Is trying to look muscular without using steroids unrealistic for me?

[JohnnyRico]

I've been going to the gym and trying to look better for around 9 months now, I've had some time off with a couple of injuries but otherwise been consistent. I've gained 25lbs in total and not seen any great change in body fat levels. I don't look much different though, its like I've spent 9 months going from very skinny to somewhat skinny.

 

Here's a link with some pictures - Gsrgdgbnfg Photos by ASOIAF91 | Photobucket

 

I was around 150lbs when I started in March, reached 170lbs by July, I'm now at 175lbs. My progress has really slowed down without me getting anywhere near where I want to be. Partly due to injuries interfering but I think its predominantly that I've exhausted my 'noob gains' and will likely have a much slower progress than in the first 4 months or so.

 

I don't think my body looks bad, or that I have small amounts of muscle, in fact I'd say I'm definitely above average in both regards. Its more that as soon as I put a shirt on over my body I look like I don't even work out at all, I may as well just be skinny fat, so having this body isn't going to help me attract women, which is why I started going to the gym in the first place. I think a big part of it is how narrow my shoulders are, I feel like I won't stop looking skinny unless I have far more muscle to compensate for that.

 

Any thoughts?

[FitChick]

You look fine. Wear tighter shirts.

[Be_Strong]

FitChick is right. You need to wear fitted clothing that accentuates your athletic build. If you have weak spots in your figure (such as narrow shoulders) try to really target those muscles in your work out routine.

[JDPT]

It's years and years of training just like anything. It won't happen overnight.

[deathandtaxes]

A lot of guys don't really look like they work out at all unless they wear VERY tight shirts. And then you know that they're only trying to show off. Workout for yourself and how you feel. Let your body be a pleasant surprise to a special someone, not something that you have to shout to the heavens.

 

 

Putting on 20lbs in nine months is a good deal on a previously 150lb frame. You look fine man.

[dichotomy]

You look very well defined, but not bulky muscular. I would say this look is more popular with women than say looking like "the rock" Dwayne Johnson.

 

There are different methods for lifting and working out. Power lifting, strength training, and body building. This along with protein and supplements also give different results on body appearance.

 

9 months is nothing -but your results so far look good to me.

 

But if your asking if you can get really huge (like pro's) without steroids - not so easy.

[Andy_K]

You're doing pretty well. To put things in perspective, It's taken me a year to gain about 16 lbs.

 

There are a number of calculators out there you can use to figure out your maximum muscular potential, based on height and frame size (typically measured by wrists and ankles) this will give you an approximate 'ceiling' so you know what it possible for your physique and what isn't. You will know what your maximum lean weight is likely to be, and you can then set your goals appropriately.

 

If you've got a frame on the smaller side, like me, you're never going to look big or buff in a jumper. Tight fitting teeshirts will show off your physique though, and if it's female attention you're looking for, you'll get it.

[JohnnyRico]

You look fine. Wear tighter shirts.

 

I wear tightish clothing already, about the best I can get away with without looking like I'm wearing spandex.

 

Fine would be alright if I was aiming for fine, I'm aiming for good though lol. I don't want to be acceptable, I want to be noticeably better than 95% of guys, to make up for where I lack elsewhere.

 

 

 

FitChick is right. You need to wear fitted clothing that accentuates your athletic build. If you have weak spots in your figure (such as narrow shoulders) try to really target those muscles in your work out routine.

 

I definitely don't wear baggy clothing. I guess I can try doing more for my shoulders and chest though, since they are what lacks the most I think.

 

 

 

It's years and years of training just like anything. It won't happen overnight.

 

I guess.. Knowing I'll have to wait years feels awful though. And what if I put in 3 years of work, then don't get to where I want to be anyway?

 

 

 

A lot of guys don't really look like they work out at all unless they wear VERY tight shirts. And then you know that they're only trying to show off. Workout for yourself and how you feel. Let your body be a pleasant surprise to a special someone, not something that you have to shout to the heavens.

 

 

Putting on 20lbs in nine months is a good deal on a previously 150lb frame. You look fine man.

 

I guess they don't, which is why I believe it will really help me if I can make it to that level, I need to shout it to the heavens, to make up for where I lack elsewhere. I enjoy working out, but if I can't become more attractive to women through doing it, I'd rather just play sport.

