Any other "too insecure for their own good" folks out there?

[notmakingsense]

I love LS -- you get the tactical "what to do right now" advice as well as the insight as to why you might be contributing to the situation yourself.

 

I'm not really sure why I am the way I am -- I suspect that its because my parents were alcoholics, and I read somewhere that children of alcoholics are approval-seekers.

 

This particular situation has been made worse because she is extremely (as in "head turning") attractive and charismatic -- which serves to just magnify every insecurity I have. For me to look after myself over-and-above trying to win approval from her seems (to me) to be a giant-size, maybe even insurmountable, challenge.

[liswil]

The insecurity will make you cling. That'll make her run further. This is how that pattern works.

 

As I posted elsewhere, that just makes the other people who are attracted to them look better to them.

 

Several years ago, I was involved with a very attractive, charismatic guy. He kept me at arms length which made me terrible insecure. The more insecure I got, the harder I tried--the more this pushed him away. This particular guy talked to women online all the time. He told me that they were just friends and that since they didn't live locally, he'd never meet them. It was just "for fun". I found out he was telling one of them he wanted to marry her and was planning on a visit with her.

[liswil]

A better example of your situation is a guy who I was involved with a little over a year ago.

He too kept me at arms length. I never met his kids. He'd been divorced for 6 years but really had not had any real relationship until me. Other women he'd dated, never met his kids either (I asked). I'd never even been to his house. (neither had other women).

Once again, I became very insecure. He wasn't seeing anyone else (he really didn't have time to) but he still wouldn't get closer to me. In January of last year, my getting emotional got to much for him and he wanted to take a "break".

 

We've kept in contact and for awhile there, I tried to get back together with him. Slowly, I gave that up but we still kept in contact. Then late last year, I just told him off---said all the things I'd wanted to say all along. And I was surprised when he still kept talking to/emailing me.

 

I just met up with him the other night for a drink--as friends. I hadn't seen him since last Sept. (he attended my dad's wake). I thought it'd be nice to catch up. I was really surprised he was going to make the time for it. While talking to him, I wondered what the hell I ever saw in him. He's successful, pretty cute and has a nice body but he's got so many issues it'd make your head spin. He's extremely rigid and anal retentive--and I even think obsessive about things. He has to have control over everything---or at least he tries to.

 

And just like my friends told me when I was dating him---someone like that (a perfectionist) would be very hard to live with. But I wasn't thinking of that! I wanted to get through to him--win him completely! I think it was more about that then actually about him.

 

Oh and btw, in both of these examples, the guys each had five kids. Am I nuts or what?

[liswil]

Sorry to ramble on here. I just know a lot about this topic.

 

I just wanted to add this:

 

The details of your relationship aren't the problem. They're just the symptoms.

 

 

But who wants to work on themselves? That's no fun! It's must more fun to work on someone else. Well hey, at least I think so anyway.................

 

So anyway, I'm sorry that I gave you the "unfun" answer---the harder answer. But the specifics of your particualar situation really don't matter. You can focus on them instead, but it'll keep you from seeing the big picture. It might be best to focus on both if you can.

[liswil]

Originally posted by liswil

The insecurity will make you cling. That'll make her run further. This is how that pattern works.

 

As I posted elsewhere, that just makes the other people who are attracted to them look better to them.

 

Several years ago, I was involved with a very attractive, charismatic guy. He kept me at arms length which made me terrible insecure. The more insecure I got, the harder I tried--the more this pushed him away. This particular guy talked to women online all the time. He told me that they were just friends and that since they didn't live locally, he'd never meet them. It was just "for fun". I found out he was telling one of them he wanted to marry her and was planning on a visit with her. They talked on the phone all the time. He told her that he loved her. In addition to that, he also did meet one other one while seeing me.

[notmakingsense]

liswil -- don't apologize -- this is what LS is all about! And... I'm totally lucky you stumbled on to this thread -- I'm learning a lot!

 

My situation is definitely similar to both of your examples.

 

Her husband (they are still in court) is a very wealthy man. The reason they split was that he was a good-looking, charismatic, serial cheater. For reasons I can't really understand fully, she stuck with it for many years before she finally called it quits.

 

As a result, one of her biggest hang-ups is over the fact that not only does she have to adjust to life as a single mom, but her lifestyle needs to change also. The huge house in the top neighborhood has transformed to the bungalow in the lower-rent district, and so on.

