Recalcitrant WSs

[merrmeade]

There've been a spate of posts in recent months about WSs who become guarded, mistrustful, defensive, withdrawn, closed or otherwise removed from the reconciliation process. The BS in the R generally seems to be still dealing with fallout from the A.

 

This week I had a breakthrough at IC. In another thread, I wrote:

One thing is becoming clear. That is, without purging myself of the anger and grief, I'll never be free. That sh-tstorm of emotions that glum to a BS from Dday onwards, right or wrong, a BS owns them, and they cannot be sublimated, ignored, swept under the rug or redefined. Those who burn couches and go crazy are better off in the long run. I can't imagine it's not true for most of us consumed with a stunted R or recalcitrant WS. Personally, I'm shifting my focus from fixing us to finding myself again, but first I've got 2-1/2 years worth of anger to ignite and grief to shed.

So I'm wondering about this, the "stunted R or recalcitrant WS." If the BS is still dealing with unresolved stuff from the A after a few years, what happens to the WS? Does the motivation of remorse become weak as the A recedes into the past? Do they get tired and impatient with BS 'issues'? Does WS start bridling against carrying the blame and shame? Do they feel the need to protect themselves or instead withdraw? Do they rebel against being at fault?

[autumnnight]

I guess one could choose to view it that way.

And a spouse who is waiting for the score to even or for the WS to "get theirs" is never going to be satisfied. I hear the time frame 2-5 years thrown around a lot. If a WS has worked their butt of for 2-5 years and the BS is still waiting for the score to even, then there is something wrong besides the A.

 

That said, a WS who expects it to all be "over" in a few months is fooling themselves and needs to up their commitment.

Edited February 6, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[JohnAdams]

Some items may remain unresolved, maybe for years, maybe forever. The question is can both the BS and WS move forward with the relationship. Perhaps the relationship will never be the same, maybe the relationship will become stronger than ever. But, a BS trying to even the score will only hamper the reconciliation process.

Edited February 6, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Red123]

I think that if one wants to even the score than maybe reconciliation isn't the best route. The only thing that would make them even is if the BS goes on to cheat. If that's the case than what's the point IMO.

[Selfish]

Keeping score never helps a marriage. It really doesn't help any relationship. If a personality type desires/demands retribution and tit for tat it may be a personality that will have a difficult road when attempting reconciliation. If a personality is not one to keep score or track then that sort of issue (being even) isn't on their mind. Not to say it doesn't enter their thoughts it just isn't at the level of all consuming.

 

I know one reason our reconciliation was smoother was my husband is not a dweller or a score keeper. In any areas of his life.

[drifter777]

I too would like to hear from WS's that have been trying to reconcile for years but things are still unresolved. Are you willing to keep trying as long as it takes? Do you hate your BS for not just getting over it? Somewhere in between? Do you just accept that your relationship has been forever damaged and make the best out of your situation?

Edited February 6, 2015 by drifter777

[merrmeade]

Oh dear, forget the shorthand "even the score." No, no, no, that's not what I mean. Not literally. That's cold-hearted, manipulative and plotting. Not the idea at all and I can't imagine the BS doing that anyway. I'll ask moderation to remove that phrase from the title.

 

I'm not that good at identifying patterns, but I'll try again with one side observation beforehand. A pattern I am also becoming more aware of is how much many of us read our own issues into the BS, WS and AP roles and make assumptions about how things are in others' situations. It's important to be clear. I guess I wasn't because I have a hard time imagining the perfect WS who has "worked their butt off for 2-5 years" or a cold-hearted BS merely "waiting for the score to even." No. That as NOT the idea.

 

Drifter did a much better job:

I too would like to hear from WS's that have been trying to reconcile for years but things are still unresolved. Are you willing to keep trying as long as it takes? Do you hate your BS for not just getting over it? Somewhere in between? Do you just accept that your relationship has been forever damaged and make the best out of your situation?

That says exactly what I was thinking.

 

There's another dimension to this. I mean all the books say that the WS should be patient and understanding and not have expectations about when the BS should "get over it." I feel like my H was motivated because he felt so bad in the beginning. But feeling bad about yourself is not viable or desirable long-term. I needed more empathy than shame and didn't that much out of it as a fallback response. It also doesn't seem to be 'true' remorse. His shame does not satisfy my need for support, touch, reassurance, comfort for one thing and I think after a while must begin to chafe. It's certainly couldn't be motivating for him and, of course, who would want to stay there.