 

 

 

You look very well defined, but not bulky muscular. I would say this look is more popular with women than say looking like "the rock" Dwayne Johnson.

 

There are different methods for lifting and working out. Power lifting, strength training, and body building. This along with protein and supplements also give different results on body appearance.

 

9 months is nothing -but your results so far look good to me.

 

But if your asking if you can get really huge (like pro's) without steroids - not so easy.

 

It might be more popular when looking at topless photos, bigger guys definitely have the advantage when actually meeting women though. There's a few possible reasons for this, the camera adds 10lbs, nobody can see abs/definition through clothes making you appear skinny/skinny-fat/average rather than athletic and just bigger guys appearing more dominant/having greater presence which isn't picked up on in pictures.

 

I don't want to get as big as The Rock or a pro bodybuilder, probably more towards the smaller end of male fitness models.

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BdQujkp6D2o/Un5TNYhAgLI/AAAAAAAAROM/pVJhBOy_kv8/s1600/Marc+Fitt-+Male+Fitness+Model+(2).jpg

 

http://malefitnessmodels.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-male-model-9-ivanrusilko.jpg

 

Around those physiques would be what I'd like to achieve I guess. Its hard to say exactly though.

 

 

 

You're doing pretty well. To put things in perspective, It's taken me a year to gain about 16 lbs.

 

There are a number of calculators out there you can use to figure out your maximum muscular potential, based on height and frame size (typically measured by wrists and ankles) this will give you an approximate 'ceiling' so you know what it possible for your physique and what isn't. You will know what your maximum lean weight is likely to be, and you can then set your goals appropriately.

 

If you've got a frame on the smaller side, like me, you're never going to look big or buff in a jumper. Tight fitting teeshirts will show off your physique though, and if it's female attention you're looking for, you'll get it.

 

Tight fitting t shirts aren't enough to make me look big or muscular. I just look skinny.

 

Do you know where I could find those weight estimates? I don't really know what to search for lol.

[Imported]

You look fine. Wear tighter shirts.

 

 

But not too tight. Try different t-shirts/shirts and see which cut/fabric lays best on you.

 

You should try to look your best, but it's even more important to look like you're not trying.

[Andy_K]

I don't want to get as big as The Rock or a pro bodybuilder, probably more towards the smaller end of male fitness models.

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BdQujkp6D2o/Un5TNYhAgLI/AAAAAAAAROM/pVJhBOy_kv8/s1600/Marc+Fitt-+Male+Fitness+Model+(2).jpg

 

http://malefitnessmodels.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-male-model-9-ivanrusilko.jpg

 

Around those physiques would be what I'd like to achieve I guess. Its hard to say exactly though.

 

Do you know where I could find those weight estimates? I don't really know what to search for lol.

 

Firstly, realise that those fitness models are a lot bigger than they look. That sort of physique is around the top end of what it's possible to achieve naturally. I'm not saying they've done it naturally themselves, but if you do, realise that getting that much muscle with such a low bodyfat is not a modest goal - it's about the limit of what 90% of guys are even capable of.

 

For size/weight potential estimates, use this: The WeighTrainer - Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements Calculator

 

It isn't exact... depending on your genetics your results may vary slightly, but it will give you a very good approximation.

[Emilia]

Be careful OP, those photos were taken using professional lighting, probably photoshopped to a degree. Those guys don't always look like that, they cut fat before their shoots.

 

You are doing very well, don't turn into a meathead obsessing over the smallest thing please. Very easy to get caught up in chasing the 'perfect physique' (which is subjective). I'm sure you don't like women that spend hours in front of the mirror preening themselves, make sure you don't turn into that guy.

[thefooloftheyear]

Pics look fine...

 

Not everyone is genetically gifted to become really big, Im not sure if thats what you are looking for?....Steroids or GH wont even help...Heck, look around your gym...Chances are that at least 10% or maybe more are already juicing...Most of those guys will NEVER get within the same universe of someeone like Phil Heath or Flex Lewis...I dont care what they do or how much they take..

