Doing too much

[Robert Z]

I've been alternating between the elliptical and weights, while taking every third day off. On elliptical days, I go for an hour in interval mode with the machine maxed out on the high end, and about 20% down on the low end. If I stay at my no-load pace during the high-load periods, I am absolutely dying before the next low-load interval and hitting my max safe heart rate. My sb got after me about the elliptical and said that I'm probably burning muscle during the last half hour. UGH!!!

 

She is all but a personal trainer now and has trained under a personal trainer for quite some time, so she's probably right.

 

I understand the logic but it sort of pisses me off. I can get on the elliptical and get into the zone, and push for all I'm worth for the entire hour. I love that!!! But it seems that I'm only setting myself back by doing this.

 

Right now I am cutting, so she suggested 10 minutes on the elliptical at light load, followed by 30 minutes of weight training, and finishing with 30 minutes of moderate load on the elliptical. On the weights, do upper body one day and the lower body the next, with every third day for rest; maybe some light swimming.

 

I have set a goal of getting down to 10% body fat this year.

 

Any thoughts?

[Emilia]

High protein diet combined with cycling your carbs for days when you are training. Ditch the elliptical and keep up the weights.

[Robert Z]

High protein diet combined with cycling your carbs for days when you are training. Ditch the elliptical and keep up the weights.

 

 

I am already on a high-protein, low-carb diet. I can't eat a lot of carbs due to health issues.

 

Why ditch the elliptical?

 

 

Late edit: I said the last 30 minutes is on the elliptical at moderate load, but she amended that to mean a heavy load in interval mode. Apparently the current thinking is that this provides benefits for up to 24 hours - the so called after burn. She did specify that you want to be at your max safe heart rate for no more than a minute during each interval, and not to exceed 20-30 minutes at one time. She was even hedging at 30 minutes; again, the concern being that you start burning muscle.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

Sheeesh, hard not to overdo. Yesterday I wasn't watching my time and went for almost 90 minutes - 45 minutes on weights. And I am sure paying the price for that today! Yesterday was upper body and I could barely move my arms this morning. It is tough to get in everything I want to do in 30 minutes.

 

When I first started working out 4 years ago, I could only do about 20 minutes with two light dumb bells and then had to take a nap. I was taking two aspirin before every workout in case I had a heart attack or stroke; and hoping to prevent one if I was on the edge.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Robert Z

[TabbyHearts]

an hour on the elliptical is an immense amount of time, especially if you are doing HIIT for part of it.

 

Your body will tell you if you are doing too much, and it sounds like it is. I know you like the feeling of being in the zone, but too much steady state cardio (ie the 30 mins you're doing at the end) is considered counter productive to dropping body fat.

 

Since you seem pretty fit and able, try 25 minutes of HIIT on one machine, say the bike or elliptical, and then 15 minutes of steady state at a challenging level on another machine, again bike or elliptical.

 

Source: Been working out with a Personal Trainer for 3 years.

[Robert Z]

an hour on the elliptical is an immense amount of time, especially if you are doing HIIT for part of it.

 

Your body will tell you if you are doing too much, and it sounds like it is. I know you like the feeling of being in the zone, but too much steady state cardio (ie the 30 mins you're doing at the end) is considered counter productive to dropping body fat.

 

Since you seem pretty fit and able, try 25 minutes of HIIT on one machine, say the bike or elliptical, and then 15 minutes of steady state at a challenging level on another machine, again bike or elliptical.

 

Source: Been working out with a Personal Trainer for 3 years.

 

 

Yes, I modified that to be 30 minutes of HIIT on the elliptical, at the end. I had forgotten that she corrected herself on this point.

 

What about the weights? How would you work that in? And two days on, one off? Does that sound good to you?

 

 

BTW, when I first got on the elliptical, I was doing an hour of HIIT 2 out of 3 days and constantly bumping up the load. Within three months I had cured myself of ED - no Viagra needed. I can hardly think of a better testimonial for older men!

