Risk of marriage vs expectation of the affair

[fellini]

If it were merely as simple as you claim that you have your beliefs and opinions and you are entitled to them, then you would have given me the same rights rather than insulting me in a public forum in another thread.

 

The fact is you do not. End of story.

 

Wow - you really seem to have a desperate need to psychoanalyze me. I don't know why but - whatever.

 

So, here's the simple fact: I stated what I believe. You have your belief's and opinions and you are entitled to them. Now leave me alone.

[DKT3]

It does matter.

 

 

BH's differ in how much they can accept what their WW did with the OM.

 

 

Some can accept nothing.

 

 

Some can accept what ever happened because no matter what happened the BH will say well it could of been worst. Oral, ok could of been worse, Sex, could if been worse, knocked up by the OM it could of been worse twins.

 

 

As to withholding details and the WW can not be forced to reveal them. As stubborn as the WW will be on this it will never remove the BH's need to know the full truth. Thirty years later BH's will still need their questions answered.

 

 

Lack of honesty by the WW will keep a wall between them and their BH's for the rest of their marriages/lives. This insanity will be there forever because the WW refuses to be truthful so the BH can leave the affair in the past.

 

So, now your telling ME what matters to ME?

 

2 times or 200 times I was betrayed and lied to. 2 times or 200 times it wasn't a mistake or a drunken one off. 2 times or 200 times it was totally disrespectful and took planning on her part, it was her intent, she got up that morning planning her day with him slotted in. 2 times or 200 times that marriage ended in divorce. It doesn't matter the number, the damage was done.

[drifter777]

Yes there will be enough when the BH gets as much of the whole story from his WW that he wants. The problem is when the WW is allowed to censor what the BH gets to know.

 

 

I will say this once the BH has all of his questions answered then it is time to stop talking about the affair with the WW.

And for many BH's this time never comes. They will never be satisfied they know enough. Even if somehow they do know everything - they will never believe it.

[drifter777]

If it were merely as simple as you claim that you have your beliefs and opinions and you are entitled to them, then you would have given me the same rights rather than insulting me in a public forum in another thread.

 

The fact is you do not. End of story.

I'm glad you felt insulted because I think you give very, very poor advice. This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it. And you absolutely are entitled to your opinions. I just think you feel insulted when I bluntly disagree with you.

[katielee]

What is the point?

 

 

In general:

 

 

Many WW's stay married to their BH after the affair. While always doing damage control trying to take most of the affair information to their grave.

 

 

.

 

where do you get these generalizations road? I didn't.

And my husband can talk to me, his WW, anytime he wants about my affair. Questions or no questions.

[DKT3]

Drifter and road, I will admit I understand what you two are talking about. However, not all WW's continue to display "wayward" behavior.

 

Lovin proved to me over a long period of time that she is remorseful. I believe that, I believe her. She has been willing to answer any questions I have, she doesn't shy away. She goes above and beyond to make me feel comfortable and doesn't do things that would have me question her.

 

That is how I know when she says it wasn't a sexually charged affair I believe her.

[Red123]

It's is ok to believe that a wayward has changed. If their actions show they have then it's probably the case. Some people will never believe they have changed regardless of what the wayward does. You know her, we don't, believe your truth! I wish you both the best, as a BS, when I read her posts I believe her too.

[Spark1111]

I too was obsessed with why. I'm a former journalist, so I'm supposed to be.

 

I also pride myself on my keen observations of others.

 

Needless to say, discovering my fWH's promise of a future via a text to a woman disguised as a man on his phone...first led me to believe he needed to come out of the closet , but then set my perception of my own reality back a millennium...for about three years.

 

There is no why in many an affair. Period.

 

It starts out as fun flirtation, leads to attraction, and in a million, small, unthought steps, becomes the all-day addiction.

 

Why cocaine? Why not heroin?

 

No addict can answer these questions; they can talk of the stupid steps that led up to it, the daily quest for the "feel good" the risk, the downfall, the aftermath.

 

but why? They may not know, so how can they answer logically what had no basis in logic at all.

 

I gave my H carte blanche to with his soul mate.

 

it was SURPRISE the absolute last thing he wanted.

 

It's why I wound up at LS.

[road]

where do you get these generalizations road? I didn't.

And my husband can talk to me, his WW, anytime he wants about my affair. Questions or no questions.

 

 

 

Years of reading on forums.

 

 

And never said what you did.

