Cheaters are BROKEN?!

[velvette]

 

 

 

 

 

Sadly, you are an extraordinary example of a cheater cliche, a cheater who will not publicly defend your beliefs but only gripe about them.

 

 

Kind of funny when you think about it. Every group that deviates from societal norms has its proponents. Even pedophiles.

 

 

And yet, as far as I know, there is no " I'm proud to be a cheater" society.

[Bittersweetie]

What is telling is that Realist has disappeared from the discussion. I'm sure there is a justification for that though.

[merrmeade]

What is telling is that Realist has disappeared from the discussion. I'm sure there is a justification for that though.

I think the last post before his departure got a little too personal. Someone mentioned the angst R3 had expressed about his MW's affair 'games.' His response — "Water under the bridge" — did not deny that the "broken" envelope was being pushed uncomfortably close to home. Still, he would have left the thread satisfied that over 150 posts were submitted within 24 hours whereas the last 46 came in over the previous 3 days.

 

The thing is he made it very clear in the beginning and repeated the rules of his thread: We were only to consider the validity of his comparisons between the gay community and cheaters in terms of social attitudes toward each group. With the conclusion kind of open for input, the intellectual exercise he seemed to want might have been taken up on any other forum. For now, nevermind that "broken" can never be a universally meaningful term, someone could have created some semblance of logic between the premise and the unstated conclusion with his vague, loosely connected comparisons. But everything fell apart with the meandering oversimplifications in his sub-points. Strange non sequiturs that left us at "fallacy" before he even hit the submit button. A few tried to point out the false analogy, but I think it "went over his head."

 

I would simply like to state that if anyone were really and truly going to try and fix his cobbled-together argument, the first thing would be to restate the premise: "Cheaters are broken." I think we assumed that "cheaters" meant married people who break their vows. But "broken" does not have a generally accepted definition by any means, and, in fact, the discussion free-flowed between widely ranging assumptions about moral, psychological, social, and/or emotional 'brokenness.' What 'broken' looks like — behavior, roles, symptoms — also covered a wide range of possibilities.

 

The problem was the utter volatility of such a topic in the midst of all the wounded souls, some quite recently, so it could never get off the ground as a real venue for objective review. I used to think R3 was arrogant and enjoyed taunting BSs with his insensitive remarks and questions but have decided he's genuinely clueless.

[goodyblue]

This is true, but I think it does require that the person be willing/able to do some introspection in order to mend his/her ways.

 

I take exception to your implication that BS are the ones who check out of the marriage first, paving the way for cheating. That may be true in your specific situation -- I don't know -- but by no means should you generalize to all BS. It's unfair and judgmental of you.

 

 

 

I would counter that PLENTY of WS's like to justify what they did to make the marriage an absolute mess, by doing exactly what you said: Suggesting it was all the BS's fault, really. It's just nonsense, self-serving and oversimplifying nonsense. There are plenty of WS's who broke their marriage vows long before cheating even happened -- you know, checking out, being cold, withholding sex, emotional abuse, etc. etc. etc. Doesn't mean the BS isn't responsible for his/her own behavior in a marriage -- but by that logic, each person owns his own ****, and that means that cheating is down to the one who did it. Full stop. You just can't have it both ways.

 

That anyone would make it so reductive as to suggest that infidelity is all about BS being cold --> WS cheating suggests to me that there's very little introspection at all.

 

Great post and I agree with most of what you said. My point is really just that in our situation my guy was emotionally, physically and spiritually abandoned by his ex. She has acknowledged this to him. But, this was when they first split and sbe wanted him back. Once she.found out we were continuing our relationship according to her he was going to hell and she was on her way to sainthood. And it is bullsh*t. Of course he takes responsibility for his choice to have an affair. There WERE things leading up to it.

 

I realize there are millions of reasons for an affair. This was his. He didn't just decide that it was a new Ferrari or an affair because he wanted to feel virile. He was a lonely person. Desperate people do desperate things and it has taken IC and CC for us to figure out what happened with him, us, and them. It may have been the wrong reaction, but for him, it was a reaction to loneliness, misery, and all the suffering he went through from doing.what he perceived to be 'the right.thing'.

