badkarma2013 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 if the BH can't get over it and want to inflict pain, why betray themselves? Why not simply divorce? Again ..I divorced quickly due to circumstances that were handed to me.. However..The BHs Want to inflict anger, pain and humiliation onto their WWS because they want their WWs to FEEL the same soul crushing pain and humiliation they are feeling everyday 24 hrs a day... If this pattern does not change,, This will continue for months or years until one party can no longer stand the pain.....and then they will do what they should have done many months or years ago...file for D.. Yes they betray themselves because they were betrayed by their WWs.. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
katielee Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yes they betray themselves because they were betrayed by their WWs.. no, they betray themselves because they don't know what to do with the pain of being betrayed. There is a choice - deal with pain a healthy way, or deal with it unhealthily, which just damages themselves. I didn't cause my husband's affair any more than he caused mine. I don't have that much power over another person. My choice to have an affair rested solely on me no matter what preceded that. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 no, they betray themselves because they don't know what to do with the pain of being betrayed. There is a choice - deal with pain a healthy way, or deal with it unhealthily, which just damages themselves. I didn't cause my husband's affair any more than he caused mine. I don't have that much power over another person. My choice to have an affair rested solely on me no matter what preceded that. You are 100% correct ...Most men in general...when betrayed and or deceived...will lash out and wish to inflict that same pain onto the ones who (real or imagined ) bestowed the pain onto them... You are so right we DO NOT know what to do with the pain of betrayal.... Well said and IMHO very true... Thank You for the insight ..I learn something about myself everyday... 2 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Infidelity is terrible 3 Link to post Share on other sites
QueenElsa Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 ******************************************************************* I do not always agree with you but none the less value your post.... I am sorry to answer this but Overwhelmingly Yes...You words were "does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap." I believe they do not just want them to feel like crap they want them to feel" The Hell" they are going thru...Alot of WWs feel like crap (some for getting caught...some for having to leave their AP..and some for just having to deal eith the fallout.and a few are torn to pieces for their actions and what is has done to their family..But IMHO they will NEVER the feel sometimes soul crushing pain that has been bestowed on their Betrayed husbands... Im only looking at this from a BHs angle because i am one... My other post ( I think )..delved into this.....Many here mostly Bhs...THINK they can R ...They think they can weather the "triggers...self doubt..mind movies...etc..." But in their heart they KNOW they cannot ever get over what has happened..AS a Man Drifter said it best in our heads our WWS can do Everything to help a us heal, follow the WWs scrpit to a tee...But she can Never UNFU@K the other man ...Ever...For a great deal of BHs here that Never leaves them and They truly know they will never R... The sex is such a big deal to alot of men here ...we can never recover..(meaning stay in R...or stay married..) At this time in R IMO BOTH parties are in Hell...and will stay ??? until one of them can no longer stand the Pain.. Roughly 65% of Bhs want to stay in the marriage after D-DAY...in 3 years of that 65% +- 75-80% are divorced...Tough odds even for Vegas.. After what I was shown ..I knew at that second ..i could never stay with my WW...R would never be an option...mostly I KNEW I would never over the lies and betrayal...so I filed for D and never had a moments regret .. But back to your question..AS Men sometimes 'WE despise the very thing we LOVE." sad but true...Badkarma I think I have the male response to infidelity. The sex is/was always super-important to me. He can't unf*ck us from this now. And the sex is one of the many things that remains broken. For me the biggest trigger is and was the sex. Just about everything else I could get over. Even if he had told me he was in love blar de blar with someone else. Even if it was an "emotional affair." Frankly, I don't give a crap whom he has lunch with, or a friendship that perhaps shares a "little too much." People have feelings, we are social creatures. Doesn't bother me. Feelings come and go, I've had crushes too. But the commitment is what builds the strongest feelings. And the sex is the biggest part of that. I cared and still care about the sex. 8 Link to post Share on other sites