 

Things are still unresolved, and he listens but doesn't respond as before. He seems to resent that he still has to engage with me about it, says he thinks it will never be over. This is not someone who worked his butt off for 2.5 years, but did the best he could when I was really in distress. Now, he's started backing off. Really does not realize that the A still has an effect on me.

Edited February 6, 2015 by merrmeade

[Sticky Fingers]

Those emotions are so intertwined with your husband's image that he and them are almost indistinguishable. Until you acknowledge that your husband and the emotions of anger and grief are separate entities, you will continue experiencing them. You must make a conscious effort to immediately identify them when they rear their ugly heads and tell yourself that they are not your husband. Constant practice will eventually help purge them from you and then you will be free to move on with your life, married or not.

[Ralph79]

Oh dear, forget the shorthand "even the score." No, no, no, that's not what I mean. Not literally. That's cold-hearted, manipulative and plotting. Not the idea at all and I can't imagine the BS doing that anyway. I'll ask moderation to remove that phrase from the title.

 

I'm not that good at identifying patterns, but I'll try again with one side observation beforehand. A pattern I am also becoming more aware of is how much many of us read our own issues into the BS, WS and AP roles and make assumptions about how things are in others' situations. It's important to be clear. I guess I wasn't because I have a hard time imagining the perfect WS who has "worked their butt off for 2-5 years" or a cold-hearted BS merely "waiting for the score to even." No. That as NOT the idea.

 

Drifter did a much better job: That says exactly what I was thinking.

 

There's another dimension to this. I mean all the books say that the WS should be patient and understanding and not have expectations about when the BS should "get over it." I feel like my H was motivated because he felt so bad in the beginning. But feeling bad about yourself is not viable or desirable long-term. I needed more empathy than shame and didn't that much out of it as a fallback response. It also doesn't seem to be 'true' remorse. His shame does not satisfy my need for support, touch, reassurance, comfort for one thing and I think after a while must begin to chafe. It's certainly couldn't be motivating for him and, of course, who would want to stay there.

 

Things are still unresolved, and he listens but doesn't respond as before. He seems to resent that he still has to engage with me about it, says he thinks it will never be over. This is not someone who worked his butt off for 2.5 years, but did the best he could when I was really in distress. Now, he's started backing off. Really does not realize that the A still has an effect on me.

 

I think of EA's as an unbalanced tragedy for both parties. The repentant cheater who pleads for forgiveness will never truly understand the pain he caused on his spouse unless he was cheated on too by another at some point. Few cheaters act with the sole purpose of hurting their spouse. The majority act out of temptation, disregarding all risk to everyone involved.

 

I'm going to borrow an excellent analogy made by @Mr. Lucky in another thread:

 

"Let's say a drunk driver crashed into and killed your wife. Would you care why they drank? Would you give them allowances for the child or life traumas that drove them to be an alcoholic? My guess is you'd simply be focused on - and devastated by - the outcome."

 

The cheater is the drunk driver. The BS is the wife's family. No matter the reason, no matter the guilt the driver might feel, the pain is felt immeasurably worse by the wife's family. Nothing will bring back what the Cheater took from the BS. Ever. Sometimes cheaters don't understand that.

 

Now on the flip side. There are cheaters who are genuinely sorry and remorseful. Willing to go beyond mere words to express and prove their regret.

 

There's a story I read that I posted on another thread in which a Man cheats on his wife, gets caught and is willing to do anything on earth to earn his wife's forgiveness. For years he endured humiliation from her in front of his friends, of his children and his own family. He accepted the punishment. His wife treated him like a peasant in his own home and he never lashed back. He lovingly took care of his family after his affair. Many years later on their 20th anniversary his wife said "I forgive you".

 

The husband then looked at his wife and responded: "No... You don't get to forgive me anymore. I earned my redemption, we're even". And the husband left her for good this time.

 

I believe that those who were able to truly to forgive their spouses infidelities and repair their marriage did so because they believed the foundation of their marriage, the family bonds they built over the years were worth fighting for. Not so much to turn a spouse into an obedient puppy.

 

If your spouse was rude and neglectful to you prior to the affair, you shouldn't expect him to permanently change just because he's sorry. Those marriages aren't worth saving. Also some infidelities (probably most) don't merit forgiveness.

 

But it's really up to how you feel about the relationship that was, and your peace of mind.

