The narcissist can feel it

[goodyblue]

It's rare because it's near impossible to diagnose. People with NPD are usually fully functional so for them to be committed, evaluated then diagnosed is not reasonable.

 

To get a Narcisist to admit the are one goes against the characteristics of their disorder all together. Even if you can get one to a therapist/psychologist they mold and manipulate easily.

 

I've been to a therapist and by description and based on many examples she has concluded my mother has NPD. So, I must handle situation and issues as if she was diagnosed with NPD.

 

I also have to say that that your therapist based her opinion of your mother on anecdotes from you. So even if your therapist thinks your mother may have NPD, the description is colored by your memory of events,which may or may not be accurate. So while you feel you must treat your mother as if she had NPD, there is absolutely no evidence that she does.

[jbrent890]

DKT3, How fortunate we all are to have your psychological expertise and be in the presence of someone with no human faults. I have sociopathic tendencies or maybe a narcissistic tendencies? I am at the very least a SELFISH human being by nature? You have never been selfish in your relationship with your wife? You have never had any other personal faults in your relationship? You are perfect and without faults? Interesting.....And I am the narcissist?

 

I realize you have never said you are perfect, but you don't know me. You know nothing about me and you and others make these judgements. I assume that those who have so many opinions about others, must themselves have very few character flaws. Having an affair may be selfish, but I spent 20 years of marriage giving and giving. My husband was selfish, consistently. I let it happen. I let him do whatever it was that made him happy (his athletic activities at least 5 days a week) while I raised the kids. He made all the choices that made him happy, I never argued. And now after giving of myself for decades, I did one thing for me. I did not do it to hurt him, I did not do it out of spite, but I did do it for me because I needed something desperately. Ok. I was and I am acting in a selfish way by having this affair. I would end the marriage tomorrow if my son was not so ill, but I must take that into consideration. My husband does not know how to handle any of it, I handle everything. Medications, doctor appointments, meetings with school. It is all on me because he doesn't know what to do. When my son becomes upset and my husband is with him, I am the one who must come deal with it. I am selfish. I do all this on my own because he doesn't know how or doesn't want to have to deal with any of this. I am selfish. I have been the main caregiver to our boys for 20 years. I am selfish. But my husband, who has been free to do as little as he wants when it comes to raising our kids, is without fault. He may have been selfish, but he didn't have an affair so he is clear of all wrongdoing. Amazing.

Live a life of selfishness, but never have an affair......Saint. Live a life of giving and then do one selfish act........CRUCIFIED (As predicted!).

 

FYI - I do not think my husband is a bad person. I don't sit around and think about him like that. I also don't think I am a bad person (I expect the peanut gallery to have a field day with that statement). I don't think all the OM, OW, MM, MW on this forum are bad, evil people because we had an affair. We may have acted in a selfish manner and we may have used poor judgment, but we are not all bad people. The comments directed at us by BSs often make us out to be people with major character defects and flaws. I just don't believe that and wish some of the broad generalizations would stop. Are there some evil, twisted people out there with mental disorders who are serial cheaters? Sure, but I think the majority cannot be classified as such.

 

Babs you obviously have not read DKTs story. He has stated multiple times that he was not the ideal husband, so much so, he honestly can't believe why Lovin wanted him back. The reason I have so much respect for him and Lovin is because they are able to acknowledge their own faults in the marriage and work past them. Their story is a perfect example on how to work through issues in a marriage.

 

On to your post. Right now you are in the justification phase. One of the things I noticed a lot about cheaters in this phase is that they don't want to see themselves as the bad guy. But let's be honest, you would not have to justify your actions if you didn't. I'm not going to call you narcissistic, but that is a very narcissistic trait. I think what is being said here is that nobody is calling all cheaters narcissistic, but they do exhibit more narcissistic traits than someone who doesn't cheat. Let's be real everybody is narcissistic to some degree lol. A perfect example of this is why you are staying in your marriage. You feel that leaving would cause a lot of harm to your son. The irony here Babs is that if your affair is ever revealed, that would cause even more damage. Knowing this, you still continue to cheat, why? Because at some level you don't think you don't think you will get caught. Again, that sense of invulnerability is a very narissistic trait.

