Question for Christians

[Weezy1973]

If God is good, and God is all powerful, why do bad things happen?

 

From my deductions (and they are likely faulty!), the fact that bad things happen means either God is not good (I.e. He wants bad things to happen) or God is not all-powerful (i.e. He doesn't want bad things to happen, but can't stop them from happening).

[Arieswoman]

Weezy1973,

Christians believe that Scriptures make it plain that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now, but evil came as a result of the selfishness of man. The Bible teaches us that God is a God of love and He desired to create a person and eventually a race that would love Him. But genuine love cannot exist unless freely given through free choice and will, and thus man was given the choice to accept God’s love or to reject it. This choice made the possibility of evil become very real. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they did not choose something God created, but, by. their choice, they brought evil into the world. God is neither evil nor did He create evil. Man brought evil upon himself by selfishly choosing his own way apart from God’s way.

 

Because of the Fall, the world now is abnormal. Things are not in the state that they should be in. Man, as a result of the Fall, has been separated from God. Nature is not always kind to man and the animal world can also be his enemy. There is conflict between man and his fellowman. None of these conditions were true before the Fall. Any solution that might be given to the problems mankind faces must take into consideration that the world as it stands now is not normal.

[Weezy1973]

Weezy1973,

Christians believe that Scriptures make it plain that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now, but evil came as a result of the selfishness of man. The Bible teaches us that God is a God of love and He desired to create a person and eventually a race that would love Him. But genuine love cannot exist unless freely given through free choice and will, and thus man was given the choice to accept God’s love or to reject it. This choice made the possibility of evil become very real. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they did not choose something God created, but, by. their choice, they brought evil into the world. God is neither evil nor did He create evil. Man brought evil upon himself by selfishly choosing his own way apart from God’s way.

 

Because of the Fall, the world now is abnormal. Things are not in the state that they should be in. Man, as a result of the Fall, has been separated from God. Nature is not always kind to man and the animal world can also be his enemy. There is conflict between man and his fellowman. None of these conditions were true before the Fall. Any solution that might be given to the problems mankind faces must take into consideration that the world as it stands now is not normal.

 

Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey Him? Is God all knowing?

[todreaminblue]

Theres lots of reasons why bad things happen...one is we have agency......the choice to choose on what we do in life......after one particular bad beating in my life when i had set out to help an abused woman away from an abusive bf i was hiding her in my flat.........i questioned why me.......the fact was i chose not to let him in he got mad and beat me to a pulp...i chose not to let him in and he chose to kick the living crap out of me......there were others in the block of units, who would have heard me cry out the first few hits....for help....they chose to ignore it....and i chose to give up tryign to get help and took the beating..god can only work through tools...we are his tools...it was my turn to help someone....and i did......i was prompted to help her even though i was scared......i chose to help her......the bf chose to hate me for that adn i can honestly say at that time....he didnt have god in his heart....or his eyes....scary guy...with cruelty and drugs coursing though his veins.....

 

 

just like he chose what he did to me......agency is a blessing and a curse.....its a curse for those who use agency to hurt people.......but then .......its a blessing for those who decide to help people.......its all up to us...cant blame god if it goes bad......as humanity has often chose the wrong thing over the centuries...war ....famine desolation comes down to poor management of the gifts god has given us......he isnt there to wipe our noses all the time we have to make our own decisions...to help or to hurt...to manage or to be greedy sefl centred and in charge of countries..... and not manage.......and pilfer and ignore....all the good that is there been laid on practically for every human not just a select few.............its up to us........

 

note that even though these bad things have happened i have had much more good happen than bad....or i guess i wouldnt be here....and he didnt kill me so....bonus......deb

Edited January 24, 2015 by todreaminblue

[autumnnight]

Weezy1973,

Christians believe that Scriptures make it plain that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now, but evil came as a result of the selfishness of man. The Bible teaches us that God is a God of love and He desired to create a person and eventually a race that would love Him. But genuine love cannot exist unless freely given through free choice and will, and thus man was given the choice to accept God’s love or to reject it. This choice made the possibility of evil become very real. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they did not choose something God created, but, by. their choice, they brought evil into the world. God is neither evil nor did He create evil. Man brought evil upon himself by selfishly choosing his own way apart from God’s way.

 

Because of the Fall, the world now is abnormal. Things are not in the state that they should be in. Man, as a result of the Fall, has been separated from God. Nature is not always kind to man and the animal world can also be his enemy. There is conflict between man and his fellowman. None of these conditions were true before the Fall. Any solution that might be given to the problems mankind faces must take into consideration that the world as it stands now is not normal.

