Does the BS wish they had divorced their WS 5,10, 20 years later?

[flowergirl14]

Flowergirl...I don't hear remorse in his statements to you and until he understands the pain he caused you....you may not be able to forgive him to trust that he will not hurt you again.

 

Has he read the book how to help your spouse heal from your affair?

 

We have been to mc and he lied and denied to the mc. Finally, I gave up. He never had put any blame on me until counseling. Then he came up with all sorts of retarded things that had nothing to do with telling me the truth. Like he doesn't think I have any friends. A. Not true I have a few Close friendships that have lasted 20 + years. B. What does that have to do with him having an affair? Of course the counselor jumped right on the bandwagon. It was appaling. The counselor parrots to us .."so you want her to have more friends?" Point being the counselor and my wh were all over the place. We have been to 2 mcs and I have been to 2 individual counselors. I have yet to find one worth a red cent. Thats a whole other post.

I think its telling that he has said on more than one occasion that he doesn't want to be married and yet..he is still here. When his A ended I had no knowledge of it. So he could have left then. The OW made suggestions to him. I wasnt a bs that begged for hiim to choose me because I literally didn't know about the A. If its so bad then leave.

BTW we have been married 21 years, 3 kids and im a stay at home mother.

[Mrs. John Adams]

We have been to mc and he lied and denied to the mc. Finally, I gave up. He never had put any blame on me until counseling. Then he came up with all sorts of retarded things that had nothing to do with telling me the truth. Like he doesn't think I have any friends. A. Not true I have a few Close friendships that have lasted 20 + years. B. What does that have to do with him having an affair? Of course the counselor jumped right on the bandwagon. It was appaling. The counselor parrots to us .."so you want her to have more friends?" Point being the counselor and my wh were all over the place. We have been to 2 mcs and I have been to 2 individual counselors. I have yet to find one worth a red cent. Thats a whole other post.

I think its telling that he has said on more than one occasion that he doesn't want to be married and yet..he is still here. When his A ended I had no knowledge of it. So he could have left then. The OW made suggestions to him. I wasnt a bs that begged for hiim to choose me because I literally didn't know about the A. If its so bad then leave.

BTW we have been married 21 years, 3 kids and im a stay at home mother.

 

 

John and i went to a counselor after my affair...and she spent most of the time watching the damn clock...waiting for the time to be up. We went individually. I went then he went....and she tore into him and told him he was a male chauvinist pig. So i can totally understand your disillusionment with your counselor.

 

John talked to my mom...and it was the best thing he could have done...she loved me...but she supported him. If it had not been for my mom...I think we would have divorced.

 

Your husband...has some issues...big time. He is not accepting responsibility...he is not remorseful...and he is blame shifting....just to name a few things.

 

I am terribly sorry you are in this situation....i hope you can find the help you need....and a divorce lawyer could be the answer.

[drifter777]

I urge everyone to not give up on counseling due to a few bad incidents. Point blank the counselor with your bitches. Hold them accountable - they are working for you after all. Set goals and milestones and review them at the start of each session. Once you are satisfied with the ground rules then extend them some trust. Don't freak out if it seems they are "taking sides" against you. Think about it - why would they do that? Give them the benefit of the doubt that they know a lot more about this then you do and its ok if you don't understand or agree with them. Give it a fair shot and influence your SO to do the same. You can fire them anytime but you really should give them a chance.

 

No, I'm not a professional counselor. I don't play one on TV. But I've worked with a few and you need to own your therapy and not blame the counselor if your life problems don't all disappear during therapy. You should be working harder then they are - its your life.

[Confused48]

, he starts saying he doesn't know if he wants to stay married. In other words, when the heat is on him he wants to flee/QUOTE]

 

Yes, any discussion of the A, brings out rage from WS. I don't think it is a conscious effort to shut down discussion, but the effect is the same as if it was.

 

We have been to mc and he lied and denied to the mc. Finally, I gave up. He never had put any blame on me until counseling. Then he came up with all sorts of retarded things that had nothing to do with telling me the truth. Like he doesn't think I have any friends. A. Not true I have a few Close friendships that have lasted 20 + years. B. What does that have to do with him having an affair?

 

This happened to me too.

 

I think its telling that he has said on more than one occasion that he doesn't want to be married and yet..he is still here.

 

The fing bastard! Mine too. Get the f out if you want and don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way!

