Cheaters with personality disorders

[Ralph79]

You know Ralph...we can argue for the sake of argument..what to call affairs. Some call them ons, some call them pa, some call them ea...I just always call it an affair...I say i committed adultery...because i don't want anyone to think i think lightly of what i did....and it really doesn't matter to me what you call it....i know i betrayed my husband and had sex with another man. I lied, i deceived, i cheated.

 

By the same token we can split hairs about what to say we did as WS...we made a mistake, we made a bad decision, we made a bad choice. It doesn't really make any difference...the bottom line is still...I betrayed, I cheated, I lied, I deceived.

 

I would never want to hurt my husband or cause a disservice to my husband by saying i made a bad choice....and if that offended you i am deeply sorry...you know me well enough here to know that i would never want to cause anyone anymore pain....especially him. I think he is ok with my calling it a bad choice..and trust me if he isn't he will correct me.

 

Thank you for making me aware that this could be a sensitive place for other BS...I will discuss it with John and see if i should use a different terminology in the future.

 

Again...I am deeply sorry.

 

I'm not offended and an apology is not necessary. My original intent wasn't to highlight your case in particular. It was meant as a statement towards all BS's not just yours. Sadly I failed at wording that statement properly.

 

In hopes of better explaining myself, I'll try to be more clear on what I meant by my post:

 

I felt that this statement:

 

"I am a person who believes that all of us has the ability to make a bad decision...and i believe that making bad decisions is sometimes influenced by the time, and opportunity, and circumstances surrounding us at the time."

 

is something practically anyone can relate to. But, if you specify the "bad decision" in question, the statement would read like this:

 

"I am a person who believes that all of us has the ability to betray our loved ones...and i believe that undertaking that betrayal is sometimes influenced by the time, and opportunity, and circumstances surrounding us at the time."

 

And I think a few people might say : "Wait a minute... I don't think I could bring myself to do something like that, regardless of any variables".

 

That was simply my intent on my last post. I'm sincerely sorry if I've upset you or your husband. I simply sometimes post opinions on phrases that jump out at me, at that was one of them.

 

I know semantics are often an issue in these types of forums. However, I as the Mrs. JA's husband see no disservice in calling this a bad decision or bad choice. That is what it was, a conscious decision to betray me. It was not an accident. I know some also have trouble with the word mistake as they also take it as an accident. Anyway, I have no doubt my wife owns it.

[FONT=Calibri][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

 

I have followed your stories and I fully believe and envy you to be honest. I wish my ex-wife would've displayed a fraction of remorse your wife has for you. I don't need her apology anymore, because she is no longer a part of my life, but it is truly inspiring to see that a marriage can not just survive, but thrive after all that happened in your lives.

 

Again, my point was merely to avoid clumping up adultery with other minor marital mishaps. Not to claim that your wife intended to lessen the severity of what happened.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Ralph...I do believe that everyone given the right frame of mind under the right circumstances could cheat...and i say that because....I would have bet my children's lives on it...and i would die for my children.

 

You see...i was in a bad frame of mind...I was not thinking as i normally would think...or evaluate things like i normally would have. I became consumed with ME...and i am a very compassionate person and unselfish person.

 

I am not making excuses...I am telling you all that sometimes in the right situation under the right circumstances in the wrong frame of mind....a very unselfish, caring, Christian, moral woman....can become a whore. It happened to me....and if it could happen to me...it could happen to anyone. I have learned to never say never.

 

Now I certainly agree there are those who have more self control and keep their heads on straight....and even in the storm...they may hold steadfast and true....and i wish i could have been that person i "thought" i was.

 

No one is more disappointed in me...than me.

[Confused48]

My ex sort of a had issues with escapism, but he never would have cheated. He just wasn't wired that way - for one thing he was a closed off person who didn't want sex, so what would have been the point of an affair, ya know?

 

This type of person may still have an affair. How many times have we heard, very believable, accounts of people who say they were not in it for the sex. Either bc sex was not that important to them or the sex in the marriage was great. Yet they had an affair.

 

So I'd say your ex was one of those among us just not inclined to have an affair. You don't have to want sex to give it. You don't have want sex to find yourself six feet deep in full on PA.

[autumnnight]

This type of person may still have an affair. How many times have we heard, very believable, accounts of people who say they were not in it for the sex. Either bc sex was not that important to them or the sex in the marriage was great. Yet they had an affair.

 

So I'd say your ex was one of those among us just not inclined to have an affair. You don't have to want sex to give it. You don't have want sex to find yourself six feet deep in full on PA.

