what else should i do?

[EndoftheRope]

I am a 36 year old woman, married almost 16 years, with several children.

 

We had some in-law trouble early in marriage from which we never really recovered. The situation at that time brought out that DH was very unhappy with our marriage. I changed virtually everything he asked for. He told me it was 'too little, too late,' and he himself did none of the things I requested. Somehow, we muddled through and it was all swept under the rug.

 

I tried to make things better. I gave him all he asked for. When he routinely came home hours late from work, my mother's 'advice' was that perhaps I was making it miserable for him to come home, by being angry that he was late! (We're talking a couple hours every day, and often enough 4, 5, 6 hours.) I tried saying nothing. Of course nothing changed. This, of course, left me very unhappy with the situation. When I try to talk about things, he ignores me, which of course leaves me unhappy and realizing either we ignore everything or I try to talk it out, get ignored, and end up angrier.

 

Lately, I have come to realize that no matter how I react or what I do, in his mind it is all my fault. For instance: I was pleasant and loving and warm-- therefore it's my fault he didn't know I was unhappy. If I say anything, then I'm also the problem, most recently because I'm 'determined to be unhappy.' If I say anything he doesn't like, he not only tells his friends, but mine. Something I said gets translated to I screamed it at him. He portrays me as some kind of psychotic witch.

 

Two months ago I told him I see no solutions left but divorce. He promptly went to talk with my mother, who suggested I write down for her all the things that have upset me. I declined, because I know from a lifetime's experience that her answer to anything that upsets me is that I am somehow at fault. I am so fed up with hearing that! I am well aware I'm not perfect, I fully believe in taking responsibility for my part in a problem, but EVERYTHING is my fault? I don't think so. This can't continue being a one-way street.

 

He also had an extended e-mail conversation with my best friend, in whom I had confided. I just today found their e-mails, and discovered she had essentially taken his part, telling him I 'didn't want advice' from anyone, that I am determined to get out of this marriage and sadly, there's nothing he can do. (Actually, I told him very straight-forward that if this marriage matters, he needs to get us into counseling or Retrouvaille, as we are no longer capable of working it out on our own. I was very clear about EXACTLY what he can do, and he hasn't done it.) (Also, it was not a matter of not wanting advice, but of her advice, to focus on our friendship, was not appropriate in our situation. On the surface, as friends, we get along great and I think most people would be surprised to know there's any problem -- it's the deeper MARRIAGE relationship that is a problem. I no longer know how to fix that if he won't talk about anything.) This friend also advised him that if he wants to take the kids and move back across country, there would be plenty of people to help him out. Need I say I feel betrayed by her?

 

My husband is a charming, friendly person, and a great talker. I'm left feeling that I have nowhere to turn, that he has a slew of friends to whom he tells his side of the story (who never hear the rest of it), and somehow also manages to tell his side of the story to all my family and friends, and that they all take his part.

 

I am fed up with his hypocrisy. I am guilty of thinking too much of somehow I knew in high school. I never, ever would have told dh this, because I knew it would hurt his feelings, and I recognize that I was wrong and tried to put this other person out of my thoughts. DH searched out a weblog I kept and found one entry, a year previous to his search, which mentioned this person, and I've heard about it ever since, and all his friends have gotten the idea I am nearly having an affair with this person. (No-- I haven't seen him or spoken to him in many years.) While packing to move, and in seeing e-mails of his, I have found that he uses the name of a woman he once knew as his password (what am I supposed to think of that?); that he has had a ten year e-mail friendship with another woman he worked with, including getting Christmas and birthday cards for years on end, and one that was somewhat sexually explicit; he currently has a little flirtation going on with a current co-worker, telling her his first thoughts on meeting her were "she's cute," and responding to her question of whether he's working tonight with, "I'm already here, baby." He has also, btw, totally stopped making any sexual advances.

