New Here-My Story---> I am both a WS and BS

[LoveNoLoss]

I met my husband in late 1996 in Arizona while I was a bartender and he was in a band. He was married to someone else when I met him (Red Flag #1). He divorced her and married me in Dec of 97. I was convinced that he was the one. Looking at how we met, I should have known what was to come.

Within the first year of our marriage, I found out that he was having an emotional affair with another woman. I was in his office one day in front of his computer helping him with some work (he was a professor at a university for his day job). All of a sudden, an instant message came in. I was reluctant but for some reason I was compelled to open it up. What I saw rocked my world. It simply read "I just wanted to say, I LOVE YOU" (Red Flag #2) I was shocked and horrified. When he returned from the bathroom, I started yelling and crying. I demanded that he tell me who she was. He told me it was some woman that I didn't know. He said he was surprised that she would ever say such a thing because they were only friends. I didn't believe him of course.

 

I kicked him out of the apartment for a couple of days. He begged to come back and swore that he would never do this again. We tried some marriage counseling but we really didn't like our counselor. We managed to work through it all but I never REALLY dealt with it. I managed to tuck it away somewhere in my mind. The next couple of years the topic came up and he swore to me that they never did anything sexual and that they only talked. She was married with two kids and he had met her because she would come to his gigs.

 

In May of 2000 we moved to Oregon. My husband joined a new band a few months later. About a year later, my husband left one weekend as he always did. He was gone 3 to 4 weekends out of a month playing and traveling in a band. His music always took priority over me. That weekend he had left open his Yahoo email. I proceeded to check it (I didn't trust him at this point) and I had found recent emails to the same woman back in Arizona. They exchanged a few I miss you's and he pretty much was just telling her what was going on in his life.(Red Flag #3) I started shaking and crying. I couldn't believe he would do this again after all he put me through a few years ago.

When he got home from that weekend, I confronted him. He had nothing to say this time. I told him if he ever did this to me again, I would divorce him. He just hung his head low and took my berating. Honestly, from that point on, something had changed in me. The thing that really gets me is at that point, he had already slept with two different girls and I didn't know it. A few years later....

 

Now my story starts. I started working at a large company after I graduated from college. (Went back later in life to finish my degree) I met a man at work last year in March. Didn’t think much of it until we started talking at a work offsite function…. We talked on occasions and he knew I was married. After a few months went by we had another function, I drove him home and that was when I felt something. I had never felt this feeling for anyone since I had been married. It took over my thinking and my life. I started feeling attraction. He worked 40 feet away from me and I would see him walking around, it became apparent that I was beginning to fall for this guy. There were small exchanges. One day he gave me a CD to borrow.. I thought that was odd. Then one day he asked me to lunch. That is when it all started. He was telling me that he was going to take a job offer across the country… I felt horrified. I felt I couldn’t let him go. What I did is unspeakable. I thought LONG and hard about it. I decided to ask him to take a trip with me for a weekend before he left town. It was the damndest craziest thing I had ever done. The entire weekend before, I spent with horrid stomach pains… I felt guilt and knew that I was about to cheat on my husband. I asked him, and he was shocked. We went to the beach for the weekend and I had an affair. My brain was in another land… but I KNEW that I was going to have to tell my husband because the guilt was making me so physically sick that I couldn’t function. I was prepared for any consequences that were to happen to me.

 

I decided to gather my head and prepare to tell my husband. Just before I was going to reveal my affair, I just happened to be checking the cell phone bill on line because I was feeling guilty about his number appearing. Now, mind you I NEVER checked the cell phone bill ever…. This was the ONLY bill he chose to pay himself. Odd isn't it? But my own guilt revealed my husband’s double life.