 

Lastly, I noticed that DKT and Goldie said essentially the exact same thing. You were able to hold a meaningful conversation with her, but because DKT is a BS, you got very defensive and took his original post (which wasn't directed towards you) very personally. It's as if you are prepping for the conversation you will have with your husband if you do get caught. That leads me to believe Babs that there is going to be A LOT of blame shifting in that conversation. Again, people do that because they don't want to be seen as the bad guy. Another clear indication of a narcissistic trait. Again, I'm not directly calling you narcissistic, but your actions words definitely are.

 

PS

 

There have been WS on this site (lovin, violet, katielee) that have been just as and sometimes even more critical on WSs here. At the end of the day there is right and there is wrong. People regardless of their background are going to call you out if they feel that what you are doing is wrong. Like I said, that's life.

Edited January 30, 2015 by jbrent890

[gettingstronger]

The generalizations thrown around on here by people who have a WS are incredible. There is no single reason why affairs happen.

 

 

Ummm.... I believe the OP is an OW talking about her MM so I am unclear on this statement-

 

Anyway, OP, I agree and I think its great that you recognize how unhealthy these people in your life are- keep on keeping on-

[Mal78]

I do understand this. I suppose my point is simply that the word Narcissist is thrown around on LS quite freely and it is ridiculous to think that all or even most MM/MW are such. When I look at my guy I see a man who is kind and loving, who takes very good care of me and my gaggle of children. Who works diligently and fairly in a business filled with cut throats, who does charity work and tells no one because he does not want recognition. Who gives generously to organizations that need it in both time and money. Yeah, we had an affair, we shouldn't have. It was selfish on both o ur parts. But I do not believe he is inherently selfish. Or a Narcissist.

 

ABSOLUTELY! I don't believe it should be used as a derogatory term. If it is being used to describe characteristics of a person to better understand who they are and why they do such damaging things then I believe it's appropriate. If you call someone Narc, that is not appropriate.

[Broom]

A lot of points are valid. I've been "friends" with a NPD person. Whenever you try to confront them are put even a little bit of the blame on them, there's a major issue.

 

They can never admit or even see how they were complicit in anything. It's always they were 100% innocent and someone else's fault.

[the_artist_1970]

Everyone who enters into an affair has narcissistic tendencies, I don't care if you're the MM, the OW, the single OW, it doesn't matter. Every one of us does to some degree.

 

I absolutely agree with this. I don't understand why all the blame is put on the MM/MW. What about the AP who knowingly gets involved with someone who is M with no regard to their spouse. That is very narcissistic behavior. To disregard how someone will feel when you play a part in helping to hurt that person. The AP is a narcissist as well.

[Radu]

I know I have read this several times on here. But as the OW the A with a MM I think that the more I know the easier it gets to detach from him.

 

I have been reading about narcissists and their tendencies... My MM was the ultimate narcissist.

 

Do you think most A are pursued by an individual that is a narcissist? I'm pretty sure I totally fed into it and was gas-lighted throughout my whole 2 year affair.

 

But whats the likelihood that those of us who still have feelings for these MM are subjects of Narcissistic abuse. I am not saying that I don't own my part in this... Gezzzz...

Close but no.

 

#'s of men and women who cheat are about equal yet NPD's are mostly male ... actually in big proportion male. So it would not explain the female cheaters [the ones who pursue/initiate].

Outside of NPD's there are also Histrionics [drama seekers ... mostly female]; Antisocial and Anxiety PD's are the others.

Most ppl with a PD don't have 1 that is clear cut ... they have a mix of elements with 1 that stands out.

 

I would not say most ppl who engage in affairs have a PD but i would say that with the sense of entitlement sometimes necessary to pursue an affair you should find an abnormal amount of PD's amongst them.

[anika99]

So I am either a narcissist or a sociopath? Every person who has ever had an affair is a narcissist or a sociopath? And you know this because you got your degree in Psychiatry from where?

 

Is your wife a narcissist or a sociopath? Have you had her properly diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is she in counseling for one of these disorders? If not, how do you know it won't happen again?