 

I'm at a loss. I do NOT want to put myself and my children through a divorce. But I can't keep living the way we are, with the insistence that either we bury our heads in the sand about our problems, or I get yelled at and blamed for any problems and nothing changes anyway. I do not want to continue living with someone who's painting unjust pictures of me not only to his family and friends but to mine. I have told him exactly what has to happen to save this marriage and he is not doing it, while all the time telling his friends I'm threatening to divorce him! (He is not saying a word to them about the door I threw wide open, all but begging him to save whatever we have left!)

 

I am tired of being the one to make the effort for this marriage over and over and over again. In all honesty, I don't even want counseling anymore because I don't think it will do any good. Also, I'm getting a little gunshy, since everything I say to him about our marriage becomes a 12 way conversation with all his friends, me always being made the bad guy.

 

What is left? I honestly see no answers or hope left, but I don't want to put my kids through this.

[Tamed Wildflower]

Phew! Wow, I can see you are at your wits end!!

 

My first question: I didn't understand what DH means. Is that someone's initials? That's the only part of the post I didn't understand.

 

My general response:

 

You are right that it is not fair for your husband, your mother and eveyone else your husband knows to blame all your marital difficulties on you. Your husband should not be bearing all of his most personal troubles to the world-- he should show some respect for your privacy. If he is going to talk, he should have some respect for the validity of your perspective and not make it out like you are always in the wrong and he is not responsible for any of the marital troubles. It's one thing to trust a few close friends with his private matters, but everyone? Come on!! All this accoplishes is to keep him in the good graces of everyone you both know, so he looks like the innocent one if the relationship doesn't work out.

 

Secondly, do not go to your mother anymore for advice on this matter. She means well, but she has been no help to you at all here. She gave you about the worst piece of advice ever when she told you that your husband's lateness was your fault because you weren't being pleasant enough for him when he came home. Your taking your mother's word on this may have seriously hurt your marriage. Whenever there is something that is seriously bothering you about your husband's behavior or his treatment of you, you have a right to open up the topic for discussion with him, provided that you not condemn or belittle him about it. You also have the right to be heard, to have your concern treated as valid by your husband. Your husband also has a right to respond by explaining his perspective, and he has a right to have you treat his view as valid. From there, the best thing to do is to come to some sort of mutual solution to the problem, that you BOTH agree upon.

 

Thirdly, from what you have said, it sounds like your approach to fixing the marriage is dangerous and will not work. Fixing your marriage is not about going to your husband to tell him exactly what he needs to do to fix it. It's not about you laying down the law and him complying. It is about both of you agreeing to talk about what bothers you, about where you are not fulfilled, etc., understanding each other's perspective and valuing each other's needs, and then coming to some MUTUAL agreements about how to conduct yourselves in the relationship. If he can not agree to do this, you will not fix your marriage. You can not do it own your own. It takes both of you.

 

A word about divorce-- I can see where you wouldn't want to go through it, it can be tumultuous, a real emotional rollercoaster. And of course it can be tough on the kids. But personally, if you determine that the situation can not be fixed, I think it is better to move on with your life than to accept misery. Kids are more resilient than most people think. Also, in my personal opinion, it is good for kids to see their parents conducting their lives in ways that demonstrate respect for themselves and others, demonstrate a willingness to work on or correct mistakes, and just basically work through their life's troubles responsibly. This can mean working on the marriage to make it happier, or it may ultimately mean divorcing. What it does not mean is ignoring personal problems and accepting an unhappy situation. Do you see it this way too?

 

Do you think what I have said is helpful?

 

Definitely post again to let me know how you are working things out.

 

Best of luck and love to you and your family.

[EndoftheRope]

DH-- dear husband.

 

I have not asked my mother for advice in a long time. :-) Sadly, I do believe that maybe the right course of action would have been to make it clear that coming home hours late was not acceptable.