What I found on the cell bill was a horrible shock. I found several suspicious numbers that were called ONLY when he was not with me. The numbers went 5 months back were all hours of the night on the weekends when he was gone. I proceeded to filter them all according to number called. I decided to investigate the one that was called the most. Since it was cell phone number, I couldn't do a reverse look up so I paid some money to an agency and within 4 hours I had the name and home address. It was a woman's name that I had never heard of. The following day at work, I called her and spoke with her. I asked her who she was and what her relationship to my husband was. All she could say was, "you need to talk to your husband about this" Well, that was all I needed to hear from her. The same day I called another suspicious number. This particular girl said they were "just friends" and she and her boyfriend would come and see the band. Little did I know, he slept with her too.

 

When I got home from work, I confronted my husband. I told him that I knew what he was doing and to pack his stuff and get out. He started sobbing like a baby and said "why can't I have friends that are girls that you don't know about?" That is still one of my all time favorite lines ever. He now admits this sentence is crazy and this is when he is was in a fog.

 

There were 2 more D-day's to come. All in all, over the years, my husband had a total of 7 affairs. One of them was an emotional affair (the first one) and the rest physical affairs. At one point he had 3 affairs going on at the same time. One in particular went on for about 2 years. He also had a one night stand as well as sleeping with a girl from his old workplace. Actually, they hooked up AFTER she moved back home to Salt Lake City during one of his weekends with the band there. Another girl I knew from our "circle of friends" and another one he had the audacity to introduce me to over the 4th of July holiday at a music festival.

 

I found out slowly about all these women. He never admitted to any of it unless I uncovered it first. The only reason I knew all these women is a couple of months later I called the same woman I called before and she said she would tell me all I wanted to know. SHE knew who he slept with!! ARGH!

His therapist told him that he must admit EVERYTHING to me and one day we were in the car on a 3 hour trip and he told me everything that he had done to me in our 8 year marriage. He even told me details of the first affair he had. He was always reluctant until that day to tell me. That was only an emotional affair. The rest were all physical.

He was an EXCELLENT liar. He could come home and be the most affectionate husband in the world. He was attentive, caring and thoughtful. We hardly ever argued and really enjoyed our time together. Crazy huh? No, I didn't know he was doing all this behind my back. I had some suspicions but I thought I was just being a paranoid wife. I let him run around with bands our entire marriage. I never denied him his freedom. But he chose to exploit it and take advantage of me. I never dreamed that he would cheat on me so many times. How does one do this for 8 years and be such a good liar?? Guilt anyone??? Where was the mechanism that kicks in and says, "I am so disgusted with myself, how could I do this to the woman I love?" I know that I felt guilt about my affair....but he had been doing it as a way of LIFE??

 

This takes me to my next thoughts. I am currently in therapy and my therapist believes he is a sexual narcissist. These people can somehow compartmentalize their actions. They can have sex with one woman and come home to their wives without an ounce of guilt. They separate the two. They believe these women are "objects" to be used. Something to be conquered. They do it for validation of who they are as a person. There are only whores and wives and nothing in between.

 

I have been shattered to the bone. Everything I once knew... The world as I know it is gone. I don't trust a soul.. Not even my family, friends, boss... you name it. I am working very hard to get my life back together. Currently, my husband is in therapy and is trying to work on his issues... He wants me back and wants to make this marriage work. But I don't know how I could ever look at him the same again. All I see are these women when I look at him. I on the other hand am still seeing this person. He lives across the country and we don’t see each other much. He wants me to move there at the end of the year. I won't lie... He has been amazing to me throughout this nightmare...

 

I believe there is too much damage. I have been in therapy myself and I KNOW why I had an affair. What I didn’t realize was that finding out about my husband’s affair early in our marriage killed something in me. He never wanted to deal with it and always shoved in under the rug. For me, I lacked trust in him… SOMETHING had died. Hence, I had an affair.. I know it was wrong and my advice to anyone is DON’T DO IT. In my case, had I not had an affair, I would still be sitting here not knowing about my husband’s life. So, there is a part of me that feels this affair was a god send.