[autumnnight]

I mean all the books say that the WS should be patient and understanding and not have expectations about when the BS should "get over it."

 

I think that past a few years, this becomes unrealistic. No matter what a book says, I do not believe any author means a BS gets carte blanch to keep a WS in penance limbo indefinitely.

[katielee]

meermeade - this helped me understand a lot. i don't know how you separate your anger from your husband. how it can be done? This is where I'm stuck too. The affairs were one thing. But the resulting ripples in the pool.... if one has to get to a place where there is trigger after trigger and you have to say to yourself, "it is what it is." I can't do it yet.

 

"Most offenses we face in life, such as hurtful words or something stolen, are one-time events, but infidelity carries an additional element. The challenge of forgiving infidelity stems from the fact that it’s not just a one-time event; like that rock thrown into still waters, the impact of betrayal expands in ever widening circles. That’s why a critical aspect of forgiving infidelity has to include an agreement to accept the ongoing consequences of your mate’s betrayal. Each time an intrusive thought interrupts a good moment it’s another consequence. Just the mention of the affair partner’s name can be another consequence. Anniversary dates present painful reminders creating yet other consequences. A call or text from the affair partner is another consequence. Even when your marriage is transformed into what you’ve always wanted, betrayal’s consequences continue interrupting your life"

[Mrs. John Adams]

When I had my affair...after I confessed....I said to John...I understand that you have to do what is best for you.

 

That meant...I let him make the decision...which is only fair since I did not ask his opinion before I cheated. I took his choice away.

 

He decided we would stay together. I immediately became transparent...I hid nothing....I answered every question.

 

I will be the first to admit....years down the road...every fall near the time of my affair...he would trigger. I felt he was punishing me....and I would cry and tell him how sorry I was. I did not understand why he could not get over it. Not once did I say... I am done with this....but every year I gave him the same offer...I will leave if you want me to. Every year he said...I don't want you to leave.

 

He searched...he read articles and books...all without my knowledge. He needed something I was not giving him.....but he could not verbalize it...and I certainly did not know.

Thirty years later...he had found a way to tell me....and I was able to give him what he was looking for.

 

My point is....neither of us have given up on the other one. We were happy....and we loved each other...and it was a good marriage....but there was this nagging thing that kept him from having a kind of closure...that kept him from being able to fully forgive.

 

So how much time does it take? How long are you willing to keep at it? I guess each individual couple has to answer that question for themselves. We would have continued til death I have no doubt. But I rejoice that we finally found what he was looking for. It reestablished something very special in our relationship....

[katielee]

what was it MRs. John Adams?

[Mrs. John Adams]

Remorse....not just being sorry for what I had done...feeling in the depths of my soul HIS pain....the pain that I caused.

 

He needed to know that I understood how much he hurt and that I was the one responsible for that pain.

 

Until he was convinced that I took that pain...he feared I did not understand how deeply I had hurt him and that I might do it again.

 

Once he could see that I understood...he could let it go....knowing that I hurt too.

[badkarma2013]

Some items may remain unresolved, maybe for years, maybe forever. The question is can both the BS and WS move forward with the relationship. Perhaps the relationship will never be the same, maybe the relationship will become stronger than ever. But, a BS trying to even the score will only hamper the reconciliation process.

 

 

******************************************************************

 

Mr Adams, I so agree..Some things may never be resolved...and most of the time the relationship will never be the same...You and Mrs.Adams and the love you have shown to her have been able to stay together...I do not think you relationship is the same...your D-DAY changed you and your marriage forever...different now maybe better but never the same...

 

I think of you guys as a great anomoliy i will never understand...be that as it may...It is a honor to know someone who withstood great pain and angst and made it...

 

 

I would like to expound on this...there are many here who go into R and at the time of their D-DAY...they KNOW they will never get over the sex,lies,the betrayal...etc...Inside they KNOW they will never let the Affair go...and they realize this at time of R but go forward anyway...

 

Those who have been there WS or BS i would like to hear from you...I think there are more of these types of R? than true attempts to make it work..

 

Autumnight posted ( paraphrasing it) "after years of R ..the pain and angst is still there for either BS or WS...someone needs to man up ,accept what happened and move forward.. or GET out...

 

Simple and I so agree...

[katielee]

******************************************************************

 

 

 

 

Autumnight posted ( paraphrasing it) "after years of R ..the pain and angst is still there for either BS or WS...someone needs to man up ,accept what happened and move forward.. or GET out...