 

Forget about all of the claims of size increases...99% orf it is bullshyt..Nearly everyone is just like you, to a degree..Most people make the most gains they ever will in the first 6-12 months of training..After that, putting on quality lean muscle mass is an arduously slow and very difficult process..Even gifted people are thrilled to put on 6-8 lbs of lean muscle in an entire year of hard training and a regimented diet and rest...Most of the guys that claimed they put on more, have taken on some fat at the same time..Even if they think they didnt..

 

Just keep pounding the rock and be the best you can be...

 

TFY

[bebe23]

I want to be noticeably better than 95% of guys, to make up for where I lack elsewhere.

 

Where? It seems you have your priorities mixed up. How about exercising that muscle between your ears to develop a sense of humor, warm personality, charm, etc? Most women aren't looking for the Rock. I'm more for 'eyes, smile and laugh' when it comes to men and actually prefer slim/lanky or chubby guys to muscleheads. Probably because of negative stereotypes.

 

(Not that you shouldn't lift if you enjoy it.)

[JohnnyRico]

Firstly, realise that those fitness models are a lot bigger than they look. That sort of physique is around the top end of what it's possible to achieve naturally. I'm not saying they've done it naturally themselves, but if you do, realise that getting that much muscle with such a low bodyfat is not a modest goal - it's about the limit of what 90% of guys are even capable of.

 

For size/weight potential estimates, use this: The WeighTrainer - Maximum Muscular Bodyweight and Measurements Calculator

 

It isn't exact... depending on your genetics your results may vary slightly, but it will give you a very good approximation.

 

So if I wanted to achieve that, preferably within 2 years at the most, I should probably look into using steroids? I'm not particularly against doing so, if it would make my goals more attainable.

 

And thanks for the link.

 

 

 

Be careful OP, those photos were taken using professional lighting, probably photoshopped to a degree. Those guys don't always look like that, they cut fat before their shoots.

 

You are doing very well, don't turn into a meathead obsessing over the smallest thing please. Very easy to get caught up in chasing the 'perfect physique' (which is subjective). I'm sure you don't like women that spend hours in front of the mirror preening themselves, make sure you don't turn into that guy.

 

I actually wouldn't even mind being that sort of build, but at the body fat I am now, so a little more fat than that for most the year wouldn't be an issue.

 

I'm not doing well though, since I'm not getting the results I wanted. And for what its worth I'd prefer a woman who spends hours in front of the mirror and looks good, to one that doesn't put in much effort and looks bad. Maybe I'm incredibly shallow but I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. I think when most people select partners physical attractiveness is much higher up the list of priorities than how much time the other person spends working on their attractiveness.

 

 

 

Pics look fine...

 

Not everyone is genetically gifted to become really big, Im not sure if thats what you are looking for?....Steroids or GH wont even help...Heck, look around your gym...Chances are that at least 10% or maybe more are already juicing...Most of those guys will NEVER get within the same universe of someeone like Phil Heath or Flex Lewis...I dont care what they do or how much they take..

 

Forget about all of the claims of size increases...99% orf it is bullshyt..Nearly everyone is just like you, to a degree..Most people make the most gains they ever will in the first 6-12 months of training..After that, putting on quality lean muscle mass is an arduously slow and very difficult process..Even gifted people are thrilled to put on 6-8 lbs of lean muscle in an entire year of hard training and a regimented diet and rest...Most of the guys that claimed they put on more, have taken on some fat at the same time..Even if they think they didnt..

 

Just keep pounding the rock and be the best you can be...

 

TFY

 

I'm quite sure steroids would give me a much better shot at putting on decent muscle mass. Sure, you are right, I'd never look like the guys you linked, but I don't want to haha.

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there is significant scientific evidence to support steroids aiding muscle growth.

 

 

 

I want to be noticeably better than 95% of guys, to make up for where I lack elsewhere.

 

Where? It seems you have your priorities mixed up. How about exercising that muscle between your ears to develop a sense of humor, warm personality, charm, etc? Most women aren't looking for the Rock. I'm more for 'eyes, smile and laugh' when it comes to men and actually prefer slim/lanky or chubby guys to muscleheads. Probably because of negative stereotypes.

 

(Not that you shouldn't lift if you enjoy it.)

 

I'd like to point out that you don't know me, anything about how I act or about my usage of my brain (or much about brains in general it seems - they aren't muscles).

