Women who lie about the pill?

[Nikki Sahagin]

Playing around with the pill intentionally is manipulative and abusive.

 

It's so easy these days NOT to get pregnant that unless a woman is incredibly careless or uninformed (i.e. mixing medications) it is highly unlikely to become pregnant when on the pill unless taken correctly.

 

I think it's important for partners to talk about birth control. I tell my bf when I come onto the pill (other times I stop it for a few months as I get bad side effects so I tell him when I'm off too). It's about trust. If you can't trust a woman to take BC and aren't using condoms, then don't sleep with her.

[Rejected Rosebud]

:eek: Wow. Of course I know this does happen but I literally know zero guys who've been the victim of it, ever let alone 3 times!!! Seriously sex is actually for reproduction, if we want to have it for fun then we need to be prepared that there MIGHT be unexpected consequences, and I agree with AN, some of you guys really pick the WRONG girls to have sex with!!

[MissBee]

I once had a girlfriend who told me that she had a miscarriage at 18, of course, I still dated her. While I dated her she was still quite depressed about the whole event. I understand that could be a very traumatic event for women, but I think she's been trying to fill an empty void ever sense. While we were dating she got on birth control and we had unprotected sex. When we got close to breaking up she eventually got off the pill and didn't tell me. A month past and we had sex once again. After the last time she eventually told me and I made her take a plan B.

Why can women just get away with that without any consequence? As men we pay for child support and father our illegitimate child for 18 years. Why is it okay for women to entrap men?

She stated that sometimes it takes months to get pregnant and that it wasn't a big deal. Two months later she started dating some guy, she got pregnant and had a baby. I'm so glad I dodged that bullet. From a women's perspective, isn't that wrong?

 

I'm confused...who has said this was an okay thing to do?

 

I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks this is acceptable and only very troubled women (as your ex seems to be) seem to resort to such measures. Most other women don't think it's okay and would rather not have a baby with a man who doesn't want it.

[MissBee]

I'm so glad I live on my little desert island of lala lad instead of with these myriad of women who are constantly thinking up ways to trap thousands of poor unsuspecting men......I'm glad I live in my little world where the women around me actually like each other.

 

I guess I'm just lucky. I am not surrounded by evil bitches who are out to get a man....

 

I was thinking the same.

 

I'm still trying to find out where this is acceptable. I mean I have NEVER heard one conversation from anyone in real life who says "Jane lied about BC and trapped Tim...you go girl! Wasn't that great?! More people should do that." Never. I mean I don't have too many conversations about this in the first place but if and when something like this comes up it's usually people saying how desperate and unfortunate it is why someone would want to do that versus it's a good thing. So I truly haven't a clue where people live where they find that folks think it is acceptable.

 

If you feel the woman you are seeing is trying to fill a void with a baby or is unstable, it would behoove you to use your own method of protection and in the first place why date someone you feel is that way?

[Got it]

I was thinking the same.

 

I'm still trying to find out where this is acceptable. I mean I have NEVER heard one conversation from anyone in real life who says "Jane lied about BC and trapped Tim...you go girl! Wasn't that great?! More people should do that." Never. I mean I don't have too many conversations about this in the first place but if and when something like this comes up it's usually people saying how desperate and unfortunate it is why someone would want to do that versus it's a good thing. So I truly haven't a clue where people live where they find that folks think it is acceptable.

 

If you feel the woman you are seeing is trying to fill a void with a baby or is unstable, it would behoove you to use your own method of protection and in the first place why date someone you feel is that way?

 

Yep unfortunately I know of two situations. The one I posted about and then with my parents. My mom wanted another child, a third, and my father having been the third child and having a lot of scars from childhood didn't want another. Apparently my mom went off the pill and immediately got pregnant (they needed fertility meds for the other two). So I think she was very surprised by that but my father was very upset by it. So the youngest was born with this divide. So growing up there was always talk about the youngest being my mom's favorite and her counter was my father always took things out on the youngest because he didn't want another child.

