Cheaters are BROKEN?!

[autumnnight]

YES. That is my contention.

 

Being a cheater does not equate to being "broken", it may do, but not necessarily.

 

Actually, I think it is even sadder when a cheater isn't broken and they just do it because they can. THAT is pathetic. At least if they are broken there is hope they can change.

[beatcuff]

we are all flawed. and it much easier to demonize the offender than to do self-examination. of course that is further challenged by not having 'real' conversations with our SO prior to M. we'd rather live by: 'love will get us thru'.

 

 

ex: some women are attracted to 'bad boys', then are SHOCKED when they do bad boy things.

[Got it]

we are all flawed. and it much easier to demonize the offender than to do self-examination. of course that is further challenged by not having 'real' conversations with our SO prior to M. we'd rather live by: 'love will get us thru'.

 

 

ex: some women are attracted to 'bad boys', then are SHOCKED when they do bad boy things.

 

While, yes this is definitely a factor at times, I think there is also some statute of limitation. If one finds out that their spouse cheated 20 years after marrying the above seems to be a little thin.

 

And what "real" conversations are you talking about?

 

I am all about walking the middle of the road here and I agree to some degree of the first statement but there is still accountability by the person transgressing that has to be owned. And having been a WS, I am not sure what the above would have changed.

 

And yes, while there is ownership on dating someone with bad behavior, this isn't always the case. So what about the majority that fall into the middle where there isn't this track record, or known track record? And still, what about the accountability of the person doing it?

 

I don't agree with the broken prognosis, I do think there are some cases that have other issues that fall into play, and I don't agree that cheaters are the devil reincarnate. But there has to be some basic ownership that one knows that they are doing something contrary to the best interest and the feelings of their primary relationship. There is just no way around that one. I own it, I knew it. We all weigh the pros and cons and do some level of risk/reward analysis before moving forward on decisions. At some point the rewards outweighed the risk when people move forward with having an affair. Now whether they take the time to really deep dive it, I don't know. But these are our decisions to make and own.

[merrmeade]

While, yes this is definitely a factor at times, I think there is also some statute of limitation. If one finds out that their spouse cheated 20 years after marrying the above seems to be a little thin.

 

And what "real" conversations are you talking about?

 

I am all about walking the middle of the road here and I agree to some degree of the first statement but there is still accountability by the person transgressing that has to be owned. And having been a WS, I am not sure what the above would have changed.

 

And yes, while there is ownership on dating someone with bad behavior, this isn't always the case. So what about the majority that fall into the middle where there isn't this track record, or known track record? And still, what about the accountability of the person doing it?

 

I don't agree with the broken prognosis, I do think there are some cases that have other issues that fall into play, and I don't agree that cheaters are the devil reincarnate. But there has to be some basic ownership that one knows that they are doing something contrary to the best interest and the feelings of their primary relationship. There is just no way around that one. I own it, I knew it. We all weigh the pros and cons and do some level of risk/reward analysis before moving forward on decisions. At some point the rewards outweighed the risk when people move forward with having an affair. Now whether they take the time to really deep dive it, I don't know. But these are our decisions to make and own.

[Edited for clarity - I hope]

Well, yes, that's the point, isn't it? It doesn't necessarily merit the "broken" (sociopathic or other -athic, -istic, etc.) label nor is it ordinary or forgettable. There's a little of this truth and a little of that. It's not black and white, and the BS and the marriage were not perfect or unassailable.

 

I certainly agree to that as the BS. But I can do that ONLY because my H gives no excuses for his actions, no "I had an affair but/because...." He did a lot of things wrong in trying to R, including failure to offer full, voluntary disclosure up front, and very few things right. But the few things were major and because he could at least do that, and only hedged a few times about accepting complete responsibility without margin or tried to share blame for his actions, it allowed us to go the next step. I think really and truly "broken" could not have done that.

 

For me and imho, it's about how the parties involved communicate what continues to be important about the A more than getting labels right:

#1 - After the shock and awe wear off a little and everything is known, it matters very much what the WS feels about his actions, their repercussions and why; how he handles events and conversations that arise as a result of the A; how he views himself and the BS's reactions to the A.

 

#2 - It's important that there's an abiding acknowledgement and respect for the impact of the WS's actions on lives.

 

#3 - Perhaps concomitant with #1 (if there is such a development or change in how WS feels about the extramarital events and his role in them) is the importance he puts on communicating these feelings and views (and how well he does so). This would be the empathy factor.