 

Where I lack elsewhere is me telling you women find me physically unattractive. I am short and ugly. This is what I'm trying to compensate for. I feel developing my body is the better way to do this, rather than telling a few jokes or trying to act like James Bond.

 

As for what you like its pretty irrelevant unless I'm specifically trying to attract you. As for what women in general like it's all quite subjective but I'd argue the following 4 statements are pretty damn true...

 

There are far more chubby/fat guys than there are girls who like fat guys.

There are more skinny/slim guys than there are girls who like skinny guys.

There are less athletic guys than there are girls who like athletic guys.

There are far less muscular guys than there are girls who like muscular guys.

 

Which is why I believe I'd be far more likely to meet attractive women open to dating me if I was muscular, or at least muscular enough that I stopped getting mistaken for a skinny guy who doesn't even work out.

Edited December 3, 2014 by JohnnyRico

[Emilia]

And for what its worth I'd prefer a woman who spends hours in front of the mirror and looks good, to one that doesn't put in much effort and looks bad. Maybe I'm incredibly shallow but I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. I think when most people select partners physical attractiveness is much higher up the list of priorities than how much time the other person spends working on their attractiveness.

well if you think there are only two categories: people spending lots of time on their apparence or zero time and look bad then yeah, good luck with finding an honest relationship.

[JohnnyRico]

well if you think there are only two categories: people spending lots of time on their apparence or zero time and look bad then yeah, good luck with finding an honest relationship.

 

Effectively they are the only two categories I have a chance of fitting in. I'd love to be able to put very little work in and look great but that is not an option. Its not for a lot of people.

[Emilia]

Effectively they are the only two categories I have a chance of fitting in. I'd love to be able to put very little work in and look great but that is not an option. Its not for a lot of people.

I'm really sorry you feel this way.

[Andy_K]

And for what its worth I'd prefer a woman who spends hours in front of the mirror and looks good, to one that doesn't put in much effort and looks bad. Maybe I'm incredibly shallow but I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way. I think when most people select partners physical attractiveness is much higher up the list of priorities than how much time the other person spends working on their attractiveness.

 

Personally I'd prefer a woman who spends hours in the gym and little time in front of the mirror. Spend enough time in the gym that it becomes part of who you are and how you live instead of just a vanity exercise, and I'd wager you'll feel the same. I'd even pick an overweight girl who works out regularly and eats healthily over a slim one who does neither.

 

Regarding steroids... yes they will make a difference. They wouldn't be so popular if they didn't. They will allow you much faster recovery times, which enables you to work out more and build more muscle. I still wouldn't recommend them though.

 

Work hard enough with what you've got and you'll look great, bad genetics or not.

[M30USA]

Lifting weights can never change your body type. It will just make you look better within your type. A skinny person will never look like a broad-shouldered strong dude no matter how much you work out. I was into this whole thing when I played baseball. I am pretty thin and have trouble gaining weight. Even at peak weight lifting, I still looked skinny when wearing normal shirts and clothes. Eventually you'll just stop caring and you'll be happy with the way you are. If you're concerned about attracting women, just realize some women prefer skinny guys.

 

How tall are you?

[nofeelings22]

Have you done everything else right?

 

Tons of protein after workouts? Boost test naturally? Proper regimin, which builds mass rather than burns calories?

 

I am naturally thin and about the same build as you. I did about 6 months of test boost (DAA) and the recovery time was amazing.

 

I loaded protein and did every other day, same muscle group and got in a shape where people think I'm big (not stupid.... just right)

 

People compliment on it and notice it. Then agsin, i weat painted on shirts. haha

[thefooloftheyear]

OP...

 

Take a few minutes and watch this video...Forget about how the guy talks or looks...He is actually making a lot of sense in what he is saying and unfortunately too many younger, less experience guys dont understand..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvnS0xXx9M

 

I dont care what anyone says...Steroids wont turn you into a monster...In fact most of the guys I see that cycle, gain some weight(mostly water) then lose it the minute they come off...Take a look at guys that were on and dont use anymore...Even pro' athletes shrink down. Are you willing to stay on forever? Have you considered the cost(and the fact that its a federal offense to even posess it)?