 

So here I am -- thinking, wow -- she's attractive and charismatic enough to have any guy, and here I am. I'm good looking, but don't have nearly the income she's used to --- and my situation is worse because nearly a quarter of my income is still going to my ex!

 

I'm getting a tripple-whammy: her good looks, her used to lots of money, and her distancing herself from me. I have really found myself one hell of a situation, huh?

 

I don't know if her withdrawals are purely related to the obvious -- her superficial issues, her not being convinced I'm the one, or just being still messed-up over her divorce..... but you are right -- I have to take the "un fun" route here and concentrate on myself.

 

So... how successful have you been with that? Any especially enlightening reading-materials or therapy? Why do you think you are attracted to the unavailable guys?

[liswil]

You're right---you don't really know her reasons. And the thing is, we put way too much effort into figuring them out.

 

I've done a lot of reading and various forums have been VERY helpful---mainly this one. I think forums like this are a lifesaver and wished I had had them when I was younger.

I'll have to see if I've saved any of the things I've read. If I have them, I will post them here or pm them to you.

 

I basically searched for any topic of interest to me online and went through the various articles and forums that came up. The internet was a truly wonderful invention. I'm not sure how old you are, but before this, you really didn't have a lot of resources to go to for advice. Sure, you can go to friends but they get sick of hearing it or they might not have experience with that situation.

[liswil]

Oh and the guy who I recently went to have a drink with---he's got it all too (looks, body, money, etc..). Only he's ####ed up. lol

We were supposed to meet Tues. but then he had to change it to Thurs. I almost was going to cancel. So then Thurs. it had to be after his (2) kids martial arts class. It got out at 8:30. He said he would be home at 9. I told him to call me when he got home. At 9:30 I call him. He says he just got home. He had to take the kids to get something to eat first. (he takes them to whichever places they want---not all the same place).

I was on the phone thinking to myself "good luck finding a woman who will put up with this....."

I really didn't want to go out by that time (we both had to work the next day). but I did. I asked him when he could be at this place (it was near my house) and he said 10 or 10 after. I knew he'd be later. We met up around 10:20 after having to change venues.

 

Then he went on and on about his home repairs and how he'd do things 20x before they were perfect. Same with his motorcycle--has to have everything on it perfect.

 

He complained about how the cable guy came in his house and got dirt on his carpet and that he should have taken off his shoes.

 

And I'm saying to myself: "man, you're really a mess, you know....?"

 

After a little over an hour, his daughter called. She was supposed to stay at a friends house but wanted to go home. He told her he'd be there right away (guess the kids get everything they want instantly.....). Then she called back and told him she might stay (she's a teenager). Then she called back again and said she was staying---so he didn't have to leave.

 

I then told him I had to get going because I had to get up early.

 

I still like him in a way but now I can see how difficult he really is.

 

 

Why do I pick this type? Probably because my dad was very distant and withholding and he's the only guy even remotely in my life while I was growing up.

[liswil]

Here's a good story to read. I found it early last year. The site also has some other helpful info on it:

 

 

 

http://www.loveadvice.com/ARTICLES/POPCORN.HTM

[notmakingsense]

Damn! This is good stuff -- but a bitter pill to swallow. She just might be that broken popcorn machine.

 

I'm wondering if your latest situation is somehow easier -- I mean, at least you have started to figure out that he's screwed up. Which, from your descriptions, certainly seems to be the case!

 

For me, I don' t have the feeling that she's messed-up yet. All I dwell on is the loving, fun, caring person that I met and fell in love with -- I haven't judged her withdrawals to be about her and not about me. There isn't any pattern to go on here, because (other than one short 5-month relationship before me), her husband of 17 years was her last relationship.

 

But... there I go again.... this should be about me, not her. I need to get a life.

 

Not to belabor my situation -- but I need help with tactics once again. Because she made the peace-offering of the "goodnight via e-mail" last night, should I respond, or should I stick to my "no contact" guns until she makes herself available for a real conversation?

[liswil]

You should do what you want to do--not what anyone says you should do. It's got to start coming from within you.

 

Personally, if it were me, I wouldn't respond. Not because not responding will get her back (it may or it may not) but because it'll give you the power back. If you respond, you've lost the power again. Remember---it's about you.

 

For awhile there, I was emailing jokes (actually humorous stuff that I write myself), to this last guy (along with sending them to a group of others---not just him alone) and he'd respond with his comments on each of them (he liked them a lot). I wouldn't respond to his comments but next time I had one of my "jokes" to send, I'd include him in the group again.

