When people pursue the obviously wrong choice.

[whirl3daway]

Okay I have a question about this (maybe Phoe is curious too.) I hear this kind of advice all the time.

 

However, I also frequently hear guys talk about how they hate this attitude. How they hate that women are "stuck up" and "think they're all that."

 

Example: I went on a date with a guy once. He pointed out a woman who was wearing this adorable outfit. True, maybe it didn't look the best on her, but she was clearly confident and didn't care what other people thought. His comment was "Ugh doesn't she realize how she looks? Women like that shouldn't wear those types of clothes." (Extra bonus: This woman has a very similar body shape to me.)

 

Any time I have felt confident and decided to not care what other people think, people tell me I act stuck-up and b*tchy.

 

So how exactly are you supposed to feel confident/not care what others think as a way to be attractive (which seems counter-productive...) and it turns out acting that way makes you even more unattractive to folks?

 

 

Did you go out on any further dates with this jerk? I'm guessing not. He seems like a piece of work. That should explain what you think about him and his opinion. The woman he was talking about - clearly does not give a crap about guys like him. That attitude is the winner, because she's already weeded out a jerk just by being who she is! That's the point!

 

You can't stop other people from thinking whatever they want to about you. The idea is not CARING about whether or not you are unattractive to some folks. Some people want to bone me. Some people don't. I don't waste time thinking about the ones that don't, because what good does that do me? It's a genuine shift in thinking, from being concerned about what people think about you, to not being concerned.

 

Also, any man who thinks "ugh, who does she think she is?" - is not a man I want in my life.

[mammasita]

Phoe - I learned a life lesson about not having "standards" very recently.

 

My ex that brought me here was "clean and nice". That was it....that's all I wanted, nothing more. He dumped me because apparently I was too good....I emasculated him. I earn more money than him, I have my own things and I don't need him.

 

He's now with a fixer upper. An ex stripper with no job who is pregnant (not his child) and has moved in with him after they had only been dating a month.

 

I say f*#k not having standards.

[verhrzn]

Did you go out on any further dates with this jerk? I'm guessing not. He seems like a piece of work. That should explain what you think about him and his opinion. The woman he was talking about - clearly does not give a crap about guys like him. That attitude is the winner, because she's already weeded out a jerk just by being who she is! That's the point!

 

You can't stop other people from thinking whatever they want to about you. The idea is not CARING about whether or not you are unattractive to some folks. Some people want to bone me. Some people don't. I don't waste time thinking about the ones that don't, because what good does that do me? It's a genuine shift in thinking, from being concerned about what people think about you, to not being concerned.

 

Well I can't speak for Phoe, but it seems like the whole idea is to "weed out" the ones who don't think well of you/are jerks, etc.

 

Except what if that weeds out all of them?

 

What if there is literally no one left who could like you as your "don't give a f" self?

 

I care about what other people think because I need to adjust/change myself to make people like me. If nobody likes me as I am, not giving a f might save me some emotional energy, but it would change nothing. So is it really a good strategy for finding a relationship?

[whirl3daway]

Well I can't speak for Phoe, but it seems like the whole idea is to "weed out" the ones who don't think well of you/are jerks, etc.

 

Except what if that weeds out all of them?

 

What if there is literally no one left who could like you as your "don't give a f" self?

 

I care about what other people think because I need to adjust/change myself to make people like me. If nobody likes me as I am, not giving a f might save me some emotional energy, but it would change nothing. So is it really a good strategy for finding a relationship?

 

I find your mindset sort of puzzling, I guess. There's no way that being confident in yourself can weed out every single person who is interested in you. Why would you want someone who wants you when you're not confident about who you are? Do you think that there are literally NO people out there that would like you, for who you are? The people you are weeding out by being confident in yourself are the people you don't want to be in a relationship with, in my opinion.

 

If someone gives you a LEGIT thing to change about yourself, like "hey... I notice that you like to kick stray cats and that is awful, you shouldn't do that" - that is one thing. But if a person thinks you shouldn't dress a certain way because HE thinks it's unflattering, then that is not someone I want in my life either.

Edited January 21, 2015 by whirl3daway

[Phoe]

Hi Phoe! I've never really commented on your threads, but I've read quite a lot of them as I find your point of view very interesting. You'll note from my posting history that I've had some crappy relationships and life experiences, but one thing I've never lacked is male attention. This makes me sound conceited, but I'm setting a scene here. I'm not better looking than you, and you have a better body than I do.

