When people pursue the obviously wrong choice.

[Phoe]

I try not to go after other posters.

 

I might bitch and moan a lot but just about women in general.

 

When you question a person's character and on top of that, tell a person who is doing poorly with dating that their character is to blame for that lack of success, not only is that a fallacy (terrible people succeed in dating all the time), it's mean to do to someone because they will beat themselves up over it. Been there.

 

For all I know, my character might be keeping men away. I don't know. Whether that's the case or not, I may as well do my best to improve myself.

 

I have a tough skin so I won't necessarily beat myself up over what others say, I only beat myself up over my own opinions of myself. I WILL, however, over analyze what others say about me.

[CALOVELY]

Basically, anytime I see people who are succeeding at something that I fail at, I want to figure out what it is that they are doing, so I can help my own situation. Whether it be dating, school, a certain skill, whatever. When I'm not good at something, I'm gonna watch those who ARE good at it.

 

That is a wonderful attitude to have. You will go very far with this, not to mention many people find a willingness to learn new things to be a highly attractive trait.

[ascendotum]

It's so odd...

 

Why is it that if a girl looks nice, it's assumed that she's high maintenance, into herself, and lacks empathy for others?

 

The things I read here sometimes make no sense.

 

While I agree with you on your last sentence..Sometimes people scratch around for reasons to explain a certain situation 'sight unseen' like this one of yours with the fabulous co-worker that no one takes interest in. I don't get it, but you seem to live in the twinight zone when it comes to dating. lol You and this Shelby woman having a hard time while the trollops reel in the guys. I don't get it. You said your male co-workers hardly ever talked about her and one just said she was nice...you really should have solved your puzzlement by asking some of those guys, more about what they thought about her. There has to be a good reason that you don't see from your female perspective. Pretty & cool personality & sweet/fun nature women just don't fly under the radar..there is a reason..but IDK where you live seems weird. You can't maybe take a leaf out of these other 'wrong choice' women's books to boost your appeal with the local guys.

[CALOVELY]

While I agree with you on your last sentence..Sometimes people scratch around for reasons to explain a certain situation 'sight unseen' like this one of yours with the fabulous co-worker that no one takes interest in. I don't get it, but you seem to live in the twinight zone when it comes to dating. lol You and this Shelby woman having a hard time while the trollops reel in the guys. I don't get it. You said your male co-workers hardly ever talked about her and one just said she was nice...you really should have solved your puzzlement by asking some of those guys, more about what they thought about her. There has to be a good reason that you don't see from your female perspective. Pretty & cool personality & sweet/fun nature women just don't fly under the radar..there is a reason..but IDK where you live seems weird. You can't maybe take a leaf out of these other 'wrong choice' women's books to boost your appeal with the local guys.

 

For many people they are attracted to others based on how they make them feel. These "trollops" may very well be flirty and complimentary, fawning and ego boosting. That is very attractive to many, a person that makes them feel good about themselves that is.

 

[Anderlie]

Honey, I'm going through a bitter spat this week. I'm not like this all the time. If you'd understand the stress I'm under right now and the back/forth I've been going through with a recent crush, you'd understand why I'm not chirpy today.

 

Sorry Gloria I was addressing the OP, hence the follow up comment.

 

Anyway I know it seemed mean to bring up the OP's attitude but it's not productive to pretend how we present ourselves has no impact on how others perceive us. Yes scuzzy, horrible people get dates despite not deserving them but that's because they have the confidence to chase them and also in some cases aren't fussy. OP lacks confidence and has standards, it's important she develop one to implement the other.

[Noproblem]

I think it's time for you to stop looking at what others are doing and getting and start living your life and getting people your way..

 

You work place is not the world, it's just an office, the world is out there for you to grasp if and only if you stopped being coward and envious!

 

Envy is what you feeling and I get you are right, these women might not deserve this attention and you might deserve it more

 

but this is life

 

Life is not fair

 

you either be OK with this fact and try your luck else where

 

or keep on envying these women and their losers guys

Edited January 21, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[chumble]

I don't get how anyone could consider me unattainable. It's so illogical and backwards. I'm nothing special, I'm just an average, nice girl. Nothing crazy about that! Hah

 

I would! I would ignore you as unattainable in a heartbeat!