 

I had thought of responding to his comments many times, but then I figured he probably wouldn't respond back again and he'd have the control back. Nuh-uh.

 

Btw, I'm not interested in getting back with him anymore--I stopped wanting to sometime last year. Just a friend.

[notmakingsense]

Yeah -- I'm just looking for opportunities to make it clear that I want to have "the conversation" with her. Something like: "Hi, thanks for your note. As you know, I have a lot on my mind, and I'm still waiting for you to make some time for us to talk. "

 

But... now that I read what I've just written -- it looks stupid. I want her to really wonder (and be interested in) what I'm thinking -- and for her to attempt to draw that out from me. This is the position she's put *me* in countless times.... If she isn't interested enough to reach-out like that, then -- well, I guess that says it all.

 

I'm guessing that I'll have to face this again. She'll probably write another short "nothing" note tomorrow to wish me a happy Easter. If she does, I'll be faced with the "should I respond" question again. If she doesn't, I'll be faced with it starting to feel like she's taking back the teeney-bit of power that I have managed to retain.

 

And... you are right about the power thing. Although I hate the concept of who (or who doesn't) have the power, it is a fact that an inbalance of power in a relationship is not a good thing.

 

Thanks for participating in this thread..... I really appreciate it.

[liswil]

Nobody wants to admit they want the power in these situations but do you blame yourself? She's had the power all along. You've walked on eggs around her, danced when she said to, and were grateful when she gave you a pat on the head. Well if you only get treated like a dog, then you might as well go pee on her leg.

 

And don't think you're getting treated this way because of you---this is her. This is how she treats people. She might just be inconsiderate or she might just have too many issues. Or she might feel she has so little control in her life that having control over you makes her feel better. But whatever the reason is, that doesn't really matter. What matters is that you're not getting back what you should be.

 

A lot of people would just walk away from that. You don't. Why? That's the real question here.

 

And no, I wouldn't tell her you want to talk. Trust me, I did that with him and it doesn't work. See, then they realize they have the power to give you something you want---or not. They'll use that to their advantage. They may not do this consciously, but they do it.

 

As far as her taking back the little power you have if she doesn't contact you tomorrow----you've got to start realizing this: SHE doesn't really have the ability to take it from you because the power is within you. You've just got to start using it.

 

Of course this is all easy for me to say---never said it's easy to do......

[notmakingsense]

Well if you only get treated like a dog, then you might as well go pee on her leg.

 

I'll have to remember that one!

 

A lot of people would just walk away from that. You don't. Why? That's the real question here.

 

Not enough self-esteem I guess, but you are right -- that's the real question.

 

And no, I wouldn't tell her you want to talk. Trust me, I did that with him and it doesn't work. See, then they realize they have the power to give you something you want---or not. They'll use that to their advantage. They may not do this consciously, but they do it.

 

As far as her taking back the little power you have if she doesn't contact you tomorrow----you've got to start realizing this: SHE doesn't really have the ability to take it from you because the power is within you. You've just got to start using it.

 

Its Easter today and I can feel myself getting weaker. I don't think she's going to call or write again -- after all, she's the one who last contacted me -- and she has a stubborn streak.

 

I remember her telling me about her last break-up. Her exBF didn't call her for two weeks after one incident, and she didn't try to reach out to him in the mean-time. By the time the two weeks were over, his call was to tell her that it was over.

 

I guess this could be a re-play. I'll stick to no-contact -- then eventually the time passed will get long enough that I'll have to say something -- and that something will be so charged with negative emotion, that it will be the ending.

 

By the way -- happy Easter everyone!

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

 

Its Easter today and I can feel myself getting weaker. I don't think she's going to call or write again -- after all, she's the one who last contacted me -- and she has a stubborn streak.

 

So what's really so bad about that? Because you need whatever she can give you just to feel good? I do the same thing (still) and I know that it's not good. We're literally putting our happiness in the hands of other people---never a good thing to do.

 

 

I guess this could be a re-play. I'll stick to no-contact -- then eventually the time passed will get long enough that I'll have to say something -- and that something will be so charged with negative emotion, that it will be the ending.

 

That's what I ended up doing. What I said was pretty bad (and he deserved it). I was glad I was controlled enough to stop at a certain point though. I wanted to tell him how bad in bed he was..lol. (he was)

 

But I know you're hoping you don't have to do that. That she'll realize what she had, etc....... Well some of them never do--and sometimes that's why they're in the situations that they're in.-----and that's not our problem.

[notmakingsense]

We're literally putting our happiness in the hands of other people---never a good thing to do.