[merrmeade]

Whoa, talk about not making sense and failing to state a conclusion...! That's what comes of trying to use logic to point out fallacy at 3:50 a.m. [Reference: my own post above, #203]

 

Anyway nothing really needed to follow post #200, Furious' excoriating exposé of the fallacies in R3's initial premise. She blew it out of the water and put in its place the moral hubris behind such an absurd analogy. Neither I nor anyone needed to waste time discussing the fallacy of OP's argument. Shining a light on the egotistical pride that conceived it was more appropriate and effective.

 

I did feel bad for all the infuriated posters that responded during the first 24 hours. OP's patronizing insistence that his false premise had gone "over her [his] head" was crazy making. Main thing is it's pretty clear he's harping on a tune that he can't get out of his own head. Anyone with such a disconnect between heart and head has got to worry about being "broken."

Edited December 9, 2014 by merrmeade

[elaine567]

I think that the assumption the the BS and the marriage has no impact on some cheaters and I emphasise some, is a bit naive.

Anyone who feels trapped in a loveless, abusive or a stale marriage is going to seek solace elsewhere. Humans are sociable creatures, we(gen) do not do well lonely and miserable. We (gen) tend to look for some solution to whatever situation we are presented with.

 

For some that solace may be alcohol, for some it may be drugs, for some it may be an obsession with fishing or flower arranging, for others it may be the church or a counsellor or a circle of close friends.

However for some such spouses, the attentions of another man/woman may be hard to ignore, they are like a dry sponge ready to soak up the smallest piece of moisture available.

 

Desperate people do desperate things and it has taken IC and CC for us to figure out what happened with him, us, and them. It may have been the wrong reaction, but for him, it was a reaction to loneliness, misery, and all the suffering he went through from doing what he perceived to be 'the right.thing'.

[serial muse]

I think that the assumption the the BS and the marriage has no impact on some cheaters and I emphasise some, is a bit naive.

Anyone who feels trapped in a loveless, abusive or a stale marriage is going to seek solace elsewhere. Humans are sociable creatures, we(gen) do not do well lonely and miserable. We (gen) tend to look for some solution to whatever situation we are presented with.

 

For some that solace may be alcohol, for some it may be drugs, for some it may be an obsession with fishing or flower arranging, for others it may be the church or a counsellor or a circle of close friends.

However for some such spouses, the attentions of another man/woman may be hard to ignore, they are like a dry sponge ready to soak up the smallest piece of moisture available.

 

I guess what makes this difficult for a lot of BS to sign off on, is the fact that it's not always so obvious who was denying physical or emotional intimacy to whom. There are many cases where it was the WS who checked out emotionally, and then sought "solace" in the arms of someone else - and it's really hard to get around the fact that the BS in those cases was both the deprived one and yet didn't make the choice to cheat. Which is what makes it seem like a personal weakness of character, not a clear and inevitable or even understandable response to a particular stimulus.

[goodyblue]

I think that the assumption the the BS and the marriage has no impact on some cheaters and I emphasise some, is a bit naive.

Anyone who feels trapped in a loveless, abusive or a stale marriage is going to seek solace elsewhere. Humans are sociable creatures, we(gen) do not do well lonely and miserable. We (gen) tend to look for some solution to whatever situation we are presented with.

 

For some that solace may be alcohol, for some it may be drugs, for some it may be an obsession with fishing or flower arranging, for others it may be the church or a counsellor or a circle of close friends.

However for some such spouses, the attentions of another man/woman may be hard to ignore, they are like a dry sponge ready to soak up the smallest piece of moisture available.

 

I agree. I think it is really quite sad in those situations. That is why i wish we had begun dating after he he left, and I don't condone affairs, but i will never regret my actions because i am happier than I have ever been. I also believe in forgiveness and moving forward, not looking back. His ex will be miserable until she stops wallowing in the past and faces her future with a positive outlook. I do not know if she is capable and I am sorry she was hurt. But i truly believe he was hurt more.

[goodyblue]

I guess what makes this difficult for a lot of BS to sign off on, is the fact that it's not always so obvious who was denying physical or emotional intimacy to whom. There are many cases where it was the WS who checked out emotionally, and then sought "solace" in the arms of someone else - and it's really hard to get around the fact that the BS in those cases was both the deprived one and yet didn't make the choice to cheat. Which is what makes it seem like a personal weakness of character, not a clear and inevitable or even understandable response to a particular stimulus.

