At a loss...

[DRStone]

So, a few days ago posted a thread about how I'm not getting any replies from my matches and had a few good responses. I actually ended up doing an experiment to see if it's the messages I'm sending, or indeed... just my looks?

 

My original thought was that my messages were getting filtered out because I consider myself to be below average - average looks, and my highest rated matches across all 3 sites were completely out of my league.

 

Someone suggested it may actually be my profile or my messages. I have read a lot about writing a good profile and tried to follow some of the tips about what type of information to include but made it my own! Put my own somewhat whitty jokes in and tried to make it resemble me as much as possible.. So for me, it came down to the messages.

 

Since I'm 19, I don't have a great age range to go with, but I messaged 100 girls between 18 and 22, with a lot of variety. Black, white, asian, tall, short, outgoing and sociable, introverts, what I consider above average looks - below average looks and much more! I went for a complete range.

 

Some girls I used a simple "Hey, how's it going?" as someone pointed out it was the most responded to message on OK Cupid (Which is 1 of the 3 I used) and some were ever so slightly referring to their profile to let them know I read it. Others were a little bit longer and I referred to their profile 2-4 times to show that I really read into it.

 

Another thing I should point out is that I met at least 60% of the "My ideal match" criteria.

 

2 of the sights I pay for so I can tell when they've read my messages. From those 2 sites, I messaged 70 people, as of right now, 59 have read them and out of the 70 I have had ONE, yes, ONE reply. The 3rd site I messaged 30, don't know who read it, but have had TWO, yes TWO replies.

 

So all in all I have a 3/100 response rate and I refuse to believe it's down to my messages or profile as I've followed all the tips people have given me and tried all different kinds of approaches! It is 100% down to my looks and there's nothing I can do about that. I don't have many pictures as I'm not that photogenic but I gave 15 pictures to 2 friends and 5 strangers I met online (Don't ask, long story) they picked out my top 3 and funnily enough, all bar 1 person picked the same photos so I decided to use them... WHAT ELSE CAN I DO?! It's really bringing me down now and I have no idea what to do since I can't change the way I look!

 

Thank you for reading the whole damn thing and thank you for any responses in advanced!

[Mirages]

You may be drilling details and failing to see the forest on this one. If you wish to post your profile writing, a link, etc. then the forum may be better equipped to advise. Second to that, advise what personality you are trying to meet.

 

Your writing quality suggests that you are adequately intelligent and mature for a 19 year old, that is a good start.

[genuinelyloverly7]

I think your over-analyzing this one, though the nerd in me loves your stats analysis! OLD is a shifty beast, and it depends on more than just how fab your page is, or your image. Sometimes when I am down I will be very cynical in how I perceive a persons profile. "Oh, he's so hot and got so much going for him, he'll never date me. By contacting me, he must be just trolling for a**." Now, how self defeating, and really, judgmental of the other person, is that? But emotions get in the way sometimes, of common sense.

 

So I'm not saying you couldn't use a haircut or something, or a more whitty first line, but consider this. Your numbers are kinda skewed because you didn't give any consideration in your random email experiment (that I read about) to which women would like which kind of email. I personally don't like one liners because it's like you expect me to do all the talking or something, and because I put so much into my profile. I cover it all, so if you can't pull a conversation out of that or something from your own life, we won't have much to talk about.

 

OLD is hard because it is only giving you one facet of a person (the one we want you to see), and real life is so much more entangled than that. For example, "I love his 'great cooking' but he is a mess in the kitchen.' Or "Yes He is into health and fitness, so much that he runs 8 miles a day before heading over to the squash courts… before work" There is no time for sex in that schedule!

 

You need to see these facets of a person in the context of their lives. Emailing isn't the best way to judge if a person likes you or your profile. If they don't respond to a one liner, send them a longer one, with more about you and their profile. Then "if they still don't answer, I simply say….. baby, O-oh baby, oh sweet baby…. your the one." Cue guitar solo and Patrick Swayze's hair curl bobbing on his forehead...

[salparadise]

I agree with Mirages- it's hard to know without seeing the profile, and even then nobody can make an unequivocal determination.

 

Here is what I've learned after doing it a few years... a) photos matter a lot, and b) you can't appeal to everyone, so write in such a way as to target your preferred type (and don't worry about the rest), c) be both serious and humorous, and be intriguing. Attraction and the response to good writing is somewhat predictable, so use the medium to your advantage. Try different things in the written essays until you hit on something that they respond to.

 

On the photos- photos are NOT an accurate representation of reality. They are a manufactured image that can be manipulated. While there is no denying that some mugs have more inherent attraction, they aren't looking at you, they're looking at a group of pixels that have a magical way of tricking our brains even though we realize how it works. So use it to your advantage.