 

Thats a good way of putting it. She still has the power of making me feel happy, or not. How do we get out of this rut?

 

That's what I ended up doing. What I said was pretty bad (and he deserved it). I was glad I was controlled enough to stop at a certain point though. I wanted to tell him how bad in bed he was..lol. (he was)

 

But I know you're hoping you don't have to do that. That she'll realize what she had, etc....... Well some of them never do--and sometimes that's why they're in the situations that they're in.-----and that's not our problem.

 

Yeah, I guess that is what I am hoping. But -- I'm pretty pessimistic.... I have already been spending time drafting the letter I'm going to e-mail to her next week if she continues to avoid having a conversation with me. Is that pathetic or what? I already am assuming she won't call at a time when we both can talk, and I'll have to do the old one-way communication via e-mail. Then, guess what? She'll be the one not responding once again.

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

Thats a good way of putting it. She still has the power of making me feel happy, or not. How do we get out of this rut?

 

It's not easy. You know how they always say how happiness has to come from within? Well, that's the answer. I used to hate when I'd hear that. I'd think "how could it come from within if it's not there?" But I've actually gotten to apoint where I sometimes feel it coming from within. Not too often but at least I know it can happen. It's very freeing---feeling like you don't need anyone.

 

The bad thing is, when you place your happiness in the hands of others, you're going to end up unhappy. People are too unpredictable. When we put it in their hands, we have absolutely no control over it.

 

You have to get mad first--which I think you're starting to. She's not any better than you. And she might even be worse. You say she is very attractive. Chances are, if she's been very attractive all of her life, she probably didn't develop a lot in other areas.

She married someone rich. So what. The more rich people I'm around the more lies and deception I see. Seems that's how they got to the top. Well, they're no different in relationships either.

 

 

 

Yeah, I guess that is what I am hoping. But -- I'm pretty pessimistic.... I have already been spending time drafting the letter I'm going to e-mail to her next week if she continues to avoid having a conversation with me. Is that pathetic or what? I already am assuming she won't call at a time when we both can talk, and I'll have to do the old one-way communication via e-mail. Then, guess what? She'll be the one not responding once again.

 

And look at all that time and energy put into someone who probably isn't worth it. But I know how you feel. You want to be victorious. I don't think you really have thought ahead as to what will happen if you "get" her. There's a good chance it's not really what you want.

 

Have you even considered what you want? What kind of person you want?

[notmakingsense]

Well, I already screwed up. Getting caught up in the spirit of the day, with my kids digging in to candy, I thought to myself -- well, she wished me goodnight and a happy Good Friday, so I at least shouldn't be a jerk -- and I sent a quick note to wish her and her family a happy Easter. Nothing else, no asking for a time to talk/meet. Just Happy Easter -- that's it.

 

Who knows if she'll respond -- its starting to matter to me less.

 

It's not easy. You know how they always say how happiness has to come from within? Well, that's the answer. I used to hate when I'd hear that. I'd think "how could it come from within if it's not there?" But I've actually gotten to apoint where I sometimes feel it coming from within. Not too often but at least I know it can happen. It's very freeing---feeling like you don't need anyone.

 

The bad thing is, when you place your happiness in the hands of others, you're going to end up unhappy. People are too unpredictable. When we put it in their hands, we have absolutely no control over it.

 

I'm glad you are getting to that point. I'm way far away from it. I think it affects all aspects of my life: kids, work, relationships. The more I think about it -- the more I'm realizing that I have this fundamental issue.

 

You have to get mad first--which I think you're starting to. She's not any better than you. And she might even be worse. You say she is very attractive. Chances are, if she's been very attractive all of her life, she probably didn't develop a lot in other areas.

She married someone rich. So what. The more rich people I'm around the more lies and deception I see. Seems that's how they got to the top. Well, they're no different in relationships either.

 

I think I am getting mad -- well, at least I go though periods of getting angy more often than before. It helps. There are times when I think she's better than me -- because she has the ability to say "I need time for myself" -- which is something I've never said to anyone before. But the rest of it -- yeah, she's definitely underdeveloped when it comes to communication and intimacy -- and her constant exposure to wealth has twisted her view on things.

 

And look at all that time and energy put into someone who probably isn't worth it. But I know how you feel. You want to be victorious. I don't think you really have thought ahead as to what will happen if you "get" her. There's a good chance it's not really what you want.

 

Have you even considered what you want? What kind of person you want?