 

I can say that even as adults my father is far more "triggery" with the youngest than with the others but he also compensates the most with her so it may be a personality thing. My mom does talk to her more but they are similar in some areas, oppose to me, so I think my mom relates.

 

So there you go, even in a marriage, where one person makes an unilateral family planning decision. My father apparently got a vasectomy after that.

[CarrieT]

In the last 20 years, trapping a man with pregnancy seems to have gained in acceptability.

In what circles do you run where this is acceptable???

 

Because I've never known people or - for that matter - know people who know people where this is remotely common or acceptable!

 

:eek:

[Sassy Girl]

I have sons. The message I will tell them will be condoms condoms condoms. Yes, lying about birth control is a $hitty thing to do...Only a very small minority do it, but then a small minority of men also sabotage birth control for women too...amongst other things. Some people just cant be trusted...men or women (like the old "dont worry - Ill pull out, I promise")

 

The point is, if you're not using condoms guys, the moment your sperm leaves your body, you have no more control. None.

 

Dont want a pregnancy? Then wrap it...Its the only way to be sure...And if you dont...dont come crying to me when it happens.

[Maleficent]

In what circles do you run where this is acceptable???

 

Because I've never known people or - for that matter - know people who know people where this is remotely common or acceptable!

 

:eek:

 

Loveshack!

Where all the men a poor little helpless creatures at the mercy of woman who control everything.

[Radu]

I've had a similar scenario pulled on me twice. One lied and said she was on the shot (depo-prevaria). Wasnt. Got through that, same girl tried to inseminate herself with a used condom from the bathroom garbage can. Another said she was on the pill but it "must not have worked", I learned later, she wasnt.

 

I got dragged through family court by the first one, I was very suspicious that it was even mine, because her ex husband was lurking around and after the first incident I was quite careful.

 

I'll tell you as a guy with experience, there are absolutely no consequences whatsoever and it is something frigging awful when you are navigating the system. I am not sure the laws in your jurisdiction, but here's what you could expect here.

This is a fantastic post and i will add some information to each point to show the differences between roman law and commonwealth law ... where there are.

 

1. If you were cohabiting or married with the woman 250 days before birth, you are by default the father in the eyes of the law.

Must be married for this to be assumed, or recently divorced.

If not the case, you are not automatically assumed the father in case of cohabitation.

 

In any other case, the father has to sign himself on the dotted line.

 

2. If you do not beleive you are the father ("putative" is the term) you must pay for the DNA test to prove your own innocence. Failure to pay for the test means you pay the child support. Cost is about $900 for a court-admissable test. If you are on low income you might get it for $400.

Same.

You have a 6 month period from the birth of the child to challenge it if you are on the birth certificate or 6 months from the moment you found out that the child might not be yours [tougher to prove].

 

3. If the woman does not properly serve you or says she doesnt know where you are, you are the father and support payments are ordered by default because you didn't show up to court.

Not here ... though in other countries with obsession about supporting women and children it could be different.

The individual has to be served, procedure must be followed.

In fact many would-be fathers duck by way of this method.

 

4. If for failure of 2 or 3 you get an order to pay support, and make any payments and later prove you are not the father, the court may order you to continue paying because it's in the best interest of the child that you keep paying; especially if the actual father is unknown or can't be found.

I believe you have to pay from the moment the decision becomes final and irrevocable.

If you challenged paternity within the timeframe and proved it ... the court has no legal merit on which to stand to force you to pay for the child in question.

 

5. If you prove that the child is not yours and make payments, it is very difficult to get your money back. You can try suing the bio-dad, but suing the mother is like going down a rabbit hole and you may never get a cent because it may not be in the best interests of the child to force the single mother to fork back over the money.

Pretty much the same.

You can try suing but for various reasons it will take ages to win and you will spend a ton to get your money back.

It also brings negative publicity.