 

Thirdly, from what you have said, it sounds like your approach to fixing the marriage is dangerous and will not work. Fixing your marriage is not about going to your husband to tell him exactly what he needs to do to fix it. It's not about you laying down the law and him complying. It is about both of you agreeing to talk about what bothers you, about where you are not fulfilled, etc., understanding each other's perspective and valuing each other's needs,

 

I agree with you. Sadly, one of our major problems is that he is absolutely terrified of talking about anything, or simply refuses to. When I talk about what bothers me, he rarely or never acknowledges it, but simply turns it around and asks for more concessions out of me. He has shown little inclination to understand my perspective in 16 years. I would truly like to go about this the way you describe, but I am truly at the end of my rope, and saying, not with the intention of laying down the law, but of letting him know how desperately at the end of the road I am, how totally exhausted of any more resources, that I have tried and tried and I can't live like this anymore, and we are on the brink of divorce, and counseling or Retrouvaille are what he can do to save us.

 

He has agreed to go to Retrouvaille (it's sort of a Marriage Encounter specifically geared towards troubled marriages.)

 

Honestly, though, I have no hope left. On re-reading this flirtatious e-mail with his co-worker (and her responses to him), it is very clear he's got a pretty strong friendship going there, which he has never once mentioned to me. Over the past couple of days, I have asked him many questions about work, and he has repeatedly lied to me, making out that he spends his night making his rounds and barely talking to anyone. I am so sickened by this that I have not eaten in three days.

 

When I finally tell him what I know, I know what his answer will be: that he is so scared of me (right!) that he thought I'd go into a jealous rage over him having a female friend. I have male friends (all of whom he knows about) and I have never been jealous of any of his female friends. The problem is why he's hiding certain female friendships from me and having secret e-mail accounts, but I know he will never acknowledge that.

 

I guess we'll go to Retrouvaille, but I really have no hope that he'll change his ways after so many years. I want to make it clear, that I have spent the last 8 or 10 years trying to be fair, to change myself, to understand, etc. But there comes a time when it has to be a two-way street. :-(

[Tamed Wildflower]

You are right that it must be a two-way street. But there doesn't "come a time when it has to be a two way street." The whole road has gotta be two-way. I guess you realize that now.

 

About counseling or this marriage encounter thing. It's a good idea, but ONLY if you BOTH go into it with hope and optimism regarding it's potential to help you. Remember, these things don't fix your marriage for you. They help you learn to fix your marriage. If you go into it convinced that it will not work, well then, it will not work. It's the same with a lot of problems. Ever known a smoker who has tried to quit several times, or who has entered a smoking cessation program because a spouse made them? Do they quit? No, not until they are ready to. Not until they are optimistic about it, are willing to put the effort into it. More or less the same thing with marital problems.

 

Second, if it is only one of you working to fix the marriage, it will not get fixed. It seems you realize this now. If your husband can not learn to talk with you about things, even touchy issues, even when he has to admit that he has done somethings that were wrong, then the marriage will continue to be exhausting and unworkable.

 

Sounds like your husband has an incredible amount of pride. But it's a fools pride. It's his fool's pride that is driving him when he runs around telling all your friends and family about your marital problems, casting himself as the nice guy and you as stubborn, petty, or however he describes you. He can't bear to have anyone think that he might have done anything wrong. It's his fool's pride that's guiding him when he doesn't listen to your concerns but instead turns the tables on you. He can not bear to put himself into a situation where he has to take some of the blame. He has GOT to learn to say, "EndoftheRope, I was wrong. I am sorry I did that. I am sorry that I hurt you."

 

These are the basic skills of romantic partnerships. Even if you decide to divorce, and he gets into a relationship with his special friend at work or anyone else, he will have the same issues with them as he does with you.

 

My suggestions:

 

Think about whether or not you really want to work on this marriage. Ask yourself some questions. What is the most I think I can get from this marriage in the future? Is that okay with me? Can I find the energy and my husband the humility needed to really dedicate ourselves to making this relationship work? What happens financially if it doesn't work? How do we handle the situation with the kids?

 

If you decide to work out the problems in the marriage, make sure you both are ready to face all your issues with honesty (even where you are to blame) and empathy for the partner.

 

I might suggest too that you take a little time to yourself before you jump into working on the marriage. Take time to reenergize. Is it possible for you to take a vacation without him, or without the kids? Maybe just yourself, or with some girlfriends? Even just a long weekend? What about some kind of religious or spiritual retreat? (Not the Retrouvaille, something where you can just relax for a bit and reenergize your spirit, not something where you have to confront your worst problems.)