 

I note that you say things like that I quoted, fairly frequently. I've also noticed that when people call you on it, you tend to argue back about why you think you're NOT that way. Which is fine, you definitely have to make your point. But in my experience with men... you should be a prime catch. You love video games, you're low-key, you're funny, you're good looking, into fitness, like sex, are giving, etc. There's nothing WRONG with having standards, and you certainly should have more standards than "be clean, and be a decent human being".

 

I say this, not to hurt your feelings, but to really make you think. I think your self-esteem is quite low, and that you under-sell yourself, even TO yourself. I understand that you probably don't want to seem like you are arrogant, so you stress that you are normal, have flaws, don't like drama "like other women" etc. It almost seems like you have a stigma about BEING a woman, in some ways. There's nothing wrong with being who you are, and if that means liking drama or being high-maintenance, that's okay.

 

The honest truth is... you give off a bit of a "victim" vibe. Your posts tend to be centered around "this is why I am a good catch, why am I not getting male attention?" I understand that these are your problems that you post about, but there is a way that you phrase things that catches my eye. The posts about your recent ex also drew my attention. You didn't stand up for yourself in quite a few situations, which people on these boards told you, but you seemed to argue with them.

 

The biggest thing, to me, that other posters have also said, is that you seem to lack confidence in yourself. You seem to think of yourself as "theoretically a good catch, but average in most ways". Although it sounds silly - people can really pick up on that sort of thing, and it's a bummer! Even if it's true, no one wants to think they are dating someone average. I bet the difference between the women you're posted about and yourself lies in this issue. Women like that tend to be very: "who gives a fck? I am me and they can fck off if they don't like me", and in my experience, people respond positively to attitudes like this.

 

Even if you don't come out and SAY it, the way you phrase things, the body language you portray, the stories you tell about yourself, the jokes you make... all of these things give off a vibe. I have a feeling that the vibe you're giving off is a lot like the one you give off on these forums - although of course, this is the internet.

 

For example - you made a post trying to figure out the best way to approach a dude. To me, this is hard to understand. I just talk to them like they are people, and if they don't like the way I approach them... then who cares? I understand you posted this in an attempt to figure out why what you're doing isn't working... but the fact that you're wondering what you're doing wrong, vs. what they're doing wrong is what intrigues me.

 

You seem to expend a lot of energy trying to understand the motivations of other people. This can translate, IRL, to someone who cares too much about what other people think, and this is a turn off to a lot of guys. You seem very sweet, and very nice. Almost too nice, in some ways. I bet this is a deterrent to the men you meet IRL also. Most guys seem to like a bit of spice, a little bit of sass. I like this in men, also.

 

I think all you really need to do... is focus on finding true love for yourself, and cultivate feeling like the people who date you, are LUCKY to date you, because you are awesome. In other words, I think if you work on your outward confidence, your dating life will improve a lot. In future relationships, I would also reconsider the types of things that you are willing to "take". Lending money to your boyfriend is a nice thing to do, but you have to be willing to make him be responsible for paying it back. This includes setting up a payment plan, or sending him reminders/texts once a week to pay you back, or whatever else. Standing up for yourself and doing what's right by you isn't being high-maintenance - you need to stand up for yourself because that's how people learn to respect you.

 

Thanks for the message.

 

 

All the points you've made are ones I've definitely been told here before. Some of which I agree with, others I disagree with. I will try to address as much of your post as I can but I may miss something.

 

 

I don't have high standards other than someone who is nice and has proper hygiene, because I don't even know what else to choose. What else matters when choosing who I want to date? Sure, things matter farther down the line, but when all I want to do is get dates, why do I need to find more things to be picky about? It makes no sense.

 

 

I've been accused of putting out a "victim" vibe, and I've said it before, I don't view myself as a victim. I'm not a victim of anything, except perhaps just occasional unfortunate circumstances and being in my own head. Otherwise, I'm no victim. No one's out to get me. No one's targeting me. I'm not a victim.

 

 

Sure, theoretically I'm a "good catch". On paper I make some sense. That doesn't necessarily translate to real life. I'm an average person, totally normal. It takes more than just ticking boxes on paper to actually be valuable.