 

6. The fact that she lied about her fertility, birth control, or even if she took a used condom and inseminated herself without your knowledge means absolutely nothing. By ejecting semen in her presence you de-facto consent to fatherhood, regardless of what she said or what evidence you have to the contrary. The DNA is yours, you pay.

Same ... can't prove it.

Even if you could ... it would not be a crime.

 

7. In an interesting twist, women have the choice to deliver the baby, abort it, or adopt it. You cannot force her to have an abortion or adopt the baby if she doesn't want to, and any agreement she gives you that she will assume 100% of the responsibilities for the child isnt worth the paper it's printed on. In effect you as a man have 0% of the choice and 50% of the responsibility.

The rights of the parents are more important in this regard, and the father has rights.

A child cannot be given for adoption unless the father on the birth certificate consents to it.

 

His rights cannot be neglected.

OTOH, you could have the child without informing the guy and giving it for adoption ... which is what some do.

 

8. If she gets pregnant and leaves you, she can easily apply for an ex-parte restraining order (meaning you arent there to defend yourself) on flimsy evidence, which remains in effect until you go to family court, which can only happen after the baby is born. This prevents you from seeing your baby, and if you violate the court order you can go to jail. When you appear in family court looking for shared custody, the fact that you have not seen your own baby since it was born is held against your custody request and you might be lucky to move up in graduated supervised vistitation.

Need serious proof for restraining order.

Most likely it will be held against you if you show up for shared custody in court, but it is by no means impossible to get it or prove yourself.

It's all about how you present yourself.

 

9. If you get visitation or partial custody, she can illegally deny you access and the law will do practically nothing. The order isnt worth the paper it's printed on. If you fail to make a child support payment on the other hand, they can issue a bench warrant and have you arrested and detained until they can have you appear in court.

Can't get arrested here for failing to pay child support; by default they will dock your paycheck up to 50% of it until you pay on schedule.

If the employer does not send the money to the state, it is held liable.

 

She can interfere with visitation; in fact i know of a case where the father got visitation to his child with a woman from a very clannish family.

They kept a camera in his face during the entire visit.

It can be legally fought ... as if you handle yourself right and with many female judges you can make a good impression.

 

10. If you get a girl pregnant and do not know about it until later, and she does not proceed with the standard family court process, you can attempt to file and she can deny the child is yours. If you want to prove it you must get a court order for a DNA test and pay for it yourself (odd how the man always pays for the DNA test). She can violate this court order on grounds of "privacy", and until you get the DNA test back you cannot proceed in family court to get awarded access. Oh and yes remember #8 since you have not seen the child your access will be very limited.

If you have evidence of the relationship and are willing to pay for the test, she can't deny it.

It's an uphill battle but it can be won.

 

This is where if you are a smart man, and you play your cards right you will make a good impression on the judge.

 

11. Here's a good one. If you are married and have a child with a woman and think it's yours, she can simply sign your responsibility onto the birth certificate. If later on down the road you realize it's not your kid and get a DNA test, if you divorce her for cheating she can move in with the affair partner and you will be forced to pay child support for a biologically intact family, due to how the Marriage Act works.

It depends on the age of the child, but here the argument would be weather the child is bonded with you or not.

As much as i believe in men's rights ... even i must point out that the child is innocent in all of this and if you are on the hook for this ... consider that it needs the one person he/she knew as 'dad' in their life; or else it will grow up damaged, rejected.

 

In both systems the family court should [and usually does] think about the best interest of the child.

 

12. In family court, perjury is a completely unenforced crime. It may have a maximum sentence of 14 years but even if you have hard proof good luck getting anyone to persue the charges. She can accuse you of abuse, lie about police reports, say completely fabricated things. Nothing will ever happen.

Abuse = she will need proof to be taken into consideration.

lie about police reports = your lawyer will spot that with your help and it will turn against her

say completely fabricated things = yes ... but still she needs proof

 

What can happen is that the judge will get pissed off with her; less chances of that if the judge is male though.

 

Paternity fraud, whether misrepresented paternity or misrepresented fertility, are horrible crimes for which there is very little ability for redress.