[Tamed Wildflower]

Hi, I was just reading your last post again. I realize that what I said in my reply was largely advice for the long term. As I read your post again, I realize how sick with anxiety you are right now. You are so upset you haven't eaten in 3 days! This is really worrisome. Before you start seriously thinking about what you want for the long term, please, take care of yourself a little. You have spent most of your life giving selflessly to this man with little reciprocation. You have to take some time to be a little self-centered! You have to take care of your own needs a little. Please, start by eating!

 

I am not sure what specifically to suggest to take care of yourself (beyond eating). Are the vacations I suggested possible for you? What about spending a week or even two at the home of a close girlfriend? A friend who will listen to you when you need it, hold you when you need it, fix you a good meal or just some good comfort food, let you put your head on her shoulder? You've mentioned a best friend, who has listened to your husband's side of the story and taken his side. I know you feel betrayed by her, but do you think you can go to her and tell her you need her to be supportive right now? How about your mother? Could you say to your mother, "Mom, I need you to hold the advice right now. All I need from you is a little comfort. Just take care of me the way you did when I was an elementary school kid sick with the flu." Is that the kind of thing you can say to your mother, or is she the "stern parent" type?

 

I'm sorry for what you are going through, and I wish you the best.

[EndoftheRope]

I don't think it's pride as much as insecurity, although I suppose in a sense they can go together. I have more education than him; I play multiple instruments and earn more per hour than he does, teaching and performing; he has an unrealistic view of me, as someone who, 'if there were a nuclear war would come through the smoke with a Russian general on your arm,' as he once said. He was the kid in school who got teased. Our dads are both 6' and he's a little bit on the short side-- I know he feels inferior because of it. My dad is a retired military colonel, and my husband is a security guard-- not, in his mind, a great career achievement. And I think, looking back, that this has been his way of trying to even the playing field, to make sure I know all these other people think such and such of me.

 

What's so sad about this is that he didn't need to even the playing field; he somehow never understood (I don't think, anyway) that I loved him not based on his education or whether he was a "lowly" security guard or a general, but for his character, personality, and humor, among other things. He doesn't see that he has things I don't-- that he is much more outgoing than me, and better with people skills, for instance. He has been quite successful in security, earning many commendations for his people skills, his calm manner, the way he goes the extra mile, and his way of successfully dealing with difficult people, and every sort of person, and being asked back repeatedly to work for former employers. He single-handedly supports our quite large family (my income is for savings and 'extras.') But he dismisses these skills and accomplishments, I guess because... I don't know. He just doesn't let himself feel the proper pride in these things, because he's not 'someone important' like a CEO or doctor or lawyer.

 

I believe his insecurities are getting a little ego boost flirting with this young girl. I told him I'd read these e-mails, and he finally told me a little more about her. She has a reputation for sleeping around, including with married men at work, and hopefully he'll realize that even if, in his mind, this is all innocent, it won't appear so to others who know her reputation and see him visiting at her desk. I think as serious as our situation has become, he's finally beginning to admit to himself, too, that secret e-mails and flirtations are maybe not the little thing he'd convinced himself they were; and that avoiding conflict at all costs has really only made things worse. I think he had a fairy tale view of marriage and really expected and tried to make it happy ever after, smooth sailing forevermore, even if that meant shoving it all under the rug. (His dad worked on ships 10 months a year, so he never saw anything except honeymoon reunions. Pretty unrealistic to expect that in most marriages.)

 

I have had potpie and ice cream today and some chocolate! :-) Thank you. We had a 'discussion' (or a raging fight, if you prefer) last night, and he did finally concede a few things and admit my points here and there, and promised we'd talk some more tonight. I have been planning on going on a spiritual retreat for a weekend. I have the place picked out, since some weeks back, and just need to make the reservations. My mom-- uh-uh! She has an overdeveloped sense of look at your own faults first. I strongly agree, but I think she takes it too far, plus she thinks the sun, moon, and stars shine out of my husband, plus she finds it easier to lecture family than others. Although she did tell him a couple months ago that his lackadaisical approach to time really IS a problem, and he's trying to get better about that.