 

My husband and his therapist are looking at self esteem issues to be the cause. I really don’t understand how self esteem makes you a life long cheater??? We live separate but are still in contact. He wants to straighten his life out because he has been a life long cheater and doesn’t know why. My therapist believes that he is hardwired for infidelity because he has been doing it his whole life. My husband wants nothing more than to get his s*hit together and rebuild this marriage. Me? Only time will tell…

 

If you made it this far…thanks for reading.. I know … what a mess. I hope I can hang out with you guys… please don’t slander me for my affair.. I KNOW it was wrong.. but my situation is unique and there are not too many boards for me on the internet.

[d'Arthez]

First of all I won't comment on the affair. You know what to think of your affair, and it seems you have a healthy perspective on things and your mistakes.

 

Second of all, if your husband is a narcissist of any kind, you must take into account the statistics.

It is a very serious personality disorder, and chances of recovery are existant, but slim, even if he is truly interested in changing. I don't have accurate statistics available for the US, so I can't give you exact percentages. But it won't be a matter of weeks, but of months and most likely years. And results cannot be guaranteed at all.

 

A lot of damage has been done to you, so it is impossible to restart your marriage, even if he would be cured. You have a lot of issues because of his behavior, and the thought that your husband thought of women as sexual object for 8 years does not make it easier for you to save the marriage.

 

He may have self esteem issues, but that does not excuse his behavior. It can only EXPLAIN, not JUSTIFY.

Just like drunkenness can explain why I had a car accident. I cannot justify the car accident by referring to my drunkenness, can I?

 

And how would you look at your husband? And your husband at you? Indeed, that would be a miserable situation for the both of you.

 

Frankly the best thing for you and your own sanity seems to be for you to divorce him. So the both of you can rebuild your lifes.

 

Added: Don't make the mistake to move directly for that other person, if you are divorced. Even though you may have lost the rose colored glasses, reality could be different with him, than you might still imagine. So proceed with a bit of caution, if you want to try something with him.

[LoveNoLoss]

HI D,

 

It's funny because I kinda laughed when you said I have issues from what he has done to me. I never believed I would have this many issues in my life. Yes, while I had AN affair, it appears the reasons for mine are easier to wrap one's brain around it. I think there are huge differences between someone that is a serial cheater and someone who has an affair due to problems or unmet needs.

 

The prognosis for serial cheaters is dim at best. His therapist doesn't like "labels" so narcissist will never come up. They say true Narcissist's don't have remorse. WHile my husband appears to have remorse, I don't know if it is TRUE remorse. I mean, what keeps someone cheating on their partner the entire time? I question whether he really understands the magnitude of what he did to me with so many affairs. He claims to this day that he always loved me and still does with all of his heart. He has said that while he can "conciously that he won't cheat again, he says he is working on it to make it a subconcious thing" I am amazed at his insight at times but that doesn't mean he won't battle wanting to be with other women for the rest of his life. He has quit the band and has become quite reclusive since all this... From all appearances, it seems he WANTS to change... but can he is another thing all together.

[tanbark813]

LNL, I get the impression from your posts that you're hoping your husband has some kind of official mental issue, like "sexual narcissism" so you can use that for yourself to lessen your own pain and have something to point to. I understand the motivation for that, but should you really be making excuses for him? Sending emails and making phone calls late at night are not subconscious actions. We choose to do them.

[d'Arthez]

LNL,

 

of course there is a huge difference between a single affair, and everything he did.

Affairs are easier to understand in most cases, than these extreme behaviors. These of course lead to issues of all kinds, which give rise to all kinds of problems later in life. Sometimes we end up stuck, and need guidance to come to an understanding of ourselves and how to deal with our issues.

 

A label is of course a label, but for people around the serial cheater / narcissist / whatever would be the most suitable diagnosis, a label will allow to make sense of him and his behaviors. In fact, not considering every possible option in a reasonable way, can be detrimental to the therapy.