 

In our case, he feels his ex was happy.with.the status quo. She had a comfortable life and he gave up on sex so she didn't have to worry about anything. She didn't cheat because she didn't want sex from anyone. Nothing to do, in our. case, with some innate flaw. He was married 30 years. I was his only affair and it was a pretty short affair. TBH i.don't really care who signs off on it, BS or otherwise. We are thrilled with our life.

[elaine567]

I guess what makes this difficult for a lot of BS to sign off on, is the fact that it's not always so obvious who was denying physical or emotional intimacy to whom. There are many cases where it was the WS who checked out emotionally, and then sought "solace" in the arms of someone else - and it's really hard to get around the fact that the BS in those cases was both the deprived one and yet didn't make the choice to cheat. Which is what makes it seem like a personal weakness of character, not a clear and inevitable or even understandable response to a particular stimulus.

 

That is why it is very interesting to ponder on the cheating genes, it may be that cheaters are just born to cheat.

Study Links Gene Variant in Men to Marital Discord

 

It would definitely explain why some spouses seek "solace" in the library and others seek "solace" in the company of a libertine.

[merrmeade]

In our case, he feels his ex was happy.with.the status quo. She had a comfortable life and he gave up on sex so she didn't have to worry about anything. She didn't cheat because she didn't want sex from anyone. Nothing to do, in our. case, with some innate flaw. He was married 30 years. I was his only affair and it was a pretty short affair. TBH i.don't really care who signs off on it, BS or otherwise. We are thrilled with our life.

Oh, to heck with the thread. This is more interesting anyway...

 

At some point, I started noticing that most OW/Ms accept without question the WS's version of the marriage and spouse. Then, I noticed that they were generally saying the same things — no sex or unloving spouse, broken marriage. They often don't question the possibility of exaggerating or oversimplifying on the part of the WS and then report the story as their truth - but they really only know what WS told them. Very few seem to question the WS's accuracy.

 

Curious.

[goodyblue]

Oh, to heck with the thread. This is more interesting anyway...

 

At some point, I started noticing that most OW/Ms accept without question the WS's version of the marriage and spouse. Then, I noticed that they were generally saying the same things — no sex or unloving spouse, broken marriage. They often don't question the possibility of exaggerating or oversimplifying on the part of the WS and then report the story as their truth - but they really only know what WS told them. Very few seem to question the WS's accuracy.

 

Curious.

 

I understand what you are saying. I know it is a common theme here on LS for women to find out later that the WS was exaggerating. That is why I said 'in my case'. I know it to be true from email exchanges where she readily admitted and corroborated the things he had been telling me during the A. Of course, we ended up differently from what we see here most of the time too.

 

I openly admit that I did just blindly believe him but I think it is because of the way he went about things, his immediate plan to leave and his taking action. I think, had he not made forward progress on the plan we had set in place I would have walked. The other aspect of this is that everyone is blinded by love a little. If we weren't nobody would ever even date let alone marry. I don't subscribe to affair fog, but I subscribe to having the same feelings every person has when in a new relationship.

 

I do know that she has her version as well and that is fine. The difference is, her version has changed quite a bit from the beginning to now. His has not.

 

X

Edited December 10, 2014 by goodyblue

[velvette]

Oh, to heck with the thread. This is more interesting anyway...

 

At some point, I started noticing that most OW/Ms accept without question the WS's version of the marriage and spouse. Then, I noticed that they were generally saying the same things — no sex or unloving spouse, broken marriage. They often don't question the possibility of exaggerating or oversimplifying on the part of the WS and then report the story as their truth - but they really only know what WS told them. Very few seem to question the WS's accuracy.

 

Curious.

 

 

Its very odd. To me and most women I know, badmouthing a previous partner is repulsive in a man. The whole time they are doing it, you can just hear something vile coming out of their mouth with your name attached to it in the future.

 

 

For some reason a lot of women who hang out with cheaters just lap these stories up and then go on to make them a narrative in their own lives. I really don't get it.