[Eternal Sunshine]

I think a lot of it is to do with personality.

 

What I found is that these women have some common traits:

 

1. Almost creepy openess, as in they are ready to share intimate details of their lives/past immedietly, which to me is really inappropriate but I guess men feel it creates a sense of connection.

 

2. Pursue without flinching at rejections. Rather than withdraw when they receive a hurtful comment for example, they just laugh it off and keep going (where I for example withdraw and shut-down completely).

 

3. Flirt, dress and be sexually suggestive. The way they talk to and touch men is very different then how I do it. I am only really comfortable to flirt after I know someone is interested in me. These women assume that everyone is interested in them and behave accordingly.

 

4. Enjoy creating tension via love triangles. They usually go for many guys at once and often in front of each other so it arouses a sense of competition and drama.

 

I think the more I have my life together, the more boring I am to men. I actually got a lot more attention when I was less stable.

[Emilia]

I think that instability is attractive to some and you also only get certain types of people that pursue dating others at work so openly.

 

I'd also add though that a certain... I don't know, maybe 'zest for life' is very attractive in both sexes. The way that presents itself varies and what people value varies too. I'd say though that men rarely find modest good girls sexually alluring.

[Diezel]

Ever since I was in say... middle school? I've always noticed that people seem to be attracted to and will pursue, absolutely 100% obviously WRONG people.

 

You lost me at the "100%". Absolutes just aren't the rule unless you are dealing with hunger, taxes, and death.

 

If this is commonplace for you, then that is another thing, but I am sure if you observe even closer, you will see that there is a certain percentage of people who do pursue the right person. Using these forums as a sample size is skewed. Most people who come here are posting about their problems and about the person who is playing "hard to get", etc, etc, etc...

 

But I assure you, there are people who do eventually find someone compatible enough or someone that isn't the wrong person for them.

 

 

And to the person who said that grooming wasn't important, um, speak for yourself. Hygiene and a woman who has herself put together are very important for me. If I were to ever live with one, the last thing I'd want is a slob who couldn't care less about her body and her own appearance, even if at least minimally.

[Phoe]

You lost me at the "100%". Absolutes just aren't the rule unless you are dealing with hunger, taxes, and death.

 

If this is commonplace for you, then that is another thing, but I am sure if you observe even closer, you will see that there is a certain percentage of people who do pursue the right person. Using these forums as a sample size is skewed. Most people who come here are posting about their problems and about the person who is playing "hard to get", etc, etc, etc...

 

But I assure you, there are people who do eventually find someone compatible enough or someone that isn't the wrong person for them.

 

 

And to the person who said that grooming wasn't important, um, speak for yourself. Hygiene and a woman who has herself put together are very important for me. If I were to ever live with one, the last thing I'd want is a slob who couldn't care less about her body and her own appearance, even if at least minimally.

 

What I meant by 100%, is that I am seeing men choose women that are 100% not right for them. Fully just not the right girl for them.

 

I'm not saying that 100% of people do this, or that, I'm not talking in extremes like that.

 

I'm just saying that Jane is 100% not the right girl for Joe.

[Phoe]

While I agree with you on your last sentence..Sometimes people scratch around for reasons to explain a certain situation 'sight unseen' like this one of yours with the fabulous co-worker that no one takes interest in. I don't get it, but you seem to live in the twinight zone when it comes to dating. lol You and this Shelby woman having a hard time while the trollops reel in the guys. I don't get it. You said your male co-workers hardly ever talked about her and one just said she was nice...you really should have solved your puzzlement by asking some of those guys, more about what they thought about her. There has to be a good reason that you don't see from your female perspective. Pretty & cool personality & sweet/fun nature women just don't fly under the radar..there is a reason..but IDK where you live seems weird. You can't maybe take a leaf out of these other 'wrong choice' women's books to boost your appeal with the local guys.

 

I don't know that Shelby had a "hard time", so to speak. From what I can tell, she didn't. She dated outside of work every now and then. I think I remember 2 men that she dated for a long while.

 

She wasn't having a hard time, I was always just amazed at how the men at work just didn't show interest in her.

 

But there's no way I would just ask the men what they thought of her. That's not really an appropriate question and is a good way to open a can of worms and start trouble. Not my thing.