 

I'm no male supermodel either, but I have this pic in which I look about as good as I ever do and it was taken on a beach at sunrise. Well, women love the beach (99% say so in their profile) and in once sense they can't separate the reasons for their response to this photograph. They respond viscerally to the beach at sunrise and subconsciously apply that positive impression to me! So if even if you're not movie star material, they'll give you credit for being in a good movie.

[CaliGypsy]

Sal has a good idea and a great point.

 

Try a different picture in a different setting. It is your first impression. A lot of men don't post any photos of themselves smiling. Personally? I love a nice smile.

[Mirages]

What is a photo in OLD?

1) Subject = you in part or in whole, 2) Background scenery, 3) Balance of lighting between subject and background in both color and intensity, 4) Clothing choice, 5) Posture, 6) Variety between photos (not all hands in pockets, not all looking at camera, not all indoor or outdoor, not all dressed the same), 7) Subliminal messages: is the photo conveying a sense of humor, cockiness, insecurity, talent, prestige? 7) advanced photography: such as white balance, dynamic range limits, HDR effects, bokeh defocusing 8) Get rid of large group photos amongst 5 friends, maybe that's just me.

[PegNosePete]

So all in all I have a 3/100 response rate and I refuse to believe it's down to my messages or profile as I've followed all the tips people have given me

I guarantee you, it IS down to your profile and photos. Not your looks, but your photos. Great photos of an average guy (which most of us are) will do a lot better than bad photos of a good looking guy.

 

Let me tell you, every single guy out there thinks his own profile is the best thing since sliced bread. But 99% of them are terrible. Writing profiles is simply not an intuitive thing for many guys. They think they've written a great profile but a lot of what they wrote is simply off-putting.

 

It's hard to say any more without seeing what you've written, and on this site we have to be careful of the privacy rules. I'd recommend you make a thread on your chosen site's forums, in the profile reviews section.

[JuneJulySeptember]

I disagree.

 

I have seen a lot of profiles.

 

There ARE photos where somebody shows themselves with a smaller scale picture and they are all glammed up at a wedding and you think "Wow, she's hot." And then she has a couple of more casual pics and she's not as hot, but she's not ugly either.

 

I mean, really OP, you think some woman is going to see your 3 best pics as chosen by a lot of different people and not like them. Then, you go to a professional photographer, take glam shots and then the same woman now likes them, and this sort of procedure is going to work out and lead to a long serious relationship?

 

How many levels of shallowness are we talking about here?

 

One thing I have been trying is to look at pics of people who you think are unattractive at first glance. If you really look at them, you can kind of see attractiveness in mostly anybody. Try it.

[JuneJulySeptember]

OLD success is 99% based on your pics. The people who give you tips on sending messages and making profiles are just misleading you. Why do you think so many people have made fake profiles to check their results? I have made so many different fake profiles to try out so many different things and I learned that if you want to meet women online, what you say is almost meaningless. Just attract them with pics.

 

In light of all of this, I would never use OLD. When substance is completely ignored for a better looking pic, I know that isn't the place I want to try and find a decent woman.

 

Right. Pics based on how naturally good looking you are. I mean GOOD, NORMAL pics might swing your attractiveness 1.5 points either way but that's not a world of difference.

 

I am aware that you can take pics at certain angles that hide or de-emphasize certain facial features that make average people look like movie stars and unattractive people look cute, but then when the other person met you in person, they'd just reject you then anyway.

 

And come on here and complain about how people misrepresent themselves online.

[PegNosePete]

OLD success is 99% based on your pics.

I think of it like a horse race. Pictures are the first hurdle. You have to have good pics to get over the first hurdle. So yes, winning the race is 100% dependent on having good pics. If you have terrible pics, you will fall at the first hurdle and will not win.

 

But just because you get over the first hurdle does not mean you've won the race. Once you pass the picture test, they read your data (height, job, intent, kids, etc), profile text, and message. You still have to get over these hurdles too. Sure the picture hurdle is the first one (therefore most horses will fall here), but that doesn't mean the others are any less important. You need to get over all of them to win the race.

[salparadise]

I learned that if you want to meet women online, what you say is almost meaningless.

 

That is simply not true. Men may be fixated on the pics to the exclusion of all else, but women respond to words that resonate with them. Below are excerpts from three messages I got recently... and in each case the women initiated contact, not me. All are hot, smart, educated women that any man would be attracted to (if he's not intimidated by brainiacs). I have dates with the first two next week. I've been trying to get that first one to message me for awhile (she's local). #2 is driving a few hundred miles to visit. Anyway, such comments are not unusual.