 

 

In regards to the "approaching men" thread, When I say I want advice on how to approach a dude, I don't mean advice on how to literally walk up and talk. I have no problems talking to people. I mean "approach" as in, specifically with a romantic intent. How to put that intent out there in a way that is appealing to a man. I can walk up to people and talk to them all day. I talk to people at the market. I talk to people at the post office. I talk to people at the bank. No biggy. I'm sociable. It's actual PURSUIT that I need advice for.

 

 

I think a lot about what other think. Not because I CARE, but because I'm CURIOUS.

 

 

I have an inquisitive mind. Understanding how other people think, what makes them tick, isn't about me specifically caring what they think, but just finding it interesting. People who know me IRL would tell you I'm the kind of person who doesn't care what others think. And that's pretty true. I have a tough skin.

 

 

I have no issues with women. I get along with women fine, so long as they are a nice person. Same with men. I won't get along with men who aren't nice people. I don't pretend to not like drama and pretend not to be high maintenance just for the sake of pushing myself away from "being a woman", I literally just don't like drama and have no interest in being high maintenance. Those things mentally exhaust me. If others want to partake in it, fine, but leave me out.

 

 

My outward confidence is honestly a lot different than how you are perceiving it. I am confident in myself, outside of dating. I am smart, talented, a hard worker, and a capable adult. I am confident in myself in many aspects of life. I am naturally a leader, and always through school and work am someone who is in leadership positions. I don't shy away from the light, can be assertive, and have a voice that I am not afraid to use. And when I am with friends, I am sassy. They describe me as sassy all the time. I have a quick wit, and while never mean, can always quip back with some sass and a smile when it's offered up to me.

 

 

And I know I say these things all the time. I defend myself all the time on this forum and sometimes feel like a broken record and I know many posters are tired of hearing it. But the way I am here is very different from me IRL. I post here with my doubts and my thoughts and my odd observations as a venting system. They aren't pervasive in my typical day to day thoughts.

[verhrzn]

I find your mindset sort of puzzling, I guess. There's no way that being confident in yourself can weed out every single person who is interested in you. Why would you want someone who wants you when you're not confident about who you are? Do you think that there are literally NO people out there that would like you, for who you are? The people you are weeding out by being confident in yourself are the people you don't want to be in a relationship with, in my opinion.

 

I think a better way to put it is confidence doesn't make someone interested in you, if they aren't interested in you already. I've almost never had anyone interested in me, so confidence and "give no f's" didn't change anything except make people like me even less.

 

Yes, I do believe that are literally no people out there who like me for who I am (romantically.) The only way I've been marginally successful is by really stretching and changing myself.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Okay I have a question about this (maybe Phoe is curious too.) I hear this kind of advice all the time.

 

However, I also frequently hear guys talk about how they hate this attitude. How they hate that women are "stuck up" and "think they're all that."

 

And those tend to be the guys who don't get women anyway.

 

Example: I went on a date with a guy once. He pointed out a woman who was wearing this adorable outfit. True, maybe it didn't look the best on her, but she was clearly confident and didn't care what other people thought. His comment was "Ugh doesn't she realize how she looks? Women like that shouldn't wear those types of clothes." (Extra bonus: This woman has a very similar body shape to me.)

 

Any time I have felt confident and decided to not care what other people think, people tell me I act stuck-up and b*tchy.

Yes but the funny thing is, that "stuck up" and "bitchy" attitude a lot of girls get tons of flack for having is the very same one the women in Phoe's posts seemed to have...and guess what, they have no shortage of male attention.

 

Trying to make yourself meek and small and acting overly humble about your positive attributes can often backfire. Rather than not appearing "arrogant" you instead appear to have subzero self-esteem. There's a happy medium between downplaying yourself and being obnoxiously cocky. But even still, a little cockiness here and there does go a long way.

 

So how exactly are you supposed to feel confident/not care what others think as a way to be attractive (which seems counter-productive...) and it turns out acting that way makes you even more unattractive to folks?

 

Because once you are legitimately confident with yourself, you really no longer care how others perceive you. I promise you, this is a real thing and it's so damn liberating and awesome I wish I could hand it out like candy on Halloween. Once you KNOW your inherent value and stop trying to hide the fact that you know it, you no longer worry about those that might feel you have too much self-assurance since you understand that they're not worth your time anyway.

 

Confidence is important. In fact, it is THE most important. People assume a confident person must be confident because they have objectively positive qualities. Because of this, their valuation of you immediately goes up and you suddenly become someone they want to know.