 

The generalizations thrown around on here by people who have a WS are incredible. There is no single reason why affairs happen. If someone analyzed why and how they happened, I am sure there would be at least 10 reasons, but most likely hundreds. But in a BS mind, the reason why their WS had an affair is mental illness. No other reason than that. There was never ever a problem in the relationship, everything was rainbows and puppy dogs, but their spouse still cheated. I do not see things nearly so black and white and maybe that is because I am the cheater. There seem to be a lot of BS on here ready to crucify any WS they can find. They need to take out their anger someplace and this is a veritable stomping ground of cheaters to pounce on.

 

I know I too will be crucified for posting this. I am not claiming that cheaters are saints (obviously we are not), but neither are we all villains, heathens, people without conscious, or people with mental disorders or some other major character flaws. Oh and my other favorite, we are cheaters so obviously we are ALL going to be serial cheaters and do this again and again so we can NEVER be trusted. I love that one.

 

DKT3, I certainly hope that you don't think any of those things about your wife. We cannot possibly all be terrible, vile human beings. I know the attacks will not end. If a cheater posts, there will be good advice, bad advice and attacks on their character. Cheaters beware!

 

Possibly, just possibly, affairs happen because the relationship/marriage is ill, it is a symptom of a troubled relationship, not due to some mental disorder the WS has. Affairs do not occur in a vacuum.

 

Babs I think you are overreacting. You are twisting peoples words. You are the one who keeps equating mental illness and personality disorders with being bad, evil and vile. I would dare to say that many personality disordered people are not bad people at all and many lead productive happy lives but they have great difficulty in their personal relationships. I have had a couple of borderline personality disordered people in my life and they have been great friends but I just had to learn to keep a safe distance from them when they were melting down and acting out.

 

 

I do not think everyone in an affair is a full blown narcissist but I do believe that we are fall somewhere on a spectrum of personality disorders. Read up on the traits of narcissism and it will remind you of a few people in your life. Then read up on the traits of borderline personality disorder and it will remind you of a few more people in your life. While involved with my borderline friends (diagnosed) I did a lot of reading and for a while I thought my whole family were made up of borderlines, lol. Of course they are not, some just show strong characteristics of it. And I recognized some of my own behaviors and I don't have a problem admitting that. I'm grateful that I had the insight and self awareness to be able to see my own character flaws so that I could work on them and I have.

 

 

I think people in affairs may have had some subtle narcissistic traits (we all do to some degree) all along and the affair itself nurtured and encouraged those traits to flourish. They still may not be an actual full blown narcissist but their narcissistic side is taking over the show for the time being. People in affairs are not bad evil people, but affairs tend to bring out the worst of people. There is dishonesty, selfishness, jealousy, entitlement, etc. Everyone has some degree of these unlikable traits and affairs are like pouring fertilizer on those flaws. They just grow bigger and stronger.

 

 

I also find it interesting that you count your ongoing affair as ONE wrong compared to your husband's many wrongs, but wouldn't it have to be a one night stand to be able to count it as one act against the marriage? An ongoing affair is not one selfish act, it is many selfish acts occurring over and over again for a long span of time.

[Mal78]

I also have to say that that your therapist based her opinion of your mother on anecdotes from you. So even if your therapist thinks your mother may have NPD, the description is colored by your memory of events,which may or may not be accurate. So while you feel you must treat your mother as if she had NPD, there is absolutely no evidence that she does.

 

Plenty of evidence she does, unfortunately. Two of my brothers have also had therapist that believe this is the case also.

 

I would wish anything for it not to be so. It is hard (especially for my brothers) to have to tell people you can't have a healthy relationship with your Mother so you choose not having one at all. It's quite a daunting topic. "But she's your Mother"! It's not that cut and dry. I get a lot of "victim blaming" (so does my brothers). It's easy for people to dismiss an abusive Father... but an abusive Mother?!?

 

Again, she is functioning so to have her committed to be assessed, evaluated then diagnosed is impossible. She, on the other hand feels she has done nothing wrong and doesn't take ownership in NOTHING. My brothers and I would love an open and sincere apology or at least some validation. But no. So we have done all the work to heal from her.