 

You keep on telling' yourself that the message doesn't matter, and how hopeless the whole online thing really is. I'm feeling like I've found a way to scoop the cream right off the top.

 

 

"I thought that we should at least chat. Your answer to this question clinched it!"

 

"Hello ~ I really enjoyed reading your profile. Sounds like you are someone that really knows himself well - what he likes and does not. We seem to share a lot of the same values re: looking for someone..."

 

"

OMG

, I could

so

date you! I really enjoyed reading your profile. I laughed out loud at several of your answers. Also, in your profile I was thinking, 'He's looking for the same thing I'

M

looking for!'"

[JuneJulySeptember]

That is simply not true. Men may be fixated on the pics to the exclusion of all else, but women respond to words that resonate with them. Below are excerpts from three messages I got recently... and in each case the women initiated contact, not me. All are hot, smart, educated women that any man would be attracted to (if he's not intimidated by brainiacs). I have dates with the first two next week. I've been trying to get that first one to message me for awhile (she's local). #2 is driving a few hundred miles to visit. Anyway, such comments are not unusual.

 

You keep on telling' yourself that the message doesn't matter, and how hopeless the whole online thing really is. I'm feeling like I've found a way to scoop the cream right off the top.

 

 

"I thought that we should at least chat. Your answer to this question clinched it!"

 

"Hello ~ I really enjoyed reading your profile. Sounds like you are someone that really knows himself well - what he likes and does not. We seem to share a lot of the same values re: looking for someone..."

 

"

OMG

, I could

so

date you! I really enjoyed reading your profile. I laughed out loud at several of your answers. Also, in your profile I was thinking, 'He's looking for the same thing I'

M

looking for!'"

 

Yep.

 

But if you appeal to the women who want their handsome, well-articulate, esoterically brilliant, and exceedingly well traveled caballero, doesn't it stand to reason that SOME, maybe even a minority perhaps, but at least a modicum want just a guy who is just a regular, decent guy?

 

Because that is my target audience and those are the female profiles I messaged to.

 

Some of the female profiles are only one or two sentences and say things like "Just want a down to Earth guy", no makeup in pics, but I messaged them anyway.

 

Or you are saying pretty much every woman wants the absolute creme de la creme, knock me out of my socks pics & profile, no matter how proletariat their own profile is?

Edited December 5, 2014 by JuneJulySeptember

[insert_name]

OLD success is 99% based on your pics. The people who give you tips on sending messages and making profiles are just misleading you. Why do you think so many people have made fake profiles to check their results? I have made so many different fake profiles to try out so many different things and I learned that if you want to meet women online, what you say is almost meaningless. Just attract them with pics.

 

In light of all of this, I would never use OLD. When substance is completely ignored for a better looking pic, I know that isn't the place I want to try and find a decent woman.

 

Interesting- can I just clarify that you tested this by using the same profile text substituting pictures of you with some George Clooney dude or whatever and found that the reaction to your profile was entirely dependent on the pics? I have wanted to try testing my profile text like this myself but cant be arsed xD

[insert_name]

I have done it all. My same profile, but with better looking pics got a ton of responses. I picked up a few pics of some great lookin guy from Europe. I didn't want to use a model they might recognize. I did have to change the age and height categories to reflect the new pics, stuff like that. The body of the profile remained the same. I did this on POF, and I started getting plenty of messages right away, as well as a bunch of women who said they want to "meet me." I also thought it was ironic that almost every message I got had nothing to do with my actual profile, but were all just stuff like, "hey sexy." Women from across the board were messaging me, which is another point I found interesting. I had older women, fatter women, broke women, rich women, all kinds of women trying to talk to me. Out of curiousity, I later changed the body of the profile and filled it full of rude, douchebag type garbage. While my results weren't quite as spectacular, they were still good. I had things in my profile like "no fatties." Nothing positive to say whatsoever. I still got plenty of hits, which I could easily have turned into plenty of dates. There are also plenty of cases you can find online about how guys have made OLD accounts and ONLY sent rude, sexual messages, and got plenty of responses. That's why I stopped using OLD. Most of the women on there would rather have a good lookin guy treat them like garbage and use them for sex, before they would waste any time talking to a regular, decent guy. Plenty of decent women in the real world. Very few using OLD.

 

Yeah I mean theres nothing there thats particularly surprising or new, it just seems to resonate a lot more to me when its someone whose posting style seems very fair rather than some random guy on a blog who did a test but may have an axe to grind or other cognitive bias going on.

 

In different ways we are all as bad as each other on OLD. There is very littke moral highground for either gender. The ones to feel sorry for are the genuine dudes who are trying to make a connection but are drowned out by the dick pic mongers.

