Cheaters are BROKEN?!

[Furious]

That is a very cliche term thrown around boards like this in describing a WS. But are they really broken?

 

I would posit that perhaps for a certain percentage of the population it is the concept of monogamy itself is what is broken.

 

History has well evidenced that monogamy is not an instinct, it is a learned behavior imposed on people for numerous reasons. Societies for thousands and thousands of years have written rules about this very topic mainly in religious teachings. The same way that homosexual activities have been ostracized in these same teachings throughout history. Are gays broken? I would suggest that neither the cheater or the gay is broken. Instead I would say they are both following their natural path, which society at large has deemed unacceptable for conditioned reasons. Both still exist no matter how much brainwashing we have been introduced to during our lives. They existed from the beginning of time and they exist today.

 

I know that some people will say because I was upfront with my wife after getting busted I am not broken. BUT if my MW came on this site and relayed her story about our A, she would be labeled broken. Same relationship. I don't view her as broken at all. She is just a person that after maturing realized she made a bad choice of a lifelong partner at the age of 20.

 

Speaking of cliche's. "Well, then get divorced. Thousands of people get divorced every day." That is much easier said than done, and as evidence shows the women in most cases get the short end of the stick, so to speak, not just financially, but morally as well.

 

Then there is the honesty thing. That is why they are broken. Or is it? Up until recently both being gay and having an affair/divorce were taboo, and in some ways still are. People were not being honest with themselves or their spouses since forever. Does that make them broken?

 

We have numerous examples, but one in particular on this board of a woman that was living in a sham of a marriage from the beginning. Was her husband 'broken' because he tried to conform to what society/wife expected, but failed?

 

Conformity. If you do not conform you are deemed broken. I really don't think that is a fair diagnosis.

 

 

 

Your wife is ok with you having another woman, it's obvious she is checked out as a full wife. Your other woman is married to a cheater.

 

You and your other woman are basically betrayed spouses but would rather indentify as WS's rather than betrayed spouses. There seems to be rewriting of both your narratives, as you both are unable to break free from the hold of your spouses.

 

I see your predictament and the attempt to appear as new age enlightened, even going as far as insinuating a connection to gay rights issue...which is really an insult to the gay community to lump them in with cheaters.

 

Your other woman is a betrayed spouse and most likely your wife has another man and is good with you having another woman.

 

I see this as more of a denial of reality and fragile egos than an intellectual rewriting of monogamy.

[anne1707]

I think OPs first post really is a prime example of the cheater's mindset. We are all very lucky to get a glimpse into what level of rationalization is needed to maintain this type of behavior with being in a state of constant cognitive dissonance. Even when you try to explain that all his points are "apples and oranges" comparisons, he still WON'T accept it. Wow, just wow.

 

I mean, how far into outer space does your mind have to go to start comparing cheaters to an underrepresented, oppressed, protected minority status? Honestly, some of it just sooo far out there.

 

I suppose next cheaters need their own flag and a pride day! We're here, we cheat, get used to it!

 

I think a red flag would be appropriate.

 

Excuse me...

 

Just as it was totally inappropriate for the OP to compare cheating it being gay, it is also totally inappropriate to compare the OPs way of thinking to that of every other WS out there.

 

I have never tried to justify, excuse or celebrate my affair. And there are plenty of other WS on this site who are more akin to me in this aspect than they are to the OP.

[beach]

Don't get me wrong here. I have a fully clear conscience.. It hit me today that if my MW came and posted on this board about her story in our A, everyone would suggest she is broken, when she is not.

 

Ahhh, but yes, she is... She is still lying and hiding your affair so that it feeds her ego and harms her husband and family. A perfectly healthy woman with a strong moral compass would never consider doing that to a spouse.

 

Yours is a bit different because your W knows - but your OW is living her lies everyday by not being honest.

 

My MW, because she chose to partner with me, is not broken.

 

It's that she chooses to be dishonest that makes her broken. See, you are only looking at it from your skewed angle.

Edited December 5, 2014 by beach

[violet1]

Realist,

I think you justify your affair and believe it's okay because you have never dealt with the destruction an affair can cause.

 

 

Your wife found out and she's okay with it as long as it's not thrown in her face. You've stated in the past that your daughter knows and I okay with it.

 

 

My question is what if the MW's husband and children found out? Do you think they would be as accepting? My assumption is no they wouldn't. If they would, you wouldn't be jumping through hoops to keep the affair secret. Until you actually see the pain on the faces of the people you hurt, you'll never get it. I don't necessarily believe the cheater as a person is broken, but the behavior is for sure. Who likes their sexual health being put at risk behind their back? Who likes being lied to on a daily basis? Who likes finding out that their life with their spouse was a complete lie.