 

I am sure part of me feels that way in sort of a jaded sense because he was so nonsexual and really nonmale in a lot of ways. I have to say, if he HAD had a PA (unless it was with a man or something) after refusing me for all those years, I'd probably have gone Lorena on him. Some of his escapism felt like an affair at times, I have to say.

 

I think that is why I sometimes feel defensive on forums. Somehow just because HIS betrayals weren't with a woman while naked, they weren't a big deal. That hurts.

[Confused48]

"I am a person who believes that all of us has the ability to betray our loved ones...and i believe that undertaking that betrayal is sometimes influenced by the time, and opportunity, and circumstances surrounding us at the time."

 

And I think a few people might say : "Wait a minute... I don't think I could bring myself to do something like that, regardless of any variables".

 

I'm glad you took the time to explain bc I respectfully have to disagree. This is one of those things where people think they know what they would do, when they are in fact completely unable to know. They have not been tested. Until one has been in the position of extreme temptation to betray, they can not and do not know how they would act. They only have wishfull thinking with respect to that decision.

 

Just like saying, if my WS were to have done "x" then no, I would not have been able to reconcile with WS but since my WS only did "y" I can try. You don't know till you are tested. This is no different and I have compassion for those that were tested and failed to live up to what they thought they would do when tested. I have compassion bc I know I might make that same bad decision. It is possible. I am human.

[Ralph79]

I'm glad you took the time to explain bc I respectfully have to disagree. This is one of those things where people think they know what they would do, when they are in fact completely unable to know. They have not been tested. Until one has been in the position of extreme temptation to betray, they can not and do not know how they would act. They only have wishfull thinking with respect to that decision.

 

Just like saying, if my WS were to have done "x" then no, I would not have been able to reconcile with WS but since my WS only did "y" I can try. You don't know till you are tested. This is no different and I have compassion for those that were tested and failed to live up to what they thought they would do when tested. I have compassion bc I know I might make that same bad decision. It is possible. I am human.

 

I agree that the statement "everyone given the right frame of mind under the right circumstances could...." applies to anything.

 

I could tell you, that you could one day maliciously murder your own child. I could say that under the right circumstances, you can bring yourself to steal from your parents, or become a cannibal.

 

Anything that is possible , is possible after all, right?

 

In my opinion the strength of one's resolve comes not from resisting overwhelming temptation we might one day be faced with, but by walking away from the circumstances that lead us to face that predicament in the first place.

 

I was mildly tested. There was a period throughout my short marriage were my ex-wife rejected me in bed for almost half a year. And in my line of business, my position allows me to easily find comfort in the embrace of another beautiful woman if I chose to go down that path. I never did. I only had eyes for her. I think we all face temptation everyday in some way or form. For example where others have raised and turned their heads to look at a woman passing by in a short outfit, I would deny myself the "visual pleasure" others get by gawking, out of respect for my ex-wife.

 

But for the sake of ending this argument. I'll concede. IF I had allowed myself to start developing a relationship with someone I interact with on a daily basis other than my wife, and IF I had allowed that relationship to negatively affect my marriage by neglecting it, and IF I had allowed my new found marital problems to fuel my desire to be with this new person, and IF I had pushed to establish an environment where it would be possible to engage in an affair, and IF I had denied my ex-wife any chance of fixing our problems that got me to this point, and IF after all this I was face to face alone with the woman in question in a motel asking me to F... her after not having sex for several months....

 

Maybe I would have acted. Maybe I wouldn't have. Nothing in life is certain other than what I can control which was this:

 

"IF I had allowed myself to start developing a relationship with someone I interact with on a daily basis other than my wife"

 

I never let anything get to this point to begin with.

[autumnnight]

I agree that the statement "everyone given the right frame of mind under the right circumstances could...." applies to anything.

 

I could tell you, that you could one day maliciously murder your own child. I could say that under the right circumstances, you can bring yourself to steal from your parents, or become a cannibal.

 

Anything that is possible , is possible after all, right?

 

In my opinion the strength of one's resolve comes not from resisting overwhelming temptation we might one day be faced with, but by walking away from the circumstances that lead us to face that predicament in the first place.

 

I was mildly tested. There was a period throughout my short marriage were my ex-wife rejected me in bed for almost half a year. And in my line of business, my position allows me to easily find comfort in the embrace of another beautiful woman if I chose to go down that path. I never did. I only had eyes for her. I think we all face temptation everyday in some way or form. For example where others have raised and turned their heads to look at a woman passing by in a short outfit, I would deny myself the "visual pleasure" others get by gawking, out of respect for my ex-wife.