 

Luckily not all women are horrific snakes who work the system; unfortunately the ones that do destroy not only the life of the man they played, but also bring a child into the world who does not have all the advantages a child should have from the date of conception.

 

Until the laws are rebalanced, it's a rough world out there when it comes to pregnancy and kids for men.

Thankfully, in my country there are no benefits and the costs of raising a child are high [relative to wages] so the incentive is less.

 

---

Basically if the couple lives in a country where roman law is practiced, in general and different from commonwealth law :

- the law is of stricter interpretation; exceptions are of absolute interpretation

- the rights of the father are somewhat stronger

- judge has much less discretionary power

- judge can only give a decision within some very strict parameters; if they overstep their boundaries you can report them to the Supreme Magistrates Council where their actions will be reviewed

- judges cannot get elected; either goes through 2yr of school and does 2yrs of apprenticeship on the bench followed by an appointment or he/she gets appointed by the president [much much rarer]

- judge is more of a ... bureaucrat with strict guidelines

[No Limit]

So I got curious and actually googled 'men trapping women with pregnancy'. Now trapping is actually the wrong word, from what I read "men talking women into pregnancy" would be more accurate, but it was interesting to read the experiences some women have made.

 

Of course, most were the naive type who fell for "let us make babies" in the 'heat of the moment' and promises like "I'll always take care of you and the baby" - needless to say I have yet to find a case via google in which the guy didn't run after/during pregnancy, classic deadbeat dad. Next were exes trying to keep them 'on the hook', although the most common reaction to this appears to be the woman running for the hills. There was also a married woman who went for a ONS with her also married boss and she was shocked when he didn't bring condoms - she had some though and made him take them - and was afterwards equally as shocked when he didn't pull out like he said he would and later bragged about it. An affair partner looking to satisfy his own selfish needs, who would have guessed?

 

More interesting were the few times a woman posted that guys approached her and asked her to be the mother of his children because they just thought she'd be a good mother (said women were generally in their early 30s) just because they were advanced in their careers. It's great that some guys are actually picky about the women they make babies with but just being picked out like that feels kind of creepy to me.

 

And of course guys in LTRs poking holes to get their GFs pregnant to ensure she won't leave them.

 

I must admit, in a world where most guys spend their days complaining about how unfair child support is I didn't expect to find that much. I guess we can turn the perspectives in almost every case - both sexes of the new generation are just screwed up in the head.

Edited February 18, 2015 by No Limit

[rainfall]

Women are always gonna want kids. Some cuz they want someone they can "hook", some think that they know best for you and a baby is gonna make you "grow up" - so they decide when you are ready for a baby.

 

 

 

SOME women are always going to want kids. Not every woman is like this. OP needs to find a woman who shares his views on kids and when/if to have them.

[blackcat777]

I've always thought that poking a hole in a condom or otherwise tampering with birth control is the equivalent of rape... horrifying and violating in every way.

[autumnnight]

This doesn't happen nearly as much as some people are wigging out about. It's horrible when it does, but it's not some rampant phenomenon. It's just one of those "things" that the MRA have blwn out of proportion.

[Radu]

Agreed ... not all women or even most women do this.

 

Overall the percentage is not that high.

Guys should be informed of it though [as i was] and be careful ... unfortunately if there is one fault that we can put on the media is that it is so woman focused and feminism is so rampant in it's depictions that the idea that this could happen isn't actually mainstream knowledge to the ppl who need it the most ... the teenagers and 20yr olds.

Having a child when not ready during this period could literally cancel or seriously degrade your life.

 

As for it becoming ... accepting ... there is the trend and it's backed mostly by the feelings of 'i'm a woman, and what i do is empowering, how wonderful it is to be a mother ... see, i'm a mother ... you can't say i'm bad'.