[regine_phalange]

Hydra pretty much nailed it. Many people are sexually attracted to bitchiness. They can't help it. And after the sexual attraction comes an emotional attraction because winning the affections of a "difficult" woman makes them feel important. Especially if they competed with other men and won. Something like a trophy. If you allow me to make an observation, I haven't seen it that often with men who are competitive in other ways (e.g. sports or work). What if you went to that direction and date someone who is a semi-professional athlete or one of the top in his career field?

[Phoe]

Trying to make yourself meek and small and acting overly humble about your positive attributes can often backfire. Rather than not appearing "arrogant" you instead appear to have subzero self-esteem. There's a happy medium between downplaying yourself and being obnoxiously cocky. But even still, a little cockiness here and there does go a long way.

 

 

 

Because once you are legitimately confident with yourself, you really no longer care how others perceive you. I promise you, this is a real thing and it's so damn liberating and awesome I wish I could hand it out like candy on Halloween.

 

I know you were addressing verh, but similar thing have been said to me so I felt that I would reply.

 

 

People on this forum often think I am meek.

 

 

NOPE. Not even

 

 

I've said it many times, and I often feel like I have to really push it and say it frequently, because people are so convinced that I am meek, it's almost as if my assertions that I'm not get totally overlooked.

 

 

I am always someone who is in a leadership position. I don't shy away from attention, am sociable, and am not afraid to use my voice. I can be sassy at moments, am sociable, and when others try to get snarky with me, it bounces right off. I don't react. People stop rather quickly when they don't get a reaction. If I was meek and sad about it, that would fuel people to keep doing it. If I got angry and snapped back, that would also be fuel. Friction. By not reacting and letting snarky comments IRL bounce off me and just keep moving, people get bored of it easily and soon enough show me respect. People know not to mess with me, not because I am "dangerous" but because I have a quiet confidence that shows I deserve respect.

 

 

Not a single person who knows me IRL has ever or would ever describe me as meek or unconfident.

 

 

People who are truly meek IRL. They get told so. People tell them they are meek and quiet.

 

 

Nobody tells me this though. Makes you think I'm likely NOT meek, right?

[verhrzn]

Hydra pretty much nailed it. Many people are sexually attracted to bitchiness. They can't help it. And after the sexual attraction comes an emotional attraction because winning the affections of a "difficult" woman makes them feel important. Especially if they competed with other men and won. Something like a trophy. If you allow me to make an observation, I haven't seen it that often with men who are competitive in other ways (e.g. sports or work). What if you went to that direction and date someone who is a semi-professional athlete or one of the top in his career field?

 

If addressing me: *Laughs for ten minutes straight*

 

Also I'm pretty damn bitchy here, and it hasn't made people more attracted to me.

 

Phoe... maybe that's part of the problem. People show you respect. They can't create "friction" with you. How many love stories are based off the whole "fighting as sexual tension" thing? I personally believe such relationships can have a very unhealthy dynamic, but maybe you need to get a little angry, bitchy, flawed and "friction-y" to start creating a bit of tension.

[xxoo]

People have a knack for picking someone who will help them learn the lessons they need to learn. This can be seen when people choose partners who mirror the same conflicts they had with their parents.

 

Instead of seeing them as picking the "wrong" people, consider that they need to learn this lesson before they can be ready for the "right" person.

[Phoe]

 

Phoe... maybe that's part of the problem. People show you respect. They can't create "friction" with you. How many love stories are based off the whole "fighting as sexual tension" thing? I personally believe such relationships can have a very unhealthy dynamic, but maybe you need to get a little angry, bitchy, flawed and "friction-y" to start creating a bit of tension.

 

Ehh, I'd feel pretty darn terrible if I started acting intentionally bitchy.

 

 

And I'd feel ESPECIALLY terrible, if by doing so, I were to upset someone.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Nobody tells me this though. Makes you think I'm likely NOT meek, right?

 

No, because according to you, people don't really seem to talk to you or like you or take any interest in you at all in real life so even if you DID come off as meek, they wouldn't tell you that anyway right?

 

But setting that aside, okay so you're not "meek", per se, fine. But you're clearly not bold or brazen either. And you're certainly not carrying yourself with an attitude that commands/demands respect. And please, don't say you do because while you might think that, the hundreds of posts you've made about various scenarios in which you were completely disrespected clearly says otherwise. You cannot possibly come off as such a fiercely confident leader in real life if you've been treated as you often have been.