 

I have started talking to my friend about her e-mails with him. She has always been a very good friend, so I'm more than willing to hear her 'side' of this. Also, my husband requested that I send the 'incriminating e-mails' with this woman at work to my friend, I guess for a more objective opinion (he's trying to convince himself I'm 'pregnant and hormonal'! pfft!), and I think it'll be good for him to hear from her, too, that these really do look a little suspicious at the very least.

 

Oh, my! I've written another novel! Thanks for bearing with me.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

I agree with nearly all of what Tamed Wildflower has said. I do not think it is right that he is co-opting your friends, etc., and making it seem as if all of the problems are yours alone.

 

It is interesting that he seems to be playing "martyr", while focusing all of the negative attention on you. This is a game that some people play, another way to control the situation and take power from their partner.

 

I noticed that you said that you are going to something called "Retrouvaille". A few comments... First, I have no experience with this particular program, but I did some googling, and I now understand that this is a Church-sponsored marriage counselling alternative. This can be a good thing, especially if your faith is extremely important to both of you, and is a major overriding part of your lives, but there are also some things to think about. You have obviously put divorce on the table if your husband will not at least seriously attempt to stop the recriminations and false stories to friends and work on the marriage and the very serious problems you have pointed out. As you know, the Catholic Church does not recognize divorce. Based on reports I have heard from people who have gone through it, the Catholic perspective on marriage counselling basically boils down to "Do everything possible to make your marriage more loving, and better, and learn to respect your spouse more, recognize the faults on both sides, and move towards a positive solution (all your basic good MC stuff) - (but ADDS) If you can't do that, suck it up and deal with it, becasue marriage is forever, life is also about suffering, and there is no such thing as divorce so just forget about it". As you can see, this MIGHT not be a really healty way to go about marriage counselling, especially if YOU are the one who has put divorce on the table and the DH does not want to acknowledge that possibility (and therefore, is not REALLY interested in working on much of anything but would rather just convince all your friends that you are the problem, and use the kids as a wedge to keep you right where you are, as evidenced by the plotting he did with the person you thought was your friend, when she told him that if he needed help getting the kids, she would help). I've never been fond of the "fix it if we can, and if we can't, sweep it under the rug and stick it out anyway even though it sucks" approach, but to each is own. It may be a great program in some ways, and if it can be fixed (if he will commit to trying), it may even work for you, but just be aware that if it doesn't, the new objective of the "program" will be to keep you in the marriage at all costs, no matter how miserable you are, and all peer pressure and guilt available (up to and including leveraging of your immortal soul) will be brought to bear towards that objective. I have heard many stories about Catholic marriage counselling before. This is why I generally favor a secular marriage counsellor, but it's up to you. (Also please note that I have nothing against the Catholic Church or its teachings in general, and the above comments would apply to any religion-sponsored MC service where the beleifs of the religion (such as no divorce, ever, for any reason, period), are brought to bear on the process rather than letting the process unfold normally, especially where one partner thinks nothing is wrong and doesn't show much interest in fixing it, but the other partner might be made to feel stuck by such program, due to religious reasons).

 

About sending these things to your friend, for a more "objective opinion". Nah. Don't do that. He is just trying to devalue the conclusions you have reasonably drawn, and has obviosuly already co-opted your friend to take his side. He probably has two purposes for this 1. Devalue your opinion and level you (he sounds like one who always needs to be right from what you have said), and 2. convince you (and your friend, and the other 20 people he will share that with when she says they were innocent since she is obviously already on his side) that none of this is really his fault. Stick to your feelings about what those meant. No need for a co-opted third-party opinion that will just make you look stupid and like you are "overreacting" in front of all of your friends and family again.

