Rework of Recalcitrant WS thread...

[merrmeade]

Trying again. I'll take the blame for not starting off with a clear focus on the previous thread. I took some license to create a coherent picture of what I've seen and heard from my own situation or gleaned on LS, though as usual it's too long. <Link to thread>

 

 

I'm interested in what happens to the WS, who's hoping for normalization even more than reconciliation. Of course, I realize that what I describe below begs the question of 'true remorse' and, therefore, genuine reconciliation, but just as there are Rs that fall other places than a 10 on a 1-10 scale (0 being divorce/no contact and 10 being ideal reconciliation), there are BSs not fully healed and WSs less than ideally remorseful and empathic, both still trying to make a go of it together.

 

At some point, this discussion will move into whatever the next forum is, but for now I am wondering about what happens to WSs and those still struggling with the fallout from infidelity, especially during the transition period. Not that this describes every WS by any means. I write this as a BS that accepts the limitations and short-sightedness of this type of WS, one who truly believes he has been trying and doing his best.

 

Assuming there is no contact between the AP and WS after Dday...

The

WS

may have been enjoying two versions of reality before Dday but on that day is suddenly bolted out of the illicit version and forced to deal with hard, deep life questions that the

BS

begins to put to him. I assume that this is usually not the

WS

's need or choice, but a necessity resulting from the

BS

's reaction. The

WS

goes into this deep examination with and for the sake of the

BS

, if at all, and not because his (her) own universe has been shaken to the core or requires a reassessment of the

WS

's place in it.

 

The

WS

may fully accept his culpability for causing the

BS

pain and wants to provide answers that satisfy and calm the

BS

, since it's been said that's necessary for healing. Yet perhaps the

WS

does not provide all the information about every incident or every infidelity. Maybe there are other people — friends, relatives — to be protected. Maybe the

WS

just thinks that what's already out is enough, since there's been

so

much hurt, volatility and pain. For whatever reason, the truth comes out slowly, bits and pieces at a time over the course of many months. Then, just when the

WS

thinks that every single betrayal has been confessed, something else is discovered or revealed that the

WS

hadn't remembered to offer. Of course, once it's discussed the

WS

realizes why the

BS

would feel bad about it, but each time it's like starting over. And each time the

WS

says it really is everything and genuinely believes trust has been earned.

 

In between, deep, painful discussions, endured for the

BS

's sake, are always reminders of incidents and choices that showed weak character and poor judgment on the

WS

's part. Even if the

BS

explains the need to know or understand as the reason for talking about it, the effect on the

WS

is to be reminded of terrible mistakes.

 

The main motivation for the

WS

to participate in these conversations is to finish all such discussions and return to peace and normalcy, but instead they seem to go on and on. Dues have been paid, questions answered and it's unclear what comes from returning to the same issues other than more upheaval. Maybe the

BS

is never going to get over it,

so

after a while it's easier to shut off avenues of reflection, shorten discussions and avoid feeling torn up all the time. The

WS

tries to stay busy, be pleasant and focus on the humdrum, ordinary routines of getting up every day, doing what needs to be done, etc. in hopes of a return to normalcy. Anything for normal.

Is this scenario valid? Do a lot of WSs get to this place of weary resignation, wishing and doubting it will be over? (Does it really just become the BS's job to deal with his/her own issues, even though they were brought on by the discovery of the affair(s) and all the ugly truths this uncovered?)

Edited February 8, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Added thread link for continuity

[purplesorrow]

This is not how it went for us. I would say what you have described is not a true authentic change in the WS. It appears more so to be a way to invoke temporary comfort and to control the outcome that best suits the WS.

 

All I required of my WH was that he move out. He chose to nc the ow on his own. He chose to go to IC on his own and still goes after 2 years. I already had the details I needed from him. Really for my resolve, it was simply enough to know that he did it. He began to really discuss it. He told me things I never would have known nor have been able to find out. He wanted to put it all out there and have no more secrets. I think if the work is real, it looks much different from what you described. The questions evolve over time and so do the answers.

