Any other "too insecure for their own good" folks out there?

[liswil]

Trust me, I hear ya! You want them to see the new you. The thing is, they often don't because they're too wrapped up in themselves. And that's really too bad for them too.

And like I said, later on you see them and wonder what the heck you were thinking.

When I saw this one recently, I still liked him in a lot of ways but it wasn't the same as I was last year. His behavior wasn't controlling how I felt. And that's a really good feeling to have.

 

He did some thing (such as making it later and later to fit his schedule) that started to make me feel bad about myself but then I realized that it had to do with him. He's very selfish and it's not because of me.

 

Like I said, I still like him, but I can look at it now the way an outsider would---without all the emotions coming into play and it's a lot clearer picture.

 

 

As for the poster who said that we're being too harsh on the woman. I totally understand someone being confused about what they want and having too much going on in their lives to make any type of commitment. I've been in that postion myself. But, that doesn't mean you keep hanging onto your security blanket and when you feel them drifting away pull them back just enough to have there---just in case. People can't just be bounced around like that. If we didn't have emotions, then maybe but unfortunately we do have them. And if she can't be more there for him, then she should say she's willing to just be friends right now.

[notmakingsense]

Thanks liswil. You are right. She should at least have the decency/courage to talk with me about it and make a decision.

 

So.... I just got off the phone with her. She doesn't have her kids this weekend, so earlier this week, I tried to set up a time to see her. She was definitely wishy-washy... she hates going out on Friday nights because she drops off her kids at her EXH's late and is usually tired. However, I'm out with my friends tomorrow night, so I was trying to pitch seeing her tonight. She called to say Hi. She's been hit with allergies, so doesn't feel well -- so I knew nothing was happening. "How about Sunday evening?" I said. "Uh, well, not sure, blah, blah, blah" (something about potential other plans, etc.). "Ok, I thought it would be nice to see you sometime before you get your kids again. Just let me know when/if you'd like to do something" (I said). "Maybe something next weekend", and so on. Basically, she's being very stand-off-ish. I wished her a nice evening and we ended the call.

 

I followed up with a quick e-mail. In it, I said that "I'm starting to get it": -- and I'll stop pestering her for dates. -- with some other niceties about wishing her a great weekend.

 

So... Kind of a wishy-washy exchange, but I'm trying to let her know that I'm moving on also. In the past, her pushing me away caused me to go after her harder, now I'm going to just let it fade away..... I've just become the transition guy.

[liswil]

I had heard the same thing that's she's saying to you before and it sucks. They can't tell you no they just keep you strung along with "maybes". Meanwhile you're telling them that you want to see them. I did the same thing. ANd you really just end up feeling like crap.

 

I tell you, it was such a good feeling last week when I was supposed to meet up with him and he was being his usual self, when I said to myself: "I really just feel like forgetting about it." I still ended up going but it was my attitude that was different.

 

Yeah, it does take a lot of attempts before you finally start pulling away. I envy those who can walk away with just one attempt. I really do. I hope to become like that someday.

 

A guy I know met a woman on the personals last year. He told me that they really hit it off and sparks were really flying. He's not the type to imagine it either as he's not real emotional or anything. After a month and a half of dating, he said he called her a few times and she never returned his call. She didn't even email. He just let it go.

If it were me, I'd show up at their door wanting an answer. That's just the way I am. I really am in awe of people who can just let it go that easily.

[notmakingsense]

I had heard the same thing that's she's saying to you before and it sucks. They can't tell you no they just keep you strung along with "maybes". Meanwhile you're telling them that you want to see them. I did the same thing. ANd you really just end up feeling like crap.

 

That is SO her! I still feel like crap, but compared to 6 months ago, I am starting to feel just a teeney bit like I can let it go.

 

I really am in awe of people who can just let it go that easily.

 

I think its all about self-esteem. I need to believe that I deserve, and can be with, a woman that is beautiful to me, and who cares about me. Life goes on and there are other fish in the sea.

[liswil]

Yeah, unfortunately I think it's really hard to get it when you've always had low self-esteem. I know it's possible, but I think it's a really hard battle. I still try to fight that battle though.

 

Lately, I don't even care to meet people. I have people emailing me who want to meet but I'm working on projects around my house. I don't know why but I just would rather do that than meet anyone. I'll swing back I'm sure but it can really take it's toll on you.