 

My NM journals and writes long winded emails (10-20 pages long!). Plenty of tangible evidence. She had told my daughter that she has 8 journals since our NC and that she should read them to better understand me. My daughter replied, "I live with my Mother, I think know and understand her just fine". All 5 of my children have chosen NC. I have not influenced their decision, I have never denied her access. I don't speak ill of her, however her gaslighting, manipulation, triangulation and choosing a golden child... ect has been their breaking point. They weren't raised by her, they see that it's wrong. They haven't been conditioned.

 

She has 6 children, 5 are NC. But it's us... not her!

 

No, we don't have an "official diagnosis" but it's pretty clear to most.

[elaine567]

NPD is a spectrum disorder.

If we were all to take an NPD test we would all score some points to indicate narcissistic tendencies.

 

Whether we can put definite labels on some individuals or not, the reality that those sort of relationships are toxic, the victims hurt, the victims are often driven crazy, and usually the only real cure is to recognise the toxicity and get out.

[goodyblue]

Plenty of evidence she does, unfortunately. Two of my brothers have also had therapist that believe this is the case also.

 

I would wish anything for it not to be so. It is hard (especially for my brothers) to have to tell people you can't have a healthy relationship with your Mother so you choose not having one at all. It's quite a daunting topic. "But she's your Mother"! It's not that cut and dry. I get a lot of "victim blaming" (so does my brothers). It's easy for people to dismiss an abusive Father... but an abusive Mother?!?

 

Again, she is functioning so to have her committed to be assessed, evaluated then diagnosed is impossible. She, on the other hand feels she has done nothing wrong and doesn't take ownership in NOTHING. My brothers and I would love an open and sincere apology or at least some validation. But no. So we have done all the work to heal from her.

 

My NM journals and writes long winded emails (10-20 pages long!). Plenty of tangible evidence. She had told my daughter that she has 8 journals since our NC and that she should read them to better understand me. My daughter replied, "I live with my Mother, I think know and understand her just fine". All 5 of my children have chosen NC. I have not influenced their decision, I have never denied her access. I don't speak ill of her, however her gaslighting, manipulation, triangulation and choosing a golden child... ect has been their breaking point. They weren't raised by her, they see that it's wrong. They haven't been conditioned.

 

She has 6 children, 5 are NC. But it's us... not her!

 

No, we don't have an "official diagnosis" but it's pretty clear to most.

 

Mal, I would certainly not ever take away from you the fact that you feel your mother is batsh+t. I was just using it as an example because I tire of everyone on LS throwing around medical diagnoses. If you want to say someone is crazy, then feel free. If you want to say someone is a selfish ass, that is ok. But don't diagnose.

 

I am sorry you grew up with a mother like that. I have six kids. They lost their grandmother a year ago. I can't imagine how awful your mother is for your kids to willingly walk away.

[truncated]

I'd be somewhat lerry of painting every mm/mw as a narcisist.

 

If some are basing this decisionof whether one is a narcisist on the notion that they feel entitled to have what they wnat inspite of who it hurts, know that they are hurting someone else and simly don't care enough to let that stop them, then couldn't that also apply to om/ow? Are they also all narcisists?

[truncated]

So I am either a narcissist or a sociopath? Every person who has ever had an affair is a narcissist or a sociopath? And you know this because you got your degree in Psychiatry from where?

 

Is your wife a narcissist or a sociopath? Have you had her properly diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is she in counseling for one of these disorders? If not, how do you know it won't happen again?

 

The generalizations thrown around on here by people who have a WS are incredible. There is no single reason why affairs happen. If someone analyzed why and how they happened, I am sure there would be at least 10 reasons, but most likely hundreds. But in a BS mind, the reason why their WS had an affair is mental illness. No other reason than that. There was never ever a problem in the relationship, everything was rainbows and puppy dogs, but their spouse still cheated. I do not see things nearly so black and white and maybe that is because I am the cheater. There seem to be a lot of BS on here ready to crucify any WS they can find. They need to take out their anger someplace and this is a veritable stomping ground of cheaters to pounce on.

