Zenstudent Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I don't want to veer off topic, but I don't think what I am saying is that hard to understand. Any rational person likely knows that the spouse they wish they had divorced, feel stuck with, and will never forgive - if said spouse knows all this - is going to feel like crap. So I can only assume that they are okay with their spouse feeling like crap, even if they have repented and worked hard. Otherwise, you would think they would want to either go all in for reconciliation or set their spouse free. Hence my question about secondary gain. I think I am really asking about a very very small and likely disordered percentage of BS's, so it probably doesn't matter. I just happen to know of a couple of cases like that, so I was wondering. I would presume that the mainstream, healthy BS would, with a truly remorseful spouse, eventually be able to work on reconciliation and find some sort of mutual peace or choose to divorce rather than keep the misery going forever. Just like I would hope an unrepentant WS would either GET REPENTANT or do the BS a favor and leave. Ah, I think I get what you're trying to say now - I misread you the first time. I thought you meant that a WS felt like crap because of the affair and not because of a strong reaction from their betrayed partner. Sorry - carry on Link to post Share on other sites
gettingstronger Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 She stays, quite simply, because he has convinced her she doesn't deserve to leave. And why not? Because she is a cheating whore. So yeah, it has a lot to do with infidelity. I kind of see this, but at the same time, I also see two very dysfunctional people that even without infidelity would have a reason to treat each other horribly- and I agree with the basic premise that two wrongs do not make a right- I would not feel good about myself if I used my husbands A as grounds to mentally beat the crap out of him for life, that would make me just as dysfunctional as he was during his A- Any relationship should not be a matter of - what you say (or do) can and will be used against you- When I do bring up matters of his A, I do try to do it calmly and with as little malice as possible ( I am hurting so I am sure I am not always successful)- 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Ah, I think I get what you're trying to say now - I misread you the first time. I thought you meant that a WS felt like crap because of the affair and not because of a strong reaction from their betrayed partner. Sorry - carry on I have read your posts. I know you are sdmarter than this. It is possible to feel like crap for both. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 She stays, quite simply, because he has convinced her she doesn't deserve to leave. And why not? Because she is a cheating whore. So yeah, it has a lot to do with infidelity. I kind of see this, but at the same time, I also see two very dysfunctional people that even without infidelity would have a reason to treat each other horribly- and I agree with the basic premise that two wrongs do not make a right- I would not feel good about myself if I used my husbands A as grounds to mentally beat the crap out of him for life, that would make me just as dysfunctional as he was during his A- Any relationship should not be a matter of - what you say (or do) can and will be used against you- When I do bring up matters of his A, I do try to do it calmly and with as little malice as possible ( I am hurting so I am sure I am not always successful)- Exactly, you are still hurting from the horrific betrayal he chose to bestow on your family. But because you also have a goal of reconciliation, you don't only think about your feelings, you also think about his, even though he was the one who cheated. I think that is the bottom line. You have chosen to let go of your right to be the only one who hurts or the only one who counts because you have the ultimate goal of a marriage that is actually reconciled instead of just two people who are trapped together. This is one of two keys I see as necessary for real reconciliation and not just perpetual limbo. FIRST, the WS must own their A, have real remorse for the A, and work hard to change completely. They must be patient and transparent and focus on their BS's healing. Then ,at some point, the BS has to decide (and probably over and over) if they want to accept that well- proven olive branch, set aside the past (without ever forgetting it) and try to build a new marriage. Without both of these elements in play, a couple might still be legally married, but they are NOT reconciling. I actually am coming to believe that the go to response, especially when a woman cheats, should be divorce. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I actually am coming to believe that the go to response, especially when a woman cheats, should be divorce. and that is EXACTLY what YOU should do if you find yourself in that situation. YOU have made that decision based on what you have read and studied from others. But I will remind you.... don't make that call for anyone else. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I actually am coming to believe that the go to response, especially when a woman cheats, should be divorce. and that is EXACTLY what YOU should do if you find yourself in that situation. YOU have made that decision based on what you have read and studied from others. But I will remind you.... don't make that call for anyone else. Of course I don't. I'd have to have magical powers for that. Look, obviously I am a very poor communicator (odd, given my job) or this just isn't the place for these questions. I'll bow out. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I see no reason for you to bow out....you have a valid question and seem to want to discuss it. It might even be a good idea to start your own thread about this particular topic...tell us exactly why you want to discuss it or need to discuss it....give us your opinions and we go from there. I don't think anyone here is offended by what you have stated or wants you to leave the discussion. That is how we learn from each other. Discussions helps us to think, to broaden our horizons....light banter is a good thing....as long as no one takes it personally or becomes aggressive. I am liking you miss Autumn...you are a thinker! If what i said offended you..please accept my humblest apology. I am not here to hurt others in any way shape or form. I am here to learn and to help if i can. Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I suppose my basic question for those who stay, who regret staying, and who make their wives well aware that they regret it....does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap? Is that part of the secondary gain? This is something I honestly would like to know. Are their men out there (I say men because this seems to be an overwhelmingly male issue) who choose to stay mired so that their wives cannot forget how awful they are/were? Is they part of the desired outcome? ******************************************************************* I do not always agree with you but none the less value your post.... I am sorry to answer this but Overwhelmingly Yes...You words were "does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap." I believe they do not just want them to feel like crap they want them to feel" The Hell" they are going thru...Alot of WWs feel like crap (some for getting caught...some for having to leave their AP..and some for just having to deal eith the fallout.and a few are torn to pieces for their actions and what is has done to their family..But IMHO they will NEVER the feel sometimes soul crushing pain that has been bestowed on their Betrayed husbands... Im only looking at this from a BHs angle because i am one... My other post ( I think )..delved into this.....Many here mostly Bhs...THINK they can R ...They think they can weather the "triggers...self doubt..mind movies...etc..." But in their heart they KNOW they cannot ever get over what has happened..AS a Man Drifter said it best in our heads our WWS can do Everything to help a us heal, follow the WWs scrpit to a tee...But she can Never UNFU@K the other man ...Ever...For a great deal of BHs here that Never leaves them and They truly know they will never R... The sex is such a big deal to alot of men here ...we can never recover..(meaning stay in R...or stay married..) At this time in R IMO BOTH parties are in Hell...and will stay ??? until one of them can no longer stand the Pain.. Roughly 65% of Bhs want to stay in the marriage after D-DAY...in 3 years of that 65% +- 75-80% are divorced...Tough odds even for Vegas.. After what I was shown ..I knew at that second ..i could never stay with my WW...R would never be an option...mostly I KNEW I would never over the lies and betrayal...so I filed for D and never had a moments regret .. But back to your question..AS Men sometimes 'WE despise the very thing we LOVE." sad but true...Badkarma 1 Link to post Share on other sites
katielee Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 why "especially when a woman cheats?" Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 why "especially when a woman cheats?" Pls read my above post..Badkarma Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I believe in our "equal" world...because male and female are wired differently...there is still a stigma that goes along with a cheating wife. I was one...so don't throw stones at me. As women...I think we are raised...or at least I was raised...with the idea that some men cheat. But i never heard it discussed that some women cheat too....and even more so in this day and age of equal jobs, equal pay, equal rights...and most women working outside the home. So as women...i think we are almost taught to expect it and to forgive it. But as MEN....i think there is a huge stigma that comes from having a soiled wife. You must be a weak man...if you stay with a cheating woman....how can you forgive a woman who opened her legs to another man....on and on. We have witnessed these very things on a different site. In reality....cheating is cheating...regardless of who does it. It hurts, it destroys and you can never forget it....EVEN if you divorce. It becomes a part of who you are...but it does not have to define you. So even though Autumn is a woman and she made the statement...especially when a woman cheats.....it implies that the old stigma still applies. It is more acceptable for a man to cheat than a woman. It isn't right...but it is the way it is. Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) I actually am coming to believe that the go to response, especially when a woman cheats, should be divorce. and that is EXACTLY what YOU should do if you find yourself in that situation. YOU have made that decision based on what you have read and studied from others. But I will remind you.... don't make that call for anyone else. Have not heard from both of you in a while...glad you are back...much respect on this end for you and Mr. Adams... I remember reading of your story months and months ago...and remember you stating ( i know you both were young),,You said you told Mr. Adams too much... My question is ..did he ask for those "details" and do you feel now that you would have handled it another way... Most here believe the Ws should answer EVERY question regardless of the pain it causes....after all they were the ones that betrayed their spouse..and many here feel the BS is due all questions answered.. At that time the BS can make a decision to stay or go...they are due at least that.. as always hold you answers in high regard...Badkarma P.S. you answer ...i think...may help others who would not quite know what direction to take... Edited January 29, 2015 by badkarma2013 Link to post Share on other sites
katielee Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 It is more acceptable for a man to cheat than a woman. It isn't right...but it is the way it is. disagree. I think both genders are looked at as unacceptable to cheat. And what that has to do with a man staying, I don't know, except he'd be allowing SOCIETY to make that decision for him, not himself. Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 disagree. I think both genders are looked at as unacceptable to cheat. And what that has to do with a man staying, I don't know, except he'd be allowing SOCIETY to make that decision for him, not himself. "I believe they do not just want them to feel like crap they want them to feel" The Hell" they are going thru...Alot of WWs feel like crap (some for getting caught...some for having to leave their AP..and some for just having to deal eith the fallout.and a few are torn to pieces for their actions and what is has done to their family..But IMHO they will NEVER the feel sometimes soul crushing pain that has been bestowed on their Betrayed husbands... Im only looking at this from a BHs angle because i am one... My other post ( I think )..delved into this.....Many here mostly Bhs...THINK they can R ...They think they can weather the "triggers...self doubt..mind movies...etc..." But in their heart they KNOW they cannot ever get over what has happened..AS a Man Drifter said it best in our heads our WWS can do Everything to help a us heal, follow the WWs scrpit to a tee...But she can Never UNFU@K the other man ...Ever...For a great deal of BHs here that Never leaves them and They truly know they will never R... The sex is such a big deal to alot of men here ...we can never recover..(meaning stay in R...or stay married..) At this time in R IMO BOTH parties are in Hell...and will stay ??? until one of them can no longer stand the Pain.. Roughly 65% of Bhs want to stay in the marriage after D-DAY...in 3 years of that 65% +- 75-80% are divorced...Tough odds even for Vegas" Do not know what more I can add.... Link to post Share on other sites