 

(and I'm not saying it's worse than married life either. There are plenty of couples who really do a number on the other one's self-esteem too).

[notmakingsense]

Yeah, unfortunately I think it's really hard to get it when you've always had low self-esteem. I know it's possible, but I think it's a really hard battle. I still try to fight that battle though.

 

I know. I'm with you on that one. I'm older than I'd care to admit, and its not getting easier to adapt.

 

Lately, I don't even care to meet people. I have people emailing me who want to meet but I'm working on projects around my house. I don't know why but I just would rather do that than meet anyone. I'll swing back I'm sure but it can really take it's toll on you.

 

I've never really been in that mode. If I repeat history, I'll be right back at it again.... One of my "growth opportunities" is to learn how to be happy NOT being in a relationship. What makes my current situation wierd is that she won't even call things off. I'll have to do it I guess. In the past, there has always been a defining conversation that made things obvious.

[liswil]

Ha! Well I'm probably older than you. lol. I do feel stupid learning these things now but I didn't date much when I was younger and then got in a long relationship/livein situation that wasn't too good. Ever since that was over, I've been dating off and on and learning all these things---slowly.

 

I guess it's never to late to learn things.

 

I've never been the type to go from relationship to relationship though. I do know a lot of people like that however. I do think it's important to feel comfortable by yourself. I'm at the other end of it I think. I should probably get out there more than I do.

[notmakingsense]

Well -- lets just say that these latest turn of events are triggering a mid-life crisis for me

 

My personality leans heavily towards introversion -- so being by myself isn't a problem per se -- it is the fact that I attach so much of what I consider to being successful to being in a love relationship.

 

Its actually very hard for me to get out there -- so I have done it mostly through on-line personals because all my friends are married and with kids -- and I'm not much into going out on my own. Interestingly enough, in this last relationship -- I met her the old-fashioned way.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't feel stupid about learning these things later in life -- as you say, its never too late -- and some people never learn -- so consider yourself luckier than they are!

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

Well -- lets just say that these latest turn of events are triggering a mid-life crisis for me

 

LOL--that's funny because I just mentioned that I was having one to someone today!

 

 

Its actually very hard for me to get out there -- so I have done it mostly through on-line personals because all my friends are married and with kids -- and I'm not much into going out on my own.

 

Same here. Btw, don't think those married ones with kids are all happy. I know plenty who aren't but feel stuck. I'm not saying all couples are unhappy but it's not like a lot of single people think.

A married guy I know today told me that after awhile it's more like a business arrangement.

[notmakingsense]

Yeah, I know. I was married once!

 

I had a horrible night last night, thinking and even dreaming of the whole situation. It is soooo hard to move on when every part of you wants to try to make it work with the one who is pushing you away.

 

It is worse than rejection, because you don't have that kind of closure -- you are getting strung along. Its times like these when I wish I hadn't had met her at all.

 

I'm also starting to feel jealousy again.... the reason I started this thread. I know I'm being irrational, but I convince myself that the reason she's pushing me away is because she's finding something better.

 

I'm supposed to be going out and having fun with my friends today and tonight. It will be just like me to sit there and sulk. I can never let her know just how much power she holds over my happiness.

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

I had a horrible night last night, thinking and even dreaming of the whole situation. It is soooo hard to move on when every part of you wants to try to make it work with the one who is pushing you away.

 

I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad night. Unfortunately these things don't go away overnight. Even when we try to put them out of our mind, the darned things come back in our subconscious at night.

Don't expect immediate results. You've been with her for over a year. It can take awhile because your mind has more memories to replay.

Our minds are constantly looking to make sense of things and find logical answers. Thing is, some things aren't in our control so no sense can be made. It takes awhile for our minds, little computers that they are, to stop trying to find the logical answer.

 

It is worse than rejection, because you don't have that kind of closure -- you are getting strung along. Its times like these when I wish I hadn't had met her at all.

 

Oh how I could have written that---wishing you'd never met them at all. But then I start to wonder if it was actually important that we meet them because we might never have been given the impetus to grow had we not. I sometimes think that it's all a series of lessons along the way.

I'm also starting to feel jealousy again.... the reason I started this thread. I know I'm being irrational, but I convince myself that the reason she's pushing me away is because she's finding something better.

 

This was a major thing with me as well. I constantly wondered if it was something about me that wasn't good enough. My mind constantly grappled with the thought of whether or not they'd treat someone else the same way or was that just how they treated me. I think I became obsessed with this thought even.