Edited December 12, 2014 by merrmeade
messed up to pt. of obtuse

[merrmeade]

I don't really know about WS/AP marriages, but statistics indicate survival is worse than for WSs & BSs that try to reconcile, according to Shirley Glass' "Not Just Friends." From recent posts in this thread, it sounds like the marriages that were really and truly wrong, a sham or unassailably impossible, thereby justifying (or even garnering others' approval of) an affair, are actually very few and hard to prove.

 

Also, from the posts I've read here, information from APs tends to be more reliable the further away from the affair they get. More recent affair APs sound defensive and their efforts at objectivity, not so impressive - just an observation from a writing standpoint (imo). [Not trying to judge, just saying when they present as APs per se, their 'testimony' is subjective to me, defined by the individuals' feelings and affect and the situations.]

Edited December 12, 2014 by merrmeade

[Got it]

I don't really know about WS/AP marriages, but statistics indicate survival is worse than for WSs & BSs that try to reconcile, according to Shirley Glass' "Not Just Friends." From recent posts in this thread, it sounds like the marriages that were really and truly wrong, a sham or unassailably impossible, thereby justifying (or even garnering others' approval of) an affair, are actually very few and hard to prove.

 

Also, from the posts I've read here, information from APs tends to be more reliable the further away from the affair they get. More recent affair APs sound defensive and their efforts at objectivity, not so impressive - just an observation from a writing standpoint (imo). [Not trying to judge, just saying when they present as APs per se, their 'testimony' is subjective to me, defined by the individuals' feelings and affect and the situations.]

 

I can say, my personal experience, my marriage to my AP has been far healthy than my first marriage. There are multiple reasons for that, some have been conscious changes, some have been a pairing of different personalities, etc.

 

I think it makes a lot of sense that ones in the affair presently will sound a little more defensive. Their relationship is being attacked and the tone isn't always compassionate. There takes a thicken of the skin that needs to happen. And the vitriol towards those actively in affairs is far more severe.

 

For myself, I did not post here when I was in the affair as it wasn't offering the support I wanted. I didn't want to be told I was the devil reincarnate so I posted elsewhere (I was a member here). I had no interest in having to defend myself on a daily basis.

 

So now that we are years removed it is different. My stance on things have never changed. I learned so many things from the affair and it had (and the resulting marriage) the hypocrisy of a lot of happiness on the back of another person's pain. A dichotomy I have never been able to resolve (or can be resolved).

 

I can't speak for others and tend to ignore stats so I only know what I, and my husband, do on a daily basis. For success, for any relationship, it takes both people trying every day to put in their best efforts to nurture, develop, forgive, and learn. We make mistakes, we stumble, but it is the active desire to keep brushing yourself off and trying again. I don't think what the label is, this has to be there by both people.

 

So, sure, many move on from an affair. I do question how many successfully reconcile and who just move things forward. My skepticism was from my parent's account of my mom's affair and from my husband's account of his ex wife's affair.

 

What I have learned is a happy marriage is in the minority and takes far more effort than most people are willing to do, able to do. Complacency is the enemy but it is so easy to slide into. I don't have the answers. All I can do is the best possible each day and stay grateful for the daily blessings.

 

I am not sure what your statement means about a marriage "justifying an affair". Can you explain further?

[autumnnight]

What I have learned is a happy marriage is in the minority and takes far more effort than most people are willing to do, able to do. Complacency is the enemy but it is so easy to slide into. I don't have the answers. All I can do is the best possible each day and stay grateful for the daily blessings.

 

I hope this isn't too off topic but it jumped out at me because it's true. I think the people who get blindsided in the marriage they thought was great often do not get the above and assume coexisting without conflict means a good marriage while their spouse is wasting away from neglect. None of that justifies an affair but I know my former spouse thought as long as you are still in the same house and no one is yelling and you have a nice conversation every once in awhile and the bills are paid you have a good marriage. Cheating would not have been a right answer but his view of our marriage and my view of our marriage weren't even on the same planet. The farther we got into trying to fix things the more apparent it became that he was pretty darn broken even though he didn't cheat.

[truncated]

I don't think anyone would dispute that and that is part of my point.

Is the attempt at monogamy by some people, some people who are not naturally monogamous, part of the issue here.

Society is forcing people who are at heart cheaters to commit to one person, when they are not capable of doing that.

They are not "broken", they are merely following their destiny as per their genes, maybe??

 

 

At one time, this may have been valid, but now this is a cop out.

 

A person ( at least in most Western societies) has the choice of whether or not they wish to marry. There are more single parents, and single people in general. Marrige is no longer an expectation, unless the person makes it that way for themselves.