[atreides]

((DKT))

 

I only read a few posts, lots of arguing going on

 

Anyway, based on your first post and the one on this page, you have your answer.

 

First: The MC is right, it is chasing a rabbit down the hole, sometimes, actually many times there is no deep meaning but simple, superfluous and idiotic reasons... or "just because."

 

Second: you said it above:

 

Lovin proved to me over a long period of time that she is remorseful. I believe that, I believe her. She has been willing to answer any questions I have, she doesn't shy away. She goes above and beyond to make me feel comfortable and doesn't do things that would have me question her.

 

That is how I know when she says it wasn't a sexually charged affair I believe her.

 

Would it matter with the same remorse and willingness to right her wrongs if it were "charged?"

 

I think not, you know exactly what the MC meant and at the same time, it is ok even at this point to still struggle with the past. But i think you are on the last stretch of road and well on your way to a great future.

Edited December 11, 2014 by atreides

[DKT3]

((DKT))

 

I only read a few posts, lots of arguing going on

 

Anyway, based on your first post and the one on this page, you have your answer.

 

First: The MC is right, it is chasing a rabbit down the hole, sometimes, actually many times there is no deep meaning but simple, superfluous and idiotic reasons... or "just because."

 

Second: you said it above:

 

 

 

Would it matter with the same remorse and willingness to right her wrongs if it were "charged?"

 

I think not, you know exactly what the MC meant and at the same time, it is ok even at this point to still struggle with the past. But i think you are on the last stretch of road and well on your way to a great future.

 

I agree. My issue isn't with how sexual the affair was. I was answering road as to why and how I believe her.

 

For me, I look at her actions and thought process. And there is improvement there even above pre affair.

 

Ex: last week I had asked her to renew netflicks she agreed. Then the other day I asked had she done it. She said "I don't watch it so it wasn't really on my mind" before I could say anything she said "that was wrong, I shouldn't have said that I'm sorry" before the affair she would have dug in and a fight would have followed. It seems simple, but its small things that build. Its wayward thinking.

[Rainbowlove]

Ex: last week I had asked her to renew netflicks she agreed. Then the other day I asked had she done it. She said "I don't watch it so it wasn't really on my mind" before I could say anything she said "that was wrong, I shouldn't have said that I'm sorry" before the affair she would have dug in and a fight would have followed. It seems simple, but its small things that build. Its wayward thinking.

 

Exactly. She is experiencing what I call the "light bulb" moments that led to wayward thinking and she can identify them and correct them. Bravo to you both. Those moments are huge to recovery and healing as an individual and the couple.

[Selfish]

I agree. My issue isn't with how sexual the affair was. I was answering road as to why and how I believe her.

 

For me, I look at her actions and thought process. And there is improvement there even above pre affair.

 

Ex: last week I had asked her to renew netflicks she agreed. Then the other day I asked had she done it. She said "I don't watch it so it wasn't really on my mind" before I could say anything she said "that was wrong, I shouldn't have said that I'm sorry" before the affair she would have dug in and a fight would have followed. It seems simple, but its small things that build. Its wayward thinking.

 

Ummm... exactly how is this wayward thinking? Wayward thinking is justifying banging another dude behind your back. That is just normal selfish thinking that every single married couple does. So unless you are willing to tell us what "wayward" thinking you have done I think it is sort of cliche to say every little thing she does wrong is wayward thinking. That is saying that everything she did wrong before the affair was why she cheated. But according to your story she justified her affair because you were away a lot and wouldn't listen to her wanting you home more and it was a big FU. And she never thought you would leave. Or people who think they deserve a little extra fun, or what the BS doesn't know doesn't hurt them. or... you get my drift.

 

This is just normal marital bump that since she has cheated on year you titled "wayward" thinking. My husband does that A LOT. He gets defensive about forgetting something or makes up and excuse. He does call him self on it now but I would never say he has "wayward" thinking. Every single spouse out there then would have "wayward" thinking. Or does it only apply to the person who cheats.

 

Yes, putting yourself before your spouse all the time creates problems. But we have all done it. and not everyone who does is going to cheat. It isn't wayward thinking but rather just selfish human thinking. It doesn't mean someone is going to go jump in the sack with someone else. And it is a huge leap to go from that to cheating. A lot more is involved than that.