 

I was pretty much going to say this, so I won't repeat what she said. As to God being all knowing, yes He is. That is ultimately bring up the next question - if He knew they would choose to sin and start all this chaos, why did He create them/that must mean He isn't good.

 

That's the famous catch 22 isn't it? If God doesn't allow free will and sin He's a mean old control freak who sucks the fun out of life; if He does allow free will, sin, and consequences, He isn't good.

 

I fully admit I do not know the magic answers to these questions. That is one of the reasons it is called faith. I guess a bigger question - and one that reveals character - is this: Is it God's responsibility to watch us sin against Him at every turn and then shield us from the consequences we create? Is it His job to be our magic lamp genie and bodyguard all rolled into one?

[youngskywalker]

You will never get a straight answer on this from a christian. They go around in circles. But they will initially claim the world was created perfect and either the fall of angels or mans original sin caused pain and suffering.

 

I personally believe this dilemma is a strong argument that god does not exist for exactly some of the reasons you already gave.

 

lol look at the number of my posts.... What a coincidence

[Levite]

You will never get a straight answer on this from a christian. They go around in circles. But they will initially claim the world was created perfect and either the fall of angels or mans original sin caused pain and suffering.

 

I personally believe this dilemma is a strong argument that god does not exist for exactly some of the reasons you already gave.

 

lol look at the number of my posts.... What a coincidence

 

Try reading Saint Augustine. This debate has been resolved for centuries. If you prefer to run with half-assed arguments from random Christians on forums, and declare victory, that's your choice. But I'd recommend checking out Saint Augustine's answer. Cheers.

[chumble]

If God is good, and God is all powerful, why do bad things happen?

 

From my deductions (and they are likely faulty!), the fact that bad things happen means either God is not good (I.e. He wants bad things to happen) or God is not all-powerful (i.e. He doesn't want bad things to happen, but can't stop them from happening).

 

I'll bite.

 

Without the pull of two ends of a spectrum, life would have no meaning, and neither would the terms 'good' or 'bad.' It'd be like playing rugby with no opposing team; walking the ball to the goal repeatedly. No excitement.

 

The thing about most gods is that they are immortal, which means bad things don't happen to THEM. If bad things happen to us, maybe it's that he doesn't care so much about us. Of course, the Christian God has granted eternal life, which means he does.

 

Mark Twain wrote a story describing Heaven, and it is a very boring repetitive place. I think it would be boring to be an immortal god. God is bored, so he does bad stuff to liven up existence. Be thankful.

[Weezy1973]

Try reading Saint Augustine. This debate has been resolved for centuries. If you prefer to run with half-assed arguments from random Christians on forums, and declare victory, that's your choice. But I'd recommend checking out Saint Augustine's answer. Cheers.

 

Can you point me to where St. Augustine resolves this debate? I found some stuff on free will, but nothing really addressing the problem discussed here.

[youngskywalker]

Try reading Saint Augustine. This debate has been resolved for centuries. If you prefer to run with half-assed arguments from random Christians on forums, and declare victory, that's your choice. But I'd recommend checking out Saint Augustine's answer. Cheers.

 

There are numerous questions that St. Augustine fails to address that I'm sure will be brought up in this post. I'm looking forward to a good logical debate on this.

 

Saying that evil is not a created thing but instead the absence of goodness doesn't solve anything. Your religion has set the terms of the question, claiming that God is omnipotent and omniscient. All powerful and all knowing. That is what the bible teaches.

 

Let me throw out some food for thought. Christians will say:

 

Suffering is given by god to the unrighteous as punishment.

Suffering is given so that there is a contrast between good and evil so we might know and understand god.

Suffering is given given for the better good in ways we cannot understand.

Suffering is given so the glory of the lord can be revealed.

 

I think suffering occurs because either god isn't powerful enough, doesn't care, or doesn't exist.

[pie2]

Can you point me to where St. Augustine resolves this debate?

 

If the debate were fully resolved for non-believers (and believers too), you probably wouldn't have posed the question.

 

It's up to each individual to weigh the arguments and come to a conclusion. As you can see with many other debates, they usually aren't ever totally resolved (i.e. evolution, abortion, death penalty, etc).

 

One book I like is this one. But you actually have to read the books suggested to you, OP! They'll give a much more in-depth answer than what can be provided on a forum. I hope you're able to do that.

[Levite]

There are numerous questions that St. Augustine fails to address that I'm sure will be brought up in this post. I'm looking forward to a good logical debate on this.

 

Saying that evil is not a created thing but instead the absence of goodness doesn't solve anything. Your religion has set the terms of the question, claiming that God is omnipotent and omniscient. All powerful and all knowing. That is what the bible teaches.

 

Let me throw out some food for thought. Christians will say:

 

Suffering is given by god to the unrighteous as punishment.