 

 

Your posts make me sad. You throw out all kinds of arguments to defend your behavior. You know it's wrong, you know if your A was outed to the world there would be complete humiliation and destruction, but you continue on. Stop trying to convince everyone that your behavior is okay and justified. If you want to live as a liar and a coward then that's your choice, but don't try to push it onto other people.

[No Limit]

I think OPs first post really is a prime example of the cheater's mindset. We are all very lucky to get a glimpse into what level of rationalization is needed to maintain this type of behavior with being in a state of constant cognitive dissonance.

 

To be honest, since psychology is part of my studies, I do find it terribly interesting. And on the side it reminds me of a sad, sick version of transcendence (in literature, romantic era); basically the transition from an assumed reality to a fantasy world (the strongest transition depicted in literature being death by the way; with cheaters, it seems to be the death of mind and soul). I wonder what reactions a D-Day in this case might cause, although I also speculate it wouldn't change anything at all for OP except for maybe the location of his home.

[violet1]

Excuse me...

 

Just as it was totally inappropriate for the OP to compare cheating it being gay, it is also totally inappropriate to compare the OPs way of thinking to that of every other WS out there.

 

I have never tried to justify, excuse or celebrate my affair. And there are plenty of other WS on this site who are more akin to me in this aspect than they are to the OP.

 

 

I agree! Do not compare me to Realist. I'm ashamed of my A. I'm ashamed of my behavior and the hurt it caused the person I love most. Realist is not like most WS's. His behavior is accepted by his wife. I really wish she would post her story here. She's the one I would like to hear from not his MW. I'd like to know how she can be so approving of her husband screwing his soul mate while staying married to her.

[No Limit]

I'd like to know how she can be so approving of her husband screwing his soul mate while staying married to her.

 

It's probably just more convenient for her this way. Too bad she laid her cards out right away, it's not surprising that OP takes his advantage of it.

 

Try train your dog by giving it a treat all the time, you'll have a little pest threatening and biting you in your own home in no time. It's also very obvious with horses without proper training.

 

Just sad that the daughter is involved/knows about it. Being a man's housewife is the rolemodel she's getting. :/

[MuddyFootprints]

When I was a cheater, I was vulnerable. I was naive. I was in pain. I was selfish. I was cruel. I was a misguided fool.

 

I was broken. He was broken. Our marriage was broken.

 

We both expected perfection and neither of us would accept or acknowledge our own flaws.

 

We were human, but turned each other into monsters.

 

It truly was an ugly place to be.

[beach]

Originally Posted by violet1

I'd like to know how she can be so approving of her husband screwing his soul mate while staying married to her.

 

It could be that she simply stopped caring about him, his needs and just started caring more that he just doesn't "embarrass" her.

 

So having him keep the peace at home while she does what she's interested in doing is nicer for her.

 

Or - maybe she has her own guy she likes better but not enough to lose her social status.

 

 

A lot of marriages are based on convenience and not on love and trust... But when I was younger I had no idea how many.

 

 

I think your arrangement in your marriage seems to work for you but what your OW is doing in secret is just despicable to her family. There's no way you can convince me that she's not broken. Selfish and self centered? Yes. But not broken, no way!

[FusionCutter]

Neither deserve physical or mental ass kickings.

 

Nobody is hurt by gay people.

In affairs people's lives are wrecked. Huge difference.

[HereNorThere]

Excuse me...

 

Just as it was totally inappropriate for the OP to compare cheating it being gay, it is also totally inappropriate to compare the OPs way of thinking to that of every other WS out there.

 

I have never tried to justify, excuse or celebrate my affair. And there are plenty of other WS on this site who are more akin to me in this aspect than they are to the OP.

 

With all due respect, I can't imagine someone cheating for 3 years and never rationalizing or justifiying poor behavior, lying or crazy making behavior during that time. If you aren't an active cheater now, learned your lesson, etc, I think that's a great thing. I do believe some people have the power to change. However, that also means you are no longer a cheater, so what I said wouldn't apply to you.

[anne1707]

With all due respect, I can't imagine someone cheating for 3 years and never rationalizing or justifiying poor behavior, lying or crazy making behavior during that time. If you aren't an active cheater now, learned your lesson, etc, I think that's a great thing. I do believe some people have the power to change. However, that also means you are no longer a cheater, so what I said wouldn't apply to you.

 

With all due respect, just because you can't imagine it, does not mean it is not true. I reckon I am in a far better position than you to know my thought processes throughout my affair.

[mintcondition]

More than 50% of marriages fail and the other half that decides to stay married just make a habit of making each other miserable by fighting like Israelis vs. Palestinians. No wonder cheating and infidelity is running rampant. Or is it the other way around, just like the OP alluded to about how monogamy is innately counterintuitive to what drives humans sexually. Therefore, pairing up for life will inevitably lead to infidelity in many cases.