merrmeade Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The MC asked again what I wanted right now. I said clarity! Truth! She said "I think you want to punish WS by letting him stay." She could've been right but I don't think so at all. In fact IF that was going to be a part of my future relationship AT ALL with my WH (D, R or anything in between) then I'd be working on that wholeheartedly as a loving act to myself. I wouldn't want to live like that. Good grief! Do they all say that or did we see the same MC? Doubt it since I was in a rural setting. At the time, I was too numb and raw to understand why ANYone would say something so cruel and unhelpful. I knew enough to feel angry and rejected her as the person we would see then and there. I still don't understand it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Confused48 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't think it is all that far fetched to think a BS would keep the WS, in part, to punish the BS. I'm sure it happens a lot. However, I doubt those are the BS taking their WS to MC appointments that the BS set up. That is a bit far fetched IMO. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
ladydesigner Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Again ..I divorced quickly due to circumstances that were handed to me.. However..The BHs Want to inflict anger, pain and humiliation onto their WWS because they want their WWs to FEEL the same soul crushing pain and humiliation they are feeling everyday 24 hrs a day... If this pattern does not change,, This will continue for months or years until one party can no longer stand the pain.....and then they will do what they should have done many months or years ago...file for D.. Yes they betray themselves because they were betrayed by their WWs.. Agh I find this to be so true and if I cannot stop then the right thing to do would be to D, but in the meantime I have experienced False R for the umpteenth time and well I have no reason to be treating my WH very nicely at this point. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
RightThere Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 My H says I want to keep playing the victim. That is my favorite card that WS's love to pull. "Why do you want to keep playing the victim?" Because you victimized me and aren't remorseful for it. 8 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Agh I find this to be so true and if I cannot stop then the right thing to do would be to D, but in the meantime I have experienced False R for the umpteenth time and well I have no reason to be treating my WH very nicely at this point. How awful. FR's are just beyond cruel. I'll put it this way, if the only way I could get any misery out of my WS - in other words, if they didn't feel the misery of remorse on their own - I wouldn't torture myself by sticking around trying to elicit it. On the other hand, if they are broken completely over the horribleness of their actions, I would need a lot of time, but I would try to not stay there forever. Then again, I have just recently felt the sting of betrayal that I know pales in comparison to what you married folks are going through, and I can hardly breathe some moments. So if he actually came into a room I was in at this point I might throw something pointy...repeatedly. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) You are 100% correct ...Most men in general...when betrayed and or deceived...will lash out and wish to inflict that same pain onto the ones who (real or imagined ) bestowed the pain onto them... You are so right we DO NOT know what to do with the pain of betrayal.... Well said and IMHO very true... Thank You for the insight ..I learn something about myself everyday... I did a lot of inflicting of pain on my wife the first couple of months and I got bogged down in the self pity and negative emotions of the mind movies and everything she had done to me not only during the affair but all my hurts prior. And about a month ago after realizing that there are a lot of men here that are still reeling from affairs from years ago that I needed to let go of all that. I talked at length about a lot of the posts I've read here with my IC. She asked me if I wanted to be that bitter angry guy next month, next year or years from now. She helped me realize I was inflicting a lot of pain on myself and I decided not to be that guy. I feel it is a decision that anyone can make for themselves. I had to make that call to be whole again. I feel stronger now, much stronger, and I know I can stay or I can walk away but what I refuse to be is bitter and angry and resentful for something I can't change. That just hurts me and my happiness. So I'm living like it never happened. I asked myself how can me being bitter and angry help me? All it does it punish her and it's really not much punishment. And rather than help me it was leaving me mired in negative emotions. We both know she has a debt to me that can never really be repaid. I have to accept that (and I have) and either divorce her or move forward. I'm consciously choosing to move forward and choosing to be happy. And happiness is a choice. I know it's still very early(4 months since dday) but so far it's working. Me being selfless about the affair has allowed us to reconnect in ways that were not possible before. She has been exponentally more candid, the conversations are deep and meaningful. She has stopped all blaming and is taking more and more responsibility. There are no more lies. Many here will not be able to let the pain and horror go but for me I see it as the best thing I could possibly do for myself. Edited February 17, 2015 by VeryBrokenMan 3 Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 posted by VerybrokenMan:I asked myself how can me being bitter and angry help me? All it does it punish her and it's really not much punishment. And rather than help me it was leaving me mired in negative emotions. We both know she has a debt to me that can never really be repaid. I have to accept that (and I have) and either divorce her or move forward. I'm