 

Of course you are no therapist (and neither am I), but the following might give you an idea, of what narcissism is about, and if it might possibly apply to your husband.

 

From DSM-IV:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

 

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

 

2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

 

3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

 

4. requires excessive admiration

 

5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

 

6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

 

7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

 

8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

 

9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

 

I can't judge of course if his remorse is true or not. That is for the people around him to discover, even though he probably believes he is true in his remorse. Even a true narcissist can pretend guilt or remorse.

 

He will have a hard time to understand the magnitude of the impact his behaviors had and still have on you; again if he is a narcissist, I would not be too hopeful. Let alone repair the damage that he inflicted upon the marriage with his behavior. And honestly, can he?

 

You can't simply start the marriage again with a clean slate. It does not work that way.

His behavior sounds somewhat encouraging with regards to healing; but again, but mostly words. Words which mean next to nothing anymore because of all the deceit in the past 7+ years.

Are you willing to battle all these demons your husband has inflicted upon you for the next decade of your life?

 

You are not required to hold on to the tiniest shred of hope, which is all there seems to be at the moment.

[LoveNoLoss]

Well, if it's sexual N, then its incurable... I am and will not make excuses for him.. but I normal people are no serial cheaters.. there IS something wrong with him. However, if he doesn't feel REAL remorse at this point.. he will never get it and that would make him one of those people that feels "entitled" to always having a girfriend. Those are the incurables..

[LoveNoLoss]

To D,

 

WOW.. you are quite an astute person. You speak with words of wisdom. I have looked at the N criteria and he doesn't seem to fit alot of those. He was never abusive verbally or physically EVER. In fact, he has probably only raised his voice about 5 times in our entire marriage. Narcissists seem to be abusive which he is not. He was always thoughtful, attentive, and caring... inspite of his other life... this seems out of context with many psychological issues... He has admitted to being "addicted" to me and hates being alone. In fact, he says that he is trying to seperate his addiction to me and his real love to me. He suspects this is part of his issue with being a serial cheater. If it is self esteem issues... well, ok... but don't people with self esteem issues feel guilt? Remember... this man slept at night... with the knowledge of having several affairs.. I almost died from guilt when I had mine... this seperates the two of us regarding our affairs..

 

And yes.. you are right.. I am not required to hold on to a shred of hope... I realize that working this marriage out what be a HUGE task... both tedious and painful... I DO still love him.. but I have to think of the "cost" of working it out... 10 years down the road...would I be checking cell phone bills and wondering why he is 10 minutes late getting back from the store?

 

The stats say that infidelty is VERY common. Sure, I could start over with someone new.. and what would the chances be of that person cheating? They say that marriages CAN be better after such huge crises' but I think they are assuming that the partners are dealing with one affiar..not numerous.. I mean after all, there were only rare moments in our marriage that he didn't have an OW. He doesn't even know what its like to be married to me...

[d'Arthez]

If he is and was addicted to you, what were these other women to him? And how can we sense of his bevaviors?

 

Is not it true, that you were someone who was always present, when he needed you? And the moments you were not there, he actually found other people to replace you at these spots and times. Seems like an attention problem.

A lot of people find it difficult to be alone; that can be another issue itself.

 

For certain low self-esteem is a possibility. But only if you know what these OW were to him, you can start making sense of everything. It might be the case that he is simply addicted to attention from women, which could be caused by self-esteem issues.

But the guilt-issue would still remain.

 

And if he was addicted to you, it makes little sense to be in a band, and actively trying to spend time with all of these OW. He would even feel guilty then for not spending a lot of time with you. Not to mention the affairs.

 

Even though low self-esteem is a risk with regards to sexual fidelity, it is no excuse, or justification for one instance of cheating. Let alone what he has done.

 

Infidelity is very common. But that itself should never be a reason for you to stay in this marriage.