[velvette]

My MW, because she chose to partner with me, is not broken.

 

Right, she's not broken because she chose you, but she chose you because she is broken.

 

 

She needed someone who would put up with her brokenness. Who knows what causes it, maybe you know enough about her background to figure it out.

 

 

But, from what you have said, it manifests itself as an inability to leave a bad marriage to an allegedly controlling spouse because she is dependent on him. That's pretty broken in my book.

[HereNorThere]

With all due respect, just because you can't imagine it, does not mean it is not true. I reckon I am in a far better position than you to know my thought processes throughout my affair.

 

I do think this is relevant to OPs post as it really is about rewriting history and cultural norms.

 

I mean, don't you find it the least bit ironic that you are denying things that you've clearly documented in your previous posts? It's documented that you were still seeing your AP even after your husband thought the affair was over. Is that not lying or crazy making behavior? I mean, you really yo-yo'd your husband for a really long period of time and the proof is a few clicks away.

 

You seem like a rational person and obviously different than OP, but there are certain truths that you can't deny. I simply do not understand how you could deny things that are so easily provable.

 

I do think we agree on a lot of stuff though. Yay for atheism and cats! Maybe we should just stick to discussing those things! I also applaud your effort at saving your marriage and rebuilding your husbands trust. Plus, I'm sure your posts have helped a lot people. It does seem like you've come a long way.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Wedding vows are just a promise.... and those promises get broken all the time... not just by infidelity, and not just by the cheating spouse... Just words.

 

So why make the promise to begin with? This is a silly argument. Everything is "just words" then, every promise you make is little more than just something to say. If people view wedding vows this way why get (or STAY) married and why say them?

[cocorico]

So why make the promise to begin with? This is a silly argument. Everything is "just words" then, every promise you make is little more than just something to say. If people view wedding vows this way why get (or STAY) married and why say them?

 

Not all MPs promise sexual exclusivity. Some BSs simply assume over time that their spouse will forever be sexually exclusive because they have not previously taken advantage of the agreement they both made at the outset not to be bound by societal expectations such as sexual exclusivity, or gendered roles, or the pressure to procreate. And because they in their heads change the rules, without communicating their changed expectations, they get very upset when they discover that their spouse is still holding to the original agreements.

[cocorico]

That said, I think my H was broken during our A - broken by his M. Luckily our R and his counselling helped him deal with that.

[MissBee]

I have a problem with monogamy being brought up as "not natural" as a justification for cheating. It's naturalness isn't in question. Most of human society isn't natural, but we all live within different levels of construction and conformity, that's what a society is. If you live in the woods as a feral person with no kin and no society then it's up for grabs but once you live among others in some nation or country or kin group there are norms, traditions, values etc and you don't question some of them but question others etc.

 

Lots of people are not monogamous, so I don't see monogamy as the issue as from time began you've had non-monogamous and monogamous unions. HOW you go about living your relationships (and perhaps how much hurt you cause yourself and others while doing so) is what people will often use to determine if you are broken or if your relationship is healthy/unhealthy: it's fruit and what it produces so to speak.

 

There isn't a law that forces anyone to be monogamous in the U.S. You can't be legally wedded to more than one person, but one is free to have non-monogamous relationships, open marriages etc. If you don't want to conform...don't get married. Marrying is what is conformity more so than monogamy I'd argue, as lots of people don't marry and have monogamous relationships as well or choose non-monogamy, just like some married folks choose open relationships. Don't make the ultimate commitment which implies monogamy -marriage - and then cheat and then say well monogamy is unnatural. Did you discover this before or after marriage? Do you think every married person has one way of being married? No. It is silly to me to make it seem like it's monogamy or death lmao! There are choices in between that can be open and frank and honest.

 

For me: I don't have any special allegiance to monogamy wherein I think it is right or the only way. I think people are on a spectrum and we can be more or less monogamous , just like sexuality has been found to be on a spectrum with people usually falling somewhere in between versus one or another extreme. Those things to me are besides the point though. Regardless of if monogamy is unnatural or not...choosing it for yourself and then secretly doing something else...like what do you want people to say to you about it? Blaming monogamy on your inability to tell your spouse or ask them how they'd feel about a different arrangement is lame. The problem is: most people want things their way and a lot of cheating is about doing what you want but not letting the other person know as they'll make their own choices which may be disadvantageous to you. Hence, people avoid frank discussions, which is what most cheating in any context is, gaining an advantage unfairly.