 

And let me say something else..And this is coming from a guy that is 5'6"(at best) and a hard(14% bf) 220...I am 100% sure that at 180 or 185 I would get way more attention from women than I do now-but for me thats not the goal as it is for you....

 

Point is Just being big wont get you anywhere with women...Being in great shape? Absolutely.....Im satisfied with the way I look/feel and for me its more about strength than size(I enjoy strength training) , I just happen to put on size easy from the type of training that suits me....

 

TFY

[Maleficent]

Your first mistake is to work out in order to attain a certain body type.

 

Work out to attain goals and have a better overall health and your body will follow.

 

Follow programs like Eat to Perform etc.

 

Working towards a certain body type will only frustrate you especially if the body type you want is not your body type at all.

[Ninjainpajamas]

I think your expectations are too high for how long you've been working out with injuries...assuming you are even eating half-right and working out in the gym properly.

 

You've put on a lot of weight too, that is not 25 pounds of muscle either in 9 months with injuries.

 

But just keep working on it and stay consistent...really just check your diet, a lot of skinnier guys have problems with that, and think they will get huge by lifting heavy weights..which doesn't work alone.

 

First off they tend to cheat to lift whatever they can lift so they're usually not even working the right muscle or even doing a complete body workout or even doing one thing too much, and secondly they're usually not taking in their protein and eating often enough.

 

Overall you seem to be doing well and met some of your goals as 25 pounds didn't go straight to your head...but it might have went to your head. Otherwise you're not doing bad and I think you're panicking over it way too much and too much in a hurry to get that ideal and magical body which is going to take time unless you're just 100 percent on top of it and going absolutely crazy over it...I honestly think you're setting yourself up for disaster and a big fall from grace with what you have gained, which you should be proud of...recognize and appreciate the changes in your body now (and trust me, I'm hard on myself and have a hard time with that)

 

I'm 6'1 200 pounds, and a decently built guy with noticeable features, nothing crazy just getting pretty fit and muscular...but I would never think to lead first with my body when it comes to women, or would expect it to magically entice interest...I would not expect women to come crawling on the floor after me, being in decent shape is enough for that.

 

I would really just get yourself away from a good fit body = p***y, you will not hang in there long enough to see the results...if you want to pick up women just try now, be normal, they don't all expect or even want fit bodies or care much...if you want to do something that will help you, learn to dance, or talk to them...do something that puts you around women...sure a good body will help you, but it's not going to do the work for you or necessarily change your life...I wouldn't say it does it for me but I feel more confident and comfortable with myself when I am in shape and my clothes fit well, but I think you're expectations need to come down a lot.

[JohnnyRico]

Lifting weights can never change your body type. It will just make you look better within your type. A skinny person will never look like a broad-shouldered strong dude no matter how much you work out. I was into this whole thing when I played baseball. I am pretty thin and have trouble gaining weight. Even at peak weight lifting, I still looked skinny when wearing normal shirts and clothes. Eventually you'll just stop caring and you'll be happy with the way you are. If you're concerned about attracting women, just realize some women prefer skinny guys.

 

How tall are you?

 

I'm sure a significant amount of women do like skinny guys, but skinny guys are everywhere, so it isn't an advantage. Whereas lots of women like muscular guys, which there aren't many of, so its an advantage when meeting women.

 

I'm like 5'8/5'9.

 

 

 

Have you done everything else right?

 

Tons of protein after workouts? Boost test naturally? Proper regimin, which builds mass rather than burns calories?

 

I am naturally thin and about the same build as you. I did about 6 months of test boost (DAA) and the recovery time was amazing.

 

I loaded protein and did every other day, same muscle group and got in a shape where people think I'm big (not stupid.... just right)

 

People compliment on it and notice it. Then agsin, i weat painted on shirts. haha

 

Well I've gotten a lot stronger and gained 25lbs without a noticeable gain in body fat, so I'd guess I've been doing the basic things right.

 

Cheers for the advice man

 

 

 

OP...

 

Take a few minutes and watch this video...Forget about how the guy talks or looks...He is actually making a lot of sense in what he is saying and unfortunately too many younger, less experience guys dont understand..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvnS0xXx9M

 

I dont care what anyone says...Steroids wont turn you into a monster...In fact most of the guys I see that cycle, gain some weight(mostly water) then lose it the minute they come off...Take a look at guys that were on and dont use anymore...Even pro' athletes shrink down. Are you willing to stay on forever? Have you considered the cost(and the fact that its a federal offense to even posess it)?