 

I know she will agree with you. She has to because you hold the power in the relationship still. And she wouldn't to show any "wayward" thinking. BUt I think it would benefit you if you separated true "wayward" thinking from just a regular marital bump. (Even if she hadn't apologized it was still just a bump).

 

my two cents

[DKT3]

Ummm... exactly how is this wayward thinking? Wayward thinking is justifying banging another dude behind your back. That is just normal selfish thinking that every single married couple does. So unless you are willing to tell us what "wayward" thinking you have done I think it is sort of cliche to say every little thing she does wrong is wayward thinking. That is saying that everything she did wrong before the affair was why she cheated. But according to your story she justified her affair because you were away a lot and wouldn't listen to her wanting you home more and it was a big FU. And she never thought you would leave. Or people who think they deserve a little extra fun, or what the BS doesn't know doesn't hurt them. or... you get my drift.

 

This is just normal marital bump that since she has cheated on year you titled "wayward" thinking. My husband does that A LOT. He gets defensive about forgetting something or makes up and excuse. He does call him self on it now but I would never say he has "wayward" thinking. Every single spouse out there then would have "wayward" thinking. Or does it only apply to the person who cheats.

 

Yes, putting yourself before your spouse all the time creates problems. But we have all done it. and not everyone who does is going to cheat. It isn't wayward thinking but rather just selfish human thinking. It doesn't mean someone is going to go jump in the sack with someone else. And it is a huge leap to go from that to cheating. A lot more is involved than that.

 

I know she will agree with you. She has to because you hold the power in the relationship still. And she wouldn't to show any "wayward" thinking. BUt I think it would benefit you if you separated true "wayward" thinking from just a regular marital bump. (Even if she hadn't apologized it was still just a bump).

 

my two cents

 

What is it with you and this power business? Lovin is a true alpha female and she more then holds her own. My condo gone (even sold most of my stuff without me knowing), my bike gone (I loved that bike). I changed careers, changed many of my friends. Cut out a few activities all because it was things she needed from me to make this relationship work. I have my expectations of her as well. This isn't about power its about compromise. We both have the same options, stay and make it work or leave. There is no power struggle here. I'm not naive, I understand that most relationship are somewhat controlled by the partner who cares less about it ending. The thing is like everything in a relationship its shifting sands. The key is not to have both care less at the same time.

 

There is a difference between saying "oh I forgot, I got busy" and "it wasn't important to me so I didn't do it". The latter is wayward thinking, the kinds of thoughts that make infidelity an option.

 

As far as her being in agreement with me, well maybe it appears that way on the forum. I've had my a$$ ripped more then a few times for what I've posted here, in IRL. She is far from some weak whinny woman trying to cling to me while accepting whatever I throw at her. Frankly, your suggesting it is old.

[Selfish]

What is it with you and this power business? Lovin is a true alpha female and she more then holds her own. My condo gone (even sold most of my stuff without me knowing), my bike gone (I loved that bike). I changed careers, changed many of my friends. Cut out a few activities all because it was things she needed from me to make this relationship work. I have my expectations of her as well. This isn't about power its about compromise. We both have the same options, stay and make it work or leave. There is no power struggle here. I'm not naive, I understand that most relationship are somewhat controlled by the partner who cares less about it ending. The thing is like everything in a relationship its shifting sands. The key is not to have both care less at the same time.

 

There is a difference between saying "oh I forgot, I got busy" and "it wasn't important to me so I didn't do it". The latter is wayward thinking, the kinds of thoughts that make infidelity an option.

 

As far as her being in agreement with me, well maybe it appears that way on the forum. I've had my a$$ ripped more then a few times for what I've posted here, in IRL. She is far from some weak whinny woman trying to cling to me while accepting whatever I throw at her. Frankly, your suggesting it is old.

I find it interesting that you zone in on the last not even 25% of what I wrote and completely missed the point.

 

Right now you are using the affair card. When you call things that happen her "wayward" thinking you are making it about her affair again. And when you over use it it loses its meaning not to mention the imbalance it creates. What she said and did from an outside perspective had nothing to do with her spreading her legs for another man. Not even a step in that direction or all of us imperfect humans better watch out because we are all wayward then. When you are looking for something. In your case "wayward thinking" you see it and make connections that just aren't there. Or are such crazy lengths to make them connect. Seeing wayward behaviour in her everytime she forgets something and then either gives a reason why or what not you see "CHEATER" when you say that is wayward thinking. Your connection comes from hypersensitivity.