 

Even though we are divorcing, he has not left me alone to deal with it and heal on my own. He says there are pains and hurts he inflicted that he needs to help heal so that the next man doesn't have to pay for it. That helps him to heal. True reconciliation in my opinion is a continuous journey.

Edited February 8, 2015 by purplesorrow

[badkarma2013]

This is not how it went for us. I would say what you have described is not a true authentic change in the WS. It appears more so to be a way to invoke temporary comfort and to control the outcome that best suits the WS.

 

All I required of my WH was that he move out. He chose to nc the ow on his own. He chose to go to IC on his own and still goes after 2 years. I already had the details I needed from him. Really for my resolve, it was simply enough to know that he did it. He began to really discuss it. He told me things I never would have known nor have been able to find out. He wanted to put it all out there and have no more secrets. I think if the work is real, it looks much different from what you described. The questions evolve over time and so do the answers.

 

Even though we are divorcing, he has not left me alone to deal with it and heal on my own. He says there are pains and hurts he inflicted that he needs to help heal so that the next man doesn't have to pay for it. That helps him to heal. True reconciliation in my opinion is a continuous journey.

 

 

*****************************************************************

 

Purplesorrow..Good Morning...

 

I have asked many WWs for the Why..and as may have said ...well they actually could not say..communicated with 80-100 have never gotten a logical answer..ever...as to the why..

 

Be that as it may....did your WH ever tell you the why...and from a BWs perspective..did the details he shared lean your decision to D....

 

I sure here you have seen how many BHs cannot over the details no matter how hard we try ...and most have a false R or file for D asap...

 

I guess BW or BH we ALL share the same Nightmare but react different..

 

I just wanted your take on that aspect of your WHs A...

 

Thanks...Badkarma

Edited February 8, 2015 by badkarma2013

[purplesorrow]

*****************************************************************

 

Purplesorrow..Good Morning...

 

I have asked many WWs for the Why..and as may have said ...well they actually could not say..communicated with 80-100 have never gotten a logical answer..ever...as to the why..

 

Be that as it may....did your WH ever tell you the why...and from a BWs perspective..did the details he shared lean your decision to D....

 

I sure here you have seen how many BHs cannot over the details no matter how hard we try ...and most have a false R or file for D asap...

 

I guess BW or BH we ALL share the same Nightmare but react different..

 

I just wanted your take on that aspect of your WHs A...

 

Thanks...Badkarma

 

He is still figuring out his whys on a deeper level. The more he digs, the deeper he sees how far back the issues in his life go. Right now on the surface, depression over not being as accomplished in his careers, low self esteem. Ours was the first stable home of his entire life. He had never lived in one house or apartment for more than 3 or 4 years before. From a very young age (8) he was left alone to care for his sibling. His mom worked two jobs while his dad was either in jail or chasing skirts. His mom waited for him to decide on her for years.

 

He went looking for a life style he knew. Like his dad, he is very charming. He said he has been a sneaky liar his whole life. He has said he was able to cheat because he had such stability with me. Imagine that! Our relationship gave him the confidence to cheat. He wrongly assumed I would love him through it. Like his mom did. He is now learning boundaries he should have learned early on.

 

I feel like he pretended to be someone else from day one. He was pretending to be who he wanted to be but lacked the skills and capacity. All that pretending came to be too much and he had to let the real him out, in secret of course. I can appreciate what he's done to redeem himself I just don't want to be married right now. This experience has been exhausting and I just want to breathe again.

[badkarma2013]

He is still figuring out his whys on a deeper level. The more he digs, the deeper he sees how far back the issues in his life go. Right now on the surface, depression over not being as accomplished in his careers, low self esteem. Ours was the first stable home of his entire life. He had never lived in one house or apartment for more than 3 or 4 years before. From a very young age (8) he was left alone to care for his sibling. His mom worked two jobs while his dad was either in jail or chasing skirts. His mom waited for him to decide on her for years.

 

He went looking for a life style he knew. Like his dad, he is very charming. He said he has been a sneaky liar his whole life. He has said he was able to cheat because he had such stability with me. Imagine that! Our relationship gave him the confidence to cheat. He wrongly assumed I would love him through it. Like his mom did. He is now learning boundaries he should have learned early on.

