but, rather by YOU. Yet, despite your belief that she seems to have strong BPD traits, you went ahead and proposed marrying her this month and putting her name on the house deed. I am simply speechless!

December 26, 2014

Well at least you gave it your best shot.

Sorry that he didn't work out as you had hoped. Maybe it truely is for the best. You really don't to continue living life like this with her. Things really don't need to be this complicated. This isn't on you but on her, who she is as a person and how she operates.

Close this painful chapter in your life and move on!

I hope that your healing and recovering is a speedy one. Take care of yourself.

December 26, 2014

Pascoe, this statement was written not by a respondent but, rather by YOU. Yet, despite your belief that she seems to have strong BPD traits, you went ahead and proposed marrying her this month and putting her name on the house deed. I am simply speechless!

Downtown... I know and am aware of writing that previously. I just had to know that I had truly done everything to try to please her. I have read regarding BPD relationships that they "sometimes" do work out. After reading that there is sometimes hope with working relationships with a person with BPD I was willing to give it a shot and went into with the realization that it would not be easy and would be constant work on my behalf.

December 26, 2014

Well at least you gave it your best shot.

Sorry that he didn't work out as you had hoped. Maybe it truely is for the best. You really don't to continue living life like this with her. Things really don't need to be this complicated. This isn't on you but on her, who she is as a person and how she operates.

Close this painful chapter in your life and move on!

I hope that your healing and recovering is a speedy one. Take care of yourself.

Thanks lil hoodlum... Like I mentioned to Downtown I had to give it one last shot putting everything "out there" she had ever ask of me and then some.

The chapter is closed. Any and every way she would have of communicating with me is blocked.

It really helped too with the way it was done as it pisses me off. Her text in the morning to wish me and my family a Merry Christmas to later that evening texting that she "can't take that risk again". After 14 years it was in the form of a text...

December 26, 2014

Downtown... I just had to know that I had truly done everything to try to please her.

What troubles me, Pascoe, is that you had 14 years' experience in trying to please her and had seen hundreds of times that -- no matter which decision you made -- it was always lose-lose. There was no way to please her.

I have read regarding BPD relationships that they "sometimes" do work out.

Yes, "sometimes" as in "perhaps 1 in 100." And, in the very unlikely event you were dating one of those 1 percent, you would have seen her confront her issues and start to work hard on them at some time during that 14 years.

After reading that there is sometimes hope with working relationships with a person with BPD I was willing to give it a shot and went into with the realization that it would not be easy and would be constant work on my behalf.

If she has strong BPD traits as you suspect, "giving it a shot" and "constant work on your behalf" WON'T MAKE A DENT in the problem. As I noted earlier, you are always in a lose/lose position because a BPDer's two fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you move close to her to assure her of your love and devotion, you will trigger her engulfment fear -- making her feel suffocated and controlled by you. That's when she will start projecting that scary feeling onto you, with the result that -- at a conscious level -- she will be convinced YOU are the source of the scary feelings.

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you unavoidably will be drawing close to triggering her abandonment fear. The result will be the push-you-away (when she feels engulfed) and pull-you-back (when she feels abandoned) that you saw for 14 years.

I mention this to you again because, given your excessive caregiver nature, you now are at risk of running right into the arms of another woman just like the one you left. Caregivers like us are prone to walk right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING) until we find one who desperately needs us. This is why we go hunting for women who are masters at projecting vulnerability, which is "catnip" to us.

If you doubt this, simply watch any film with Marilyn Monroe in it. You likely will find yourself quickly developing a crush on her before the movie ends. Marilyn had the ability to make vulnerability leap off the movie screen. That's the type of woman you likely are strongly attracted to. If so, you're setting yourself up for another train wreck. Marilyn suffered from full-blown BPD if her biographers are correct.

December 26, 2014

What troubles me, Pascoe, is that you had 14 years' experience in trying to please her and had seen hundreds of times that -- no matter which decision you made -- it was always lose-lose. There was no way to please her.

Yes, "sometimes" as in "perhaps 1 in 100." And, in the very unlikely event you were dating one of those 1 percent, you would have seen her confront her issues and start to work hard on them at some time during that 14 years.

If she has strong BPD traits as you suspect, "giving it a shot" and "constant work on your behalf" WON'T MAKE A DENT in the problem. As I noted earlier, you are always in a lose/lose position because a BPDer's two fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you move close to her to assure her of your love and devotion, you will trigger her engulfment fear -- making her feel suffocated and controlled by you. That's when she will start projecting that scary feeling onto you, with the result that -- at a conscious level -- she will be convinced YOU are the source of the scary feelings.