 

Nevertheless, that hyper-focus on not being like "other girls" and excessive pride in being extremely low maintenance has gotten you nowhere thus far so....maybe try to the opposite then? Be the woman who expects a guy to pay more than $15 for her dinner. Be the girl who gets a bit more than "sassy" when challenged from time to time. What on earth do you have to lose?

[regine_phalange]

If addressing me: *Laughs for ten minutes straight*

 

Sorry, but I didn't read all the posts of the thread, including yours If I was addressing you specifically I'd use a quote or your nickname.

 

Bottom line is that people like what they like for their own reasons and there's nothing wrong with that. It's also not wrong to use your experience and observations to find someone more compatible. I know many happy couples where both the man and the woman are decent low drama simple people with good careers, and their relationship never started with or was based on friction.

[verhrzn]

Sorry, but I didn't read all the posts of the thread, including yours If I was addressing you specifically I'd use a quote or your nickname.

 

Hehe good to clear that up!

[whirl3daway]

I think a better way to put it is confidence doesn't make someone interested in you, if they aren't interested in you already. I've almost never had anyone interested in me, so confidence and "give no f's" didn't change anything except make people like me even less.

 

Yes, I do believe that are literally no people out there who like me for who I am (romantically.) The only way I've been marginally successful is by really stretching and changing myself.

 

Hi Ver! Sorry to thread-jack, Phoe, but I just wanted to respond to this post for a second. I read your other thread about settling and admit that I haven't read anything else you've posted but, I guess this strikes me as an unhealthy attitude. If this is how you truly feel, you're probably broadcasting this to other people. I honestly think you're suffering from poor self esteem in a very deep way. I'm curious...have you ever gone to therapy? Sorry if you've talked about this elsewhere. It makes me sad to think you actually feel this way.

[whirl3daway]

Because once you are legitimately confident with yourself, you really no longer care how others perceive you. I promise you, this is a real thing and it's so damn liberating and awesome I wish I could hand it out like candy on Halloween. Once you KNOW your inherent value and stop trying to hide the fact that you know it, you no longer worry about those that might feel you have too much self-assurance since you understand that they're not worth your time anyway.

 

Confidence is important. In fact, it is THE most important. People assume a confident person must be confident because they have objectively positive qualities. Because of this, their valuation of you immediately goes up and you suddenly become someone they want to know.

 

 

You're so right about this. I used to spend so much time paralyzed by what people thought of me. Why doesn't he find me sexy? Why didn't he want to hang out with me? God, who cares? I think I'm pretty swell, and if he doesn't, his loss. My whole life changed once I realized that.

[Phoe]

No, because according to you, people don't really seem to talk to you or like you or take any interest in you at all in real life so even if you DID come off as meek, they wouldn't tell you that anyway right?

 

But setting that aside, okay so you're not "meek", per se, fine. But you're clearly not bold or brazen either. And you're certainly not carrying yourself with an attitude that commands/demands respect. And please, don't say you do because while you might think that, the hundreds of posts you've made about various scenarios in which you were completely disrespected clearly says otherwise. You cannot possibly come off as such a fiercely confident leader in real life if you've been treated as you often have been.

 

Nevertheless, that hyper-focus on not being like "other girls" and excessive pride in being extremely low maintenance has gotten you nowhere thus far so....maybe try to the opposite then? Be the woman who expects a guy to pay more than $15 for her dinner. Be the girl who gets a bit more than "sassy" when challenged from time to time. What on earth do you have to lose?

 

 

 

Where'd you get the impression that nobody talks to me IRL?

 

 

People talk to me just fine. I have many friends and acquaintances and talk with complete strangers regularly. I say this all the time!

 

 

What I don't get, is romantic interest. I am not being pursued and approached romantically. I'm not being asked out, asked for my number, men aren't showing romantic interest in me. Plenty talk to me in a polite and friendly manner, plenty talk to me platonically.

 

 

That is the distinction... a very clear distinction. A lack of dating/romantic interest. I'm not being blatantly ignored and completely not talked to as if I don't exist.

 

 

It always boggles me when people seem to have a very clear distaste for the fact that I am happy to be low maintenance and always have to put in quotations that I insist that I'm "not like other girls". As if I'm putting up a very clear and distinct barrier. That is not something I am doing. That is something that you poster who think that are simply choosing to project onto me of your own volition. That is not the way I think. I have no issues with women, but people on this forum seem to want me to have issues with them, seem to want the fact that I may do things differently than the norm to mean more than it does.