 

Well , after going over this issue for a LONG time and reading up on it, I've come to the conclusion that they will treat everyone the same way. It might happen later rather than sooner with others, but who they are is who they are.

They CAN change but they have to really want to. I don't often see too many people at our age really wanting to.

What was her situation like with her ex? If could be that neither one was really there for each other. Maybe he used her to have someone pretty on his arm and she used him for what he could buy her and they were ok with that---for awhile.

 

 

 

Those of us with low self-esteem tend to think it's always about us. It's not.

 

I'm supposed to be going out and having fun with my friends today and tonight. It will be just like me to sit there and sulk. I can never let her know just how much power she holds over my happiness.

 

I swear I could have written this. I'd say go out and have fun but I know how many times people told that to me and it doesn't really do any good. You should do what YOU want to do. If you feel like staying home and brooding, then do. Just keep in mind, that's something you can always do tomorrow. Your mind has a lot to work through so you will brood.

Going out will take your mind off of things and will help you to see life outside of this bubble. (you dont want us to start calling you the "bubble boy", do you?).

It CAN help---but you can also spend the whole night out thinking about her too. (I've been there).

Can you go out with an easy way out? Just in case you decide you'd rather be home brooding?

"Thanks guys, this has been really fun, but I think I'm going to go home and brood now....."

 

 

If you do decide to brood, use it constructively. Write down the pros and cons of this relationship. Put down on a piece of paper the things she's done that have made you feel like crap and read them when you start to miss her.

 

Don't let your imagination take over. I know you'll imagine the worst situations--that there is someone else----someone better----etc.... If you start to do this, immediately put up a stop sign in your mind and think about something else. Do that everytime the thoughts pop up. It helps and those images you would have had if you'd let your mind wander aren't really real anyway----it's just something that a low-self-esteem mind comes up with.

[notmakingsense]

If you do decide to brood, use it constructively. Write down the pros and cons of this relationship. Put down on a piece of paper the things she's done that have made you feel like crap and read them when you start to miss her.

 

I did end up going out with my friends on an all day outing. I chose to bottle things up and shrug it off by telling them that she and I were once again "off." We've been on and off so much in the past year, that I was sure that my friends were going to be sick of hearing the latest incarnation of my story. I did end up sulking and being quiet -- thinking about her often.

 

I like the pros and cons idea -- that will help me.

 

Don't let your imagination take over. I know you'll imagine the worst situations--that there is someone else----someone better----etc.... If you start to do this, immediately put up a stop sign in your mind and think about something else. Do that everytime the thoughts pop up. It helps and those images you would have had if you'd let your mind wander aren't really real anyway----it's just something that a low-self-esteem mind comes up with

 

Thanks for the words of encouragement and advice -- it is really hard for me to keep my mind from wandering -- and you are right, I always imagine the worst! It makes my heart race and my stress level rise like you wouldn't believe! It also makes me want to call her up and ask her out and cure the pain (temporarily)....

 

I'm at my wits end over not having a real break-up talk or some kind of resolution with her. It is agonizing just drifting apart from her like this without at least talking it through. And it is actually worse, because she's turning me into "just a friend" with her "just calling to say Hi" and little e-mails.

[liswil]

So you probably go back and forth between wanting to at least stay friends with her and being angry/depressed that she's just put you into the friends category.

 

You probably don't want to get out of the picture because you figure that would allow her to find someone else that much easier.

 

I can tell you that I hung on for months trying to be a friend and hoping it would go back to the way it was again. He never told me that it wouldn't either.

Well it's a year later and we're not back together and I no longer want to be.

[notmakingsense]

So you probably go back and forth between wanting to at least stay friends with her and being angry/depressed that she's just put you into the friends category.

 

You probably don't want to get out of the picture because you figure that would allow her to find someone else that much easier.

 

Actually, I don't really want to be just a friend at all. What I want is either a committment to give thing a real go, or to break up. In a way, you are right, I think my being around would make it harder for her to find someone else -- but only because I'm a constant reminder of what a great guy I am

 

I can tell you that I hung on for months trying to be a friend and hoping it would go back to the way it was again. He never told me that it wouldn't either.

 

Well it's a year later and we're not back together and I no longer want to be.