[autumnnight]

I think anytime someone knowingly hurts another person even if they think the person had it coming they are broken. I think that while someone is cheating they are broken. I think a BS who makes it their mission in life to play out their pain on every WS they meet is also broken. Anytime we excuse our stuff by blaming it on someone else's stuff we are displaying our broken-ness.

[elaine567]

I think, had he not made forward progress on the plan we had set in place I would have walked

 

I think there is actually a big difference between an exit affair and just cheating for cheating's sake.

I know many want to lump them together as one but I believe they are separate entities.

[velvette]

I think there is actually a big difference between an exit affair and just cheating for cheating's sake.

I know many want to lump them together as one but I believe they are separate entities.

 

There are many differences. But, the characteristics of conflict avoidance and the willingness to deceive to get what you want are the same.

 

 

One of the reasons the failure rates for R started as A's is so high. The same behavior tends to repeat without therapy.

[velvette]

I understand what you are saying. I know it is a common theme here on LS for women to find out later that the WS was exaggerating. That is why I said 'in my case'. I know it to be true from email exchanges where she readily admitted and corroborated the things he had been telling me during the A. Of course, we ended up differently from what we see here most of the time too.

 

I openly admit that I did just blindly believe him but I think it is because of the way he went about things, his immediate plan to leave and his taking action. I think, had he not made forward progress on the plan we had set in place I would have walked. The other aspect of this is that everyone is blinded by love a little. If we weren't nobody would ever even date let alone marry. I don't subscribe to affair fog, but I subscribe to having the same feelings every person has when in a new relationship.

 

I do know that she has her version as well and that is fine. The difference is, her version has changed quite a bit from the beginning to now. His has not.

 

X

 

 

That is what happens when you are married to someone who is conflict avoidant as most people who cheat are.

 

 

All the unresolved conflicts of 5,10,20, 30 years or more must be made sense of.

 

 

A cheaters story which holds himself blameless and his ex responsible for the failure of the M is essentially all about him and not really the story of the M. But, it is easy to keep straight and repeat like a mantra.

 

 

Sorting out the reality from this fiction when one spouse refuses to look at anything but his "mantra" requires revising the story over and over again and likely it will never make sense due to the inherent dishonesty of the other person's version.

 

 

You wont understand this until the first major conflict in your R or the first time he disappoints you in a big way. Then you will likely see his preferred behavior pattern replayed with you.

[goodyblue]

That is what happens when you are married to someone who is conflict avoidant as most people who cheat are.

 

 

All the unresolved conflicts of 5,10,20, 30 years or more must be made sense of.

 

 

A cheaters story which holds himself blameless and his ex responsible for the failure of the M is essentially all about him and not really the story of the M. But, it is easy to keep straight and repeat like a mantra.

 

 

Sorting out the reality from this fiction when one spouse refuses to look at anything but his "mantra" requires revising the story over and over again and likely it will never make sense due to the inherent dishonesty of the other person's version.

 

 

You wont understand this until the first major conflict in your R or the first time he disappoints you in a big way. Then you will likely see his preferred behavior pattern replayed with you.

 

Um. We have had to deal with conflict in our R. I think being therapy has helped to stay away from those pitfalls. We have been together for a few years, it is not as though he left a week ago. Lived together for some time.

 

He takes responsibility for the failure of his previous marriage. He knows what brought things to the brink. But when someone goes from "I am sorry I hated sex, I felt fat so I pulled away" to "It doesn't matter what I did, you cheated and that is worse", that is a problem. I was making a point about his ex, not blaming her alone. He stands by the fact that her removing herself emotionally and sexually irreparably damaged things. It was his response as to it that was not what it should have been. As I said before, everyone has their own version of events. Three sides to every story etc.

 

I think most BS seem to be as/more broken than any OW. I think they were before the affair took place.

 

I just feel they were not a good match. We are. Simple as that.

Edited December 10, 2014 by goodyblue

[merrmeade]

Um. We have had to deal with conflict in our R. I think being therapy has helped to stay away from those pitfalls. We have been together for a few years, it is not as though he left a week ago. Lived together for some time.