 

I feel like he pretended to be someone else from day one. He was pretending to be who he wanted to be but lacked the skills and capacity. All that pretending came to be too much and he had to let the real him out, in secret of course. I can appreciate what he's done to redeem himself I just don't want to be married right now. This experience has been exhausting and I just want to breathe again.

 

I appreciate your taking the time to answer ,but mostly for your honesty...Thank You

[purplesorrow]

I appreciate your taking the time to answer ,but mostly for your honesty...Thank You

 

You're welcome. Like you, I would be interested to hear his why if his journey of digging ever ends. While I understand it on one level, there is no answer that will ever make it ok. He had so many other options.

[merrmeade]

*****************************************************************

 

Purplesorrow..Good Morning...

 

I have asked many WWs for the Why..and as may have said ...well they actually could not say..communicated with 80-100 have never gotten a logical answer..ever...as to the why..

 

Be that as it may....did your WH ever tell you the why...and from a BWs perspective..did the details he shared lean your decision to D....

 

I sure here you have seen how many BHs cannot over the details no matter how hard we try ...and most have a false R or file for D asap...

 

I guess BW or BH we ALL share the same Nightmare but react different..

 

I just wanted your take on that aspect of your WHs A...

 

Thanks...Badkarma

Yes, I feel I do know why. For each one. I think it's true but always give a margin for minimizing, since he did that so many times, but I have put together what he's said with the circumstances and what I've read and it makes sense. It's funny that only two of them included intercourse, one only once. Nobody was told ILY yet the two EAs with PA short of intercourse are the two that get to me the most. Still, none of that is why. Why for him was a lot of things together - because he was promiscuous before marriage, had a super libido, liked flirting and the excitement of the chase, was gorgeous and got hit on constantly, allowed compromising circumstances to escalate, found attention flattering, needed to be admired. These are the same reasons he gives.

[merrmeade]

He is still figuring out his whys on a deeper level. The more he digs, the deeper he sees how far back the issues in his life go. Right now on the surface, depression over not being as accomplished in his careers, low self esteem. Ours was the first stable home of his entire life. He had never lived in one house or apartment for more than 3 or 4 years before. From a very young age (8) he was left alone to care for his sibling. His mom worked two jobs while his dad was either in jail or chasing skirts. His mom waited for him to decide on her for years.

 

He went looking for a life style he knew. Like his dad, he is very charming. He said he has been a sneaky liar his whole life. He has said he was able to cheat because he had such stability with me. Imagine that! Our relationship gave him the confidence to cheat. He wrongly assumed I would love him through it. Like his mom did. He is now learning boundaries he should have learned early on.

 

I feel like he pretended to be someone else from day one. He was pretending to be who he wanted to be but lacked the skills and capacity. All that pretending came to be too much and he had to let the real him out, in secret of course. I can appreciate what he's done to redeem himself I just don't want to be married right now. This experience has been exhausting and I just want to breathe again.

I didn't really take this in the first time. On rereading, I see similarities and suppose it's only a matter of degree how much narcissism is a factor in many WS's multiple infidelities.

 

More disparate facts:

• Childhood most definitely must be a factor. For my H, I know that he used to be bitter about his mother's lack of nurturing. Two sisters, 10 and 8 years older, pretty much reared him, especially as an infant and toddler. The father was abusive and beat him. He was never good enough. He was born with phenomenal good looks and physique, a f--king curse to his future marriage. When he was 15, a friend of his mother's seduced him à la Mrs. Robinson.
  
• He was quietly charming. He and his college friend were promiscuous, often 'scoring' together.
  
• We met senior year, moved in together, thought we "had" to get married. Turned out otherwise but we stayed married - so great start (not). A year later, he was in graduate school, said he had to stay at school at night to finish projects. Found out 30 years later it was his first affair after we were married.
  
• He lies at the drop of a hat, has absolutely no personal issue with lying, does it for convenience or when the truth is worse. If a family member asks him not to tell me something, he complies.
  

[Selfish]

I never wanted "it to be just done" but I did strongly fall into despair that I could not undo what I did.