consciously choosing to move forward and choosing to be happy. And happiness is a choice I hope you can recover and find peace... I am moving forward also..I filed for divorce and I chose to forgive AND be happy....I agree happiness is a choice...so is a Divorce...That worked for me..I have never looked back... 2 Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I am moving forward also..I filed for divorce and I chose to forgive AND be happy....I agree happiness is a choice...so is a Divorce...That worked for me..I have never looked back... The key point here is to give up the bitterness and anger regardless. That is the key to being happy not whether you stay or go in my opinion. But everyone's story is different, there are some behaviors that would be the breaking point. For me that point has not been reached yet but it could still happen. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ladydesigner Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The key point here is to give up the bitterness and anger regardless. That is the key to being happy not whether you stay or go in my opinion. But everyone's story is different, there are some behaviors that would be the breaking point. For me that point has not been reached yet but it could still happen. This is going to take me some time. Having experienced multiple infidelities and false r, I have already gone through getting over the A only to be thrown back into this nonsense again with false r. I am very bitter and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. I don't want to be bitter, but I don't feel happy either. In fact I should be the last person anyone talks to about M or relationship advice 3 Link to post Share on other sites
dichotomy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) This came up in counseling. For a long time - I punished my WS because she would not beat herself up over what she did and who she hurt. I resented this role I took - as well as her resistance to it. It basically made us both "bad guys" long after dDay. After we started counseling it got easier for me to let go of this (but not 100%) because the therapists we had were willing to call my wife out on it and get some modest accountability and regret from her. Edited February 17, 2015 by dichotomy 2 Link to post Share on other sites
RightThere Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 This is going to take me some time. Having experienced multiple infidelities and false r, I have already gone through getting over the A only to be thrown back into this nonsense again with false r. I am very bitter and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. I don't want to be bitter, but I don't feel happy either. In fact I should be the last person anyone talks to about M or relationship advice Join the club. The problem with false R is you put so much effort into the first go around, that you do not have the same effort for the second (or third..or fourth..). It's almost ironic in that I believe the original affair could be dealt with and hard work could repair the damage. Another infidelity is a whole new kind of "you are the dumbest sucker on the planet" type of feeling. I find I'm actually not bitter, just numb. It very much fits the bill of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. If only the WS would put a fraction of the effort into R that they did their A. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
HereNorThere Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I think a lot posters get the concepts of forgiveness and trust mixed a little too often. It's unhealthy to keep punishing a cheater or harbor resentment for them, but it takes years to earn back trust. Also, you have to really decide for yourself if it's something that's really forgivable because some things simply are not. If you decide to R, take time to date your spouse. Treat them as you would any stranger your met off a dating site because truthfully, you don't know them. And what's even worse is that you actually do know them and already know they are capable of living a double life and purposely hurting their loved ones. It's okay to take time to make sure this new person is someone truly worthy of your company. Everyone just wants to go back to the way things were before the other spouse got busted, but that's rug-sweeping. It's a lot healthier to accept that your life as it truly is. You always see abused/battered women on television and wonder how they could go back to their abuser, but this forum shows you how that truly works. Some people are so afraid of the unknown, so co-dependent, they would rather stay in an abusive relationship with a toxic partner than go out and forge a new life. It's almost like a form of stockholm syndrome. You see people here grasping for any sort of reason stay, even when the cheater blatantly tells them they are unwanted and not good enough. Edited February 17, 2015 by HereNorThere 7 Link to post Share on other sites
toolforgrowth Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 If only the WS would put a fraction of the effort into R that they did their A. I don't believe my xWW was ever capable of this. She told me she settled for me, and I believed her. And now she wonders why I literally want nothing to do with her. Lol I think for some it's impossible. I raked her over the coals and divorced her. Never once looked back. Far too many WS's do the absolute bare minimum, and far too many BS's lap it up because of their poor self esteem. Thus, false R. I've always believed that my xWW would have to work DAMNED hard to earn my trust and respect back. I've also always believed that she wouldn't have it in her to actually do so. And I was right. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