 

There is thoughtlessness and selfishness in cheating. But there is also thoughtlessness and selfishness in us all and as I said we wouldn't say you have "wayward" thinking. Nor my husband. Or anyone else who hasn't cheated. You make things about her affair that aren't.

 

IN this case was she sorry for being honest and saying she forgot because netflix isn't something she watches OR was she sorry for giving her reason for forgetting and keeping it merely at an apology. Being defenseive. Retracting her need to have the last say? Because I am sorry neither of those things are "wayward" thinking. Everyone gets defensive from time to time. the are so distantly related you are doing backflips to connect the dots. I forgot to pick something up for my husband yesterday. I called him and apologized. Told him it had slipped my mind. I wasn't busy. He said no worries and picked it up himself. But guess what? He has done the same. NOthing to do with me being a wayward before or him not. There is a story on another forum where the BH forgot to water the plants for his WW because it wasn't something that was important to him. And she was hurt and upset. And almost everybody said she needed to suck it up and get over it. OF course it was considered different (they are a few years past DDAY btw) when it is the BH screwing up than the WW. But if you wouldn't call that same action done by you "wayward" thinking. Then why if she does it is it wayward thinking? Or is "wayward" thinking your new pet term to use for any marital disagreement.

 

I think it was good of her to call herself out on it. I think that is a good thing for a marriage. But labeling that little incident "wayward" thinking is you giving her behaviour a label.

 

BUt I think I am being too hard on you. You guys appear to be by story a long ways past DDAY. But in actual fact it is still fresh because it wasn't sorted back then. So, it is probably more your hypersensitivity towards her than the fact you action rationally think that is wayward thinking. I think we should all try to remember you guys are more like a couple in the first year of recovery than the sixth. It does make a difference.

 

you also seem a little sore over the things you chose to give up. I hope that doesn't build resentment later down the road.

[Zenstudent]

There is thoughtlessness and selfishness in cheating. But there is also thoughtlessness and selfishness in us all and as I said we wouldn't say you have "wayward" thinking. Nor my husband. Or anyone else who hasn't cheated. You make things about her affair that aren't.

How then would you suggest that DKT, or any other BS for that matter, should identify cheating behaviour in it's early days if not by the behaviour that lead the WS there in the first place?

[MuddyFootprints]

I don't think it's wayward thinking, either. Laziness, habitual procrastination, differences in immediate priorities...marital, compatibility, and communication issues.

 

Definitely not my definition of wayward thinking.

 

Good for you, lovin', for acknowledging and addressing a weakness, though!

 

And, DK... Really? It's a netflix subscription.

Edited December 12, 2014 by MuddyFootprints

[Zenstudent]

What do YOU think wayward thinking is, then? Seems to me there isn't a proper definition that people can agree on?

[DbleBetrayal]

I don't think it's wayward thinking, either. Laziness, habitual procrastination, differences in immediate priorities...marital, compatibility, and communication issues.

 

Definitely not my definition of wayward thinking.

 

Good for you, lovin', for acknowledging and addressing a weakness, though!

 

And, DK... Really? It's a netflix subscription.

 

I think wayward thinking can simply be defined as an umbrella to any of the above not being handled with in a healthy manner. Just like there a numerous 'reasons' and small, supposedly, unrelated steps for infidelity to take place- eg conflict avoiding, lack of communication, excess self centredness, passive aggression, indiffrence. They can all lead in the same direction, maybe not an affair straight away, but other unhealthy habits that can cause the small steps that lead to a fall out like that. So you nip it in the bud before it gets there. Just being made aware to it probably helps. I'm guessing that's what it is. Don't all WS say that they didn't plan on cheating, it was the little things, steps, thoughts etc that lead them there?

Edited December 12, 2014 by DbleBetrayal

[MuddyFootprints]

For me? Wayward thinking would be along these lines:

 

"OMG, I can't deal with this. I'm going to declare victim status and:

 

*Dream about running away.

 

*Call, text, email, visit, some guy who will listen to me bitch, whine and complain about the petty **** my husband is pulling on me.

 

*Indulge in fond fantasies of a sympathetic male ear.

 

*Look outward to find someone who empathizes with my unfortunate plight..."

 

As far as I'm concerned, whining here about a netflix subscription renewal that was either overlooked, forgotten, or intentionally disregarded is DK looking for validation and is more wayward thinking than the infraction lovin' has been carded for.