 

I do think there are BS who are not cut out for reconciliation despite how remorseful their wayward is. And they will look and amplify and pick at flaws because the wound of the affair was too deep.

 

But, i think it is more common for ws not to be fully remorseful or perhaps incapable of being fully humbled by their actions. Trickle truth is a self protection but it also can be to protect the BS too. It goes against the pattern the affair set up to give out the full truth. There were things in my affair I very much didn't want my husband to know. Terrible things. But when I decided to get honest I had put enough research in to know to "get honest". So I told all. And I did tell the "good" and the "bad" (good being no sex or sexual things in anything we owned or anywhere he frequented)

 

I have heard it read that everytime a trickle truth happens it resets the clock on reconciliation. Makes sense to me. It reopens the wound, plants more distrust and basically undoes any good done up until that point because you didn't have all the facts yet. And it leaves you with the feeling of "what else". A feeling that because of trickle truth for some never goes away.

 

I think it is possible you have a spouse who doesn't get it. And it isn't in his personality to learn and search for answers and try to understand. Nothing you can do will help him get it. You can't make someone forgive and you can't make someone truly remorseful. Shame tactics suggested often don't bring true remorsefulnes out and neither does niceness.

 

You just have to ask yourself if this is what YOU want. If You want to give more time or if you want to move on.

[purplesorrow]

I didn't really take this in the first time. On rereading, I see similarities and suppose it's only a matter of degree how much narcissism is a factor in many WS's multiple infidelities.

 

More disparate facts:

• Childhood most definitely must be a factor. For my H, I know that he used to be bitter about his mother's lack of nurturing. Two sisters, 10 and 8 years older, pretty much reared him, especially as an infant and toddler. The father was abusive and beat him. He was never good enough. He was born with phenomenal good looks and physique, a f--king curse to his future marriage. When he was 15, a friend of his mother's seduced him à la Mrs. Robinson.
  
• He was quietly charming. He and his college friend were promiscuous, often 'scoring' together.
  
• We met senior year, moved in together, thought we "had" to get married. Turned out otherwise but we stayed married - so great start (not). A year later, he was in graduate school, said he had to stay at school at night to finish projects. Found out 30 years later it was his first affair after we were married.
  
• He lies at the drop of a hat, has absolutely no personal issue with lying, does it for convenience or when the truth is worse. If a family member asks him not to tell me something, he complies.
  

 

The lying was a big hurdle for him. He did get to a place where if he lied, he would come back and correct it and apologize. He said i can't imagine how much better he feels about himself that he has worked through all of these negative traits that he himself hated. He has made real changes and I am very proud of him. It shows in other areas, much better father son and brother. He is also doing great in his career.

[gettingstronger]

We both want it to be done but its hard- we handle things differently- he can compartmentalize his shame and remorse and I have a hard time hold back my pain and disappointment- I think his ability to compartmentalize made it easier for him to have an A while my inability to do so makes it harder to get past it-

 

I know he wishes I could be more like him and just push it down deep but he is fully available to me when I can not-I used to worry that I would push him away and he would throw in the towel because I am such a downer sometimes, but I don't worry about it any longer-if he can not handle the fall out, I don't want to be with him-

 

Has he resigned himself to a lifetime of this- I don't think so because we are both actively working and hoping for a day when it doesn't matter so much- we both believe we will get there-

[merrmeade]

We both want it to be done but its hard- we handle things differently- he can compartmentalize his shame and remorse and I have a hard time hold back my pain and disappointment- I think his ability to compartmentalize made it easier for him to have an A while my inability to do so makes it harder to get past it-

 

I know he wishes I could be more like him and just push it down deep but he is fully available to me when I can not-I used to worry that I would push him away and he would throw in the towel because I am such a downer sometimes, but I don't worry about it any longer-if he can not handle the fall out, I don't want to be with him-

 

Has he resigned himself to a lifetime of this- I don't think so because we are both actively working and hoping for a day when it doesn't matter so much- we both believe we will get there-

I relate to paragraph 1, part of 2, but 3? I'm just happy for you and accept.