 

If the perosn only marries because they feel they should even thought hey don't love the person and don't really want to get married, they have issues.

 

When it comes right down to it, there are people who want the benefits of marigae ( stability, understanding, knowing someone will always be there for you, etc.) but who also want to be able to have sex and relationships with others as well. They are poor candidates for marriage, but either don't know themelves well enough to realize that, or they do know and are too selfish to care.

 

There's also too many people who get married becuse they get caught up in the ecitement, control and self centeredness of planning a wedding. After all, it can be pretty heady to be planning a special day costing thousands of dollars that will be all about them. I wonder how many of then would get still get married if it was always just a simple affair.

[elaine567]

At one time, this may have been valid, but now this is a cop out.

 

A person ( at least in most Western societies) has the choice of whether or not they wish to marry. There are more single parents, and single people in general. Marrige is no longer an expectation, unless the person makes it that way for themselves.

 

If the perosn only marries because they feel they should even thought hey don't love the person and don't really want to get married, they have issues.

 

When it comes right down to it, there are people who want the benefits of marigae ( stability, understanding, knowing someone will always be there for you, etc.) but who also want to be able to have sex and relationships with others as well. They are poor candidates for marriage, but either don't know themelves well enough to realize that, or they do know and are too selfish to care.

 

There's also too many people who get married becuse they get caught up in the ecitement, control and self centeredness of planning a wedding. After all, it can be pretty heady to be planning a special day costing thousands of dollars that will be all about them. I wonder how many of then would get still get married if it was always just a simple affair.

 

 

There is actually a bit of a boom in marriages in the UK, 2012 figures saw the biggest rise since the surge in weddings when British servicemen returned from war in 1945.

 

But I did not mention marriage, I spoke about monogamy, slightly different. Society may have backed off a little from marriage but not from monogamy.

[DKT3]

I can say, my personal experience, my marriage to my AP has been far healthy than my first marriage. There are multiple reasons for that, some have been conscious changes, some have been a pairing of different personalities, etc.

 

I think it makes a lot of sense that ones in the affair presently will sound a little more defensive. Their relationship is being attacked and the tone isn't always compassionate. There takes a thicken of the skin that needs to happen. And the vitriol towards those actively in affairs is far more severe.

 

For myself, I did not post here when I was in the affair as it wasn't offering the support I wanted. I didn't want to be told I was the devil reincarnate so I posted elsewhere (I was a member here). I had no interest in having to defend myself on a daily basis.

 

So now that we are years removed it is different. My stance on things have never changed. I learned so many things from the affair and it had (and the resulting marriage) the hypocrisy of a lot of happiness on the back of another person's pain. A dichotomy I have never been able to resolve (or can be resolved).

 

I can't speak for others and tend to ignore stats so I only know what I, and my husband, do on a daily basis. For success, for any relationship, it takes both people trying every day to put in their best efforts to nurture, develop, forgive, and learn. We make mistakes, we stumble, but it is the active desire to keep brushing yourself off and trying again. I don't think what the label is, this has to be there by both people.

 

So, sure, many move on from an affair. I do question how many successfully reconcile and who just move things forward. My skepticism was from my parent's account of my mom's affair and from my husband's account of his ex wife's affair.

 

What I have learned is a happy marriage is in the minority and takes far more effort than most people are willing to do, able to do. Complacency is the enemy but it is so easy to slide into. I don't have the answers. All I can do is the best possible each day and stay grateful for the daily blessings.

 

I am not sure what your statement means about a marriage "justifying an affair". Can you explain further?

 

Its good that you two are happy. With that said, that desire and urge for the kind of excitement that can only be found in an adulterous affair is still there. Dormant? Maybe. Having an affair isn't about pairing of personalities or being complacent. If it were the case infidelity would ravish almost every relationship ever. Its deeper and much more personal. Affair are never because the marriage is bad, that's what divorce is caused by. Affairs are from selfishness and indifference towards the spouse or overall lack of respect. I don't see that you or your husband understand that, and it seems that you two continue to blame things outside of your control. This make it highly likely that it will be repeated.

[elaine567]

Its good that you two are happy. With that said, that desire and urge for the kind of excitement that can only be found in an adulterous affair is still there. Dormant? Maybe. Having an affair isn't about pairing of personalities or being complacent. If it were the case infidelity would ravish almost every relationship ever. Its deeper and much more personal. Affair are never because the marriage is bad, that's what divorce is caused by. Affairs are from selfishness and indifference towards the spouse or overall lack of respect. I don't see that you or your husband understand that, and it seems that you two continue to blame things outside of your control. This make it highly likely that it will be repeated.

