Any other "too insecure for their own good" folks out there?

[liswil]

You've been with her over a year. She owes it to you to meet with you. I've asked (and gotten) that from people I've been with a lot shorter than that.

 

Don't go into stuff on the phone. Just get a definitive day and time to meet from her.

 

That's what I'd do anyway.

[notmakingsense]

You've been with her over a year. She owes it to you to meet with you. I've asked (and gotten) that from people I've been with a lot shorter than that.

 

Don't go into stuff on the phone. Just get a definitive day and time to meet from her.

 

That's what I'd do anyway.

 

Thanks liswil. That's my plan.

 

I am dealing with someone who is making it very hard for me to get together with! This is nothing new. When she has her kids, getting any in-person time is next to impossible, and phone-time is limited to the early day, when her kids are at school. This sucks, because she's usually running errands, and I'm typically in-between meetings. Earlier in the thread, you may have noticed that her calling in the evening is usually out of the picture as well, because she won't make the effort to go outside or in her car or to a place where she's out of earshot. Her kids are getting older, so they pretty much all have the same bed-time.

[liswil]

I've dealt with that type before. If you get the run-around, show up at her house. Who cares if that's not a good time for her. It's time you call the shots.

[nicki]

Hey, how are you doing?

 

Please run out and buy the book, Codependent No More, by Melody Beattie. Children of alcoholics are very often codepedent. You will see yourself in the pages of this book (I know I saw me!)

 

This book will help you more than anything else I can say to you. It is simply amazing.

 

I can also tell you that this situation is a great gift to you. You will see how strong you are, no matter what happens. You will also learn to give up control and let people be who they are. You will learn to respond appropriately, taking care of yourself instead of reacting and wallowing in the first (scary) feeling you get.

 

This book saved my life. No lie.

 

Big hug to you.

[nicki]

By the way, you are doing GREAT! (compare what you are doing now to what you would have done before.) See?

 

You should be very proud of yourself.

[notmakingsense]

Arrgh.... we finally met this morning -- took a long walk outside in the sunshine. She called yesterday and was in a foul mood about a bunch of things going on for her right now (house needing repairs, bills coming due, initiating legal action against her ex, not knowing what she wants to do in life, etc., etc., etc.). I convinced her to meet me so I could talk to her and help cheer her up.

 

Anyway, after we got done talking about all her stuff (I didn't really cheer her up that much, but acted like a coach with some "just do it" motivation), I finally brought up the fact that I wasn't happy with the way she treats me. I called her actions "unacceptable" and "bad behavior".

 

Although she didn't come back at me, I could tell she wasn't feeling comfortable. I quickly changed the tone of the conversation and reminded her that I love her, I'm on her side, and just want to come up with a plan for us. I also asked her "what am I to you?, this will help me come up with the expectations I should have in this relationship".

 

I won't detail all the words, but her response was basically that she has so much going on in her life that she just can't deal with trying to define us. She heard what I said, and apologized for making me feel bad, but felt that she didn't have the capability to deal with "us" right now.

 

I asked her what I should do? The bottom line is that she gave me no input. The time-together didn't end negatively, but things are a bit chilly.

 

Anyway, I'm very dissappointed in myself and frustrated. The only thing I managed to get across is that I'm unhappy about the way she treats me, and that I find it unacceptable. There were *no* resolutions from our talk.

 

I tried to set up a follow-on date, but she's non-committal right now, so I don't know when we'll see each-other next. I guess I'll go no-contact for a few days and see what happens.

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

 

 

I asked her what I should do? The bottom line is that she gave me no input. The time-together didn't end negatively, but things are a bit chilly.

 

Anyway, I'm very dissappointed in myself and frustrated. The only thing I managed to get across is that I'm unhappy about the way she treats me, and that I find it unacceptable. There were *no* resolutions from our talk.

 

 

Remember the broken popcorn machine? You're not going to get what you're wanting from her. You keep trying to and keep getting disappointed. I've been there.

 

And what the heck were YOU trying to cheer HER up for? Stop it! What has she done to deserve that?

[notmakingsense]

ncki -- looks like we were writing at the same time... thanks for the words of encouragement and the book suggestion! I'll get that right away. I can tell I still have a long way to go.....

[notmakingsense]

Remember the broken popcorn machine? You're not going to get what you're wanting from her. You keep trying to and keep getting disappointed. I've been there.

 

And what the heck were YOU trying to cheer HER up for? Stop it! What has she done to deserve that?