Suffering is given so that there is a contrast between good and evil so we might know and understand god.

Suffering is given given for the better good in ways we cannot understand.

Suffering is given so the glory of the lord can be revealed.

 

I think suffering occurs because either god isn't powerful enough, doesn't care, or doesn't exist.

 

Augustine said that evil is better to be understood as that which has less reality (or goodness) than God's perfect reality. God created us with less reality and goodness than him. This is where "evil" comes from. We do not have total knowledge, therefore we sin, either in ignorance or in misguided awareness. So if God is to be blamed for evil, he can only be blamed for creating things which have less reality and goodness compared to him. Augustine is not skirting around evil and saying it doesn't exist (like a Christian scientist), but rather that it's the necessary result of beings who are not equal to God.

[Ronni_W]

Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey Him? Is God all knowing?

Actually, the Original Fall happened in the angelic realm, not in the material. It was Lucifer's refusing to obey God's edict that Angels should serve in the material realm. Lucifer recognized, as well as God did, what could - and likely would - happen if 'material man' was given free will...which the angels already had, obviously.

 

So, Lucifer rebelled against both, having to become a servant to 'man' and God's giving 'man' free will. "Being a servant" in the sense that, in the material realm, it is man's free will that is the primary (spiritual) Law, so the angels and other spiritual teachers in the high realms are subservient to us and our free will, no matter how we choose to use it, and for what purposes.

 

The Law of Cause and Effect (or karma), is the polarity to the Law of Free Will. 'Man' is equally subject to both laws...which is why there is evil in the material realm; call it "karmic returns" or call it the effects/consequences of our individual and collective misuse of our free will. We reap what we sow, individually and together.

Other Laws also, designed by the All-knowing God, to ensure checks and balances are in place so that one humanity cannot destroy God's entire creation.

 

God did create us in His image and likeness. He did not create us with less goodness. We have a fallen consciousness now, but we were not created that way; we fell from Christ Consciousness because of our misuse of our free will.

[Clair93]

If God is good, and God is all powerful, why do bad things happen?

 

From my deductions (and they are likely faulty!), the fact that bad things happen means either God is not good (I.e. He wants bad things to happen) or God is not all-powerful (i.e. He doesn't want bad things to happen, but can't stop them from happening).

 

There are two kind of answers to the problem of evil. "Free will" or "God works in mysterious ways". The first one doesn't account for non-human related sufferings, the second one undermines God's omnipotence and/or omniscience.

[Levite]

If an atheist cannot disprove that it's at least POSSIBLE that God has higher moral reasons for allowing evil, then he/she has no real argument. The mere POSSIBILITY, and the inability to disprove it, makes his/her argument null. (This was the argument of Dr. William Lane Craig.)

Edited January 27, 2015 by Levite

[Clair93]

If an atheist cannot disprove that it's at least POSSIBLE that God has higher moral reasons for allowing evil, then he/she has no real argument. The mere POSSIBILITY, and the inability to disprove it, makes his/her argument null. (This was the argument of Dr. William Lane Craig.)

 

If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, he can get to whatever ultimate goal he wants without invoking ANY evil. The fact that someone needs morally sufficient reasons to allow evil (basically has to compromise his own values for the greater good), tells us that he is not all-powerful, therefore not God.

 

What you (and WLC) are doing is called metaphysical cherrypicking. At any point you disregard the consequences of your claims on the overall concept of God, only to try to win an argument. Sorry, doesn't work.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Clair93

[Levite]

If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, he can get to whatever ultimate goal he wants without invoking ANY evil. The fact that someone needs morally sufficient reasons to allow evil (basically has to compromise his own values for the greater good), tells us that he is not all-powerful, therefore not God.

 

What you (and WLC) are doing is called metaphysical cherrypicking. At any point you disregard the consequences of your claims on the overall concept of God, only to try to win an argument. Sorry, doesn't work.

 

And what you, et al, are doing is establishing an argument which requires information that no human being can know. This is what WLC has tried to say. He's not saying your argument is true or false; rather than it's another irrefutable argument.

[alphamale]

If God is good, and God is all powerful, why do bad things happen?

god is very busy and as such things fall thru the cracks

[Levite]

The problem boils down to free will. A benevolent God will not force his creation to follow his perfect plan. Did he know about it in advance? Sure. Did he stop it? No. But no amount of power or omniscience can logically stop created beings with free will from disobeying. This doesn't reduce his power. Instead, BY his power and THROUGH his power he has created beings IN HIS IMAGE who have wills. There is no inferiority on God's part. Rather, the inferiority is a mirage of logic on your part.