 

Simple and I so agree...

 

I agree and I include myself in this. Had I known how hard it would be and how much I would have to forgive, not sure I would have made the same decision.

[Mrs. John Adams]

It so saddens me to know there are those who are less fortunate than I. I am so grateful for the gift I have been given.

 

Bad karma...you are correct...we are forever changed....as individuals and as a couple. In some ways...bad but believe it or not...in some ways good.

 

We never take each other for granted...we never stay mad at each other...we always put the other one first. A day does not go by that we don't make sure the other one knows how much they are loved and appreciated. We never allow doubt about the other one to creep in. We discuss everything...and we remain transparent to each other.

 

When you almost lose each other...but are restored....you truly value what you have.

[badkarma2013]

I agree and I include myself in this. Had I known how hard it would be and how much I would have to forgive, not sure I would have made the same decision.

 

I understand ....I knew ,I absolutely could not and would not forget it ever, and would always trigger and hold on to the A......

 

I filed for D and it has been the best for me..

[autumnnight]

I agree and I include myself in this. Had I known how hard it would be and how much I would have to forgive, not sure I would have made the same decision.

 

Since your H having one more A than you is so painful, do you think if you went out and had one more so the score would be 2/2 you would feel better?

[badkarma2013]

Since your H having one more A than you is so painful, do you think if you went out and had one more so the score would be 2/2 you would feel better?

 

Jesus Christ..Autumn..Affairs are why everyone here is a Fu*king wreck...

 

Having another will do what...make her feel better..Did it before??? NO

 

Thats like saying " you have broken both of my legs so I am going to break your other leg so mine will quit hurting.." Really.. What kind of logic is that?

 

How about this ...' I can no longer live with a liar and someone who continues to betray me.. I have filed for Divorce ...have a good life...Goodbye....

 

“Revenge, the sweetest morsel to the mouth that ever was cooked in hell.”

 

Never works out the way we think...

[Mrs. John Adams]

I know that johns ra only caused more hurt...no good came of it...none at all.

Healing comes from remorse not revenge.

[elaine567]

There's a story I read that I posted on another thread in which a Man cheats on his wife, gets caught and is willing to do anything on earth to earn his wife's forgiveness. For years he endured humiliation from her in front of his friends, of his children and his own family. He accepted the punishment. His wife treated him like a peasant in his own home and he never lashed back. He lovingly took care of his family after his affair. Many years later on their 20th anniversary his wife said "I forgive you".

 

The husband then looked at his wife and responded: "No... You don't get to forgive me anymore. I earned my redemption, we're even". And the husband left her for good this time.

 

Perhaps he should have left 20 years ago and saved himself 20 years of punishment and his wife should have kicked him out instead of spending 20 years treating him like a peasant.

That was not healthy place for her to be. She could have spent 1-2 years grieving her old relationship then found a new man and had a happy life, instead of spending 20 years essentially hating the cheater and treating him badly.

[autumnnight]

Jesus Christ..Autumn..Affairs are why everyone here is a Fu*king wreck...

 

Having another will do what...make her feel better..Did it before??? NO

 

Thats like saying " you have broken both of my legs so I am going to break your other leg so mine will quit hurting.." Really.. What kind of logic is that?

 

How about this ...' I can no longer live with a liar and someone who continues to betray me.. I have filed for Divorce ...have a good life...Goodbye....

 

“Revenge, the sweetest morsel to the mouth that ever was cooked in hell.”

 

Never works out the way we think...

 

For the record, I think it's a terrible idea. But even though she cheated first his 2nd one seems to be a sticking point, so I just w ondered.

[Ralph79]

Perhaps he should have left 20 years ago and saved himself 20 years of punishment and his wife should have kicked him out instead of spending 20 years treating him like a peasant.

That was not healthy place for her to be. She could have spent 1-2 years grieving her old relationship then found a new man and had a happy life, instead of spending 20 years essentially hating the cheater and treating him badly.

 

Well yes. That is essentially the moral of the story.

[katielee]

since your h having one more a than you is so painful, do you think if you went out and had one more so the score would be 2/2 you would feel better?

 

not.in.the.least!

 

not only do I not want to do that, I would be betraying my own values that I solidified after my affair. And I will never stab him in the back again.

Edited February 6, 2015 by katielee
added a paragraph.