[Phoe]

Sorry Gloria I was addressing the OP, hence the follow up comment.

 

Anyway I know it seemed mean to bring up the OP's attitude but it's not productive to pretend how we present ourselves has no impact on how others perceive us. Yes scuzzy, horrible people get dates despite not deserving them but that's because they have the confidence to chase them and also in some cases aren't fussy. OP lacks confidence and has standards, it's important she develop one to implement the other.

 

I don't really have standards, don't know where you got that.

 

My standards are pretty basic. Be a clean and nice person, that's all I expect.

[Anela]

What I meant by 100%, is that I am seeing men choose women that are 100% not right for them. Fully just not the right girl for them.

 

I'm not saying that 100% of people do this, or that, I'm not talking in extremes like that.

 

I'm just saying that Jane is 100% not the right girl for Joe.

 

They either don't care, or they don't see it, because they do see something in the other person, that they find attractive.

 

Are you going on what they've said they want in a person? Or are these your thoughts from your own observations?

[Phoe]

They either don't care, or they don't see it, because they do see something in the other person, that they find attractive.

 

Are you going on what they've said they want in a person? Or are these your thoughts from your own observations?

 

Put it like this...

 

Joe dates Jane. Jane cheats on Joe and treats him like dirt and hurts him.

Bob saw what happened to Joe but then...

Bob dates Jane. Jane cheats on Bob and treats him like dirt and hurts him.

Bill saw what happened to Joe and Bob but then...

Bill dates Jane. Jane cheats on Bill and treats him like dirt and hurts him.

Joe saw what happened to himself, and Bob, and Bill, but...

Joe dates Jane AGAIN...

and then perhaps Bob dates Jane AGAIN...

and then Joe dates Jane AGAIN...

 

they all keep just getting kicked around by Jane.

 

Sure, it's just my observation, but I think it's a pretty spot on observation to say that Jane is NOT RIGHT for them...

[Woggle]

There is a false but widespread perception that unstable women with issues are the best in bed. I can tell you from experience that isn't true but it is. Also some men feel they can be themselves with these women instead of a prim and proper type who tried to change them.

 

Another thing is that some men wrongly believe that all women deep down are untrustworthy so go with the devil you know instead of a nice seeming woman who blind sides you.

[Phoe]

Another thing is that some men wrongly believe that all women deep down are untrustworthy so go with the devil you know instead of a nice seeming woman who blind sides you.

 

This makes me sad

 

Then the distrust will only grow deeper. That's a vicious cycle..

[TouchedByViolet]

I have seen what Phoe is commenting on and some people are just attracted to ***** ups

[elaine567]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I feel that most people like to go with the flow, they like to do things in a similar way to other people.

 

If there are two grocery stores in town and one is very busy and the other is very quiet, people get worried visiting the quiet one.

Why is it quiet? Why does no-one come in here? What is wrong with it?

They feel happier to have the support of others that all go to the same busy store, that others find it better somehow.

 

Also if I am going to buy a TV and one has 200 good reviews and the other I may think is similar or even better, has 2 good reviews.

Do I stick my neck out and get the unpopular one or do I think well 200 people have bought this TV and they all like it, so I will just get it too.

 

Many people like to think that the person they date is going to be popular with others, they do not want to go out on a limb for fear of making a mistake and making a fool of themselves.

 

I think bad boys and loose women are people who are prepared to put themselves out there, they are thus seen to be popular, many people then want to date them.

The are the "reviewed by 200" TV, they are the busy store, they are the proven article. People want to experience what others have had.

Many therefore see that "landing that catch" for themselves, is a big deal. It becomes a competition.

 

Little Miss Perfect or Mr Nice Guy in the corner are not the proven article.

They are the unknown quantity, they are the "reviewed by 2" TV, or the quiet store no-one goes to.

Some just do not want to take on the perceived risk of getting to know someone, who no-one else seems to want to date.

 

Instead they want the "honesty" and popularity of the bad guy/girl, "I know who and what he/she is, I know he/she is not perfect but who is?... and BTW all my friends are dead jealous of me..."

[autumnnight]

Well, it may not happen at your work sites, but it happens at mine.

 

This girl never got pursued. She also had no negative history/baggage from wrong guys, did not have an attitude, like I mentioned in the first comment, she was very sweet and funny. Laid back girl. Always looked her best.