 

At this point, a person who is available would be ideal! Honestly, I guess I don't know. I'm used to going purely on chemistry and seeing where it leads. Maybe I'd say "her -- but available and ready to really work on a relationship"

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

Well, I already screwed up. Getting caught up in the spirit of the day, with my kids digging in to candy, I thought to myself -- well, she wished me goodnight and a happy Good Friday, so I at least shouldn't be a jerk -- and I sent a quick note to wish her and her family a happy Easter. Nothing else, no asking for a time to talk/meet. Just Happy Easter -- that's it.

 

It's to be expected. I did tons of times. It takes awhile for me to learn things. Don't feel bad about it. You were just wishing someone happy easter---just like you would anyone else. Think of it that way.

 

 

I'm glad you are getting to that point. I'm way far away from it. I think it affects all aspects of my life: kids, work, relationships. The more I think about it -- the more I'm realizing that I have this fundamental issue.

 

Actually most of the time, I'm still far from it. I know it in my head but I don't practice it very often. But that's farther than I was before.

 

 

I think I am getting mad -- well, at least I go though periods of getting angy more often than before. It helps.

 

Yeah anger, sadness, suddenly feeling like you've been too harsh with them. Very typical.

 

 

There are times when I think she's better than me -- because she has the ability to say "I need time for myself" -- which is something I've never said to anyone before.

 

Well what if you would? What's the worst that could happen?

 

 

I'm used to going purely on chemistry and seeing where it leads.

 

Yeah I used to base it on that too. It's not good to. Reason being that when there's a lot of chemistry you tend to overlook a lot of other things.

If I were you, I'd write down things that you'd like a person to have, things a person must have and things you don't care whether or not they have.

[notmakingsense]

If I were you, I'd write down things that you'd like a person to have, things a person must have and things you don't care whether or not they have

 

That's a good idea, of course, its going to force me to actually think about it!

 

What about you? You seem very self-aware. Has all of this knowledge helped you in your most recent relationship?

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

 

What about you? You seem very self-aware. Has all of this knowledge helped you in your most recent relationship?

 

 

Um..no...I'm still quite a mess....lol.

 

Actually, I've met and dated some people since that guy who I talked about from a little over a year ago, but haven't had any real relationship since him.

But has that made me want to try to get back with him? Nope.

[Groovy]

I have dated men with gym bodies, perfect whites and big wallets. It's good for a fling. But if you want to be with someone for a relationship you will not care about bald heads, a little bit of extra weight, or a middle class income. If this women is mature she will enjoy the conversation, intelligence and you going out of your way for her in ways she feels super special. Her husband who was maybe handsome and loaded maybe had a personality defect and for her the money or looks weren't too high as a priority.

 

Try to not act desperate, clingly or insecure. Give her time. It's always hard when someone likes you more and inadvertently creates pressure or obligation for you to feel the same way. And you can be the best guy but if she is not ready then she is not ready. There is no magic wand. Just be there as a friend and be who you are.

[notmakingsense]

Yes, but Groovy -- its been 15 months! I have done reasonably well at keeping the pressure off -- but it doesn't change the fact that I feel like s*** every time she withdraws. It hurts, and I want the pain to end. At this amount of time, don't you think I deserve to be asking for more?

 

Maybe someone can shed more light on this, but I'm thinking that if she isn't ready to move ahead after 15 months, then she probably never will be.

[Groovy]

So sorry I missed that part! I agree if she is not ready after 15 months then she won't be. Some people have intimacy issues, it's up to them to want the great relationship you offer. It doesn't even matter why she is distant in her feelings. You are looking for different things, find someone who shares the same goals. Best of luck!

[notmakingsense]

So sorry I missed that part! I agree if she is not ready after 15 months then she won't be. Some people have intimacy issues, it's up to them to want the great relationship you offer. It doesn't even matter why she is distant in her feelings. You are looking for different things, find someone who shares the same goals. Best of luck!

 

Thanks Groovy.

 

So now, my big issue is getting time from her to have "the conversation." I don't know what it is about me, when I give myself an inch (e-mailing her "Happy Easter" yesterday), I give myself a mile. I left a voice-mail on her cell phone this morning "just to tell her I'm thinking of her." I feel like an idiot, and desperate to get her to call me and commit to a time to meet with me. I am resolved to tell her what I want and force the issue -- even though I know that this will likely end it all.

 

If she does call, I will do my best to sound casual, nonchalant, etc. I'm usually pretty good about doing that -- but I will make it clear that I want to see her in person.