 

While you are at it, try googling "emotional abuse". I don't know nearly enough about your situation to state anything with conviction, but you should read a few of those websites and draw your own conclusions. The devaluing your opinion, co-opting your friend with charming tactics, and making everything look like your fault while always needing to be right set off some major red flags when I read your post.

 

Good luck. Keep us posted on how things go!

[Devildog]

As you know, the Catholic Church does not recognize divorce.

 

Allow me to clarify this a bit. The only thing the Catholic Church recognizes is money. For a price, they will annul the marriage and claim it never really existed.

 

EndoftheRope, it sounds like your husband is starting to take some steps in the right direction. But there is a long road ahead to recover your marriage. And half hearted measures won't cut it. Getting him to counseling or this marriage encounter thing is essential. But he needs to get a positive attitude from it. Perhaps if you get really excited about the techniques and things you learn it will help him have a more positive attitude about it as well.

 

But it really needs to be a situation where you are both working towards each other. It can't be you making more concessions and him standing there or possibly backing away to see how much more he can get in the deal.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Originally posted by Devildog

But it really needs to be a situation where you are both working towards each other. It can't be you making more concessions and him standing there or possibly backing away to see how much more he can get in the deal.

That is an excellent point, and very true.

 

As for your comment about the Church... No comment. Even, however, if that were true (and I'm not saying it is), the overall philosophy of the religion on marriage will still profoundly effect how the religion-sponsored MC works, and that might result in a power shift in the process whereby the H doesn't feel like he has to do as much because divorce has effectively been taken off the table. As there are obviously power, control, and insecurity issues in this marriage (and perhaps more as I hinted at in my post above), taking that off the table could potentially lead to exactly the situation you described above (her making all the concessions while he stands there and sees how far he can push while the priest stands behind him beating the "we must save this marriage no matter what because there is no divorce" drum), which is what, as you pointed out, she needs to avoid. This is why I tend to favor secular marriage counselling. Sometimes saving something requires facing the possibility that it could come to an end if both parties are not serious. Just a thought.

[rble618740]

I think all of the advice given thus far has been AMAZING. I'm particularly intrigued by the issue of whether it is harmful to take divorce off of the table. My husband and I separated last year after only 9 months of marriage. He was unhappy with the level of conflict in our home, and (when he left) he was certain that the conflict was a result of our differing personalities and could not be resolved. I was unhappy for several reasons - many of which revolved around his being consistently unemployed. Anyway, I started working on us by working on me. It was hard to be patient about addressing my concerns while working so hard to address his, but I did it. It wasn't long before I was blown away at the effort he making to reciprocate my hard work. But...the thing that was a bit of a hindrance to us in the beginning is that I was SO afraid that he would just walk out on us again, that I was living "under the gun." My husband and I went to see a marriage counselor and the marriage counselor suggested that my husband and I agree to work on the marriage (without the threat of leaving or divorce) for three months. My husband and I took divorce off the table, and our marriage has been incredible since he returned to our home 7 months ago.

 

I can't make a judgment about whether my situation is similar to yours, but I just thought I would offer some food for thought. I have sometimes wondered if my husband took advantage of my religoius beliefs (that divorce is not an option), but I think that - sometimes - when you take away divorce as an option (even if just temporarily), it forces you to put the effort into your marriage. It's kinda' like parenting - in a way. You always have the option of giving your kids up for adoption when things are rough, but because we don't consider that as a viable option, you find a way to work through the rough times. I may get a lot of disagreement on this, and as I said - I can see the other posters' points, but I wanted to present the other side of the argument.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by rble618740

My husband and I took divorce off the table, and our marriage has been incredible

 

My husband and I also "took divorce off the table", when we began to rebuild our marriage. It worked for us too.

[Tamed Wildflower]

Just synthesizing the insights of the last several posters and posting my conclusion:

 

The question of putting divorce on the table or keeping it off-- it's not your answer to this question per se that makes the difference, it's how your answer to this question affects the way you think about how to proceed, which is different for different couples/people.

 

Divorce is off the table-->

some may think: "Okay, the decision is made, we are sticking with the marriage, so I have no reason to work at it or fight for it."