 

Yeah, I know -- but it was the whole "theme" of our meeting. As in, "lets go for a walk and get you cheered up." She had no idea that I had a whole other agenda!

 

I don't yet have the guts to make the decision to just walk away, and I haven't convinced myself that I can't be the popcorn machine repairman.

 

I could always just make a break without talking to her about it -- but that doesn't sound right either. Damn!

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

 

I don't yet have the guts to make the decision to just walk away, and I haven't convinced myself that I can't be the popcorn machine repairman.

 

I could always just make a break without talking to her about it -- but that doesn't sound right either. Damn!

 

I do the same thing. And you know what? It doesn't do anything but waste your time---but I still do it. I've had enough experiences to know it's not going to make things better but I still never just walk away.

 

I hope to get like that though.

 

I just now had a bad situation with someone---it's not a good situation to begin with but I won't into all that. I just let how this guy acted towards me (on the phone) affect my whole day. He really made me feel like crap.

 

I hope we can both get to a point where we don't let them do this.

[notmakingsense]

I just now had a bad situation with someone---it's not a good situation to begin with but I won't into all that. I just let how this guy acted towards me (on the phone) affect my whole day. He really made me feel like crap.

 

I hope we can both get to a point where we don't let them do this.

 

Hey lliswil, thanks, me too. What happened with the guy? It sucks when someone else has the ability to make us feel bad. I can't say I feel bad today, but I do feel unsatisfied and frustrated.

[liswil]

He was just cold and too busy to talk to me. He runs hot and cold. It's just sort of a friendship though.

[nicki]

wow, she's pretty good at manipulating people, huh? It's always about her, her, her, right?....oh, give me a break.

 

I'd say she is selfish and unable to give you the love you want. How frustrating when you are giving so much. And the funny thing is that YOU are trying to control her behavior. Just let her be who she is. You've told her what you want and need.

 

Don't think for a minute that she doesn't understand, or that you need to put more energy into helping her know how you feel. She knows, and she doesn't want to deal with it, doesn't want to give you what you want. Or even talk about it..

 

That's enough information to know to pull WAY back. You don't have to break up with her right now. It takes a lot of strength to do that...but how about not talking to her AT ALL for a few days? She knows where you stand. Now take some action.

 

I think you will find that no matter what you do, she will never be ready, never give you what you want. As time goes by and you don't get your needs met, you will care a little less and less...that's how it happened for me. But you need to know that you deserve to get what you want...there are women who will give it to you, and some who can't...you have to learn who to trust, who to give your love to...and it doesn't seem to be her, does it?

 

And you need some detaching time to see things clearly.

 

A good way to do that is by closing your heart to her. Remember how hurt and mad she makes you. Anger is a great signal that things need to change. She won't change, so you have to...

 

Don't go to the person causing your pain to help you feel better...make sense?...I suspect she likes being in control of you...and shouldn't the person who loves you want to do everything to make you feel safe, secure? yes!

 

Please read the book I suggested. Please don't call her for a week (read the book instead.) If she calls you, talk for a minute and then get OFF the phone. Treat her like a friend who has called. Be friendly but cool.

 

Don't have a big talk with her for a week. Get clear. Wean yourself off of her. Just do it, even if you are scared. It will make you stronger, but you have to go through the separation fear first ... then you can decide if YOU want to be in this relationship...

 

You will look back someday and won't believe that you tried to squeeze water out of a rock!

 

(By the way, my boyfriend is trying everything to get me back. I no longer want him and his selfishness. I think you will feel that way soon about your girlfriend.)

[Mz. Pixie]

Nicki,

 

That was a great post. You put it so well!

 

I went through this kind of selfishness with my husband. He never had the "time" to read articles on our marriage, or go to marriage counseling, or put my needs above his own. It was always about him. Once, my mother was dying and I needed him to come home at a decent hour so that I could get to ICU during visiting hours and he was NOT happy about it, he was like, I'm busy, I have stuff to do. I said, "Excuse me that my mother didn't pick a good time to die for you!"

 

Once I moved on it was so sad to see him trying to win me back, when I didn't want him. I felt bad but I had tried for so long I had nothing left.

 

NMS- you are selling yourself short. I had no idea what I was missing until I found my BF. There is no way I could ever go back to the crumbs that my husband was willing to give me. And he was getting everything his way!

 

The only way you can get some perspective is to back off. Perhaps I would even not take her calls when she called for a couple of days??