 

And let me say something else..And this is coming from a guy that is 5'6"(at best) and a hard(14% bf) 220...I am 100% sure that at 180 or 185 I would get way more attention from women than I do now-but for me thats not the goal as it is for you....

 

Point is Just being big wont get you anywhere with women...Being in great shape? Absolutely.....Im satisfied with the way I look/feel and for me its more about strength than size(I enjoy strength training) , I just happen to put on size easy from the type of training that suits me....

 

TFY

 

I know genetics play a huge role in what is possible. The reality is though, when comparing against myself, I'll look better if I work out than if I don't and I'll look better if I artificially boost my test levels than if I don't.

 

Also, what do you mean by being in great shape is attractive to women but being big isn't? What is great shape for a male if not muscular?

 

 

 

I think your expectations are too high for how long you've been working out with injuries...assuming you are even eating half-right and working out in the gym properly.

 

You've put on a lot of weight too, that is not 25 pounds of muscle either in 9 months with injuries.

 

But just keep working on it and stay consistent...really just check your diet, a lot of skinnier guys have problems with that, and think they will get huge by lifting heavy weights..which doesn't work alone.

 

First off they tend to cheat to lift whatever they can lift so they're usually not even working the right muscle or even doing a complete body workout or even doing one thing too much, and secondly they're usually not taking in their protein and eating often enough.

 

Overall you seem to be doing well and met some of your goals as 25 pounds didn't go straight to your head...but it might have went to your head. Otherwise you're not doing bad and I think you're panicking over it way too much and too much in a hurry to get that ideal and magical body which is going to take time unless you're just 100 percent on top of it and going absolutely crazy over it...I honestly think you're setting yourself up for disaster and a big fall from grace with what you have gained, which you should be proud of...recognize and appreciate the changes in your body now (and trust me, I'm hard on myself and have a hard time with that)

 

I'm 6'1 200 pounds, and a decently built guy with noticeable features, nothing crazy just getting pretty fit and muscular...but I would never think to lead first with my body when it comes to women, or would expect it to magically entice interest...I would not expect women to come crawling on the floor after me, being in decent shape is enough for that.

 

I would really just get yourself away from a good fit body = p***y, you will not hang in there long enough to see the results...if you want to pick up women just try now, be normal, they don't all expect or even want fit bodies or care much...if you want to do something that will help you, learn to dance, or talk to them...do something that puts you around women...sure a good body will help you, but it's not going to do the work for you or necessarily change your life...I wouldn't say it does it for me but I feel more confident and comfortable with myself when I am in shape and my clothes fit well, but I think you're expectations need to come down a lot.

 

I do put effort into meeting women. Its a huge assumption on your part that I don't. The issue is I have no chance with attractive women. They have options and therefore aren't going to go for a short, skinny, ugly guy. I can only realistically change one of those, so that is why I am trying to. Not wanting to be cut off at hi by any woman who looks good isn't the same as thinking women should come crawling to me on the floor. I have literally no idea where you got that from.

[thefooloftheyear]

Well I've gotten a lot stronger and gained 25lbs without a noticeable gain in body fat, so I'd guess I've been doing the basic things right.

 

Cheers for the advice man

 

 

 

 

 

I know genetics play a huge role in what is possible. The reality is though, when comparing against myself, I'll look better if I work out than if I don't and I'll look better if I artificially boost my test levels than if I don't.

 

Also, what do you mean by being in great shape is attractive to women but being big isn't? What is great shape for a male if not muscular?

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

We all look and feel better when we work out..Men or women....But I am getting the feeling that you think attention from women will grow in direct proportion to size/muscularity and I can tell you(with first hand experience) that its not the case...

 

Are there some women that like a huge and roided out gym rat guy? Sure. And most of them are dopey and superficial types that think you are like their little trophy....Not exactly too appealing..

 

I dont think you will listen to anyone anyway....You have your mind made up and thats fine...Just do it and see if I am wrong... Like another poster said and Ill concur....doing this(and other stuff) with the sole intention of attracting women-will usually wind up in a a letdown...

 

TFY