Risk of marriage vs expectation of the affair

[lovinDKT3]

I can see the point I think finally. Anytime a spouse (whether BS OR WS) thinks of themselves instead of their partner, that can be described as wayward thinking. Correct? You don't have to have actually HAD an affair to have wayward thinking. Otherwise we are just playing the "My selfish thinking is not as bad as your selfish thinking" game.

 

Selfish, this isn't a shot at you. I think when a WS wants to believe that the affair just happened or they didn't go looking for it, they have a hard time seeing the behaviour that led to the affair as wayward thinking or behaviour. Which also means that have a hard time seeing it after. I was there too. After years of therapy I had my aha moment were I finally saw how my behavior was leading me towards an affair. Before this I could accept it. It would have meant that I was 100% responsible. I know many WS's say it, but I don't know how many really believe it. Its often "I accept responsiblity, BUT". As my therapist said, "the BUT just wiped out what you said before it"

 

Accepting it means in part understanding how you got there. No wayward spouse just jumps in bed with another person. You get there by not accepting the behaviours and small steps your taking as leading to it.

[Red123]

Selfish, this isn't a shot at you. I think when a WS wants to believe that the affair just happened or they didn't go looking for it, they have a hard time seeing the behaviour that led to the affair as wayward thinking or behaviour. Which also means that have a hard time seeing it after. I was there too. After years of therapy I had my aha moment were I finally saw how my behavior was leading me towards an affair. Before this I could accept it. It would have meant that I was 100% responsible. I know many WS's say it, but I don't know how many really believe it. Its often "I accept responsiblity, BUT". As my therapist said, "the BUT just wiped out what you said before it"

 

Accepting it means in part understanding how you got there. No wayward spouse just jumps in bed with another person. You get there by not accepting the behaviours and small steps your taking as leading to it.

 

This is really insightful. As a BS I too have looked back and recognized how my own behaviour prior to his A made it a lot easier for it to take place. I don't take responsibility for the A but I know that leading up to it our communication was gone and I am a big reason for that. It really is easy to see once you can step back from it, hindsight is so much easier to see those small steps that we both took.

[Selfish]

Selfish, this isn't a shot at you. I think when a WS wants to believe that the affair just happened or they didn't go looking for it, they have a hard time seeing the behaviour that led to the affair as wayward thinking or behaviour. Which also means that have a hard time seeing it after. I was there too. After years of therapy I had my aha moment were I finally saw how my behavior was leading me towards an affair. Before this I could accept it. It would have meant that I was 100% responsible. I know many WS's say it, but I don't know how many really believe it. Its often "I accept responsiblity, BUT". As my therapist said, "the BUT just wiped out what you said before it"

 

Accepting it means in part understanding how you got there. No wayward spouse just jumps in bed with another person. You get there by not accepting the behaviours and small steps your taking as leading to it.

This is all true and nothing I disagree with except for your narrowminded view that one must have been "looking for an affair" in order to have one. Disregarding the very fact that "looking for an affair" is generally accepted by many people as actively seeking an affair like those that use AM or make the decision to cheat not based on opportunity but want to cheat and the keep their eyes open for the opportunity. A little trip to AM would show just how common this is. My AP was always looking for an affair. He kept his eyes open for opportunity and did not turn it down. I have used a good job analogy that has been completely ignored because, well, where is the fun in that? You think you are somehow in a more "advanced" place of leaving the affair behind because we disagree on this. And "years of therapy" have helped you see the light.

 

I can tell you this. My unwillingness to make the bed had nothing to do with my cheating. What did have to do with my cheating was... cheating. And what would still be cheater thinking on my part would be sluffing it off as no big deal, or still giving trickle truth or gaslighting about it. Or thinking I could still have close guy friends. Poor boundaries with males.

 

Perhaps you could use some things and say it is wayward-like/cheater-like thinking (and that could be given to a BS or a WS). Like not taking responsibility for ones actions (non affair related). But in order for a marriage to move towards not being about the affair, when does "wayward/cheater thinking" end and it becomes normal selfish behaviour that one acknoweldges and works on changing? When will your mistakes and even just thinking that differs from Dk become unrelated to you engaging in a PA? Where is the line?

 

That goes for anyone who agree that

 

former Wayward/cheater+selfish action = Wayward/cheater thinking

Betrayed spouse/spouse +selfish action = selfish thinking.

 

When does that end?

[Zenstudent]

I think you could consider this discussione an attempt to establish some kind of safety, knowing that the WS is in fact working on a change in their thought patterns and behaviour. It's hard to feel safe with a person if you get the feeling that they will only work on thought patterns once they're in the middle of an affair and it's way too late.

 

Also; I've met a lot of selfish people who didn't cheat, but I have yet to experience a cheater who doesn't appear to be selfish.

 

That's why, in my mind, it makes sense to work on the selfish behaviour.