Edited January 21, 2015 by Robert Z

[WonderKid]

Use the elliptical as a warm up and then lift some weights. Stay on the elliptical for about 20-25 mins. After that get into some weight lifting routines to your pace. After that, do a cool down stretch. Protein is one way to decrease fat. And eating properly.

 

How I figure out I am doing too much is when my body takes longer to heal. I play basketball too. It doesn't seem like you are doing too much.

[ufo8mycat]

 

I understand the logic but it sort of pisses me off. I can get on the elliptical and get into the zone, and push for all I'm worth for the entire hour. I love that!!! But it seems that I'm only setting myself back by doing this.

 

If you can do it for an hour then the training is, by definition aerobic and sub-threshold. Which is great and perfect for building base - if that is your objective. Which it doesn't sound like it is

 

 

Right now I am cutting, so she suggested 10 minutes on the elliptical at light load, followed by 30 minutes of weight training, and finishing with 30 minutes of moderate load on the elliptical. On the weights, do upper body one day and the lower body the next, with every third day for rest; maybe some light swimming.

 

I have set a goal of getting down to 10% body fat this year.

 

Any thoughts?

 

cutting by definition is a short phase in your training and it sounds as though are still trying to reduce body fat. My thoughts:

 

1. how have you determined your maximum safe heart rate? Through previous VO2max testing/stress testing or 220-age?

 

2. To get to 10% you need to look at your diet, probably forgo eating out and look at weight training 5-6 days a week

 

3. HIIT is HIGH intensity, absolutely flat out for SECONDS, not minutes. HIIT sessions should be any longer than 15 minutes including warm up and cool down (although longer warm up is fine). They are anaerobic and designed to be HARD. If you can back up for HIIT the next day then your intensity isn't high enough. But I don't know your medical history so HIIT may not be for you.

 

4. HIIIT hard and twice a week. Not moderate - HARD. Think 100m sprints. Too much HIIT and you won't hit the intensity and it can affect your cortisol levels which can make losing fat higher. More is not better.

 

5. You may need to split your weights up further and spend more time on particular areas. You might look at cycling a three days split.

 

6. As we get older losing fat gets harder and the 1-percenters matter more, particularly with diet. Hormones and metabolism make it harder to lose fat. Not impossible but you might need more fine tuning with a dietician and exercise physiologist rather than a personal trainer

 

7. If you enjoy the cardio then do it. I am 100% all for moving in any way you enjoy. I am an endurance athlete and train for many, many, hours at moderate intensity because I love the sport. BUT my body fat is higher because being lean isn't as important as being powerful - to me.

[Robert Z]

If you can do it for an hour then the training is, by definition aerobic and sub-threshold. Which is great and perfect for building base - if that is your objective. Which it doesn't sound like it is

 

 

This seems to be a point of confusion generally. I am talking about 1 minute of high intensity followed by a minute of low or medium intensity, for an hour. I go all out during the high intensity periods. That's why I said HIIT.

 

cutting by definition is a short phase in your training and it sounds as though are still trying to reduce body fat.

 

 

I had been bulking but had an injury that took me out of the loop. Meanwhile I was adding belly fat without realizing it. But I'm back on my hardcore diet again and working out 5 days a week. And I have never been close to 10% bf; at least not since hs, possibly.

 

My thoughts:

 

1. how have you determined your maximum safe heart rate? Through previous VO2max testing/stress testing or 220-age?

 

2. To get to 10% you need to look at your diet, probably forgo eating out and look at weight training 5-6 days a week

 

3. HIIT is HIGH intensity, absolutely flat out for SECONDS, not minutes. HIIT sessions should be any longer than 15 minutes including warm up and cool down (although longer warm up is fine). They are anaerobic and designed to be HARD. If you can back up for HIIT the next day then your intensity isn't high enough. But I don't know your medical history so HIIT may not be for you.