 

I mean, come on, you sat there and told her it wasn't working for you and she didn't even care................

[liswil]

Originally posted by Mz. Pixie

 

I mean, come on, you sat there and told her it wasn't working for you and she didn't even care................

 

But that just makes us try harder because we want to prove that we're worth being cared about.

[notmakingsense]

Thanks for all of your responses folks.

 

I know, I know, I know..... one step forward, and two steps back. Over the last few weeks, I have backed off, and I'm trying my best to at least not exceed the amount of energy she puts into the relationship. Nicki, I'm going to take your suggestion and read the book.

 

Funny thing..... since I told her this morning that her behavior is unacceptable, and we left things a bit chilly, she's called me about 3 times!

 

But.... like liswil points out over and over -- do I really want her back?

 

Nicki --

 

wow, she's pretty good at manipulating people, huh? It's always about her, her, her, right?....oh, give me a break.

 

I'd say she is selfish and unable to give you the love you want. How frustrating when you are giving so much. And the funny thing is that YOU are trying to control her behavior. Just let her be who she is. You've told her what you want and need.

 

Don't think for a minute that she doesn't understand, or that you need to put more energy into helping her know how you feel. She knows, and she doesn't want to deal with it, doesn't want to give you what you want. Or even talk about it..

 

You know, one thing is -- is that she'll admit to this freely. She used to talk about it more often, but she'd say "I have so much going on in my life, that I just don't have the energy to put into a serious relationship." Then -- we'd get close, talk about love and marriage, I'd get more into things, then "bam!" -- she'd withdraw. If only I actually *listened* to what she was saying and held myself back from the beginning -- I wouldn't be in this predicament.

 

So.... here I am trying to change something that I should know can't be changed right now.

 

Don't have a big talk with her for a week. Get clear. Wean yourself off of her. Just do it, even if you are scared. It will make you stronger, but you have to go through the separation fear first ... then you can decide if YOU want to be in this relationship...

 

You will look back someday and won't believe that you tried to squeeze water out of a rock!

 

(By the way, my boyfriend is trying everything to get me back. I no longer want him and his selfishness. I think you will feel that way soon about your girlfriend.)

 

I'll try. It's soooooo hard! If she gives me an inch, I'll take a mile!. I'll know I have gotten better if I can actually resist her advances and closeness.

 

 

Mz Pixie --

 

 

NMS- you are selling yourself short. I had no idea what I was missing until I found my BF. There is no way I could ever go back to the crumbs that my husband was willing to give me. And he was getting everything his way!

 

The only way you can get some perspective is to back off. Perhaps I would even not take her calls when she called for a couple of days??

 

I mean, come on, you sat there and told her it wasn't working for you and she didn't even care................

 

Yes -- I am. Although I believe she cares a little, she certainly doesn't care enough for me right now.

 

Just like all of you have been telling me all along.... I need to back off. Thanks for enduring my regressions...

[nicki]

Ms. Pixie, sounds like we were married to the same man! It's hard to believe that we tried so hard for so long, isn't it? Things can be so easy with the right person. All that extra energy we wasted with the other one is suddenly available to live our lives more fully!

 

NMS, I don't mean to sound harsh in any way. It helped me to have other people be strong minded until I could internalize it.

 

You are doing great. I know that this is the hardest thing in the world to deal with. Like liswil said, your girlfriend's avoidance makes you want to prove that you are lovable. So you keep trying to make an unworkable situation work. It's a pattern from childhood that no longer serves you.

 

Your girlfriend sounds like a commitment phobe, especially the part about calling you now that you aren't contacting her. Classic behavior. She can only feel close to you if you are distant. Then she will be all lovey-dovey. You will feel close to her again, and once she feels it she will pull away again. Arggh!

 

My husband and ex boyfriend were both like that. Most codependent people pick people who can't love them. Deep down, we don't feel we really deserve it. Our radar is screwed up and we pick the wrong people.

 

Ask yourself if you want her to love you only when you are acting distant? Love is about being close, intimate, connected. (I know you know this. Just wanted to reiterate it.) More than likely, she will always have an excuse to not be intimate with you. It's her. She would be this way with anyone. Remember that you are wonderful.

 

Let me know what you think of the book. I'm curious to know what resonates with you.

[moimeme]

Boy, do I *ever* disagree with the advice you've been getting.