[autumnnight]

If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, he can get to whatever ultimate goal he wants without invoking ANY evil. The fact that someone needs morally sufficient reasons to allow evil (basically has to compromise his own values for the greater good), tells us that he is not all-powerful, therefore not God.

 

What you (and WLC) are doing is called metaphysical cherrypicking. At any point you disregard the consequences of your claims on the overall concept of God, only to try to win an argument. Sorry, doesn't work.

 

Actually, what is really going on is that people who do not believe in God, do not desire to believe in God, who have no real desire for understanding and who have no problem reviling those who have faith are trying in earnest to back Christians into a corner to prove a point.

 

As I have read this thread, I keep thinking of the verses, Philippians 2:9-11. Sometimes I think that day cannot come soon enough.

[anika99]

The problem boils down to free will. A benevolent God will not force his creation to follow his perfect plan. Did he know about it in advance? Sure. Did he stop it? No. But no amount of power or omniscience can logically stop created beings with free will from disobeying. This doesn't reduce his power. Instead, BY his power and THROUGH his power he has created beings IN HIS IMAGE who have wills. There is no inferiority on God's part. Rather, the inferiority is a mirage of logic on your part.

 

Yes it really does come down to free will and natural consequences. People should try to look at it as being a parent to adults. We love our adult children, we want nothing more than to see them happy, fulfilled and successful but we have to let them live their lives as they wish. Even if we know without a doubt what they are doing wrong and what they should be doing to fix their problems we cannot force our will on them.

 

 

When people ask questions like "if God loves us then why does he allow bad things" they kind of sound like petulant spoiled children to me. Kind of like the adult man who does nothing but wreck his own life and then constantly runs to his mommy and daddy to fix his messes, and then throws an all out hissy fit when they step back and tell him it's time for him to grow up and take responsibility for his own choices.

 

 

People would despise an all powerful God who took away their choices and forced them to live according to his plan, which is understandable but you take the bad with the good. Do people want freedom or don't they? Total freedom and free will do not come without responsibilities and consequences. You cant' insist on absolute freedom and then demand some all powerful God run around cleaning up everyone's mistakes.

[Levite]

Yes it really does come down to free will and natural consequences. People should try to look at it as being a parent to adults. We love our adult children, we want nothing more than to see them happy, fulfilled and successful but we have to let them live their lives as they wish. Even if we know without a doubt what they are doing wrong and what they should be doing to fix their problems we cannot force our will on them.

 

 

When people ask questions like "if God loves us then why does he allow bad things" they kind of sound like petulant spoiled children to me. Kind of like the adult man who does nothing but wreck his own life and then constantly runs to his mommy and daddy to fix his messes, and then throws an all out hissy fit when they step back and tell him it's time for him to grow up and take responsibility for his own choices.

 

 

People would despise an all powerful God who took away their choices and forced them to live according to his plan, which is understandable but you take the bad with the good. Do people want freedom or don't they? Total freedom and free will do not come without responsibilities and consequences. You cant' insist on absolute freedom and then demand some all powerful God run around cleaning up everyone's mistakes.

 

That's a great analogy about the children who demand their parents clean up the mess they created yet throw a fit when their parents try to run their lives and tell them what to do. Can't have it both ways. I suppose the critics DO expect God to miraculously have it both ways.

[Clair93]

And what you, et al, are doing is establishing an argument which requires information that no human being can know. This is what WLC has tried to say. He's not saying your argument is true or false; rather than it's another irrefutable argument.

 

It is refutable. Tell me WHY an all-powerful God needs to compromise his own values when he can reach to whatever goal he wants without compromising his values. Asserting that he is not able to do reach his goal means that he is not all-powerful, asserting that he can but chooses not to (for any reason) means that he is not all-good. There is no way around this. You don't need to have any other information to see that this doesn't work.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Clair93

[autumnnight]

It is refutable. Tell me WHY an all-powerful God needs to compromise his own values when he can reach to whatever goal he wants without compromising his values. Asserting that he is not able to do reach his goal means that he is not all-powerful, asserting that he can but chooses not to (for any reason) means that he is not all-good. There is no way around this. You don't need to have any other information to see that this doesn't work.

 

We are all crystal clear on what you believe. Why the need to try to argue people out of their faith. That is what I don't get.

[Levite]

It is refutable. Tell me WHY an all-powerful God needs to compromise his own values when he can reach to whatever goal he wants without compromising his values. Asserting that he is not able to do reach his goal means that he is not all-powerful, asserting that he can but chooses not to (for any reason) means that he is not all-good. There is no way around this. You don't need to have any other information to see that this doesn't work.

 

Please re-read the last several posts about free will. What you are asking God to do is make black the same as white. And if can't (because these two are exclusive), you say, "Ha! Beat ya God! Aren't I so clever?"