 

 

I am low maintenance because that's what makes me happy. I have no interest in doing high maintenance things. It simultaneously bores and exhausts me. I get no pleasure from it. I don't do it to "be different from other women". I have no qualms with whether other women want to get their hair and nails done. I don't care how long other women take to get ready, how many products they own or wear. I don't care. As long as they are happy that's fine. But don't tell me that there's some sort of ulterior motive because I simply enjoy doing something else.

 

 

I'm not gonna spend time and money I don't have, on things I don't want or need, simply to be what others think I should be, or be what others "think I am rejecting". I am not rejecting anything. There is nothing intentional in my "rejection". It's as if people think me "rejecting" being high maintenance is like I'm rebelling against "being a woman". As if there's some sort of mini anarchist inside me telling me to "be different".

 

 

No. I just do what I like. Being low-maintenance and minimalist makes me happy and eases stress from my life. Therefore I am happy and proud of myself for it.

 

 

If being "high maintenance" made me happy and eased stress, I'd just as quickly be proud of myself for that.

 

 

Quite simply, if there is something about myself that makes me happy, I am proud. And that's that!

[whirl3daway]

Phoe,

 

I guess I find it interesting that so many different posters have said similar things to you - if you don't think they are true, then what do you think we are seeing? We can only go off what you post, and this is what several people have thought about you. yes, perhaps there's something we are missing, but there is something there that I would think about if I were you.

 

I'm not attacking you in any way - I used the quotes to signify things you've said before, as a quotation. I think you're a nice gal. Something about you just strikes me as a bit off, no offense meant. Your situations with your ex made you seem a little doormat-ish and like you valued him more than your self respect. But then you blast people on here like you have a ton of pride, as you should! Does that translate into real life?

 

Please, don't think I am trying to be mean to you. I'm just very interested by your experiences.

[Phoe]

Phoe,

 

I guess I find it interesting that so many different posters have said similar things to you - if you don't think they are true, then what do you think we are seeing? We can only go off what you post, and this is what several people have thought about you. yes, perhaps there's something we are missing, but there is something there that I would think about if I were you.

 

I'm not attacking you in any way - I used the quotes to signify things you've said before, as a quotation. I think you're a nice gal. Something about you just strikes me as a bit off, no offense meant. Your situations with your ex made you seem a little doormat-ish and like you valued him more than your self respect. But then you blast people on here like you have a ton of pride, as you should! Does that translate into real life?

 

Please, don't think I am trying to be mean to you. I'm just very interested by your experiences.

 

No offense taken

 

Indeed, I had tendencies in my last relationship where I did not stick up for myself.

 

Dating and relationships is my confidence kryptonite, so to speak. Those are the situations where I start to lose confidence and back down a bit.

 

In other situations, I am confident, without being over the top.

 

That's why when I get questioned here, I am quick to stand up for myself and defend myself. Because unless it's a dating situation, I am confident in myself and my beliefs.

 

I always find it odd how people suggest I am unconfident, meek, and lack self esteem and need to stick up for myself, but then people question the things that I AM confident and proud and happy about, and suggest that perhaps those things aren't right, and that I should change those things.

 

But I am quick to defend myself and stick to my guns about those things. The things that I am happy with myself about, the things that I am proud of, people can question them and suggest that I should change or rethink those things, but I hold my ground.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Any time I have felt confident and decided to not care what other people think, people tell me I act stuck-up and b*tchy.

 

So how exactly are you supposed to feel confident/not care what others think as a way to be attractive (which seems counter-productive...) and it turns out acting that way makes you even more unattractive to folks?

Because you REALLY don't care what people think, you are you and they can take it or leave it.

[Revolver]

I think a better way to put it is confidence doesn't make someone interested in you, if they aren't interested in you already. I've almost never had anyone interested in me, so confidence and "give no f's" didn't change anything except make people like me even less.

 

Yes, I do believe that are literally no people out there who like me for who I am (romantically.) The only way I've been marginally successful is by really stretching and changing myself.

 

But people give men that advice all the time. In fact throughout my life I've been told the less of a "F" you give the more women are attracted to you

[hotpotato]

I also think, for many men, a pretty face and a nice body with a sad story is VERY powerful. We want to rescue.