Some marriages do survive infidelity from an affair if both husband and wife are willing to work at the issues. But the odds for a marriage to survive afters years of cheating and the issues your husband has, are slim.

[LoveNoLoss]

As for what the women meant.. he says .. nothing.. there were mainly there for his admiration, attention and ego stroking. He said it was also about the "chase"... conquering if you will. In fact, he dropped them like rocks when his game was up.. and he dropped them with little if any "withdrawl" ... what does one make of that?!?!

 

You are right.. he does have an attention issue.. and he is the first to admit it now. He is working with his therapist to get the core issue.. he has been in IC for a better part of 6 months now and he still isn't sure why he is a cheater.. but that he can conciously say he will never cheat but that he wants to make it subconcious. This sentence frightens me because what it says it that HE is a cheater by nature... but that he is trying to become a non cheater by nature... eeeeahhhh... ok. Seems hard to change one's character doesn't it?

 

And yeah.. while I have heard of marriages surviving serial cheating.. it is rare.

 

He is likable AND very messed up with a bit of a bottomless void to fill up... a very tough combination indeed.

[model38]

LNL, it's comforting to see that someone else is in my shoes and that I am not alone dealing with this issue. My story is very similar to yours except that we have only been married less than 3 years. I saw signs of his lack of empathy and cruelty towards me when we were dating but I chose to ignore them. This man has made my life a living hell. There has been at least 3 women that I know of that have confronted me personally about my husband and his affair with them (I guess they got made at him and decided to call me and spill the beans). The first one happened after about 8 months of marriage (I should of left then) when someone (assuming the her) keyed his truck. Well, fast forward to today. We are currently separated. A couple of weeks ago, a woman's husband called my home and demanded that my husband stop calling his wife. Well, this was the same woman that I knew about (the third one) and we had got into it a few months back when I notice on our cell phone bill (that we share together) that these two numbers kept appearing a bunch of times. Come to find out, one was her home number and the other was her cell number. Yes, her and I had a few words then and my husband swore up and down that they were just friends and that he was not talking to her. Okay, when her husband called the house a few weeks ago (on a Saturday) that was it! I had done it!!! I told him to leave!! Well he left (only with the help of a restraining order) and he keeps calling and begging to come back. That things will be different. I told him that he needed help and that he need to see a counselor. He said that he doesn't need any help and that nothing is wrong with him.

 

Another cellphone bill came on April 7th and the woman's husband called our house that Saturday April 2nd...between those two dates my husband has called this woman 17 times! and he said that it was over ....do he actually think that I am that crazy to believe him? What surprises me is that he feel like he hasn't done anything wrong and that I am the one with the "mental problem". We have no children together heck, he wasn't home long enough to produce any....he was always staying out until 1-2-3- and sometimes until 5 am in the morning..and when I would say something he would say "there you go love to argue and fuss" that was his favorite line when I would say anything to him about the constant staying out and the women that kept calling me.

 

Yes, I still have feelings for him and yes, I still do love him. But, I am praying every day the God will take that feeling away from me and fill my heart with a love for him as a brother in Christ. Because I have come to realize that he is not going to change and all that that was not a healthy relationship for me. I am going to go to counseling to deal with this so I WILL not attract that same "type" of man again. No, I didn't want another failed marriage (this is both our 2nd) but I rather be alone than be unhappy...God Bless you LNL and know that I am praying for you. Rose

[whichwayisup]

As for what the women meant.. he says .. nothing.. there were mainly there for his admiration, attention and ego stroking. He said it was also about the "chase"... conquering if you will. In fact, he dropped them like rocks when his game was up.. and he dropped them with little if any "withdrawl" ... what does one make of that?!?!

 

Selfish, selfish and MORE selfish is what it makes him. I'm sure he has narcississtic traits, maybe not a full blown N but definately has characteristics.

[LoveNoLoss]

Narcissistic Traits?? Ya think??