 

4. HIIIT hard and twice a week. Not moderate - HARD. Think 100m sprints. Too much HIIT and you won't hit the intensity and it can affect your cortisol levels which can make losing fat higher. More is not better.

 

5. You may need to split your weights up further and spend more time on particular areas. You might look at cycling a three days split.

 

6. As we get older losing fat gets harder and the 1-percenters matter more, particularly with diet. Hormones and metabolism make it harder to lose fat. Not impossible but you might need more fine tuning with a dietician and exercise physiologist rather than a personal trainer

 

7. If you enjoy the cardio then do it. I am 100% all for moving in any way you enjoy. I am an endurance athlete and train for many, many, hours at moderate intensity because I love the sport. BUT my body fat is higher because being lean isn't as important as being powerful - to me.

 

 

I base my max safe heart rate on the charts and ultimately my breathing and muscle response. I can tell when I'm at my threshold and it agrees with where I should be based on my age and being in better than average condition. I've been at it for four years so I should be dead by now if there was an issue. In the beginning, every day was a risk. But I was going to get in shape or die trying.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Robert Z

[Maleficent]

One hours of intervals? I thought the idea of doing intervals was NOT having to be on the machine for more than 30 minutes...

[Robert Z]

One hours of intervals? I thought the idea of doing intervals was NOT having to be on the machine for more than 30 minutes...

 

 

Heck, I didn't know. I jumped on the machine the first time and it had programs that go for up to an hour. So I went for an hour. I had never used an elliptical and didn't know the first thing about HIIT. But I knew I was getting a fantastic workout. When I get off, my shirt is absolutely soaked like I stood in the shower. And I got almost immediate results on cardio and before long I didn't need my Viagra anymore. But now I am targeting that magic 10% number. So I need to be smart and do this right.

[ufo8mycat]

One minute on, one off for an hour is interval training. While it may feel hard, it won't give you the intensity of proper HIIT. Or the be benefits.

 

Your estimation of your max HR is probably an under estimation. But if you can do intervals for an hour, your not working hard enough as you should be totally exhausted well before that

[Robert Z]

One minute on, one off for an hour is interval training. While it may feel hard, it won't give you the intensity of proper HIIT. Or the be benefits.

 

Your estimation of your max HR is probably an under estimation. But if you can do intervals for an hour, your not working hard enough as you should be totally exhausted well before that

 

See, this is where it gets confusing. There are many different types of HIIT with no general agreement on which is best. There are the Peter Coe, Tabata, Gibala, and the Timmons regimens. You are referencing one particular regimen.

High-intensity interval training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

And no, I was never able to keep up the full intensity for the entire hour. I usually allow few cycles for warming up and then push as hard as possible. Slowly my RPM starts dropping for a given load. In the beginning I may be at 90 RPM at a 20% grade, and end at 70 RPM for the same grade after 30 minutes or more. But I'm still pushing as hard as I can without passing out during the high-load periods.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Robert Z

[ufo8mycat]

See, this is where it gets confusing. There are many different types of HIIT with no general agreement on which is best. There are the Peter Coe, Tabata, Gibala, and the Timmons regimens. You are referencing one particular regimen.

High-intensity interval training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

And no, I was never able to keep up the full intensity for the entire hour. I usually allow few cycles for warming up and then push as hard as possible. Slowly my RPM starts dropping for a given load. In the beginning I may be at 90 RPM at a 20% grade, and end at 70 RPM for the same grade after 30 minutes or more. But I'm still pushing as hard as I can without passing out during the high-load periods.

It is semantics. If you want to benefit from the physiological response to HIIT (many variables but little variation in definition) then you need to be at max HR for short period with short recovery.

 

Call it what you want but along with weights and a super clean diet is how you get to 10%

[Robert Z]

It is semantics. If you want to benefit from the physiological response to HIIT (many variables but little variation in definition) then you need to be at max HR for short period with short recovery.