[Glarner]

A bit late to the party here… but I’ll add my two cents. Mystory is not so different from Mr & Mrs John Adams in some ways. 20-21years ago my wife had a series of two brief affairs (EA and EA/PA). We had agood life together before that (8 years) and also since that time (including raising2 children). I do not regret taking the road of R – rather I do regret themistakes we made along that road that slowed / stopped the healing. A goodportion of what happened and the pain was rugswept until nearly 3 years agowhen I really feel we began our full R in earnest. As the Adams’ have said wehad a good, loving relationship but there was a distance; a wall; somethingmissing. That is what we have been working on the past few years. It is a longstory, but I thought I’d say a few things from our experience (please – be sureto note that this is our experience only):

 

 

A few pages back Mrs John Adams posted something that struckme as being to the core of our more recent challenges. She said that because herhusband had not seen true remorse he could not feel safe about another A nothappening. That was part of the elephant lurking in the room for me. However,another big part (probably larger) was that without demonstration of trueremorse (that she feels my pain and understands it) I could not feel safe thatI was truly loved. Over the years I came to feel pretty safe that another A wasnot on the horizon. But did she really love me? Enough to care to understandwhat I was going through? That was a huge hurdle and one that we are stillstruggling with (getting better every month now that we’re tackling it head on).Early on my WW would avoid those sorts of things like the plague – too muchshame. She loved me, but not enough to move past her shame. Fortunately she didnot give voice like Flowergirl’s WH about wondering if they should divorce – I don’tknow if I could have handled that.

 

 

So it really took my WW 20 years to begin to get it. Duringthose years she was loving and caring in most regards – except she could notget past my inability to move on. She spent most of the time wondering, "why can’t he put it behind him like I have?"As with the Adams’ the thing that has begun to open her eyes to this, and trueremorse, has been much reading (the discussion boards and the book that hasbeen mentioned here were both very helpful). But most of all it has been myinsistence that I will no longer live with that elephant lurking. I will nolonger live sitting up at night watching her sleep and wishing it was alldifferent and we could love each other with the pre-A intensity. It is now awork-in-progress, but so much of the time is filled with joy and closeness. I’mnot as far along as John Adams. There are still dark periods – but even in themidst of those I do not wish we had divorced.

 

 

Our experience with MCs was also not good. Perhaps asDrifter has pointed out I was not forceful enough but I did think I triedpretty hard to balance reflection on the state of our marriage andcommunication with some time spent directly on the affairs and healing for bothof us. Honestly it became on constant struggle to get them to spend time on theaffairs. Right after the affairs I was told we should move onward and examineour relationship and look forward. 20 years later I heard the same thing – from4 different MCs in total. They did help us in many ways, but I was never ableto find the counsel and help that I’ve found in these boards. I know there areexcellent MCs out there. I just never found one (or perhaps I was never able touse what they were offering effectively).

 

 

I wish that I had a wise answer for you flowergirl. Theother posts here have contributed a lot of great thoughts. I feel your pain andhope you find peace in the path you take forward.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Glarner
removing formatting marks??

[merrmeade]

Interesting these similarities. It's reassuring to know others are out there listening to their spouses deliver the same lines.

 

So why would our husbands lie to the marriage counselor, KNOWING that we know the truth? It makes no logical sense. I think one thing is they don't want to look bad to the therapist. They can't trust this person to like them if the unvarnished truth were told. The other thing is it's simply too intolerable to hear out loud. If the truth will debase, degrade, or denigrate, they spin it another way without batting an eyelash.

 

There's still the problem of TT. I think one reason it can go on so long is the difficulty admitting that you've lied. I mean really lied. Over and over. The problem is how much the lie has been repeated between you, including the lie of not lying, and how much you talk about the importance being honest. Also, if the lie has been repeated and some of those times you bought it, well, what's worse to the WS? Telling a lie that the BS accepts or telling the truth, which will upset the BS a lot? So there's no reason to change it and every reason to keep the status quo, isn't there?

 

My husband divulged the really bad facts with great, great difficulty and powerful anger in his voice. It was clearly a herculean effort, as if he were fighting some force, not me, but an internal demon even more powerful than doing the right thing (confessing). He may occasionally still sugarcoat (lie) with me sometimes as well, but not often. He knows that I know everything about every why, when and wherefore, so there's no point. If faced with my pain and helplessness, he becomes catatonic and cannot feel my hurt or help because it is also the source and cause of his abject humiliation. This is not run-of-the-mill WS rug-sweeping. THis is toxic shame, I suppose. In my H's case, it's someone who was beaten and punished for bad things. Dirty laundry was not only not aired in public, it was never acknowledged in his family. Shame, mistakes, wrong-doing were not talked about and if he was caught at something, he was beaten. I've seen the scars.