[fellini]

Again I think talking about wayward thinking has to assume "already a wayward", already crossing boundaries and either REFUSING to reflect on them or sweeping them aside by self delusional thoughts like, "I have this under control."

 

Someone who finds their boundaries have been crossed, (actively or by allowing another to do so without using communication to tell that person not to continue) and who reflects upon that and says... "wait a minute, this is not where I want to go", is not wayward thinking. That is just someone who experiences a boundary being broken and acts accordingly.

 

For me logically, wayward thinking is any thinking which is aimed at maintaining boundary crossing (regardless of how small the steps are) including rewriting what was once a boundary (it's not cool to allow single members of the opposite sex to give you a long lingering hug at the office, for example) by saying, no big deal, he likes to hug women. It's harmless, but knowing in the back of your mind you kind of liked it and hopes he does it again.

 

Wayward thinking is always about response/interpretation of actions.

[AlwaysGrowing]

One does not have to wear the WS hat badge to have wayward thinking.

 

For myself, wayward thinking involves those little justifications one deploys to dismiss what one knows is hurtful thoughts/actions so one can keep the "good guy" hat badge.

 

If I am not mistaken DK was held to the fire in regard to actions/thinking he had. Actions that many felt was disrespectful to LovinDK. Actions that could be labeled wayward thinking.

 

I think wayward thinking can be on a spectrum, and that everyone is capable of wayward thinking.

[lovinDKT3]

This is all true and nothing I disagree with except for your narrowminded view that one must have been "looking for an affair" in order to have one. Disregarding the very fact that "looking for an affair" is generally accepted by many people as actively seeking an affair like those that use AM or make the decision to cheat not based on opportunity but want to cheat and the keep their eyes open for the opportunity. A little trip to AM would show just how common this is. My AP was always looking for an affair. He kept his eyes open for opportunity and did not turn it down. I have used a good job analogy that has been completely ignored because, well, where is the fun in that? You think you are somehow in a more "advanced" place of leaving the affair behind because we disagree on this. And "years of therapy" have helped you see the light.

 

I can tell you this. My unwillingness to make the bed had nothing to do with my cheating. What did have to do with my cheating was... cheating. And what would still be cheater thinking on my part would be sluffing it off as no big deal, or still giving trickle truth or gaslighting about it. Or thinking I could still have close guy friends. Poor boundaries with males.

 

Perhaps you could use some things and say it is wayward-like/cheater-like thinking (and that could be given to a BS or a WS). Like not taking responsibility for ones actions (non affair related). But in order for a marriage to move towards not being about the affair, when does "wayward/cheater thinking" end and it becomes normal selfish behaviour that one acknoweldges and works on changing? When will your mistakes and even just thinking that differs from Dk become unrelated to you engaging in a PA? Where is the line?

 

That goes for anyone who agree that

 

former Wayward/cheater+selfish action = Wayward/cheater thinking

Betrayed spouse/spouse +selfish action = selfish thinking.

 

When does that end?

We've had the discussion about looking for the affair, we will never agree it seems. Its clear you looked for the affair, why that is so hard for you to admit or accept is beyond me. So we progress past it, and agree to disagree.

 

Our relationship is so much more then the affair. It really is a small part. In fact we spend more time talking about posters and threads here then we do about the affair.

 

Again, I respect DKT's feelings and have not right to tell him how he should view my actions or the impact they have on him. If he feels my actions are wayward then its how he feels and his right.

 

I get the impression that you view him as some insecure man running around blaming all my actions on wayward thinking. That isn't who he is. If it were, I wouldn't be here. He doesn't punish me for the affair. He treats me with great respect, shows me love and attention and is a great father. What else could I ask for?

[Ronni_W]

Again, I respect DKT's feelings and have not right to tell him how he should view my actions or the impact they have on him. If he feels my actions are wayward then its how he feels and his right.

lovin,

I do agree with you that it is DKT's free will choice on how he perceives and what he believes.

But, if his perception and beliefs are based on distortions or untruths, then his feelings are based on distortions and untruths, which means that there is no 'validation' or 'justification' for his feelings.

 

I mean. It's the same for me or any other person -- "what I feel is what I feel" -- but that does not mean that it's okay for me to just rest on my feelings...precisely because, what if the perceptions, beliefs and thoughts that give rise to my feelings are distorted, unrealistic, inaccurate?

 

To be honest, when I read about the Netflix-thing, my first thought was, "OMG...what kind of eggshells is lovin walking on, these days? How awful must that be, for her?"

NOT that this is YOUR truth, or life, or life experience...only that it was my thought when I read DKT's recounting of the incident.

 

Yes, you made a mistake and had an affair. I get that part. AND I get that it didn't happen in a vacuum. AND your doing that that does not necessarily and/or automatically validate or justify DKT's subsequent feelings, perceptions, beliefs.