 

When it faded from "the way it was" to trying to be a friend, did you have "a talk"? Was there a defining moment that told you that he was moving on? I don't have that, and its maddening. Do you think I should write a letter to her -- because I can't get any face-to-face time?

[liswil]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

 

 

When it faded from "the way it was" to trying to be a friend, did you have "a talk"? Was there a defining moment that told you that he was moving on? I don't have that, and its maddening.

 

 

No, there never was. And he even still flirts with me.

 

For instance, I emailed him a few weeks and said "do you ever have a dream and have someone in it and don't have any idea why? Well, you were in one of mine the other day. I have no idea what you were doing or anything. So what were you doing there, huh? I'm not paying you as an extra you know...."

 

Just being my usual goofy self---and he really was in a dream just for a split second and I have no idea why---it wasn't anything meaningful.

 

He emailed me back and said: "I don't want to be an extra. I want to be the star! I'll bet it was a sexual dream."

 

I made a joke back and it went back and forth a little longer.

 

So, here this is over a year later and I'm STILL getting mixed messages??? WTF?

 

It wasn't anything he did that got me to move on. It all had to do with me. I did lots and lots of reading up on different things and trying to make myself stronger.

 

And that was pretty hard too because last year, I had a LOT of bad things happen---one which involved losing a family member.

 

Do you think I should write a letter to her -- because I can't get any face-to-face time?

 

 

What would you say? Do you think she'd respond to it? My guy had a knack for avoiding any type of confrontation---even if it was in an email. I'm a persistent type though so I kept pushing till I got something. But it was really nothing. Because they can't give you good answers. They probably don't even know themselves.

 

But I'm the type who can't just let go without SOMETHING.

[notmakingsense]

So, here this is over a year later and I'm STILL getting mixed messages??? WTF?

 

It wasn't anything he did that got me to move on. It all had to do with me. I did lots and lots of reading up on different things and trying to make myself stronger.

 

And that was pretty hard too because last year, I had a LOT of bad things happen---one which involved losing a family member.

 

I don't know much about your situation -- but he is the guy -- flirting may just be something that is natural to him -- and, of course, it is supposed to be easier for men to try for sex without also having an emotional attachment. And yeah, that does sound hard -- I'd probably have a melt-down if something else big like losing a family member happened at the same time!

 

What would you say? Do you think she'd respond to it? My guy had a knack for avoiding any type of confrontation---even if it was in an email. I'm a persistent type though so I kept pushing till I got something. But it was really nothing. Because they can't give you good answers. They probably don't even know themselves.

 

But I'm the type who can't just let go without SOMETHING.

 

She is the same way as your guy, and I'm the same way as you -- I just can't let go. I want her to either reject me outright, or agree to talk about things up-front with me.

 

I have been drafting a note. In it, I basically say that I'm not getting what I want/need, and I want things to progress to a "real" boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. I know, I know -- I shouldn't even be asking for that! But I haven't grown out of this twisted feeling yet.

 

You would probably be correct if you guessed that she'd just go ahead and avoid my e-mail to her altogether -- its happened in the past. Nevertheless, it somehow feels better to have communicated my "line in the sand" to her -- rather than simply letting things fade away.

 

So -- you said there was never a defining moment, yet you also said that you don't let things go without getting something. What did you get out of him, and how did you do that?

[notmakingsense]

Well, I sent the note. It was long on why we should be together and why she should take a bigger risk on us, and shorter on the part where I said I can't go on as it is. But, to my credit, I did get it out there.

 

I know, I probably should not have sent this. As liswil will point out, it probably won't make a bit of difference, and she's probably not the right person for me anyway.

 

I'm sure she read it this morning -- I saw her pop on-line. She hasn't replied, and I actually don't ever expect her to. Just as liswil predicted.

 

Now I'm all torn up over whether or not I should have sent it, and already, I'm feeling bad over the fact that she probably won't respond. This has outweighed any of the feelings of relief over sending the note in the first place!

 

I didn't say anything in the note about whether or not I would wait (or not) for a specific period of time. I guess it makes the most sense now to just not contact her to see if she decides to reach out to me or not. This sucks.

[nicki]

Well, at least you expressed yourself. It probably wouldn't make a difference one way or another to her. Detach from the outcome. Writing the note was what YOU needed to do, so it was the right thing to do.

 

I know you want answers. It seems like if you got them you could finally put the puzzle together, turn off your logical brain, and stop working on it in your mind! You think it would give you peace.