 

The ethical compromises are not new information either. R for me is no longer whether the personality disorder will permit him to betray me again, but how do I feel about it? How do I feel about him as a person? He treats me well, is loving and sweet, and there's never rancor or backbiting. He wants to make it work. All I have to do is "put the past behind us" as he can see no benefit to making himself vulnerable to strangers (MC).

 

Those are the conditions — and the caveat. Not saying I will. Not saying I won't.

Edited February 14, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

Glarner...thanks for sharing that. I know how painful it is sometimes to relive as you write. I am glad you are getting there. Please don't think ours is perfect...there is no perfect. We still shed tears of regret...we still have the what if moments. They aren't as consuming as they once were....I think the elephant has let the room...but he is outside...if that makes sense. I wish you the best as you continue in your path of recovery....it is a journey we will continue til death i suppose. But as long as i have John by my side and we help each other...the journey isn't so bad. We will make it...one step at a time.

 

merrmeade....I understand your struggles and i admire your strength. I don't know that I could walk your path...I might give up because it seems too hard. The bottom line is what can you live with....do you love him? and does he love you? and is it enough? Only you know the answer best for you....i hope you find it quickly...limbo is a difficult place to be.

[TrustedthenBusted]

My wife says she feels like the AFFAIR happened, but she says its almost as if she has no memory of the AP. Like somehow that part never really happened. Sort of like remembers it, but as if it happened to someone else, or in another life.

 

I believe it, because that's how I feel about some folks from my past, including an old GF that the wife is still jealous of.

 

I know I dated that girl for years and probably slept with her 1000 times, but it's like I have no real memory of it.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Trusted then busted...I can totally relate...and I believe her.

 

I think I am the kind of person that buries bad things...I kind of make them go away. John is a person that analyzes..so we process tragedy differently.

[Zenstudent]

My wife says she feels like the AFFAIR happened, but she says its almost as if she has no memory of the AP. Like somehow that part never really happened. Sort of like remembers it, but as if it happened to someone else, or in another life.

 

I believe it, because that's how I feel about some folks from my past, including an old GF that the wife is still jealous of.

 

I know I dated that girl for years and probably slept with her 1000 times, but it's like I have no real memory of it.

I think people are very different when it comes to remember the past. I dated a girl 30 years ago for a few months, and I remember words, feelings and how it was to touch her body - which makes it hard for me to accept total amnesia in people who chose to betray.

 

I would like to point out a specific phrase in your post - I don't know if you were aware of it when you wrote it: "The affair happened" - this statement is very different from Mrs. Adams': "I can't believe that I did this to John". YKWIM?

 

The way we word things very often reflect our core values to a certain degree (and this is not to say that I question YOUR core values, btw).

[Mrs. John Adams]

Zen student...it took me a long time to come to that place of realization...I am no poster child....

 

But I do agree with you...in many of the stories shared here..I too do not hear true remorse..I hear regret and sorrow..which are on the right track....but remorse is deeper..

 

Can people reconcile without remorse? Yes...marriages can go on to last forever and be be very good. But in my experience ...realizing remorse...taking that next step..allowed John to fully forgive and to heal and to believe and trust that because I truly understand what I did to him...I will never do it again. It has given him for lack of a better word comfort. He can relax and know that I KNOW.

[Confused48]

Zen student...it took me a long time to come to that place of realization...I am no poster child....

 

But I do agree with you...in many of the stories shared here..I too do not hear true remorse..I hear regret and sorrow..which are on the right track....but remorse is deeper..

 

Can people reconcile without remorse? Yes...marriages can go on to last forever and be be very good. But in my experience ...realizing remorse...taking that next step..allowed John to fully forgive and to heal and to believe and trust that because I truly understand what I did to him...I will never do it again. It has given him for lack of a better word comfort. He can relax and know that I KNOW.

 

Is there some part of you/him that understands, bc it was both of you that cheated?

[Glarner]

My wife says she feels like the AFFAIR happened, but she says its almost as if she has no memory of the AP. Like somehow that part never really happened. Sort of like remembers it, but as if it happened to someone else, or in another life.

 

I believe it, because that's how I feel about some folks from my past, including an old GF that the wife is still jealous of.

 

I know I dated that girl for years and probably slept with her 1000 times, but it's like I have no real memory of it.

 

Trusted then busted...I can totally relate...and I believe her.

 

I think I am the kind of person that buries bad things...I kind of make them go away. John is a person that analyzes..so we process tragedy differently.

 

I can relate to both of these as well. My wife is a burier and I am an analyzer. I often wonder how much of that is our inherent differences and how much of it is because of the roles we have in the affair - me being the BH and wanting to "understand" and her being the WS and wishing to not face what happened. She coped by burying it so deeply that indeed the affair was something that "happened to her". Moving past this hurdle of her seeing the affair as something imposed upon her and out of her control rather than taking responsibility for her choices was challenging.

 

 

She also buried things quickly after the affair - at a point where the AP was viewed in a positive light. I really believe that after she was done pining for her AP she did not think of him through the years (she claims) but her view of him as a person remained frozen in this place. Thus, when we unburied things after nearly two decades, she carried a view of her AP as a good fellow who only wanted the best for her (aack). She really wanted to cling to that notion for quite some time.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Is there some part of you/him that understands, bc it was both of you that cheated?

 

Johns cheating did not help in any way...not him..not me.

It only caused us more hurt...and since his was not as "bad" as mine...and I blame myself for his as well as my own , I don't think it contributed to anything.

 

His affair did not help me to understand remorse.... You have to remember my affair was in October 1983... His was in the summer of 1985. I came to understand true remorse in October 2013. Now ....I understand how it feels to be betrayed...I understand hurt....so his affair contributed to that...But it did not teach me about remorse.

 

Honestly...I know I keep talking about the book how to help your spouse heal...but this 95 page book resonated in my heart...I know it may not be the right book for others but for me...It was like smacking me upside my head ...and it dropped me to my knees. Linda macdonald gave us the tool to jump that final hurdle....I am forever grateful.

[merrmeade]

I can relate to both of these as well. My wife is a burier and I am an analyzer. I often wonder how much of that is our inherent differences and how much of it is because of the roles we have in the affair - me being the BH and wanting to "understand" and her being the WS and wishing to not face what happened. She coped by burying it so deeply that indeed the affair was something that "happened to her". Moving past this hurdle of her seeing the affair as something imposed upon her and out of her control rather than taking responsibility for her choices was challenging.

 

 

She also buried things quickly after the affair - at a point where the AP was viewed in a positive light. I really believe that after she was done pining for her AP she did not think of him through the years (she claims) but her view of him as a person remained frozen in this place. Thus, when we unburied things after nearly two decades, she carried a view of her AP as a good fellow who only wanted the best for her (aack). She really wanted to cling to that notion for quite some time.

Well, that's our situation as well, so maybe an instance of three couples with the WSs and BSs with the same profiles means there's a pattern — i.e., WSs bury; BSs analyze.

 

The hard part for me — and I wonder if others experience this — is remembering what I felt and thought was going on at that time, what I was dealing with and how I understood what he was doing at the time. At times of stress and need, milestones in anyone's life, I was not supported and was too gullible to question the explanations I was given. Years later, after being caught in an EA/semi-PA, he eked out filtered, partial disclosures over months of TT that he'd also cheated on me during those earlier times. This means, I was gaslighted twice.

 

So I wonder if it ever strike others this way?

[JohnAdams]

Infidelity is often the most traumatic life event many of us will ever face. I agree with many of the experts who say that many who suffer from infidelity have the symptoms of PTSD. Infidelity is certainly life changing.

 

My wife and I met at the right place, at the right time with the right mindset and fell in love. We met at church in our late teens and both of us experienced our first love. Certainly a love to last a lifetime. A meeting sanctioned by God. All the planets seemed to align. Marrying young, we grew up together.

 

Then my wife was at the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong mindset and had the wrong opportunity. She then made the wrong choice.

 

Less than two years later, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong mindset and created the wrong opportunity. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

We both made bad choices. Choices that alter your life. The primary thing we had going for us was our strong foundational love. You would think that this would not happen to a couple that had such a solid foundation. But, even though our foundation suffered major cracks, we were able to recover. We knew what we one time had and made the choice to reconcile for us and for our family. It was hard work, but marriage is hard work. Having to deal with infidelity on top of everything else just made it more challenging.

 

To us, reconciliation was worth it. We now both appreciate each other more. We appreciate that we were able to save our family. We seldom take each other for granted anymore. We enjoy being with each other. We never let the other one forget how much we love them.

 

Yes, I would trade almost anything to have the innocence back. Innocence is not over rated regardless of what you may read. Her naive innocence was one of the traits I fell in love with. But, you learn to play the hand you have been dealt. You realize what you almost lost. We are at a wonderful point in our marriage and life. We both look forward to many more years together.

[badkarma2013]

Posted by JohnAdams...Yes, I would trade almost anything to have the innocence back. Innocence is not over rated regardless of what you may read. Her naive innocence was one of the traits I fell in love with. But, you learn to play the hand you have been dealt. You realize what you almost lost. We are at a wonderful point in our marriage and life. We both look forward to many more years together..

 

Mr. Adams ....Till this post i have never realized what huge Impact the "Loss of Innocence" had on me....As I have stated my WW was almost prudish...not a Prude...but had strict boundaries with to Sex......But she was funny and I often smiled at her naivety ....with re to the world in general.....

 

The circumstances surrounding my WWs Affair...Burned all of that away in my mind in one second...she had turned into what the pictures of her and the Om were....At that second All of my innocence with re to her was gone forever...and nothing or anyone could ever return it to me...

 

That hurt as much as the sex.....but when there is nothing left but ash...There is no going back ever....

 

That I have realized... and that is the hand I was dealt.....Badkarma

[Selfish]

While I was inexperienced I was neither naive or innocent. Nor did my husbans ever view me as such. No madonna/whore conplex here. I know that also helped with our R.

 

I think innocence is good.

 

I think naivety can be dangerous.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think i was both innocent and naive before my affair....I married at age 17 the only boy i had ever dated. I blindly trusted most everyone.

 

NOT ANYMORE

[JohnAdams]

I think naivety can be dangerous.

 

I agree........

[katielee]

I think i was both innocent and naive before my affair....I married at age 17 the only boy i had ever dated. I blindly trusted most everyone.

 

NOT ANYMORE

 

and when one of the people who you cant' trust turns out to be yourself, it's shakes up your entire life.

[Mrs. John Adams]

very true katielee...no one is more disappointed in me...than me. I know you feel the same and so does selfish.

 

three little peas in a pod we are....

[Lion Heart]

I suppose my basic question for those who stay, who regret staying, and who make their wives well aware that they regret it....does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap? Is that part of the secondary gain? This is something I honestly would like to know. Are their men out there (I say men because this seems to be an overwhelmingly male issue) who choose to stay mired so that their wives cannot forget how awful they are/were? Is they part of the desired outcome?

 

My WH and I attended our 1st MC exactly 1 month to the day after D Day. WH had booked it the day after D Day but there was /is a long waiting list to see this C.

 

I'd virtually been drunk the whole month. The deep grey mire was swarming around me in clouds. I wanted CLARITY. That's all I asked for from IC & MC and God. That's the context.

 

In response to "does it make the BS feel better that the WS was feeling like crap"? I'll be honest, NOTHING 1 month out made me feel better except alcohol and that was plain escapism.

The MC asked again what I wanted right now. I said clarity! Truth! She said "I think you want to punish WS by letting him stay." She could've been right but I don't think so at all.

 

In fact IF that was going to be a part of my future relationship AT ALL with my WH (D, R or anything in between) then I'd be working on that wholeheartedly as a loving act to myself. I wouldn't want to live like that. Only tonight WH & myself spoke with a BW in "R" for 5 years. We had no idea. She spoke alot about her ordeal that she's STILL tearful about even tonight! She acknowledged that I was further along than her. ThankYOU loveshack. (Yeah she's looking at ls now!).

 

BUT her parting words were "I tell you now, an awful lot of renovations at our house has been done by WH in the past 5 years!". Yeah punishing after 5 years.

 

I get that but I see it as very much unresolved issues for her. I'm certain she would have preferred a faithful husband over renos but since she didn't have a faithful husband, she's got the work instead. Poor, sad substitution

 

Best wishes to all here and a huge heartfelt thankyou to everyone for your support and kind words.

Lion Heart.

[badkarma2013]

Originally Posted by autumnnight View Post

I suppose my basic question for those who stay, who regret staying, and who make their wives well aware that they regret it....does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap? Is that part of the secondary gain? This is something I honestly would like to know. Are their men out there (I say men because this seems to be an overwhelmingly male issue) who choose to stay mired so that their wives cannot forget how awful they are/were? Is they part of the desired outcome?

 

 

 

This did not happen in my case..I filed for D when I had more info. than I ever wanted....

 

However as I have stated ...Many Bhs enter into R Knowing da*n good and well they will NEVER get over their WWs A...They will never let it go for true R and THEY KNOW IT when they start...They are mad ,angry and devastated and they want to heap this pain and devastation onto their WWs head so they will feel the same pain they feel....so YES .....

 

If you asked them they may not answer with that conviction...but never the less IMHO they want to inflict pain and anger onto their WWS for what has happened to them....and they want them to feel the same...

 

This is a horrible way of thinking and no way to treat anyone....But so was their WWs affair...

 

 

Badkarma

[katielee]

if the BH can't get over it and want to inflict pain, why betray themselves? Why not simply divorce?