Edited December 12, 2014 by MuddyFootprints

[MuddyFootprints]

Quite pregnant. Three kids. A house. Jobs. Pets?

 

Yeah...yeah...I'll renew the netflix subscription.

 

Again, I'm glad you recognized that you didn't step up when you said you would, Lovin'.

[Zenstudent]

Thank you for clarifying. I now realize that I'm the wayward thinker in my marriage - since D-day, I can say yes to no. 2 and 4. My wife just went along with some guy who wanted to f***.

 

So if that makes me the WS, what would my wife be in your terms then? Just trying to understand your thinking.

[MuddyFootprints]

I'm not familiar with your situation or your wife, nor can I identify with the thought process of just wanting to get ****ed.

 

For me, sex wasn't the motivator. The boundaries were crossed when I engaged emotionally and 'connected' with someone who listened to me whine.

Edited December 12, 2014 by MuddyFootprints

[DKT3]

I find it interesting that you zone in on the last not even 25% of what I wrote and completely missed the point.

 

Right now you are using the affair card. When you call things that happen her "wayward" thinking you are making it about her affair again. And when you over use it it loses its meaning not to mention the imbalance it creates. What she said and did from an outside perspective had nothing to do with her spreading her legs for another man. Not even a step in that direction or all of us imperfect humans better watch out because we are all wayward then. When you are looking for something. In your case "wayward thinking" you see it and make connections that just aren't there. Or are such crazy lengths to make them connect. Seeing wayward behaviour in her everytime she forgets something and then either gives a reason why or what not you see "CHEATER" when you say that is wayward thinking. Your connection comes from hypersensitivity.

 

There is thoughtlessness and selfishness in cheating. But there is also thoughtlessness and selfishness in us all and as I said we wouldn't say you have "wayward" thinking. Nor my husband. Or anyone else who hasn't cheated. You make things about her affair that aren't.

 

IN this case was she sorry for being honest and saying she forgot because netflix isn't something she watches OR was she sorry for giving her reason for forgetting and keeping it merely at an apology. Being defenseive. Retracting her need to have the last say? Because I am sorry neither of those things are "wayward" thinking. Everyone gets defensive from time to time. the are so distantly related you are doing backflips to connect the dots. I forgot to pick something up for my husband yesterday. I called him and apologized. Told him it had slipped my mind. I wasn't busy. He said no worries and picked it up himself. But guess what? He has done the same. NOthing to do with me being a wayward before or him not. There is a story on another forum where the BH forgot to water the plants for his WW because it wasn't something that was important to him. And she was hurt and upset. And almost everybody said she needed to suck it up and get over it. OF course it was considered different (they are a few years past DDAY btw) when it is the BH screwing up than the WW. But if you wouldn't call that same action done by you "wayward" thinking. Then why if she does it is it wayward thinking? Or is "wayward" thinking your new pet term to use for any marital disagreement.

 

I think it was good of her to call herself out on it. I think that is a good thing for a marriage. But labeling that little incident "wayward" thinking is you giving her behaviour a label.

 

BUt I think I am being too hard on you. You guys appear to be by story a long ways past DDAY. But in actual fact it is still fresh because it wasn't sorted back then. So, it is probably more your hypersensitivity towards her than the fact you action rationally think that is wayward thinking. I think we should all try to remember you guys are more like a couple in the first year of recovery than the sixth. It does make a difference.

 

you also seem a little sore over the things you chose to give up. I hope that doesn't build resentment later down the road.

 

My Harley Softail, yeah I'm already resentful, but in a playful kinda way. The rest of the stuff were all long standing issues with us. I don't expect more then I'm willing to give. We addressed our issues and came to a compromise.

 

Listen, I believe that small things indicate bigger things. The kid that steals a candy bar is far more likely to be the teens that steals a car.

 

Yes its true, we have really just started dealing in ernest with the affair. However there isn't a ton of emotions left. The pain is mostly gone. For both of us its more about rebuilding the trust.

[DKT3]

I don't think it's wayward thinking, either. Laziness, habitual procrastination, differences in immediate priorities...marital, compatibility, and communication issues.

 

Definitely not my definition of wayward thinking.

 

Good for you, lovin', for acknowledging and addressing a weakness, though!

 

And, DK... Really? It's a netflix subscription.

 

I get your motivation here. We identiy with those riding in the same boat. Baby steps in this direction ended in an affair.