 

YOU don't know that.

Assumptions abound

You are merely raining on Got It's parade it appears. WHY?

[Got it]

Its good that you two are happy. With that said, that desire and urge for the kind of excitement that can only be found in an adulterous affair is still there. Dormant? Maybe. Having an affair isn't about pairing of personalities or being complacent. If it were the case infidelity would ravish almost every relationship ever. Its deeper and much more personal. Affair are never because the marriage is bad, that's what divorce is caused by. Affairs are from selfishness and indifference towards the spouse or overall lack of respect. I don't see that you or your husband understand that, and it seems that you two continue to blame things outside of your control. This make it highly likely that it will be repeated.

 

Really? Well then you are welcome to your opinion but I do think your reading comprehension is off. Light years off. Nothing you wrote is true for anything I said.

 

But thank you so much for your oh so well educated opinion.

[Got it]

YOU don't know that.

Assumptions abound

You are merely raining on Got It's parade it appears. WHY?

 

Really? Do you need it spelled out? I think if you read DK the answer is ABUNDANTLY clear.

 

No worries, take what you need ignore the rest.

 

Some times "stories" like mine just rub people the wrong way. For any part of it to be true then it puts so many beliefs on their heads. So it must be, and must stay, sordid, wrong, and toxic. Because nothing remotely good, in any way shape or form can ever come from an affair. Happiness cannot grow. The sides must be, and must stay, delineated, the people evil, and the actions always bad. And no matter what is ever stated, if one does not stay with the BS then everything else is nonexistent. You are stuck, frozen in time, forever the evil one.

 

To each their own.

[elaine567]

Really? Do you need it spelled out? I think if you read DK the answer is ABUNDANTLY clear.

 

No worries, take what you need ignore the rest.

 

Some times "stories" like mine just rub people the wrong way. For any part of it to be true then it puts so many beliefs on their heads. So it must be, and must stay, sordid, wrong, and toxic. Because nothing remotely good, in any way shape or form can ever come from an affair. Happiness cannot grow. The sides must be, and must stay, delineated, the people evil, and the actions always bad. And no matter what is ever stated, if one does not stay with the BS then everything else is nonexistent. You are stuck, frozen in time, forever the evil one.

 

To each their own.

 

Rhetorical question.

[DKT3]

Got you say you don't look at stats or care about them, truth is your relationship is high risk and you know that stats support that which is why you made the comment here as well as on other threads. The stats say your relationship is doomed. I understand that, so is mine. The difference is we understand and accept the likely pitfalls we don't ignore those issues. I say its an uphill battle because you seem to ignore things. Your relationship has nothing to do with mine, so suggesting that you married your MM somehow puts me on edge or sways my thoughts about the situation is off.

 

Elaine no where did I speak in absolutes. So I'm not sure what part your calling "assumption" I assume nothing, I going from studies I've read and Got its past posts.

[Got it]

Got you say you don't look at stats or care about them, truth is your relationship is high risk and you know that stats support that which is why you made the comment here as well as on other threads. The stats say your relationship is doomed. I understand that, so is mine. The difference is we understand and accept the likely pitfalls we don't ignore those issues. I say its an uphill battle because you seem to ignore things. Your relationship has nothing to do with mine, so suggesting that you married your MM somehow puts me on edge or sways my thoughts about the situation is off.

 

Elaine no where did I speak in absolutes. So I'm not sure what part your calling "assumption" I assume nothing, I going from studies I've read and Got its past posts.

 

DK - if we are hythosizing on each other, then I would suggest really looking into why someone is still so focused on their WS' affair at this point in one's relationship to post, nay I say seemingly obsess, on the subject of affairs.

 

I would also surmise, that since I have posted significantly less than you have, and even with that can't know what your real life is like. I feel it is safe to not try and speculate on more than the minimal and discussing the topics not the people and my assumptions and future telling on their lives.

 

If you let stats run your life, you will never get out of bed. The stats aren't in your favor to not die in a car crash, get dementia from plastic, or have a heart attack from red meat.

 

Since I post minimally about my actual relationship good luck in your speculations. But I am flatter you are so interested. I guess I have a stalker?

 

Again, since you seem to focus on my posts, why not remove your prejudices and judgments and actually read what I have written. If you do, it will disprove much of what you have written. Or not. Whatever. You have your agenda.

[DKT3]

DK - if we are hythosizing on each other, then I would suggest really looking into why someone is still so focused on their WS' affair at this point in one's relationship to post, nay I say seemingly obsess, on the subject of affairs.