 

Let's say I am a stable guy with a good income.. I go on two dates..

 

A. Pretty girl with nice job, life together, stable income

 

B. Pretty girl, life in disarray, poor decisions, bad credit etc.

 

Chances are woman B is going to be all over me. Loving, sexual, caring, etc. She might even just truly respect me for being a responsible man, and I also have something she needs.

 

Woman A does not NEED me. So we might have a few lukewarm dates while she is dating others until it just ends one way or another.

 

if woman A acted like woman B I would take her in a heartbeat. But that just does not seem to be how it works.

 

Exactly my thoughts. The women the op describes have a genuine need for a man. Ive said things like this before and been pooh poohed, being too smart and too put together is a turn off. Most men want to add something to a womans life. What is he gonna add if shes 'got this' on her own.

[carhill]

 

Dating and relationships is my confidence kryptonite, so to speak. Those are the situations where I start to lose confidence and back down a bit.

 

In other situations, I am confident, without being over the top.

 

IMO, examine the dichotomy. Evidently you feel something about this impels 'wrong choice' for yourself, since you wanted others experiences about being attracted to wrong choices.

 

I don't think there's real advice in this instance. The factors are so individual that it's something the person must work out on their own.

 

That's why when I get questioned here, I am quick to stand up for myself and defend myself. Because unless it's a dating situation, I am confident in myself and my beliefs.

 

While certainly worthy of reflection, how you feel and behave isn't so different from a lot of other people. We have often differing feelings and behaviors in differing interpersonal relationships and relations. Identifying your differences and how they impel what you feel are 'wrong' choices and asking 'why' and working through to your own answer IMO is key to success. Does success guarantee a loving relationship? Nope! It simply defines parameters which you identify with as your personal style of health in relationships and relations. Will everyone agree? Nope! Will you always be a bit outlier, if you feel you are? Maybe! That's just how life goes. There's no perfect recipe for everything. There's just life.

 

I always find it odd how people suggest I am unconfident, meek, and lack self esteem and need to stick up for myself, but then people question the things that I AM confident and proud and happy about, and suggest that perhaps those things aren't right, and that I should change those things.

 

I don't personally see that (the unconfident/meek/lack of self esteem stuff) but I'm one of billions. I see a young lady struggling with self-identity in intimate relationships; where she 'fits' and how she meshes with potential partners and her difficulties in choosing those partners. That can be completely separate from intrinsic personality issues. IMO, again, there's no 'perfect recipe', rather a bunch of trial and error and finding what works for you.

 

But I am quick to defend myself and stick to my guns about those things. The things that I am happy with myself about, the things that I am proud of, people can question them and suggest that I should change or rethink those things, but I hold my ground.

 

If you feel comfortable in your own skin, go with that. Work on the stuff which you find unhealthy, frustrating, or, as you put it, 'wrong'. Leave the stuff you feel healthy about aside. Will others always agree? Nope! Will men not like the real Phoe? Maybe! Who do you want to be for the rest of your life? Those choices are 100% within your control. Control over other people? Zero control.

 

If this seems like it's going in circles, that's OK! Reflection and introspection can be like that. It's an imperfect process because, well, we're imperfect. Personally, I think you'll do just fine. Just the freedom of living to have this time to ponder these issues is a real gift in my book. Who knows, maybe your next choice will be the perfect one for you. Life is like that. Good luck!

[Quiet Storm]

People are a product of their experiences. Especially childhood experiences.

 

For example, if a boy had an alcoholic mom, who loved him and paid attention to him on some days, and on other days he was ignored while she was passed out, he probably tried to do things to win her love. And when she responded with a hug or validation, it felt really good to him. Since some days it was withheld, affection from mom was seen as valuable. That intermittent reinforcement sets up a dynamic as an adult where attention from emotionally unavailable women is also viewed as valuable.

 

The same dynamics are in play, as he is so used to feeling that way, it feels natural and comfortable. And he gets in that same pattern of trying to win her, because even a little attention feels so good.

 

This is only one possibility, and it's not just in alcoholic families. Kids that feel neglected, kids that feel that a parent loves a sibling more, kids that feel abandoned, will often be attracted to push-pull relationships or will be attracted to people who clearly aren't good for them.

 

Our past influences us much more than we think. We look at others and expect their actions to be logical, but many people are driven by emotions that even they don't understand.