katielee Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I only have my experience to go from - we are five years out from my affair- still married. I cannot forget what he did either, it never goes away, but I'm still here, three years later. We have a pretty good marriage. He wants to remain married more than I do, but I'm getting there. Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I only have my experience to go from - we are five years out from my affair- still married. I cannot forget what he did either, it never goes away, but I'm still here, three years later. We have a pretty good marriage. He wants to remain married more than I do, but I'm getting there. ******************************************************************* "He wants to stay married more that you"...You call that a good marriage.. Do you think he does not know and feels that from you...If you can state that he knows he wants the marriage more that you...What do you think..as a man ...that does to him. Sorry Im no ones Plan B...if i felt that from anyone..you could leave or i would... If that is your definition of 'A Good Marriage.." i will continue to stay single .. Link to post Share on other sites
katielee Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) yep, I am behind him in my healing and he understands that it will likely take me as long as it took him to be ok. It's a marathon, not a sprint. he is not my Plan B. HE is being patient while I dip my toe in the water. Edited January 29, 2015 by katielee added a sentence. Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 yep, I am behind him in my healing and he understands that it will likely take me as long as it took him to be ok. It's a marathon, not a sprint. he is not my Plan B. HE is being patient while I dip my toe in the water. Again ....if I felt that I wanted the marriage etc...more that the OP.. I would choose to run the marathon by myself.. Regardless ...Hope you both can heal.. Link to post Share on other sites
TrustedthenBusted Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 All I can say about a BS making a WS feel like crap is that the last thing I want to do is live with someone who is constantly walking around with her tail between her legs because she pissed on the carpet 5 years ago. That's not the spouse I want. I want the one I married, or one as close to that person as is possible. I think a lot of BS's do punish their WS in a misguided effort to force remorse out of them, or make them share in the pain or misery. My problem with that is first... it doesn't work. Second, it's not R. When I finally came out of the swamp of misery, self doubt and despair, I started doing the things I enjoyed again, laughing with friends, being MYSELF again, and finding happiness. It was only after I returned to the living, and reclaimed my life as the happy-go-lucky chap that I am, that she really began to express the kind of unsolicited remorse that BS's are typically happy to see. Maybe when I'm happy and normal, she is seeing the man she really regrets cheating on? Dunno. But when I'm happy, I am able to see her affair for what it was. Her problem, her issue, and now her cross to bear. It is not a reflection of me, and that helps me go forward. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
purplesorrow Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 So even though Autumn is a woman and she made the statement...especially when a woman cheats.....it implies that the old stigma still applies. It is more acceptable for a man to cheat than a woman. It isn't right...but it is the way it is So who are these men cheating with if not women? Doesn't that make the numbers equal? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TrustedthenBusted Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 So even though Autumn is a woman and she made the statement...especially when a woman cheats.....it implies that the old stigma still applies. It is more acceptable for a man to cheat than a woman. It isn't right...but it is the way it is So who are these men cheating with if not women? Doesn't that make the numbers equal? Men cheating isn't more "right".... It's just less surprising. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 disagree. I think both genders are looked at as unacceptable to cheat. And what that has to do with a man staying, I don't know, except he'd be allowing SOCIETY to make that decision for him, not himself. Well of course you are right...I don't think anyone was saying contrary. Everyone has to make their own decisions as to what is right for them....but to deny that society does not have an influence in our choices? Of course it does. Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 So even though Autumn is a woman and she made the statement...especially when a woman cheats.....it implies that the old stigma still applies. It is more acceptable for a man to cheat than a woman. It isn't right...but it is the way it is So who are these men cheating with if not women? Doesn't that make the numbers equal? No...its just of all the Women a MM has an A with Not All are single...By along shot... Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 yep, I am behind him in my healing and he understands that it will likely take me as long as it took him to be ok. It's a marathon, not a sprint. he is not my Plan B. HE is being patient while I dip my toe in the water. I would ask you..is he giving you everything you need from him to heal? Is he helping you to carry the load? HE is being patient? He should be not only patient...he should carry your load. Link to post Share on other sites
purplesorrow Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Men cheating isn't more "right".... It's just less surprising. Only the last two questions were mine. These men are cheating with women so how is it more acceptable for men to cheat? And how is it implied that men cheat more? For every man cheating, there is a woman too. Link to post Share on other sites
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