 

others may think: "Alright, if I am going to stay in this marriage, by G-d I am going to make it better. I can't go find flowers elsewhere, so I'd better plant my garden here."

 

Divorce is on the table-->

like WithorWithOutYou said, some may think, "Oh my G-d, I might lose this thing if I don't work at it!"

others may think: "Great, if I don't fix it, I will get to leave it. So why work to fix it?" (this may sound like, "great if I don't fix my problem, I can run away from it! Yipee!"

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Excellent points TamedWildflower. And I think you are right, that at times, taking it off the table (if it is a mutual decision that two people make together, for the right reasons) may be very beneficial.

 

My comments were mostly focused on this particular situation though. There are obviously power, control and insecurity issues in this marriage (big ones) from what the poster said, and I think that IF divorce is to be taken off the table, it should be a truly mutual decision, not something mandated by a religion, when one partner is kind of dragging his feet at working on anything (since he is obviously compensating for his insecurity by taking it out on her, while co-opting her friends and family to make her look like an idiot, and probably likes it that way). I think her H may need a good kick in the a$$, and should not be allowed to hide behind a priest to take a "no matter what, you're stuck with me babe" approach, which is what the Church is likely to be foisting upon them.

 

But like you said, and like kooky and others said, sometimes taking it off the table IS a very good thing, IF done for the right reasons, and IF both spouses have the "good" philosophy about taking it off the table you discussed, and not the bad one.

[EndoftheRope]

Thank you for all the input.

 

DH actually thinks very little of priests giving marital advice, although as he is the one absolutely opposed to the thought of divorce right now, and I am the one generally more concerned about following Catholic teachings, I suppose I can almost expect he will use that.

 

We had several nights of very good talks and I was feeling much more optimistic. Then he decided to talk to my sister and the friend I already mentioned. He told my sister I accused him of having an affair because (and apparently ONLY because) he has his own e-mail account (leaving out the secrecy and the flirtatious e-mails with a 'friend' I've never heard of). I e-mailed my sister Monday telling her there's just a little more to it than that. She has not replied, although she answered another e-mail, and I'm left with the feeling that somehow *I* am now the one guilty in her eyes of dragging her into it or speaking badly of my spouse. I'm left feeling I have two bad choices-- let the half truths about me stand, or be viewed by my own family as bad-mouthing my husband.

 

He talked to "my" friend and lo and behold, she is now angry with ME for not admitting how I saw the e-mails between them, and for letting DH think however briefly that she shared them with me. She was sad and apologetic that I felt betrayed and my confidence broken; but downright angry that HE felt betrayed. She has canceled their planned trip to visit this summer, rescinded her agreement to be our new baby's godmother, and told me 'there's nothing more to talk about.' WOW! So if I've got this straight, she is much more upset that he felt betrayed by her than that I felt betrayed!

 

I had already sent her the e-mails, telling her it was at his request. She made absolutely no comment on them.

 

I have said nothing more to him in several days beyond the necessities, since everything I say gets passed right on to others. I had specifically asked him to stop doing that.

 

I do think he's interested in salvaging our marriage. But he doesn't seem to grasp at this point that he can't salvage it strictly on his own terms. He's a good husband in many ways in addition to what I've said already-- he's a very involved and loving father, helps with the laundry and dishes-- in the last four days, he's been especially attentive and thoughtful. But this just doesn't outweight these big issues anymore, like trust. He's dragged other people into it again when I asked him specifically to stop. I don't trust him to stop twisting my words and telling half-truths to my family and friends. I suggested that if it's all so innocent with this young girl, she can send him e-mails at our joint account, and that of course isn't happening. His explanation of why he was using some other woman's name as his password was pretty lame, and he doesn't seem to grasp that he's better off telling me the truth at this point, than continuing to insist it's just an easy word to remember. (so's his mother's maiden name!) I've told him point blank he may as well start checking his e-mail at home instead of continuing to play this game that I don't know about it, and he won't even do that!