 

Unfortunately, too many people are *so* into themselves and their wants and needs that they will advise you to grab what you want and forget what the other person wants or needs. Your gf isn't the 'popcorn' person at all - she has complications in her life, including a divorce and kids. That 'popcorn' analogy, you all should have understood, is not translatable to every situation and certainly not this one.

 

Another poster just confessed he was 'controlling' because he finds himself distrusting his gf. Your first post was about distrust and, rather than people suggesting that you should overcome your feelings of distrust, they encouraged your distrust and have helped you engineer more problems in your relationship than you had originally.

 

There's some sick tendency these days for everyone to have a mortal dread of being 'walked all over'. Well, most people aren't that malicious. Sure, you'll run into a few, but they are the exception, rather than the rule. However, if the people who offer you advice are all embittered by their own experiences, they will foist their bitterness onto you.

 

I fear these folks have done you a grave disservice. Nothing you have said about your gf indicates that she is other than she said she'd be. For instance, saying you shouldn't have gotten involved until she was divorced is ridiculous. Divorces can drag on for ages and it's nobody's fault. Nonetheless, she was trying to do just that when you came along and she decided that she couldn't bear to lose you so asked for your patience.

 

You did not make a mistake in agreeing, nor have you been 'walked over'. And, rather than overcoming your distrust, which is an unfair and irrational sentiment, you have been encouraged to grab it and hold on to it and wield it against her.

 

Now, with reason, she's thinking you may not be such a great deal after all. You've gone on the offensive and accused her of 'bad behaviour'. She thought she'd found an understanding man who would give her the space she needs to get free of her emotional and legal committments and agree with her plan *not* allow you to be 'rebound guy' and instead she's got someone who's demanding to be rebound guy, i.e. to be in a full relationship with her even though she's not yet free of the trappings of her last one.

 

I don't congratulate you. I think you're making a huge mistake. I think far too many people have chosen this attitude of mistrust and 'give me everything I want or I'll walk' and that's why a lot of relationships break down when they might have been perfectly fine if only each individual had concentrated on the other's needs instead of his own.

 

She was upfront with you. She told you she couldn't be fully involved with you and why and you initially agreed to bide your time. Now you've changed the plan because you've been encouraged to and that's too bad. To her, you've gone back on the initial deal and therefore you may not be that trustworthy yourself.

 

There is not one set of 'shoulds' for all relationships. The advice you've been given might have been useful if she was single, had no commitments, and was free of all psychological and emotional complications. But real life doesn't abide by rules and wise people need to understand situations in which the 'shoulds' don't apply. This is one. There are, as the courts would say, 'mitigating circumstances' for her behaviour and your first approach was bang on.

 

So what to do now? Well, you've followed the advice you were given and, as Dr. Phil says, 'how's that working for ya?'. Seems not that great. As I said, it's probably unsalvageable now. She sees you've bailed on your earlier agreement and, if she's any sort of savvy, that'll be a big black mark in her book against you.

 

There aren't so many fabulous people out there that another one'll come along if you toss away the one you have. Unfortunately, a lot of people get onto their high horses and demand all their 'needs' be met (no matter the situation of the other person) only to ditch someone who doesn't jump through all the hoops exactly the right way. And live to regret it. If you want to be one of them, continue pushing her away and refuse her any leeway.

[tokyo]

Originally posted by moimeme

Now, with reason, she's thinking you may not be such a great deal after all. You've gone on the offensive and accused her of 'bad behaviour'. She thought she'd found an understanding man who would give her the space she needs to get free of her emotional and legal committments and agree with her plan *not* allow you to be 'rebound guy' and instead she's got someone who's demanding to be rebound guy, i.e. to be in a full relationship with her even though she's not yet free of the trappings of her last one.

 

She was upfront with you. She told you she couldn't be fully involved with you and why and you initially agreed to bide your time. Now you've changed the plan because you've been encouraged to and that's too bad. To her, you've gone back on the initial deal and therefore you may not be that trustworthy yourself.

But Moimeme, how long is he supposed to hold on? If you say that the divorce process might take years, then is he supposed to be there and wait for her till she has finished this process and is ready for a relationship? I'm not sure anymore what he said before, but I would say there's a difference between saying "I can't dedicate so much time right no into a relationship, because I'm very busy at the moment" and the emotional unavailability that she is showing. But if she warned him before that she is not ready yet to commit to a serious relationship, then yes, he has no right to complain now.

[moimeme]

But Moimeme, how long is he supposed to hold on? If you say that the divorce process might take years, then is he supposed to be there and wait for her till she has finished this process and is ready for a relationship?