 

I know I too will be crucified for posting this. I am not claiming that cheaters are saints (obviously we are not), but neither are we all villains, heathens, people without conscious, or people with mental disorders or some other major character flaws. Oh and my other favorite, we are cheaters so obviously we are ALL going to be serial cheaters and do this again and again so we can NEVER be trusted. I love that one.

 

DKT3, I certainly hope that you don't think any of those things about your wife. We cannot possibly all be terrible, vile human beings. I know the attacks will not end. If a cheater posts, there will be good advice, bad advice and attacks on their character. Cheaters beware!

 

Possibly, just possibly, affairs happen because the relationship/marriage is ill, it is a symptom of a troubled relationship, not due to some mental disorder the WS has. Affairs do not occur in a vacuum.

 

 

Actually, unless I am mistaken, the person who originaly asked the question about whether all mm/mw are narcisits was an ow. Take up your argument with them.

[Mal78]

Mal, I would certainly not ever take away from you the fact that you feel your mother is batsh+t. I was just using it as an example because I tire of everyone on LS throwing around medical diagnoses. If you want to say someone is crazy, then feel free. If you want to say someone is a selfish ass, that is ok. But don't diagnose.

 

I am sorry you grew up with a mother like that. I have six kids. They lost their grandmother a year ago. I can't imagine how awful your mother is for your kids to willingly walk away.

 

Thank for the kind words and validation.

 

I too do get annoyed when the word is thrown around as I wholeheartly know the pain of Narc Abuse. It is a spectrum disorder so I also believe that most if not everyone has some characteristics of Narcisism. The disorder is so broad and complex that we can relate to something in ourselves or others.

 

When we are hurt and betrayed by those we are close to we often look for reasons/answers/diagnosis that would explain why they did these things to us. We need to find answers and learn (through research) what makes them tick.

 

This is how we validate for ourselves that it's not us/me. I did nothing wrong to deserve such treatment. Infidelity is one of those scenario in which we try to find validation.

 

SO many WS's fits the bill on what seems to be a never ending list of Narcisistic traits. Too many on the list to count and huge comfort in that list finding validation.

[goodyblue]

Some do, some do not have many traits. However, I will agree that there seem to be a bit larger number of men with narcissistic traits than the general population. Some MM just have a sense of entitlement.

 

But I can certainly understand and appreciate your point.

[7andcounting]

 

OP, I think you want answers to the why's. Why did he cheat on his wife with you? Why did he lie to her, to you? What was the point in it all? Yes, you accept your role in it, but that doesn't mean you don't want to figure out what he hoped to gain in it all or why he acted the way he did.

 

I will say this.. if you truly think he has NPD... you are much better off for not being with him. Eventually you'll stop asking why he did what he did and focus more on yourself. Why did you allow it and what will you do to ensure that it never happens again. That's the more important question... and a hard question to answer all around for people involved in these triangles.

 

Raena,

 

I think you nailed my post. I have been reading. I didn't go into the affair knowing I was having an affair. It didn't come about until months later.

 

I stayed in the relationship and believed the lies for far longer then I should have. There is never justification but I just look at the information on NPD and think that is what was suffering at the hands of.

 

The multiple partners, what was learned, lies, manipulation... All of it.

 

I, for the life of me cant figure out why I allowed it. I have always been very strong. I loved him though, there was a comfort in him....

 

I don't think I need closure, but I look and think about the pain that has been put on so many people... How can a person with feelings do this to other people.

 

In the end it doesn't matter. I was just thinking out loud.

 

I am sorry for the debate that was created. I was very general in my statements. I don't mean everyone in an A is a narcissist... It was a broad statement.

[Poppy47]

I was an OW and often wondered if I had a personality disorder. The affair was the oddest thing I ever did, so maybe not.

 

It seems to me that the entitlement aspect of a person's character must be present to get into an affair. ( Exceptions ... being unaware of the AP being married). It doesn't seem apparent to me that all people who engage in affairs have to be N.

 

It's too easy to make generalisations. Personality disorders are complex and there is a lot of information on the internet that might or might not be correct.

Poppy.