 

As for cheaters being broken? Some indeed are. While some may have no extra special brokenness beyond being afraid of what their honesty might mean, selfishness, being scared to divorce because "it's not that easy" so they are simply more comfortable maintaining a charade of the status quo versus facing what change may mean and so on.

 

Monogamy is irrelevant here. And making it seem like woe is me the non-conformist, people are crucifying me for being a non-conformist... Err nah. People crucify cheaters because they lie, deceive, drag things out and do a lot of other negative things in an effort to live two different lives. They are conforming on the outside and then being shady behind someone's or multiple people's backs. That isn't brave or some model of non-conformity. People who choose to have open marriages, who choose nontraditional relationships where ALL PARTIES CONSENT in the face of a society where monogamy is the norm are the true non-conformists who are also doing things in a just way by living an alternative lifestyle where all involved choose it...but choosing marriage then cheating and hiding and lying as most cheaters do is in no way the same thing. You're exactly conforming to the model of what people expect but doing something else secretly.

Edited December 6, 2014 by MissBee

[goodyblue]

I dont think my guy is broken, nor am i. He was just in a lonely place. What we did was wrong and it did hurt other people. We made a stupid decision. People make stupid choices sometimes. Doesn't mean you can't redeem yourself. People move on and live fulfilling, happy lives.

[MissBee]

Meant to add:

 

Since you used being gay as an example (which is quite another thing), I'll say, gay people who choose to OPENLY come out and admit their sexuality and live openly with their partners are not conforming and are admirable esp for other gay people who are struggling. Gay people who marry and live a heterosexual life but are sleeping with their own sex behind their partner's backs or those who aren't married but live the charade of straightness and then are on the down low are not admired by the gay community...they are seen as being disingenuous and cowardly often times. Granted, gayness is way more polemical and dangerous to be than non-monogamous and so that is more understandable, but point is, in most contexts, there is some understanding of living an authentic life versus a charade.

 

My bestfriend is a lesbian and says she would never ever [again]be with a woman who is not out as it's much like being in an affair: the hiding, lying about their relationship, denying the nature of the relationship, can't even plan a future, family doesn't know etc. She's engaged to a wonderful woman now who is openly a lesbian, but when she was single she refused to date women who weren't out after doing it before. They were conforming on the outside to heterosexuality but were secretly having lesbian relationships and she was their secret. Same here. If monogamy isn't your thing, be brave, face the consequences of that choice (just like some gay people choose to face those consequences, it's not easy but most feel a lot better no longer hiding the truth while some are scared, and understandably so, so simply "pass" as straight). But don't choose it, then do something else on the low and then blame monogamy and say you'r a non-conformist when you very much are conforming by the fact that you're living the "acceptable" life publicly then doing whatever else you're doing in secret.

 

I don't personally understand how THAT part isn't seen as the issue for some...but rather the focus on whether or not monogamy is natural becomes the point.

[jnel921]

When I first posted about my H's A my title was "My H lied and Broke us." No one is the perfect spouse here. However if your choices cause you to hurt your spouse and your M then yes something is broken. MC or IC and whatever else you do helps to reveal the issues.

 

When you love each other you FIX it.

 

D is an excuse and an easy way out for those WS who are in and can't come out of the lust fog they are in.

 

The Gay reference is a whole other topic. Gays are not broken. They are being told this because there are too many people who still not as accepting of this. It's a shame. Some towns and churches want to convince you that it is a sin. Pray it away. But they can't. It's who they are and who they prefer. So who the hell is anyone to convince them otherwise.

 

OP Are you struggling with your W's A because you are gay and trying to determine who is really broken?

Edited December 6, 2014 by jnel921

[Realist3]

Glad I brought this up. Haven't read through it all. There seems to be quite a discussion.

 

Societal norms form the discussion.

[xxoo]

Glad I brought this up. Haven't read through it all. There seems to be quite a discussion.

 

Societal norms form the discussion.

 

What societal norms?

 

Society looks down on cheaters far more than divorced individuals or even poly couples.

[whichwayisup]

Not all MPs promise sexual exclusivity. Some BSs simply assume over time that their spouse will forever be sexually exclusive because they have not previously taken advantage of the agreement they both made at the outset not to be bound by societal expectations such as sexual exclusivity, or gendered roles, or the pressure to procreate. And because they in their heads change the rules, without communicating their changed expectations, they get very upset when they discover that their spouse is still holding to the original agreements.

 

Most expect exclusivity and monogamy when people say their vows.

 

If things change in the marriage, then it's up to BOTH spouses to speak to each other about it and together fix things.

 

I think most believe this true. Why would someone go into a marriage thinking otherwise?

 

As for the original topic - Broken and selfish.

 

Cheating isn't a 'normal' thing to do. It's purposely hurting someone you (general you) claimed to love and be faithful to.