 

I didn't get that she said she needed to be completely done with the divorce - precisely because the stupid things sometimes do take years. She said she needed some time. My recommendation would be for him to try to get a sense from her of whether she feels this will take years or if she just wanted a few more months to get her head straight.

[liswil]

Originally posted by moimeme

So what to do now? Well, you've followed the advice you were given and, as Dr. Phil says, 'how's that working for ya?'. Seems not that great. As I said, it's probably unsalvageable now. She sees you've bailed on your earlier agreement and, if she's any sort of savvy, that'll be a big black mark in her book against you.

 

 

I think it's working well for him. I'm not talking in respects to "getting her back" but in getting himself back.

 

 

There aren't so many fabulous people out there that another one'll come along if you toss away the one you have. Unfortunately, a lot of people get onto their high horses and demand all their 'needs' be met (no matter the situation of the other person) only to ditch someone who doesn't jump through all the hoops exactly the right way. And live to regret it. If you want to be one of them, continue pushing her away and refuse her any leeway.

 

Oh please, he wasn't at all demanding that ALL his needs be met. He wasn't getting any of his needs met. And he's given her a LOT of leeway.

 

She also talked about marriage--so no, she wasn't always upfront.

Anyway, I'm proud of him because he's taken the first step towards becoming a better--and more fulfilled--person.

[Mz. Pixie]

I think you need to read the entire posts if you haven't. This man has been nothing but supportive of her, loving and everything one could ask for and she has still not been available to him emotionally or physically.

 

She runs and hides when he doesn't want to talk, she's too busy- give me a break.

 

He's not getting anything out of the relationship at this point. He's ready to move forward and she's not.

[notmakingsense]

Wow -- I'm gone from LS for a day, and look what's happened!

 

It is true that my GF has admitted from the very beginning that she's commitment shy, not ready for a full relationship, and so on. I did sign up for that program. Since then, things (on an off and on basis) have gotten very close, intimate, and with thoughts and discussions of marriage.

 

Well, 15 months have gone by, and I'm finding myself feeling more and more frustrated with the distance -- and the fact that the distance includes her reluctance/avoidance to talk about deep matters. But -- it isn't just that -- it is the fact that she completely withdraws when she feels overwhelmed about either our closeness or something else going on in her life. By complete withdrawal, I mean a complete lack of contact with me, with not so much as a quick e-mail saying she's feling bad and needs to be alone for a while. When mentioned in another post about confronting her about her "bad behavior", it is this latter treatment of me that I was focusing on.

 

So -- the combination of my frustration with the distance, and her bad hehavior that has driven me to this boiling point.

 

I agree with the advice I've been getting in that, at some point, you do need to look out for your own needs. You can't go on indefinitely. However, I also agree that this should be a two-way discussion with my GF.

 

In my last interaction with her, I did talk to her about her bad behavior, and she agreed that it was and apologized. I backed off immediately, and reduced the pressure. Right now, we are in a state of limbo.... things aren't moving forward because we haven't had a full conversation about just where we are going with this relationship. Again, the reason for that is that she avoids, and I'm afraid to ruin things..... even though pursuing that topic with her is the right thing for me to do.

 

Despite my experiences with her, I do believe she is fully capable of a deep, committed, and communicative relationship. However, it is very likely that my timing will be in conflict with hers. It is also possible that we are actually meant for eachother. But -- because I know myself to be codependant and have issues with self-esteem, I'm thinking that standing up for my own needs is equally important to making sure things work out with someone who could be my soulmate.

 

Nice dilemma, huh?

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

Right now, we are in a state of limbo.... things aren't moving forward because we haven't had a full conversation about just where we are going with this relationship. Again, the reason for that is that she avoids, and I'm afraid to ruin things..... even though pursuing that topic with her is the right thing for me to do.

 

But what are you actually ruining?

 

But -- because I know myself to be codependant and have issues with self-esteem, I'm thinking that standing up for my own needs is equally important to making sure things work out with someone who could be my soulmate.

 

 

I can preach this more than I can practice it but I'll say it anyway: Work on your own issues and the rest will fall in place. You know---if you start getting better self-esteem, you might start to realize that *you* don't even want *her*.

[notmakingsense]

liswil -- there has never been any doubt about what your opinion is!

 

If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on your plan. Just work on myself. I'm trying to get there, but I only have one foot in the door. I'm still spending too much time thinking about how great it would be to bring her along with me on my self-improvement journey.