 

I asked my ex-boyfriend for answers, confronting him to give me some closure. He never answered. It seemed to me like he at least owed me that....ultimately, i had to settle for no real closure. I had to realize that his answers wouldn't change the reality of the moment. His actions (and hers) show that.

 

I know it's hard to live with the questions, but we can do it, and someday we may live into the answers (to paraphrase the poet Rilke.) I finally got my answers, when i wasn't pushing for them. The funny thing is, once i had them i realized that i already knew the answers. I think you do, too.

 

For what it's worth, I think you got the best out of her that anyone could have. She just wasn't ready, for anyone. You couldn't have done any magical thing to have made it work out.

 

But, you can do something magical for yourself now. Give yourself a big hug and kiss from all of us here. We see who you are, and like you very much!

[notmakingsense]

Well, she responded allright -- in tears.

 

She hit me with all the things that are going on in her life, mostly all the legal battles with her EXH, taxes, things breaking down at home, her older kids needing to move back in for the summer (and her having no room)....

 

She practically pleaded with me to back down because she has *absolutely no* energy to give this relationship right now. She says she needs to make it through the actual divorce and these other problems before she can really be a committed partner.

 

She reminded me that she cares deeply for me, and she told me that her feelings for me aren't changing, and won't change once she's through the divorce. She acknowledged that this must be incredibly hard for me, and that she'd understand if I needed to better take care of my own needs right now.

 

All of this just set me back tremendously, and I'm confused about just how much energy I should be putting in to hanging on to this. She is genuinely actively straightening out her life, but this could go on for 3-4 more months -- easily. And now, I'm completely not angry any longer.

 

Sigh.

[nicki]

Well, if she doesn't have the energy to put into a relationship, then she doesn't get a relationship. Right?

 

Give her a kiss and a hug good bye (for now.) Tell her that you understand where her energy needs to go right now. Tell her to call you in a few months when everything is worked out and she is ready to be in a relationship. Then, don't call her. Go live your life.

 

At least you have your answers. But please don't give her all the benefits of a relationship with her doing none of the work...let her come to you when and if she is ready to give you all you want. You deserve that.

 

Meanwhile, think about building your own life. Date other women if you want. Find out what you like, what makes you happy. Maybe she will come back. Maybe not. But at least you will have moved forward, which is all you wanted in the first place.

[notmakingsense]

Thanks for the advice Nicki -- I will definitely do my best to hang back and let her come to me. Naturally, I'll feel like calling her, because that's just the care-giver in me -- but thanks to all of you here on LS, I now know that this is actually hurting myself in the long run, because it is distracting me from what is really important for me to focus on now... me.

[nicki]

you have learned much, grasshopper....

[liswil]

Sorry---got a little behind in keeping up with this.

 

Well it sounds like she likes having you there to lean on and doesn't want to lose that. Why should she? She had all the advantages. If you can be her friend still, then be one but don't be there for her for everything.

 

How did this whole things start? Did she pursue dating or was at least receptive to dating? If so, what did she expect??? Sounds to me like she just needed a crutch to lean on. This is why most of us who have experienced this before avoid those going through a divorce or newly divorced.

 

You wanted to know how I moved on without really getting answers. It involved a LOT of thinking things through. By doing this, I figured out that it had nothing to do with me. I studied aspects of his personality and read up on that type of person so I could see where they're coming from.

 

See, the answer you're REALLY seeking is whether or not it's something about you. If you do enough self-analysis and also read up enough on how different types of people think or how people think during various phases of their lives, you'll get the answer you're really after. The answer you're wanting doesn't come from them. You're still of the belief that they can provide it. They can't. Only you can give yourself the answer.

[notmakingsense]

The answer from myself that I have so far is that I don't have enough self-esteem to look after myself first. I can tell, because the times that I feel the worst are when I'm imagining her actually distancing herself because of me and because I'm not the type of guy to keep myself on the top of her list. I know that's mostly BS, but I haven't learned the techniques to use to stop myself from feeling that way and moving on.

[liswil]

Picture this---imagine her calling you everyday and always eager to talk to you. Everyday you don't even think about it becuause you know she'll call.

Try to really imagine that happening.

 

How do you feel about her then?

It really freaked me out. I had a guy who I'd met start doing this and I found myself liking him less. I didn't like finding that out about myself. That told me that I have definately have issues.