 

Call it what you want but along with weights and a super clean diet is how you get to 10%

 

Then I am confused. As I said, I am at my max heart rate for almost the entire minute. What are you suggesting that I do differently? Is it the recovery period?

[ufo8mycat]

Then I am confused. As I said, I am at my max heart rate for almost the entire minute. What are you suggesting that I do differently? Is it the recovery period?

 

I don't think you are working at your maximum capacity (totally ignore HR at the moment as those charts are inaccurate.

 

Maybe try 20 second flat out/20 or 30 recovery for five minutes. Easy 5 minutes. Repeat. Cool down.

 

Or sprints. 100m. Rest 30 second repeat for 10 min.

 

High intensity sessions will be short, they have to be to hit the intensity. Ignore HR and go on how you feels. If you are ready to collapse and/or a lactate spew then well done, objective achieved.

 

You can also do HIIT with weights, kettle bells etc

[Maleficent]

Heck, I didn't know. I jumped on the machine the first time and it had programs that go for up to an hour. So I went for an hour. I had never used an elliptical and didn't know the first thing about HIIT. But I knew I was getting a fantastic workout. When I get off, my shirt is absolutely soaked like I stood in the shower. And I got almost immediate results on cardio and before long I didn't need my Viagra anymore. But now I am targeting that magic 10% number. So I need to be smart and do this right.

 

Hmmm if I'm not mistaken, it's either intervals for 20/30 minutes or 'steady state' for 45ish minutes.

 

But I'm pretty sure doing 1h of cardio everyday gets counter productive after a while.

 

Try adding more heavy weights in your work out. High weight, low reps. None of that 3x12 at a weight you could lift all day crap ok? lol

 

I haven't skated in three moths. Did only my oly weightlifting and s few HIIT home routines 20 mins) here and there and my cardio endurance barely budged. Returning to skating practice wasn't even a little hard.

[Robert Z]

I don't think you are working at your maximum capacity (totally ignore HR at the moment as those charts are inaccurate.

 

Maybe try 20 second flat out/20 or 30 recovery for five minutes. Easy 5 minutes. Repeat. Cool down.

 

Or sprints. 100m. Rest 30 second repeat for 10 min.

 

High intensity sessions will be short, they have to be to hit the intensity. Ignore HR and go on how you feels. If you are ready to collapse and/or a lactate spew then well done, objective achieved.

 

You can also do HIIT with weights, kettle bells etc

 

 

I am definitely at my max during the high load periods. I am gasping for air. At that point my hr is about 170+. [i'm 55].I'd be worried about pushing any harder. Maybe my recovery periods are too long; enough to allow the long runs.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

I haven't skated in three moths. Did only my oly weightlifting and s few HIIT home routines 20 mins) here and there and my cardio endurance barely budged. Returning to skating practice wasn't even a little hard.

 

 

What kind of skating?

[Maleficent]

What kind of skating?

 

Roller Derby. It involves speed skating, footwork, endurance etc...

[Robert Z]

Roller Derby. It involves speed skating, footwork, endurance etc...

 

 

Wow! I did ice speed skating and dated a figure skater in hs, and I even knew people into roller dancing [it was the 70s, don't ask!] but I've never met someone who is into roller derby.

[Maleficent]

Wow! I did ice speed skating and dated a figure skater in hs, and I even knew people into roller dancing [it was the 70s, don't ask!] but I've never met someone who is into roller derby.

 

 

You'd be surprised at how many of us there is, actually.

[Robert Z]

Mystery solved. It appears that a one- or two-minute maximum is misleading with the program I was running. By the time I would go for my max I was limited by my breathing and heart rate. If I start with sprints, my rate goes up from about 90 strides per minute to 140. But I can only sustain that at full load for a very short time - like 15 seconds. And at that speed my feet are about to fly off of the pedals.

 

I'm still not sure if the one-minute approach might still achieve the same goal. This all appears to be a bit controversial.