 

I am 200% straight, but I had a bit of a girl crush on her. She was just so awesome. Gorgeous, in shape, clean and smelling nice, looking nice, and a wonderful personality. An all around really great person.

 

In all the years there I never saw a guy pursue her, and all I ever heard a man say about her is "Shelby is a nice girl". That's it. And I hear ALOT of the guy talk (I work in a male dominated department). I hear all the stuff they say about the ladies in the workplace, and she never came up.

 

I always watched her interactions with the men. Always really pleasant and sweet and genuine.

 

The bolded part jumped out at me, and I think that may sum it up.

 

There is a whole....group of men out there whose sole (or at least high on the list) consideration when deciding who to pursue is:

 

How easy will it be to get into her pants

 

When a man refers to a girl as nice, that usually means he is aware she won't be stripping for a couple of compliments and a hamburger because she values herself more than that. So he passes on the quality for an easier roll in the hay.

 

This used to bug me, but then I realized it's just a very easy way for ME to know which guys are probably not worth my time anyway

[Woggle]

This makes me sad

 

Then the distrust will only grow deeper. That's a vicious cycle..

 

Very true but some people have scars so deep that they don't care anymore. Before I met my wife I was like that myself.

[ascendotum]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I feel that most people like to go with the flow, they like to do things in a similar way to other people.

 

If there are two grocery stores in town and one is very busy and the other is very quiet, people get worried visiting the quiet one.

Why is it quiet? Why does no-one come in here? What is wrong with it?

They feel happier to have the support of others that all go to the same busy store, that others find it better somehow.

 

Also if I am going to buy a TV and one has 200 good reviews and the other I may think is similar or even better, has 2 good reviews.

Do I stick my neck out and get the unpopular one or do I think well 200 people have bought this TV and they all like it, so I will just get it too.

 

Many people like to think that the person they date is going to be popular with others, they do not want to go out on a limb for fear of making a mistake and making a fool of themselves.

 

Little Miss Perfect or Mr Nice Guy in the corner are not the proven article.

They are the unknown quantity, they are the "reviewed by 2" TV, or the quiet store no-one goes to. "

 

I really don't think most guys think like this. women definitely more so, but I cant see this accounting for Phoe's scenario. Your 2 grocery store scenario applied here I just don't see it. If the guys are getting laid and don't plan to wife the women up, sure (these women do have a rep), but I really don't see why guys are going to choose grocery store B long term when its bitchy + overly dramatic + drinks too much + making fools of themselves + bad hygiene + overweight + slackers....just because its popular with other guys, and skip on the better one. Guys just don't work like that. They want what attracts them and often that is the same thing as lots of other guys, but they don't switch from the girl they fancy at a party with no one around her to the girl with an entourage of friends to queue up with the other guys and compete for her attention. If some of these guys at Phoe's work are not actually single then it would make more sense. they don't want anything serious with any women there (sweet sheby/phoe or the 'wrong choice' women and these trashier women like to party.

[whirl3daway]

I don't really have standards, don't know where you got that.

 

My standards are pretty basic. Be a clean and nice person, that's all I expect.

 

Hi Phoe! I've never really commented on your threads, but I've read quite a lot of them as I find your point of view very interesting. You'll note from my posting history that I've had some crappy relationships and life experiences, but one thing I've never lacked is male attention. This makes me sound conceited, but I'm setting a scene here. I'm not better looking than you, and you have a better body than I do.

 

I note that you say things like that I quoted, fairly frequently. I've also noticed that when people call you on it, you tend to argue back about why you think you're NOT that way. Which is fine, you definitely have to make your point. But in my experience with men... you should be a prime catch. You love video games, you're low-key, you're funny, you're good looking, into fitness, like sex, are giving, etc. There's nothing WRONG with having standards, and you certainly should have more standards than "be clean, and be a decent human being".

 

I say this, not to hurt your feelings, but to really make you think. I think your self-esteem is quite low, and that you under-sell yourself, even TO yourself. I understand that you probably don't want to seem like you are arrogant, so you stress that you are normal, have flaws, don't like drama "like other women" etc. It almost seems like you have a stigma about BEING a woman, in some ways. There's nothing wrong with being who you are, and if that means liking drama or being high-maintenance, that's okay.