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you unavoidably will be drawing close to triggering her abandonment fear. The result will be the push-you-away (when she feels engulfed) and pull-you-back (when she feels abandoned) that you saw for 14 years.

I mention this to you again because, given your excessive caregiver nature, you now are at risk of running right into the arms of another woman just like the one you left. Caregivers like us are prone to walk right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING) until we find one who desperately needs us. This is why we go hunting for women who are masters at projecting vulnerability, which is "catnip" to us.

If you doubt this, simply watch any film with Marilyn Monroe in it. You likely will find yourself quickly developing a crush on her before the movie ends. Marilyn had the ability to make vulnerability leap off the movie screen. That's the type of woman you likely are strongly attracted to. If so, you're setting yourself up for another train wreck. Marilyn suffered from full-blown BPD if her biographers are correct.

Downtown... You are exactly 110% correct. How she "needed" me was intoxicating and made me feel as if I were her hero. At least during the first stages of the relationship...

You mentioning the "push pull" also brings back a few memories... It is funny how I am now recalling more and more of the "no win" situations I was put in by her. When she would give me ultimatums regarding marriage I would say to her "fine, we will get married" on such and such date. She would then say "I don't want to force you into it and I want you to want marriage". To which I would reply "then back off about it, don't give me an ultimatum and we will get there". Typically within a week or so she would be right back to bringing up getting married... I know that is not exactly the "push pull" you are referring to but just another example of there was no way for me to do anything "correct" in her eyes.

December 27, 2014

I'm sorry for your loss, actually, all of the heartache that you have endured, and there has been many. It's hard for me to comprehend the general dynamics of your relationship, let alone, that it was your reality for fourteen years. But I'm not you, so I'm not judging your choices.

I couldn't ignore the totalities of the issues that seemed to mount, and plague your relationship from day one: the trust issues that morphed in to insecurities, to the back and forth; one of you being present, while the other was not, the debit/credit merit system used to extract the number of points that a person's value might have earned for that day; and again, for fourteen years. I'm a little shocked at the duration and that you hung in there as long as you did.

However, there is no way that I want you to believe that I, or anyone else , is dismissing the hurt or confusion that consumes you right now. Please understand that I'm very sensitive to your pain that has brought you to your knees, as I'm sure most of the posters on your thread have been. It all sucks, no matter what you had to maneuver through to be together, or why you put up with it, or what you were thinking would happen by staying; but you did, so end of story.

There had to be some very good reasons that you would constantly put forth your most stellar of efforts to keep the relationship alive. That is your business and I respect that.

For what it's worth, you took several risks and remained dedicated to your cause; no one can ever accuse you of being a quitter.

I think you truly fought a good fight with her, you gave it your all, you gambled even though the odds were stacked against you. However, I feel that you have no other choice now, but to fold. Convince yourself that, it is what it is, then try to accept that things just didn't work out. Put all of your energy that you had been spending on saving your relationship, towards the efforts it's going to take for you to move on, and away from her.

And by the way, your last comment about how you hope that some day she'll find the happiness that she's looking to find. Trust me, that day is never, ever going to come, or ever happen, because she wouldn't recognize it if it did.

And if by some miraculous chance of a circumstance finds her, and brings her some true happiness, like you mentioned, she'll never be able to sustain it for any length of time.

Your ex simply lacks the intrinsic fortitude that a person needs to work through the emotional conflicts that all relationships encounter. Which means to me, what a rational and emotionally heathy adult would use to handle like situations. Instead of, as you have explained throughout your posts, the type of criteria that one would expect to see a teenage girl would acess when a decision is made for which boy she'll choose as her date for the prom.

December 27, 2014

Downtown... You are exactly 110% correct. How she "needed" me was intoxicating and made me feel as if I were her hero. At least during the first stages of the relationship...

You mentioning the "push pull" also brings back a few memories... It is funny how I am now recalling more and more of the "no win" situations I was put in by her. When she would give me ultimatums regarding marriage I would say to her "fine, we will get married" on such and such date. She would then say "I don't want to force you into it and I want you to want marriage". To which I would reply "then back off about it, don't give me an ultimatum and we will get there". Typically within a week or so she would be right back to bringing up getting married... I know that is not exactly the "push pull" you are referring to but just another example of there was no way for me to do anything "correct" in her eyes.

Sounds like a nightmare for having to go through this over and over and over again.

How do you feel now that you won't have to be going through all of this anymore?

December 27, 2014