 

I would also surmise, that since I have posted significantly less than you have, and even with that can't know what your real life is like. I feel it is safe to not try and speculate on more than the minimal and discussing the topics not the people and my assumptions and future telling on their lives.

 

If you let stats run your life, you will never get out of bed. The stats aren't in your favor to not die in a car crash, get dementia from plastic, or have a heart attack from red meat.

 

Since I post minimally about my actual relationship good luck in your speculations. But I am flatter you are so interested. I guess I have a stalker?

 

Again, since you seem to focus on my posts, why not remove your prejudices and judgments and actually read what I have written. If you do, it will disprove much of what you have written. Or not. Whatever. You have your agenda.

 

Stalker? Yeah not interested. I do have a pretty good memory.

 

Take all the shots you like if it makes you feel better. Ignoring things doesn't make them go away.

 

Good day

[2.50 a gallon]

"Affairs are never because the marriage is bad"

 

 

Of the MW that I had sex with, it was the selfishness of the husband that drove them to my bed. They were in marriages in which their husbands hardly paid them any attention, other than what's for dinner and did you get the laundry done. They were placed in the position of being the cook, maid and nanny of the children, while the H was off doing his thing. The few times we had sex helped them maintain their sanity.

[autumnnight]

"Affairs are never because the marriage is bad"

 

I'll modify this to make it actually factual.

 

The choice to have an affair is the responsibility of the cheater. In more cases than some are willing to see, a person becomes vulnerable to an affair because they feel terribly neglected and lonely in their marriage for one or more reasons. The ANSWER to this loneliness is to work with their spouse to try to fix it, and if their spouse isn't willing to care for the marriage together, then leave.

 

So no, a bad marriage doesn't make someone cheat. Cheating is a choice. But if one neglects, belitttles, ignores, or withhold intimacy from their partner on a consistent basis, that partner IS going to become vulnerable. And like it or not, the FACT is that the ignoring spouse IS responsible for that. But again, the answer is to try to work on the marriage, and if the ignoring partner proves to entitled and selfish themselves to do that, then leave. But don't cheat.

[beatcuff]

And what "real" conversations are you talking about?

 

 

an easy one is money: saver v spender.

 

 

but how many times do you see a spouse act differently with same sex friends v spouse. are they just trying to fit in or behaving differently with the spouse. how would a spouse even know. and to this thread why can't they act themselves. the cheater is not broken, communication is. after all my favorite quote "a cheater is always a cheater" begs the question then why didn't you know before they --- well --- cheated.

 

 

so we act as the spouse expects or we think they expect us. then 'rug sweep' our real feelings in a basic bargaining: spouse is better than alone. and it works, very well for some and for others for a period of time until.......

 

 

the evidence is here right on this board: exhibit A: how many persons find out about an A after it has gone on months. exhibit B: spouse leaves and other is at a loss for why. exhibit C: my friends knew/I was the last to know.

 

 

but to communicate has it's risk. your thoughts may now have to compete with spouses insecurities. it also means you have to work on your M (to get back on track). it is much easier to 'punt' and drift until you are forced to deal with it, if ever.

[merrmeade]

I want to try to fix this on principle, if possible. I think the points were valid and but got clouded with personal interest.

 

History:

There was a lot of talk about how messed up a marriage has to be to justify an affair - something like that - and I suggested maybe there were really very few like that. I asked off-handedly about marriages between APs lasting and wrote some observations about AP defensiveness regarding their affairs, noting they didn't seem to show as much objectivity when talking about their situations.

 

By objectivity, I meant (but didn't say exactly) about the people affected by the affair, including themselves - the BS, WS, OM/W mainly - how they felt, why, what they knew about the other people and their relationships and how unadulterated that knowledge was.

 

I've read books and lots of posts. I was a betrayed spouse. Everyone agrees that affairs are wrong because people are lying, pretending and committing adultery and keeping it secret from someone else. Everyone agrees that discovery of an affair by a clueless spouse is extremely painful, sometimes causing shock and PTSD, for a very long time usually. The WS often feels bad about it depending on the outcome.

 

<off-topic commentary redacted>

 

The main point was that people in an affair are in a high ("fog") and don't think as much about the wrong they're doing or the pain they're causing. Just a little. It's shocking when they express simply their right to sympathy and understanding. It's weird that they were in an affair at one point and just went on leading a normal life with expectations of respect and dignity from people like the ones they'd hurt and don't think that's fair. Anyway, the good part is that I understand better how people doing things that hurt others think - very little.

Edited December 18, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator