When people pursue the obviously wrong choice.

[Phoe]

I suppose it's just something I'll never understand, and I just have to accept that.

 

I keep seeing folks talking about a "nice paint job" and suggesting that they're hot, but they just don't quite fall under that category.

 

And Deb, I knew someone was gonna say I am mean, but how else am I supposed to put it? Am I suppose to lie and say they are nice looking and really sweet ladies? I knew that the first thing people would ask about is their looks, so I offered up the honest opinion. The hygiene and self care is generally poor. There's no way around it. Someone who chain smokes, smells like stale whiskey from the night before, and hasn't showered and has a faint hungover stench about them - how am I supposed to just lie and smile and say that's attractive?

 

And yes, I know these women well enough. I've worked with them for years, and spent a LOT of time around them. Most of them have been coddled all their lives and have no real sense of being a responsible adult.

 

As far as the men going for "what's easy" and "not having LTR in mind", that's not true either. They often want to legitimately date these women. They "fall in love" and continue to trip over themselves and let these women treat them terribly and screw other coworkers who are also "madly in love".

 

I'll watch one of my male coworkers date one of these women, get chewed up and spit out, then a month later watch another male coworker who JUST WITNESSED WHAT HAPPENED, go ahead and pursue her and proceed to also get chewed up and spit out.

 

They willingly walk into a hyena's den and get the crap kicked out of them. Only a handful of men have stayed away (the ones who are married), and we all just watch in shock and horror, and shake our heads at it. We don't get it.

[Phoe]

I also think, for many men, a pretty face and a nice body with a sad story is VERY powerful. We want to rescue.

 

Let's say I am a stable guy with a good income.. I go on two dates..

 

A. Pretty girl with nice job, life together, stable income

 

B. Pretty girl, life in disarray, poor decisions, bad credit etc.

 

Chances are woman B is going to be all over me. Loving, sexual, caring, etc. She might even just truly respect me for being a responsible man, and I also have something she needs.

 

Woman A does not NEED me. So we might have a few lukewarm dates while she is dating others until it just ends one way or another.

 

if woman A acted like woman B I would take her in a heartbeat. But that just does not seem to be how it works.

 

I said multiple times though, these are not attractive ladies.

 

Weight issues, hygiene issues, take very poor care of themselves. Drinking, partying, binging on junk food.

 

So really it's

 

Woman A: Decent looks, stays in shape, life in order, nice person.

Woman B: Bad hygiene, not in shape, life in disarray, mean person.

[JuneJulySeptember]

I suppose it's just something I'll never understand, and I just have to accept that.

 

I keep seeing folks talking about a "nice paint job" and suggesting that they're hot, but they just don't quite fall under that category.

 

And Deb, I knew someone was gonna say I am mean, but how else am I supposed to put it? Am I suppose to lie and say they are nice looking and really sweet ladies? I knew that the first thing people would ask about is their looks, so I offered up the honest opinion. The hygiene and self care is generally poor. There's no way around it. Someone who chain smokes, smells like stale whiskey from the night before, and hasn't showered and has a faint hungover stench about them - how am I supposed to just lie and smile and say that's attractive?

 

And yes, I know these women well enough. I've worked with them for years, and spent a LOT of time around them. Most of them have been coddled all their lives and have no real sense of being a responsible adult.

 

As far as the men going for "what's easy" and "not having LTR in mind", that's not true either. They often want to legitimately date these women. They "fall in love" and continue to trip over themselves and let these women treat them terribly and screw other coworkers who are also "madly in love".

 

I'll watch one of my male coworkers date one of these women, get chewed up and spit out, then a month later watch another male coworker who JUST WITNESSED WHAT HAPPENED, go ahead and pursue her and proceed to also get chewed up and spit out.

 

They willingly walk into a hyena's den and get the crap kicked out of them. Only a handful of men have stayed away (the ones who are married), and we all just watch in shock and horror, and shake our heads at it. We don't get it.

 

Something somewhat similar happened to me.

 

I worked with a woman at a shorter job and she wasn't the prettiest woman in the office but many of the guys in the office either went for her or were interested. I did too and I got rejected.

 

The prettier women were married.

 

How I would describe it is that she led guys on, either intentionally or unintentionally and was a fun woman. And for a lot of guys, if they think a halfway decent woman who is kind of fun likes them, they will be hooked bad. I wasn't into her at first, but she hooked me and a bunch of other guys too.

 

Women who lead guys on like this can literally have a dozen guys on their jock at any one time.

 

I wouldn't say that the woman I worked was nasty or a bad person either, but women leading on men tend to cloud emotions.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

And men pursue them. And do favors for them. And fall in love with them. I've watched 2 men in my workplace be in love with the same girl while she bounced back and forth between them, while also propositioning another coworker who says he considered it, but ended up saying no.

 

There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to attraction and I've come to realize that trying to sit down and analyze other people's personal preferences is a futile endeavour. Unless I plan to emulate the traits of those who I see repeatedly being "chosen" over me, it serves little purpose.

 

It boggles me that these men compete with each other for these women, and that these men will gladly continue to pursue these women despite knowing full well how they are.

 

A girl like me gets ignored though. My coworkers pursue these bad choices and just be friends with me.

 

It's almost impossible to be objective when it comes to something like that anyway because often we only see the negatives in someone else. At the end of the day, all it does is become an exercise and stroking our own egos and propping ourselves up because in our minds, OF COURSE we're "the better choice".

 

The real question is, do you even want to get the attentions of men who you know to pursue women you perceive to be low quality? It wouldn't make me feel that great to suddenly become the object of desire of men who yesterday or last week were going after...a certain type of woman.

 

Sure, I'm not the greatest. I'm not the prettiest or most attractive or the kindest or smartest person, but I'm not a walking train wreck. I'm a decent person and am easy to get along with and am pleasant to date. Yet no one who knows me wants to try dating me.

 

You seem to put a lot of stalk into your own stability however not everyone values "not being a walking trainwreck" in the same way, nor do they feel that's enough. As with guys who wonder why women don't choose them because they're "not a jerk", that one good attribute may not be enough for some. Perhaps you not being the whateverest is a dealbreaker for some?

 

I used to spend a lot of time wondering why I was getting passed over for others when I personally felt I had a lot going for me. I was young, lived alone, had my own money, no kids and little baggage, yet I found myself being overlooked in favor of girls who were older, perhaps had kids, in debt, turbulent pasts, etc. But what I failed to acknowledge was that what I didn't have was the issue. And sometimes, no matter how superficial, trivial or absurd, that was what mattered more to some people.

[Phoe]

This seems weird. No pretty women fly under the radar at work sites I work at. The ones I can think of were the women did get left alone, the women were quite serious & aloof in nature or had an attitude from getting cheated on too many times/too many of the wrong guys. They didn't fly under the radar though, most guys would have tried to chat them up at some stage and picked this up and left them alone.

 

Well, it may not happen at your work sites, but it happens at mine.

 

This girl never got pursued. She also had no negative history/baggage from wrong guys, did not have an attitude, like I mentioned in the first comment, she was very sweet and funny. Laid back girl. Always looked her best.

 

I am 200% straight, but I had a bit of a girl crush on her. She was just so awesome. Gorgeous, in shape, clean and smelling nice, looking nice, and a wonderful personality. An all around really great person.

 

In all the years there I never saw a guy pursue her, and all I ever heard a man say about her is "Shelby is a nice girl". That's it. And I hear ALOT of the guy talk (I work in a male dominated department). I hear all the stuff they say about the ladies in the workplace, and she never came up.

 

I always watched her interactions with the men. Always really pleasant and sweet and genuine.

[carhill]

I said multiple times though, these are not attractive ladies.

 

Weight issues, hygiene issues, take very poor care of themselves. Drinking, partying, binging on junk food.

 

So really it's

 

Woman A: Decent looks, stays in shape, life in order, nice person.

Woman B: Bad hygiene, not in shape, life in disarray, mean person.

I think the difficulty here is analyzing this like a spreadsheet when it's more like taking a hit off the bong. When men are thinking with their penis, logic departs; married men ogle teenage girls, married women are on the menu, fugly alcoholics are hot, etc, etc. It's simply not a logical process. When I found myself having similar thoughts and trying to put reason to it, it simply was a fruitless pursuit. People just do what they do when it comes to sex and romance.

 

When did the most married and single women hit on me in my entire life? When my marriage was in the shytter and I was an ostensibly broken man from unrelated issues. That's just how it goes. Does it make sense. Nope!

[clevelander321]

There's a woman who worked at my work for several years but is no longer there.

 

She was stunning. Beautiful face, perfect teeth, nice hair, nice body, very sweet and funny personality.

 

Not once did I ever see a man pursue her or hear a man at work talking about her. She totally flew under the radar at work.

 

This is the way I look at it now..

 

As an example, my ex wife was always "perfect". Perfect hair, nails, clothes, fashion, etc. Now this did not happen by accident.. It takes time/money/effort.

 

What it NOW says to me is that this type of woman is very into herself. She spends ALOT of time thinking of how she can look good and better. Make up tricks.. Different hair styles etc. She is into herself.

 

So, I would rather have the girl with messy hair and lousy clothes that is fun and perhaps has a level of empathy of others..

 

Similar to a very pretty dog or horse. You can admire the beauty, but it doesn't turn you on.

[Phoe]

There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to attraction and I've come to realize that trying to sit down and analyze other people's personal preferences is a futile endeavour. Unless I plan to emulate the traits of those who I see repeatedly being "chosen" over me, it serves little purpose.

 

 

 

It's almost impossible to be objective when it comes to something like that anyway because often we only see the negatives in someone else. At the end of the day, all it does is become an exercise and stroking our own egos and propping ourselves up because in our minds, OF COURSE we're "the better choice".

 

The real question is, do you even want to get the attentions of men who you know to pursue women you perceive to be low quality? It wouldn't make me feel that great to suddenly become the object of desire of men who yesterday or last week were going after...a certain type of woman.

 

 

 

You seem to put a lot of stalk into your own stability however not everyone values "not being a walking trainwreck" in the same way, nor do they feel that's enough. As with guys who wonder why women don't choose them because they're "not a jerk", that one good attribute may not be enough for some. Perhaps you not being the whateverest is a dealbreaker for some?

 

I used to spend a lot of time wondering why I was getting passed over for others when I personally felt I had a lot going for me. I was young, lived alone, had my own money, no kids and little baggage, yet I found myself being overlooked in favor of girls who were older, perhaps had kids, in debt, turbulent pasts, etc. But what I failed to acknowledge was that what I didn't have was the issue. And sometimes, no matter how superficial, trivial or absurd, that was what mattered more to some people.

 

 

Sure, it all makes sense.

 

I suppose I hope that by understanding what it is that draws men to these women, I can help figure out what it is that I'm lacking.

 

Something about me appears to be almost universally undesirable, or I am lacking in something that is universally required.

 

I figure trying to understand moreso why others want what they want, I can help myself.

[Phoe]

This is the way I look at it now..

 

As an example, my ex wife was always "perfect". Perfect hair, nails, clothes, fashion, etc. Now this did not happen by accident.. It takes time/money/effort.

 

What it NOW says to me is that this type of woman is very into herself. She spends ALOT of time thinking of how she can look good and better. Make up tricks.. Different hair styles etc. She is into herself.

 

So, I would rather have the girl with messy hair and lousy clothes that is fun and perhaps has a level of empathy of others..

 

Similar to a very pretty dog or horse. You can admire the beauty, but it doesn't turn you on.

 

She was not high maintenance. Nor am I.

 

She wore almost no makeup. Wore her hair down and simple. Wore classic and simple clothes. No nails, just groomed.

 

She was never overdone. She was just naturally pretty. Without putting much thought and effort into it.

 

Suggesting that she was "very into herself" is absolutely silly and completely untrue. She's kinder than most people I know. Never heard a mean word ever come from her mouth. Always smiling.

[Phoe]

It's so odd...

 

Why is it that if a girl looks nice, it's assumed that she's high maintenance, into herself, and lacks empathy for others?

 

Why is it said that people should do their best to groom themselves, have nice hygiene, and keep themselves looking decent and put together, just for people to throw that all aside and suggest that a woman who does keep herself put together and looks nice is just likely a lousy person anyway.

 

Why is it assumed then that the girl with messy hair and lousy clothes is automatically the nicer person? Why is it so impossible that the person who looks messy and has bad hygiene and doesn't take care of themselves is also not a very nice person either?

 

The things I read here sometimes make no sense.

[clevelander321]

It's so odd...

 

Why is it that if a girl looks nice, it's assumed that she's high maintenance, into herself, and lacks empathy for others?

 

Why is it said that people should do their best to groom themselves, have nice hygiene, and keep themselves looking decent and put together, just for people to throw that all aside and suggest that a woman who does keep herself put together and looks nice is just likely a lousy person anyway.

 

Why is it assumed then that the girl with messy hair and lousy clothes is automatically the nicer person? Why is it so impossible that the person who looks messy and has bad hygiene and doesn't take care of themselves is also not a very nice person either?

 

The things I read here sometimes make no sense.

 

A. You asked why guys date fun girls that have sex.. Isn't that obvious? Guys don't care if you hair looks perfect or if you have perfect nails. Nobody cares.perhaps other women notice more than guys do.. I could never once tell you what color my ex wifes nails were if she asked me when i wasn't around her.

 

 

B. The girl with messy hair and lousy clothes spends her time and energy doing what? having fun? having sex? Drinking?

 

I dated the girls who always looked nice and it is such a process for them to do so. Need beauty sleep.. Don't drink as it is bad for the skin.. Have to wake up early to do hair etc etc

 

.

[Gloria25]

There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to attraction and I've come to realize that trying to sit down and analyze other people's personal preferences is a futile endeavour. Unless I plan to emulate the traits of those who I see repeatedly being "chosen" over me, it serves little purpose.

 

 

 

It's almost impossible to be objective when it comes to something like that anyway because often we only see the negatives in someone else. At the end of the day, all it does is become an exercise and stroking our own egos and propping ourselves up because in our minds, OF COURSE we're "the better choice".

 

The real question is, do you even want to get the attentions of men who you know to pursue women you perceive to be low quality? It wouldn't make me feel that great to suddenly become the object of desire of men who yesterday or last week were going after...a certain type of woman.

 

 

 

You seem to put a lot of stalk into your own stability however not everyone values "not being a walking trainwreck" in the same way, nor do they feel that's enough. As with guys who wonder why women don't choose them because they're "not a jerk", that one good attribute may not be enough for some. Perhaps you not being the whateverest is a dealbreaker for some?

 

I used to spend a lot of time wondering why I was getting passed over for others when I personally felt I had a lot going for me. I was young, lived alone, had my own money, no kids and little baggage, yet I found myself being overlooked in favor of girls who were older, perhaps had kids, in debt, turbulent pasts, etc. But what I failed to acknowledge was that what I didn't have was the issue. And sometimes, no matter how superficial, trivial or absurd, that was what mattered more to some people.

 

Agreed...but I think that's why Phoe, me, and other women do this "pondering"...not cuz we wanna put down other women's looks and stuff, we sit here saying "what am 'I' doing wrong if these women - with nothing to offer - have guys going ga-ga over them.

 

But, like you also said, why would I want a guy who felt that some trashy back-ho was as good as it was gonna get for him? I mean, we've all dated duds - but to not evolve and do better for yourself isn't someone I'm interested in....

 

Like this week I was checking out X couple and I was like "so what, dude has terrible face skin, is a kid, and probably will wake up and realize what he wasted his time with"...so, nah, even though it sucks that I apparently don't have what these guys are looking for, I wouldn't wanna date them anyways. So, I don't know why it bothers me so.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I wouldn't presume to know what was a good choice or a bad choice for anybody besides my sister, very closest friends and myself def not my co-workers!

[Phoe]

A. You asked why guys date fun girls that have sex.. Isn't that obvious? Guys don't care if you hair looks perfect or if you have perfect nails.

 

Well, no, that's not quite what I asked. But that's okay.

[Phoe]

I wouldn't presume to know what was a good choice or a bad choice for anybody besides my sister, very closest friends and myself def not my co-workers!

 

My coworkers ARE my closest friends. I've known them for many years and spend a lot of time with them.

 

I care about them and feel badly watching them pursue women that are likely to hurt them.

 

When you watch the same women over and over do the same thing over and over to men you know, it's hard to just ignore it.

[Rejected Rosebud]

When you watch the same women over and over do the same thing over and over to men you know, it's hard to just ignore it.

I have a feeling that other people involved have a much different perspective on the women and what's going on with them and men they date than you do though … I don't think you should worry about it, those girls might not be all bad, they might be awesome in ways you don't know about.

[Phoe]

Agreed...but I think that's why Phoe, me, and other women do this "pondering"...not cuz we wanna put down other women's looks and stuff, we sit here saying "what am 'I' doing wrong if these women - with nothing to offer - have guys going ga-ga over them.

 

Indeed!

 

I'm not actively just searching around for reasons to put others down. It's not pleasant and I don't feel good talking about these other women, and I said several times that I don't feel right talking negatively about them, but it is what it is, and I'm trying to learn something from the whole thing.

[Phoe]

I have a feeling that other people involved have a much different perspective on the women and what's going on with them and men they date than you do though … I don't think you should worry about it, those girls might not be all bad, they might be awesome in ways you don't know about.

 

I've said in other posts, I'm not the only person who feels this way. There are a handful of others (such as the married men I know), who watch it with just as much confusion.

 

I'm also confused how people are CONVINCED that these people they've never met, must be awesome. I've spent 40-50 hours a week with them for several years, and interacted with them outside of work as well.

 

One of them I've known since high school, and she had a reputation then as well. I remember her coming after my boyfriend very strongly. I remember us driving down the road and she happened to be in the car next to us, and she starts hanging out the window shouting and waving and blowing kisses at him and much too my horror, he rolled down the window and started shouting and waving back at her, all while I'm trying to drive. He cheated on me with 2 girls that I know of, and for all I know he did with her too.

 

I remember my first day at work she walks up to me with this air of disdain and says "aren't you that chick that dated zach back in high school?" I say yes and she laughs. "Too bad you guys didn't work out, huh." and kinda smirks and walks away

 

But she's surely awesome. Somehow.

[clevelander321]

Indeed!

 

I'm not actively just searching around for reasons to put others down. It's not pleasant and I don't feel good talking about these other women, and I said several times that I don't feel right talking negatively about them, but it is what it is, and I'm trying to learn something from the whole thing.

 

You are judging based on outward appearances.. You have no idea.

 

As I said, my ex wife was not only always well put together, but she was charismatic.. Always well spoken.. Great outward appearance! In our relationship she was absolutely narcisstic..

 

I recently had a date with one of these "crazy girls".. Not the best clothes.. Not the best style... And a little wild...

 

When I told her what happened with my last relationship she cried, hugged me, wouldn't let go, and said "i am so sorry that happened to you"

 

So, if you saw the 2 women, you would probably judge the latter as "trouble", or "not hygenic", or "not as good as the ex wife".. but once again you have no idea.

[Phoe]

You are judging based on outward appearances.. You have no idea.

 

As I said, my ex wife was not only always well put together, but she was charismatic.. Always well spoken.. Great outward appearance! In our relationship she was absolutely narcisstic..

 

I recently had a date with one of these "crazy girls".. Not the best clothes.. Not the best style... And a little wild...

 

When I told her what happened with my last relationship she cried, hugged me, wouldn't let go, and said "i am so sorry that happened to you"

 

So, if you saw the 2 women, you would probably judge the latter as "trouble", or "not hygenic", or "not as good as the ex wife".. but once again you have no idea.

 

I am actually judging these women on their character, how they act towards others.

 

They are not nice people. They are mean and bitchy, start drama, and bully others in the workplace.

 

I brought up the looks because, like I mentioned a few times before, I knew that the first thing people would ask, is whether they are hot are not.

 

The classic "she's bitchy and awful to be around but she's hot and great to look at"

 

I don't initially judge others by looks. I judge them on their character, their behavior, how they treat others.

 

I know plenty of people who aren't the best looking, but are wonderful people, and I like those folks alot.

 

But the women I'm referring to are mean. I've seen them make 2 of the nice older ladies at work cry.

[Phoe]

 

So, if you saw the 2 women, you would probably judge the latter as "trouble", or "not hygenic", or "not as good as the ex wife".. but once again you have no idea.

 

I wouldn't judge either of them until I'd spent time around them and seen how they act towards others.

 

That's great that the woman you dated was very empathetic towards you.

 

The women I'm referring to are not like that. I am not sure why you are SO hung up on the idea of the pretty lady I know being self absorbed, and that the others must surely be empathetic and kind. Everything I've said is the exact opposite of that.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Sure, it all makes sense.

 

I suppose I hope that by understanding what it is that draws men to these women, I can help figure out what it is that I'm lacking.

 

Something about me appears to be almost universally undesirable, or I am lacking in something that is universally required.

 

I figure trying to understand moreso why others want what they want, I can help myself.

 

Sometimes those types of women are more outgoing, flirtatious, forward, etc which some guys find alluring. I know there are guys who wanted nothing to do with me until I started exhibiting some of my, well, frankly less than sweet qualities (biting sarcasm, moodiness, etc). I mean just flat out ignoring me until they started thinking I was "edgy" or whatever. "Bad girls" can in fact be just as appealing to men as their male counterparts are to women.

 

Then there are the guys who, unfortunately have a sort of herd mentality when it comes to women and won't even bother with her unless and until they see others competing for her attention. Their idea of "quality" or "value" depends not so much on what she personally has or is offering, but what others perceive her to possess. I've sat alone at a bar enjoying a beer without anyone saying a word to me until some guy decides to casually chat me up. Then suddenly, two or three more guys want to do the same .

[clia]

I am actually judging these women on their character, how they act towards others.

 

They are not nice people. They are mean and bitchy, start drama, and bully others in the workplace.

 

I brought up the looks because, like I mentioned a few times before, I knew that the first thing people would ask, is whether they are hot are not.

 

The classic "she's bitchy and awful to be around but she's hot and great to look at"

 

I don't initially judge others by looks. I judge them on their character, their behavior, how they treat others.

 

I know plenty of people who aren't the best looking, but are wonderful people, and I like those folks alot.

 

But the women I'm referring to are mean. I've seen them make 2 of the nice older ladies at work cry.

 

Have the men who are pursuing seen this "mean girl" behavior first hand?

 

Have you considered asking your co-workers what they see in these women? That may give you some perspective. They must have something to offer.

[Phoe]

Have the men who are pursuing seen this "mean girl" behavior first hand?

 

Have you considered asking your co-workers what they see in these women? That may give you some perspective. They must have something to offer.

 

I know a good chunk of them have. And if not, then they've heard the stories. The gossip spreads like wildfire there. And the fights and spats and nasty arguments are something I regularly see. I'm a bit of a fly on the wall and always see and hear things that are really out there...

 

I wouldn't dare ask them what they see. That's just asking for trouble. I don't partake much in the wildfire gossip and drama, am moreso just an observer. By asking that I will be directly injecting myself into the drama and will potentially get backlash...

 

I remember one coworker quite bluntly saying that these girls must take it up the butt and give amazing BJ's. I wouldn't have gone THAT far, but who knows. I remember seeing a video posted of one of these girls giving one of those guys a lapdance. Why these things end up on facebook I will never know...

[Phoe]

Sometimes those types of women are more outgoing, flirtatious, forward, etc which some guys find alluring. I know there are guys who wanted nothing to do with me until I started exhibiting some of my, well, frankly less than sweet qualities (biting sarcasm, moodiness, etc). I mean just flat out ignoring me until they started thinking I was "edgy" or whatever. "Bad girls" can in fact be just as appealing to men as their male counterparts are to women.

 

Then there are the guys who, unfortunately have a sort of herd mentality when it comes to women and won't even bother with her unless and until they see others competing for her attention. Their idea of "quality" or "value" depends not so much on what she personally has or is offering, but what others perceive her to possess. I've sat alone at a bar enjoying a beer without anyone saying a word to me until some guy decides to casually chat me up. Then suddenly, two or three more guys want to do the same .

 

These both make a lot of sense.

 

The girls flirt without shame. And I can see the "wanting what that other guy wants" type of thing happening, creating a herd mentality.

 

It's just that they then seem to go blind to the fact that every man before him suffered a not so pleasant fate.

 

One girl has a running tab at the local bar, under one of the guys' names. He keeps the tab open for her and she can go and drink whatever, whenever, for free. And then she will come in to work hungover, and laugh at him behind his back, and make fun of him for being such a desperate loser and how cool she is cause she's got her very own bar tab.

 

It is just awful...