 

He takes responsibility for the failure of his previous marriage. He knows what brought things to the brink. But when someone goes from "I am sorry I hated sex, I felt fat so I pulled away" to "It doesn't matter what I did, you cheated and that is worse", that is a problem. I was making a point about his ex, not blaming her alone. He stands by the fact that her removing herself emotionally and sexually irreparably damaged things. It was his response as to it that was not what it should have been. As I said before, everyone has their own version of events. Three sides to every story etc.

 

I think most BS seem to be as/more broken than any OW. I think they were before the affair took place.

 

I just feel they were not a good match. We are. Simple as that.

It sounds like you've tried to be fair and weigh into your experience the patterns you've observed here and still be reasonably loyal to your spouse and to the truth. However, I still don't see how this effort and the evidence you've given are adequate to exonerate your exWS and put all the blame on his exBS. Actually the more you say about it, the more it sounds like he whitewashed it - or rather black-and-white washed it - believing, of course, the tidy explanation of what went wrong. But when you say she agreed that she pulled away because she felt fat, well, don't you have to ask where was the love on his part to understand, dig deeper, support her? Are you sure it wasn't her being fat and your being (not fat and whatever else made you attractive)? How did his responses contribute to her shame for feeling fat and whatever else? I fully believe that you are a better match than he was with his former wife for whatever reasons, but that still begs the question of how he dealt with the problems in his previous marriage, how he understood them and how he ultimately remembers and explains them to you.

 

Not that you have to answer to me or anyone but you offered the example. (And also, it feels yucky to read that you "just fit," implying that they didn't, and so it's better for everybody that it turned out this way. It just doesn't justify all the pain and lying. It just doesn't.)

 

And SO (to get back to the thread) maybe THAT's some of what people mean by "broken." Smoothly patting together pieces of reality to make the story of the WS's marriage more sympathetic. A little underreporting here, a little overemphasis there.

 

At some point, I wish someone would get back to the definition of "broken."

Edited December 10, 2014 by merrmeade

[goodyblue]

It sounds like you've tried to be fair and weigh into your experience the patterns you've observed here and still be reasonably loyal to your spouse and to the truth. However, I still don't see how this effort and the evidence you've given are adequate to exonerate your exWS and put all the blame on his exBS. Actually the more you say about it, the more it sounds like he whitewashed it - or rather black-and-white washed it - believing, of course, the tidy explanation of what went wrong. But when you say she agreed that she pulled away because she felt fat, well, don't you have to ask where was the love on his part to understand, dig deeper, support her? Are you sure it wasn't her being fat and your being (not fat and whatever else made you attractive)? How did his responses contribute to her shame for feeling fat and whatever else? I fully believe that you are a better match than he was with his former wife for whatever reasons, but that still begs the question of how he dealt with the problems in his previous marriage, how he understood them and how he ultimately remembers and explains them to you.

 

Not that you have to answer to me or anyone but you offered the example. (And also, it feels yucky to read that you "just fit," implying that they didn't, and so it's better for everybody that it turned out this way. It just doesn't justify all the pain and lying. It just doesn't.)

 

And SO (to get back to the thread) maybe THAT's some of what people mean by "broken." Smoothly patting together pieces of reality to make the story of the WS's marriage more sympathetic. A little underreporting here, a little overemphasis there.

 

At some point, I wish someone would get back to the definition of "broken."

 

He tried to get the two of them in therapy, to speak with someone alone, to go to AA, to speak with their pastor. She refused, and admitted this also. He did these things himself minus the CC. So yeah, you will probably get a jaded reaction from me as we have been in therapy to make sense of it all and I am on his side.

 

Btw, I am a fatty too, I think what fresh in to me is that I enjoy life. I do not believe in wallowing in misery.

 

The thing is, as soon as he walked out she was begging and pleading, offering counseling, to slow down the drinking, etc. Why? Why do all that at the last moment rather than try when there was still hope? I will tell you why: their religious beliefs dictate no divorce. She is born and raised, he a convert. She simply thought he would never leave and HER needs were being met. To me, that is the ultimate in selfishness and brokenness.

 

He, for his part twelve years before he left, became complacent and he focussed on his child rather than continuing to try and make things better.

 

Just yesterday we were looking at a home that just came on the market and the people who listed it are friends of his. The wife pulled me aside and told me how happy they all for him, how much more he smiles, how happy he is for his future.