 

I guess...you have decided/chosen to not question anything that underlies his feelings. His feelings now reign supreme. I guess...I really want it to be that you are not living on eggshells, subject his (unexamined, potentially distorted) feelings.

[lovinDKT3]

lovin,

I do agree with you that it is DKT's free will choice on how he perceives and what he believes.

But, if his perception and beliefs are based on distortions or untruths, then his feelings are based on distortions and untruths, which means that there is no 'validation' or 'justification' for his feelings.

 

I mean. It's the same for me or any other person -- "what I feel is what I feel" -- but that does not mean that it's okay for me to just rest on my feelings...precisely because, what if the perceptions, beliefs and thoughts that give rise to my feelings are distorted, unrealistic, inaccurate?

 

To be honest, when I read about the Netflix-thing, my first thought was, "OMG...what kind of eggshells is lovin walking on, these days? How awful must that be, for her?"

NOT that this is YOUR truth, or life, or life experience...only that it was my thought when I read DKT's recounting of the incident.

 

Yes, you made a mistake and had an affair. I get that part. AND I get that it didn't happen in a vacuum. AND your doing that that does not necessarily and/or automatically validate or justify DKT's subsequent feelings, perceptions, beliefs.

 

I guess...you have decided/chosen to not question anything that underlies his feelings. His feelings now reign supreme. I guess...I really want it to be that you are not living on eggshells, subject his (unexamined, potentially distorted) feelings.

 

OH NO, I would never walk on eggshells for any man in any situation. The truth is DKT has spoiled me throughout our history. I have posted here about the transition from him allowing me to maintain the behaviors from before. He does call me on it now, where as before he would just allow it, even if that meant crossing his lines or not showing him respect. It was one of the things that lead us to divorce.

 

We now accept and address those issues head on from both sides. I know its not healthy that he allowed me to have that princess attitude that dominated our relationship before the affair, and still shows itself here and again now. He has worked on a lot, given up a lot. Some because I demanded it, most because he understands that both of us fu cked it up the first time around.

[Ronni_W]

I appreciate you taking the time, lovin. And, even more so that you took my post in the spirit I intended.

Not that "my fears for lovin" has anything to do with anything <lol @ the thought of that >...but I am glad for the both of you.

 

Wishing you and yours nothing but love, joy and happiness!

[fellini]

I think like Ronnie, we have to be careful with throwing out a comment like "his feelings are reality" which later, I saw changed more precisely, and accurately to "his feelings are HIS reality".

 

But Ronnie is correct that if the input was incorrectly understood, then the outcome is equally incorrect (although it forms the "reality" of the person it is happening to).

 

It seems to me that in a marriage one of the things that is implicit in a union is to understand that shared experiences do not amount to shared understandings.

 

If I forget to put the car keys back in the dish by the door, I am being forgetful.

 

If my WS does the same, she is being narcissistic?

 

Certainly my "reality" allows me to do this. But we cannot even talk about a "true" reality outside of our impressions of what is true. A union is a sharing of intimacy and complicity, and probably one of most difficult seas to navigate is the sea of complicity where it involves our personal interpretations about those who share our space, especially in terms of emotional attachements to meanings

[DKT3]

lovin,

I do agree with you that it is DKT's free will choice on how he perceives and what he believes.

But, if his perception and beliefs are based on distortions or untruths, then his feelings are based on distortions and untruths, which means that there is no 'validation' or 'justification' for his feelings.

 

I mean. It's the same for me or any other person -- "what I feel is what I feel" -- but that does not mean that it's okay for me to just rest on my feelings...precisely because, what if the perceptions, beliefs and thoughts that give rise to my feelings are distorted, unrealistic, inaccurate?

 

To be honest, when I read about the Netflix-thing, my first thought was, "OMG...what kind of eggshells is lovin walking on, these days? How awful must that be, for her?"

NOT that this is YOUR truth, or life, or life experience...only that it was my thought when I read DKT's recounting of the incident.

 

Yes, you made a mistake and had an affair. I get that part. AND I get that it didn't happen in a vacuum. AND your doing that that does not necessarily and/or automatically validate or justify DKT's subsequent feelings, perceptions, beliefs.

 

I guess...you have decided/chosen to not question anything that underlies his feelings. His feelings now reign supreme. I guess...I really want it to be that you are not living on eggshells, subject his (unexamined, potentially distorted) feelings.

 

Walking on eggshells? That actually made me laugh. I don't get that our true relationship dynamic is coming through here. If seems that many posters see me as some dominate orge who imposes my will on lovin. What we are is two alpha's wisely picking our battles. In our almost 25 year history we've learned when and where to push. Of the two I'm more willing to "back down" then she is.

 

The netflix thing was me stating that I was proud of her, and was not taken here for what it was intented. The wayward thinking part of it for me wasn't that she hadn't done it. It was the comment that because she didn't watch it, it was less important. That thinking coming from someone who had an affair in my opinion is dangerous. She caught it without me saying anything for that I'm proud of her.