drifter777 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Happiness is a choice? Then why aren't all of us happy all the time? No one "chooses" to be unhappy - no one. Forgiveness is not "a gift we give ourselves" - it is something that must be earned. Faking happiness and false forgiveness lead to the failed reconciliation being experienced by many here at LS. Happiness comes from self-examination, security, and pursuing your passion. Forgiving infidelity requires that the BS be willing to forgive and the WS willing to earn forgiveness. And then - maybe. I don't pretend to live in blissful happiness or that I've forgiven my wife. I do know that I am making progress on both fronts and I know that I will never lie to myself or just fake it. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
merrmeade Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Wish we'd had Dichotomy's therapists...After we started counseling it got easier for me to let go of this (but not 100%) because the therapists we had were willing to call my wife out on it and get some modest accountability and regret from her. VBM's peace of mind is enviable, but "living like it never happened"? Impossible. That can't be what you mean, is it?.....I feel stronger now, much stronger, and I know I can stay or I can walk away but what I refuse to be is bitter and angry and resentful for something I can't change. That just hurts me and my happiness. So I'm living like it never happened. I asked myself how can me being bitter and angry help me? All it does it punish her and it's really not much punishment. And rather than help me it was leaving me mired in negative emotions. We both know she has a debt to me that can never really be repaid. I have to accept that (and I have) and either divorce her or move forward. I'm consciously choosing to move forward and choosing to be happy. And happiness is a choice. Yeah, talk is cheap, tfg...I've always believed that my xWW would have to work DAMNED hard to earn my trust and respect back. I've also always believed that she wouldn't have it in her to actually do so. And I was right.But this, THIS one cuts right through the center of the gray area. Not black or white either, just sharp, clear. Thanks, HNT....I think a lot posters get the concepts of forgiveness and trust mixed a little too often. It's unhealthy to keep punishing a cheater or harbor resentment for them, but it takes years to earn back trust. Also, you have to really decide for yourself if it's something that's really forgivable because some things simply are not. If you decide to R, take time to date your spouse. Treat them as you would any stranger your met off a dating site because truthfully, you don't know them. And what's even worse is that you actually do know them and already know they are capable of living a double life and purposely hurting their loved ones. It's okay to take time to make sure this new person is someone truly worthy of your company. Everyone just wants to go back to the way things were before the other spouse got busted, but that's rug-sweeping. It's a lot healthier to accept that your life as it truly is. You always see abused/battered women on television and wonder how they could go back to their abuser, but this forum shows you how that truly works. Some people are so afraid of the unknown, so co-dependent, they would rather stay in an abusive relationship with a toxic partner than go out and forge a new life. It's almost like a form of stockholm syndrome. You see people here grasping for any sort of reason stay, even when the cheater blatantly tells them they are unwanted and not good enough.Sometimes I think it will be a matter, at the very least, of regaining my own integrity, though I can't imagine going out with only my self-respect beside me. But neither can I survive the exhausting battle between brittle cynicism and disdain. There are days like today where I look at the little Peyton Place his wanderlust created and stew on the elaborate mindf--ks he and his conquests created to live with themselves and fool the rest of us into extending them respect. Edited February 18, 2015 by merrmeade 3 Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Happiness is a choice? Then why aren't all of us happy all the time? No one "chooses" to be unhappy - no one. Forgiveness is not "a gift we give ourselves" - it is something that must be earned. Faking happiness and false forgiveness lead to the failed reconciliation being experienced by many here at LS. Happiness comes from self-examination, security, and pursuing your passion. Forgiving infidelity requires that the BS be willing to forgive and the WS willing to earn forgiveness. And then - maybe. I don't pretend to live in blissful happiness or that I've forgiven my wife. I do know that I am making progress on both fronts and I know that I will never lie to myself or just fake it. It really is a choice and it's not faking it, try reading any of these titles: Amazon.com: happiness is a choice Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Wish we'd had Dichotomy's therapists... VBM's peace of mind is enviable, but "living like it never happened"? Impossible. That can't be what you mean, is it?..... I mean when we are not talking about the affair that I'm living the life I want. We are not rug-sweeping or pretending it never happened. I'm happy because I'm not going to let her actions and choices determine my happiness. She does not have that power I do. I'm expecting a lot from her and I'm getting it. In return I'm letting her see the way I want to live going forward. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Lion Heart Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I can relate to both of these as well. My wife is a burier and I am an analyzer. I often wonder how much of that is our inherent differences and how much of it is because of the roles we have in the affair - me being the BH and wanting to "understand" and her being the WS and wishing to not face what happened. She coped by burying it so deeply that indeed the affair was something that "happened to her". Moving past this hurdle of her seeing the affair as something imposed upon her and out of her control rather than taking responsibility for her choices was challenging. She also buried things quickly after the affair - at a point where the AP was viewed in a positive light. I really believe that after she was done pining for her AP she did not think of him through the years (she claims) but her view of him as a person remained frozen in this place. Thus, when we unburied things after nearly two decades, she carried a view of her AP as a good fellow who only wanted the best for her (aack). She really wanted to cling to that notion for quite some time. I think the roles of 'burier'& 'analyser' can swap depending on who did the thing. In R the WS will typically want to bury the A and the BS will typically want to analyse the behaviours. During R my WH wants to bury and forget his A (9w 3d since D Day) but he's very happy to analyse every minute 'thing' I did in 15yrs. Eg I now know he's furious about the colour I chose for our balcony railing and other things of similar magnitude. Burying things is minimizing, it's an escape strategy for the WS then WS deciding to become the analyser of BS is blame shifting. The above post has helped me distinguish how in R both partners need to get their own behaviours out on the table and analyse them individually and together. MC & IC may help. It goes without saying that communication is the key to a true reconciliation. From the communication both partners need to take responsibility for their actions and decisions that negatively impacted the marriage, apologise and maybe get the help required to change, replace or eliminate these behaviours. Lion Heart. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Lion Heart Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Happiness is a choice? Then why aren't all of us happy all the time? No one "chooses" to be unhappy - no one. Forgiveness is not "a gift we give ourselves" - it is something that must be earned. Faking happiness and false forgiveness lead to the failed reconciliation being experienced by many here at LS. Happiness comes from self-examination, security, and pursuing your passion. Forgiving infidelity requires that the BS be willing to forgive and the WS willing to earn forgiveness. And then - maybe. I don't pretend to live in blissful happiness or that I've forgiven my wife. I do know that I am making progress on both fronts and I know that I will never lie to myself or just fake it. It does annoy me how many people spout unrealistic virtues in life, no matter what the situation is. "happiness" well I'd always rather have contentment. "Forgiveness" being a BW need to work on forgiving myself for choosing an unworthy spouse and father for my children. "Non reactionary" well that's quite incredulous a concept unless you're a monk alone in a cave. Loveshack exists because we react to others. Our workplaces and families have reactionary dynamics. That's how we as individuals get exponential growth! But only when all parties are well enough to be motivated and focussed on the same outcome. People who have major character flaws and personality disorders cannot contribute to deep fulfilling relationships of an enduring nature. So ofcourse we react! By D or counselling or loveshack or attempting R. No man or woman is an island when we live with a family or work. Disclaimer: IMHO only. I practised mindfulness, meditation and many other mental quieteners for years. These techniques work to strengthen and reinforce our minds to be self reliant. But when we MARRY and have children, we commit to other people. We serve, give and receive. We have vows to be upheld. Rules. So as much as people hope we'd be totally unaffected by whatever they throw at us, the slaps in the face of truth of As and other mountainous stuff is totally confronting and we REACT. Even D is a reaction to an A. Have other BSs noticed that they've had far more lectures from people on WSs side (than WSs get) about how we shouldn't react badly, we should forgive, WE need to do blah blah blah. Who are these people? What planet do they come from? I REACT with "don't talk to ME! Talk to him!". And I guess I shouldn't "react" at all. Monk in a cave that's me. And living with a WH I'm sure to reach enlightenment too. Yeah right. Lion Heart. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
ladydesigner Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 "Forgiveness" being a BW need to work on forgiving myself for choosing an unworthy spouse and father for my children. Right?! If any forgiving is going to happen on my end it will be to forgive myself for choosing such a sh*tty partner in life. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
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