Man ordered to pay £100,000 for children after ex-wife tricks clinic into using his frozen sperm | Daily Mail Online

New father Joe Pressil sues fertility clinic after his girlfriend 'stole his sperm and got pregnant gave birth to twins via IVF' | Daily Mail Online

Lesbians? sperm donor must pay child support | the Daily Mail | Fathers' Rights, Child Support, Custody

Man sues sperm bank and ex-girlfriend after she 'bluffed her way into getting two vials of his semen and used it get pregnant as punishment for dumping her' | Daily Mail Online

Man sues sperm bank and ex-girlfriend after she 'bluffed her way into getting two vials of his semen and used it get pregnant as punishment for dumping her' | Daily Mail Online

https://ca.shine.yahoo.com/blogs/shine-on/man-sues-ex-wife-stealing-frozen-sperm-pregnant-164323337.html

Detroit man owes $30,000 in support for child he did not father - NY Daily News

Richard Rodwell: Husband tricked into believing wife's children were his own awarded £25K - for 'bereavement' | Daily Mail Online

Fathers and Kids: Parenting Fraud | Men's Health

https://milkmanschild.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/topeka-sperm-donor-case-politically-motivated/#more-78

Edited February 19, 2015 by Radu

[Maleficent]

I've always thought that poking a hole in a condom or otherwise tampering with birth control is the equivalent of rape... horrifying and violating in every way.

 

I get why you are making that comparison.

But really, poking holes in a condom =\= being forced down while someone forces their penis up your vagina. At all.

[MissBee]

Yep unfortunately I know of two situations. The one I posted about and then with my parents. My mom wanted another child, a third, and my father having been the third child and having a lot of scars from childhood didn't want another. Apparently my mom went off the pill and immediately got pregnant (they needed fertility meds for the other two). So I think she was very surprised by that but my father was very upset by it. So the youngest was born with this divide. So growing up there was always talk about the youngest being my mom's favorite and her counter was my father always took things out on the youngest because he didn't want another child.

 

I can say that even as adults my father is far more "triggery" with the youngest than with the others but he also compensates the most with her so it may be a personality thing. My mom does talk to her more but they are similar in some areas, oppose to me, so I think my mom relates.

 

So there you go, even in a marriage, where one person makes an unilateral family planning decision. My father apparently got a vasectomy after that.

 

How I understood the OP's post was that he was claiming that when women "trap a man" with pregnancy this is deemed acceptable and it is not frowned upon and they aren't judged negatively for it and why is that okay. My response was that while this isn't a common topic of conversation in my circle, yes sure I have heard of women who have tried to trap a man with pregnancy (usually people suspect this though and there isn't even evidence of it besides the man crying oh she's pregnant and I didn't want a child so it's her fault and it's a trap and not seeing how it was also him choosing to go condom less as well), but when these topics come up I don't know anyone who thinks the woman is ingenious for it or congratulates her and says she's done a wonderful thing.

 

That's why I was puzzled, like where is this a good thing where no one looks down on it or think it's desperate, selfish or some other negative? I wasn't saying that some women never resort to this, I was just saying that I don't think other people look at it as acceptable and the women themselves who do it or find it acceptable probably have lots going on with them why they've resorted to that...but it's certainly not this huge cultural/societal acceptance of it where if a woman admits this people pat her on the back, which is what the OP seems to be arguing that there has been come cultural shift in acceptance of "pregnancy traps" and as far as I know, there isn't any such acceptance of it.

 

Aside: in the case of your mom though if she needed fertility meds and was surprised by the pregnancy, can that even count as a conscious pregnancy trap? Why would she have been surprised at her own trap? It seems as though, while she wanted a child and got off the pill, she wasn't trying to trap him, but assumed (based on needing fertility meds and I gather by her being surprised) that she wouldn't be able to get pregnant in all likelihood, so it wasn't a calculated and malicious plan on her part.