 

I feel we have worked hard to be honest with ourselves, to forgive ourselves and move forward.

[velvette]

 

 

 

 

And SO (to get back to the thread) maybe THAT's some of what people mean by "broken." Smoothly patting together pieces of reality to make the story of the WS's marriage more sympathetic. A little underreporting here, a little overemphasis there.

 

At some point, I wish someone would get back to the definition of "broken."

 

 

I don't know exactly what the thread starter meant by "broken" and I rarely use that term myself other than here. Everyone has issues. Whether or not they reach the point of "broken" or the term I prefer dysfunction, depends on how much they affect the quality of your life. Also, whether they are causing you to live a life at odds with your values.

 

 

If they are controlling your behavior and creating negative consequences as well as if you are intentionally or blissfully unaware of them rather than working on them, you have and create around you "brokenness" or "dysfunction"

[merrmeade]

Well good on you. How does it feel to have wasted your life?

And good on you for your interpretive reading skills. How do you get "wasted your life" out of a post about a husband's affair while she was away, caring for her dying father?

[velvette]

Um. We have had to deal with conflict in our R. I think being therapy has helped to stay away from those pitfalls. We have been together for a few years, it is not as though he left a week ago. Lived together for some time.

 

.

 

 

A few years and not even married......that's a blip in terms of a long marriage. What I explained to you does not usually happen during the honeymoon phase of a relationship unless both people are severely dysfunctional.

[goodyblue]

A few years and not even married......that's a blip in terms of a long marriage. What I explained to you does not usually happen during the honeymoon phase of a relationship unless both people are severely dysfunctional.

 

Lol. Who says we are not married? And yeah, we have been through a lot together. I know it makes you feel better to think we are a dysfunctional relationship waiting to crash and burn. Sorry to disappoint you but we are great. A few years is a blip. Interesting. Are you saying we don't know hardship because we haven't earned it? We have buried my mother, been through his divorce, moved across the country, I changed careers, just to name a few things. But I don't think we will have the hardship of what a younger couple would go through. He is well to do and we can do pretty much whatever we like. Our life is full of fun. I won't ever have to work three jobs while he goes to school. We will never have to scrimp or go without. But we will deal with other things, raising kids while older, losing parents, failing health. I look forward to all of it. Please do yourself a favor and stop trying to minimize my relationship and our happiness.

 

I don't know where you fit on the spectrum. Did you stay with a husband who cheated?

Edited December 10, 2014 by goodyblue

[velvette]

Lol. Who says we are not married? And yeah, we have been through a lot together. I know it makes you feel better to think we are a dysfunctional relationship waiting to crash and burn. Sorry to disappoint you but we are great. A few years is a blip. Interesting. Are you saying we don't know hardship because we haven't earned it? We have buried my mother, been through his divorce, moved across the country, I changed careers, just to name a few things. But I don't think we will have the hardship of what a younger couple would go through. He is well to do and we can do pretty much whatever we like. Our life is full of fun. I won't ever have to work three jobs while he goes to school. We will never have to scrimp or go without. But we will deal with other things, raising kids while older, losing parents, failing health. I look forward to all of it. Please do yourself a favor and stop trying to minimize my relationship and our happiness.

 

 

I don't know where you fit on the spectrum. Did you stay with a husband who cheated?

 

 

Chill. You have no idea what would make me feel better, just like you have no idea what really happened in their marriage.

 

 

This is the second or third time you've said this. Obviously, its your issue. But, to think that I share an observation because I want you to be unhappy or your R to crash and burn its nutso. I have no affect on your R. Your R has a lot of hallmarks for being problematic. If you choose to disregard that, go to it.

 

 

As for whether or not you are married. No need to be snarky, just say you are or you aren't. You use the terms my guy, R, lived together....not normally the terms people who are married use. If you are married, I don't recall seeing you say so. If you are, then say so and I stand corrected.

 

 

I was an OW, BS to the same man, now happily reconciled with the same man for many years. I know something of which I speak. Not that one has to be any of those things to understand what I have said. But, again if you choose to ignore the collective wisdom of other women, go to it. There is no plot to make you unhappy. Take off your tin foil hat.