 

We are signed up for Retrouvaille next weekend. Tamed Wildflower (I think it was you who said this), I agree we both need to go with the proper attitude. But I confess I'm not sure if I can go into this with an optimistic and willing spirit, knowing he's so far unwilling to really acknowledge that he's given me reasons not to trust him, and clearly unwilling to change those things; feeling anything I say can and will be used against me to family and friends.

 

I have been sleeping on the couch for over a week and plan on staying there till I have some reason to trust him again (good thing the couch is comfortable). I'm seriously considering whether we can live like roommates-- I've found I'm much less bothered by these issues when I think of him that way. At the very least, whether divorce is on or off the table, I know HE doesn't want to live like roommates.

[Tamed Wildflower]

Okay-- two things: insecurity and his bad-mouthing of you. These are obviously major issues, and I think you should talk to him about these two things. It seems that maybe his need to have everyone think you are wrong about everything is tied to his insecurity, and the really tragic part is that, as you said, he doesn't have to be insecure about your education or talents because you love him for who he is and don't think he is beneath you.

 

Perhaps it would be a good idea to sit him down just to tell him that you love him. That you see that he is insecure, but that he doesn't have to feel that way because you think he is a wonderful person to be with, you admire him for so many reasons, and when it comes down to it, damn it, "I love you. With all my heart."

 

Then you can also tell him that you need something from him. "I need you to recognize that our marriage is our business. Not my sister's, not my friend's, not my mother's. Honey, you are hurting all my relationships when you talk about me like that to everyone I know. When you have a problem, please just come to me and talk to me about it honestly. I love you with all my heart. And now I need to be able to trust you too."

 

Does this sound like a good idea? Maybe you can even tell him that you think he runs around bad-mouthing you BECAUSE he is insecure, but I don't know if that would make him feel really attacked, which of course would make him defensive and deaf to your request. Hmmm....

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Ugh. He is still co-opting your friends and family, being charming and "the victim" to them, while trying to make you look like an idiot? I think he either has to acknowledge he has a problem, and deal with it (he needs some serious therapy to deal with his control, insecurity, and power issues), or I don't see you saving this, with or without marriage counselling. I mean, you can stay in the marriage, but unless HE chooses to deal with those issues, he will always be a drain on you, and being with a loving partner is supposed to make life better. Isolating a spouse from friends and family by actively making himself out to be the one trying to do the right thing while making you look stupid and wrong, is something that is a very, very serious sign that he is not really interested in changing, and likes things the way they are, or even gets pleasure from putting you in that position (makes him feel more powerful and in control, and makes you seem more flaky and at fault in the eyes of your friends and family after he charms them into believing that it's all you, which also reinforces his feelings of power and being in control).

 

Sometimes men like your husband can change (it is rare but happens), but it requires a serious acknowledgement of THEIR problem, therapy to deal with it (without implicating you as a major part of the problem - i.e. "if you wouldn't X, or if you would be a better wife, I wouldn't have to do that"), and most importantly, an acknowledgement BY HIM to all of your friends and family that he has charmed and co-opted that HE DOES have a problem, he has deceived them, and that YOU are not the problem (he must give back the power he has taken from you in the relationship, so that you can once again be equals - leaving them out of it from now on is NOT good enough). If you don't see that happening, sadly, my advice is to get out.

[Tamed Wildflower]

I agree with WithOrWithoutYou. Now that I consider his points, I realize that this behavior of your H where he runs around making you look bad is not something that has to just stop. Rather, WOWY is right that the power taken from you in doing this has to be given back if you are to be on equal footing. WOWY is also right that H has to deal with the underlying problems of insecurity that seem to lead him to this behavior.

 

I've learned something about WithOrWithoutYou. He never gives bad advice. He's pretty much always right on target. He's the kinda sage-like guy that when ya need advice, and he is willing to take the time to give it, ya listen up! Stick around WOWY, you are an asset to the LS community.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

Awww, thanks Tamed Wildflower. I appreciate the compliment. I just call them as I see them, but I always try to give advice that I would try to follow in a similar situation (not that I always succeed). Oh, and I think you are pretty smart yourself TW - I hope you stick around too!