Edited February 19, 2015 by MissBee

[Got it]

How I understood the OP's post was that he was claiming that when women "trap a man" with pregnancy this is deemed acceptable and it is not frowned upon and they aren't judged negatively for it and why is that okay. My response was that while this isn't a common topic of conversation in my circle, yes sure I have heard of women who have tried to trap a man with pregnancy (usually people suspect this though and there isn't even evidence of it besides the man crying oh she's pregnant and I didn't want a child so it's her fault and it's a trap and not seeing how it was also him choosing to go condom less as well), but when these topics come up I don't know anyone who thinks the woman is ingenious for it or congratulates her and says she's done a wonderful thing.

 

That's why I was puzzled, like where is this a good thing where no one looks down on it or think it's desperate, selfish or some other negative? I wasn't saying that some women never resort to this, I was just saying that I don't think other people look at it as acceptable and the women themselves who do it or find it acceptable probably have lots going on with them why they've resorted to that...but it's certainly not this huge cultural/societal acceptance of it where if a woman admits this people pat her on the back, which is what the OP seems to be arguing that there has been come cultural shift in acceptance of "pregnancy traps" and as far as I know, there isn't any such acceptance of it.

 

Aside: in the case of your mom though if she needed fertility meds and was surprised by the pregnancy, can that even count as a conscious pregnancy trap? Why would she have been surprised at her own trap? It seems as though, while she wanted a child and got off the pill, she wasn't trying to trap him, but assumed (based on needing fertility meds and I gather by her being surprised) that she wouldn't be able to get pregnant in all likelihood, so it wasn't a calculated and malicious plan on her part.

 

MIss Bee, I wasn't disagreeing with your point.

 

In my mom's case, my dad specifically said no more kids and stay on the pill. My mom unilaterally stopped without informing him. So that to me is pretty much the same even in the context of marriage. Both parties should be actively consenting to procreation (as well as protecting one's self if one does not want to procreate).

 

My mom agrees, she said she made the decision but figured he would change his mind and she really wanted anther baby. She just didn't expect it to work, but that it can be easier the second time around, so felt it was worth taking the shot.

 

There may be more there, I really don't deep dive their marriage and don't ask questions. They did more crap to each other to get back at what the other person did that I tend to take the ostrich approach. I love them but healthy they are not in romantic relationship. WAAAAYYY too much FOO baggage.

[BlueIris]

I once had a girlfriend who told me that she had a miscarriage at 18, of course, I still dated her. While I dated her she was still quite depressed about the whole event. I understand that could be a very traumatic event for women, but I think she's been trying to fill an empty void ever sense. While we were dating she got on birth control and we had unprotected sex. When we got close to breaking up she eventually got off the pill and didn't tell me. A month past and we had sex once again. After the last time she eventually told me and I made her take a plan B.

Why can women just get away with that without any consequence? As men we pay for child support and father our illegitimate child for 18 years. Why is it okay for women to entrap men?

She stated that sometimes it takes months to get pregnant and that it wasn't a big deal. Two months later she started dating some guy, she got pregnant and had a baby. I'm so glad I dodged that bullet. From a women's perspective, isn't that wrong?

 

From all people’s perspective, I think lying is wrong. Well, most people’s perspective. But that's not the issue. Use your own birth control (which can fail) or don't have sex with people you aren't ready to have children with (fail safe).

 

Babies are made by having sex. Boys and girls knew this when I grew up. I don't feel sorry for people who have sex and the woman gets pregnant. That's what happens.

 

Men have a HUGE amount of control over this.

[123321]

From all people’s perspective, I think lying is wrong. Well, most people’s perspective. But that's not the issue. Use your own birth control (which can fail) or don't have sex with people you aren't ready to have children with (fail safe).

 

Babies are made by having sex. Boys and girls knew this when I grew up. I don't feel sorry for people who have sex and the woman gets pregnant. That's what happens.

 

Men have a HUGE amount of control over this.

 

If women can opt out of parenthood after conception, men should have the same option.

[mstie]

It is wrong to lie, but...

 

People need to be more careful. I hate to be Debbie downer but bc won't prevent stds. And they are on the rise. Do you want to risk it? Really?