 

The honest truth is... you give off a bit of a "victim" vibe. Your posts tend to be centered around "this is why I am a good catch, why am I not getting male attention?" I understand that these are your problems that you post about, but there is a way that you phrase things that catches my eye. The posts about your recent ex also drew my attention. You didn't stand up for yourself in quite a few situations, which people on these boards told you, but you seemed to argue with them.

 

The biggest thing, to me, that other posters have also said, is that you seem to lack confidence in yourself. You seem to think of yourself as "theoretically a good catch, but average in most ways". Although it sounds silly - people can really pick up on that sort of thing, and it's a bummer! Even if it's true, no one wants to think they are dating someone average. I bet the difference between the women you're posted about and yourself lies in this issue. Women like that tend to be very: "who gives a fck? I am me and they can fck off if they don't like me", and in my experience, people respond positively to attitudes like this.

 

Even if you don't come out and SAY it, the way you phrase things, the body language you portray, the stories you tell about yourself, the jokes you make... all of these things give off a vibe. I have a feeling that the vibe you're giving off is a lot like the one you give off on these forums - although of course, this is the internet.

 

For example - you made a post trying to figure out the best way to approach a dude. To me, this is hard to understand. I just talk to them like they are people, and if they don't like the way I approach them... then who cares? I understand you posted this in an attempt to figure out why what you're doing isn't working... but the fact that you're wondering what you're doing wrong, vs. what they're doing wrong is what intrigues me.

 

You seem to expend a lot of energy trying to understand the motivations of other people. This can translate, IRL, to someone who cares too much about what other people think, and this is a turn off to a lot of guys. You seem very sweet, and very nice. Almost too nice, in some ways. I bet this is a deterrent to the men you meet IRL also. Most guys seem to like a bit of spice, a little bit of sass. I like this in men, also.

 

I think all you really need to do... is focus on finding true love for yourself, and cultivate feeling like the people who date you, are LUCKY to date you, because you are awesome. In other words, I think if you work on your outward confidence, your dating life will improve a lot. In future relationships, I would also reconsider the types of things that you are willing to "take". Lending money to your boyfriend is a nice thing to do, but you have to be willing to make him be responsible for paying it back. This includes setting up a payment plan, or sending him reminders/texts once a week to pay you back, or whatever else. Standing up for yourself and doing what's right by you isn't being high-maintenance - you need to stand up for yourself because that's how people learn to respect you.

Edited January 21, 2015 by whirl3daway
lol stupid format!

[whirl3daway]

Another thought... if you overheard the cute guy at the restaurant say that you're polite, you should have followed up. Even if it was just to tease! "Oh, you think I'm polite, eh? You should hear my mouth when I'm camping n00bs in COD!" or something like that. Something that throws people off, makes them think and makes them laugh.

 

Even if he was being mean about you, that lets him know that you heard what he said and that you don't take anyone's crap.

[verhrzn]

The biggest thing, to me, that other posters have also said, is that you seem to lack confidence in yourself. You seem to think of yourself as "theoretically a good catch, but average in most ways". Although it sounds silly - people can really pick up on that sort of thing, and it's a bummer! Even if it's true, no one wants to think they are dating someone average. I bet the difference between the women you're posted about and yourself lies in this issue. Women like that tend to be very: "who gives a fck? I am me and they can fck off if they don't like me", and in my experience, people respond positively to attitudes like this.

 

Okay I have a question about this (maybe Phoe is curious too.) I hear this kind of advice all the time.

 

However, I also frequently hear guys talk about how they hate this attitude. How they hate that women are "stuck up" and "think they're all that."

 

Example: I went on a date with a guy once. He pointed out a woman who was wearing this adorable outfit. True, maybe it didn't look the best on her, but she was clearly confident and didn't care what other people thought. His comment was "Ugh doesn't she realize how she looks? Women like that shouldn't wear those types of clothes." (Extra bonus: This woman has a very similar body shape to me.)

 

Any time I have felt confident and decided to not care what other people think, people tell me I act stuck-up and b*tchy.

 

So how exactly are you supposed to feel confident/not care what others think as a way to be attractive (which seems counter-productive...) and it turns out acting that way makes you even more unattractive to folks?