 

Interesting to note that for all the complaints about douchebag messages thst they receive, some women will tolerate a douchebag profile if he makes them tingle down below.

[serial muse]

Frankly, I think there's a confirmation bias there, and it's related to what was being discussed in the other OLD thread going on right now. Men sending dick pics and women responding with enthusiasm are the online characters who are most visible and vocal, and they BOTH are the groups drawing the most ire - with the requisite "see all men are like this" and "see all women basically want that".

 

Neither supposition is true and the art of online dating is to understand that. Yes, it's frustrating and yes there's a lot of weeding out, and I would never advocate that it be the only way that people try to connect romantically. But if you think all (or even most) women are really responding to dick pics with a tingle down below then that's because you're focused on the wrong women. So, if you are, and if you're also the sort of man who says "women like bad boys", then I strongly advise you to check your own biases, because you apparently only care what the "bad girls" are into.

[salparadise]

But if you appeal to the women who want their handsome, well-articulate, esoterically brilliant, and exceedingly well traveled caballero, doesn't it stand to reason that SOME, maybe even a minority perhaps, but at least a modicum want just a guy who is just a regular, decent guy?

 

I don't portray myself as extraordinary, I just engage, communicate and throw in some humor. The one thing the women I appeal to have in common is that they want an emotionally mature and available guy. I do not appeal to all women––those who want the stoic, macho, mustached, big-wheel truck-driving types never message me, which is fine.

 

Some of the female profiles are only one or two sentences and say things like "Just want a down to Earth guy", no makeup in pics, but I messaged them anyway.

 

Yes, because they're females and you're not. That's jus the way it is. A guy has to work harder and differentiate himself in some way.

 

Or you are saying pretty much every woman wants the absolute creme de la creme, knock me out of my socks pics & profile, no matter how proletariat their own profile is?

 

No, I am saying that if you don't figure out how to stand apart in a way that is appealing to the type of woman you're interested in, then you're going to have a hard time getting noticed.

 

I worked in advertising as copywriter/designer/photographer. I've practiced the subtle appeal for decades. I rewrote the profile many times until I started getting the kind of responses I wanted. Once I realized what they wanted I gave'em more. In direct mail it's a known fact that long copy sells. You need to engage a prospect for a few minutes, not a few seconds. So, direct mail techniques, softened so it's not obvious.

Edited December 6, 2014 by salparadise

[insert_name]

Frankly, I think there's a confirmation bias there, and it's related to what was being discussed in the other OLD thread going on right now. Men sending dick pics and women responding with enthusiasm are the online characters who are most visible and vocal, and they BOTH are the groups drawing the most ire - with the requisite "see all men are like this" and "see all women basically want that".

 

Neither supposition is true and the art of online dating is to understand that. Yes, it's frustrating and yes there's a lot of weeding out, and I would never advocate that it be the only way that people try to connect romantically. But if you think all (or even most) women are really responding to dick pics with a tingle down below then that's because you're focused on the wrong women. So, if you are, and if you're also the sort of man who says "women like bad boys", then I strongly advise you to check your own biases, because you apparently only care what the "bad girls" are into.

 

I wasnt saying that girls are responding to dick pics with positivity, I am saying that there are a lot of complaints from women about derogatory messages from men yet they will still message guys who write a profile painting themselves out to be a total douchebag simply because the guy is hot. It seems that with men its possible thst looks totally define the context in how the person comes across, again though, nothing really new about that. The whole thing about abs pics is relevant here, so many women advise against ab pics and yet what is the profile pic type with the best response rate?

 

With OLD I dont care about bad girls per se (I wouldnt message someone with a vile/bad grammar profile no matter how hot they are), I only care about who women are messaging so it can help me figure out where I am going wrong with my profile. What enigma32 is suggesting is interesting because it goes some way towards rendering the obsession over profile writing and all the tips that you read redundant because it comes down to looks even more than I had first suspected.

 

I dont get any feedback from the women I message, I get a profile view and thats all I have to go on to sharpen my game. What put them off? Pictures or profile text or both? Seems like its more than likely to be pictures and that your opening line can be as lame as you like and if your pics hold up then you are in.

 

 

Again I dont mean to make this sound like a whinge, I am over the hurtful aspects of OLD and am now looking at how I can actually get results and take positives from it, but everytime it always seems to lead back round to that feeling of helplessness that I can't actually succeed no matter what I do because there are too many variables in play and too many unknowns. Basically the best analogy I can come up with is that its like playing a video game where you have to figure out a combination for a 10 digit numerical lock where the most numbers that the game will give you at any one time is 3 or 4 and you have to literally guess the other 6/7. Its either going to take blind luck on a grand scale or you will just chase your tail until you run out of attempts to solve it.