 

But for the sake of ending this argument. I'll concede. IF I had allowed myself to start developing a relationship with someone I interact with on a daily basis other than my wife, and IF I had allowed that relationship to negatively affect my marriage by neglecting it, and IF I had allowed my new found marital problems to fuel my desire to be with this new person, and IF I had pushed to establish an environment where it would be possible to engage in an affair, and IF I had denied my ex-wife any chance of fixing our problems that got me to this point, and IF after all this I was face to face alone with the woman in question in a motel asking me to F... her after not having sex for several months....

 

Maybe I would have acted. Maybe I wouldn't have. Nothing in life is certain other than what I can control which was this:

 

"IF I had allowed myself to start developing a relationship with someone I interact with on a daily basis other than my wife"

 

I never let anything get to this point to begin with.

 

Good for you. That makes you better than a segment of the population I suppose. So what? I'm not meaning to be rude, but really, so what?

[badkarma2013]

I am not making excuses...I am telling you all that sometimes in the right situation under the right circumstances in the wrong frame of mind....a very unselfish, caring, Christian, moral woman....can become a whore. It happened to me....and if it could happen to me...it could happen to anyone. I have learned to never say never.

 

 

I could not agree more...If anyone here had met my WW before her A with her Boss/OM you would have bet every dime you had she would never have engage in such actions....taught sunday school for kids 18 years..dressed very conservative..etc you get the picture...

 

What she turned into in her affair..(I had the Pics)...was a uninhibited Who^e who let him anything to her for 8-10 months...Anything..

 

Her actions before the A were moral...Christian and with others feelings kept in mind...Until they were not....

 

 

I often ponder today ....what would cause such a sudden shift in another's actions and behavior that she was so adamantly against for 22 years...

 

In the aftermath, I was left without so much as a Why.....Badkarma

Edited February 19, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Clarify quote

[Ralph79]

Good for you. That makes you better than a segment of the population I suppose. So what? I'm not meaning to be rude, but really, so what?

 

I fail to see how simple choices make me a better person than anyone. We are all God's children regardless of the choices we make.

 

I also conceded that I was never faced with Ultimate temptation by either my own choices or by fate's design so I am not qualified to assert that I would never cheat. I simply did my best to avoid circumstances that "put me on that spot" in the first place.

 

So I don't know how to respond to your question. I was simply stating my opinion, not branding myself a saint.

[autumnnight]

I fail to see how simple choices make me a better person than anyone. We are all God's children regardless of the choices we make.

 

I also conceded that I was never faced with Ultimate temptation by either my own choices or by fate's design so I am not qualified to assert that I would never cheat. I simply did my best to avoid circumstances that "put me on that spot" in the first place.

 

So I don't know how to respond to your question. I was simply stating my opinion, not branding myself a saint.

 

Thank you. I asked because I have always wanted to ask someone who is 100% certain "they would never," and I knew you would actually honestly answer and not get all huffy and deflect. And you are right. The way to make SURE you would never is to never get anywhere near a line.

[Confused48]

I believe my WW suffers/suffered from some form of Character Disorder.

 

An interview with Dr. George Simon on "Character Disturbance" - ChumpLady.com

 

Thanks for the link Dichotomy. It is a very scholarly look at the question raised by this thread. Very helpful.

[merrmeade]

...we can argue for the sake of argument..what to call affairs. Some call them ons, some call them pa, some call them ea...I just always call it an affair...I say i committed adultery....

Right. My alcoholic aunt didn't drink either. Each one had a different name depending on the time of day—martini, cocktail, chaser, after-dinner or bedtime something-or-other, etc.

 

The pd cheater might have had a ons, a pa, ea, an accident, a flirtation. No connection. "Serial" isn't a concept.

[merrmeade]

Anything that is possible , is possible after all, right?

 

In my opinion the strength of one's resolve comes not from resisting overwhelming temptation we might one day be faced with, but by walking away from the circumstances that lead us to face that predicament in the first place.

 

Maybe I would have acted. Maybe I wouldn't have. Nothing in life is certain other than what I can control which was this:

 

"IF I had allowed myself to start developing a relationship with someone I interact with on a daily basis other than my wife"

 

I never let anything get to this point to begin with.

Agree and disagree. Circumstances must be monitored by a mind that controls rather than obeys hormones. Even then, that mind can reinterpret and ignore circumstances, allowing them to accumulate and seduce. Control finished.

[Oneness]

I agree that not all cheaters are PDs...but I bet if you go on AshleyMadison you will find a lot of narcissists there. On the other forum I belong to, there is an overwhelming amount of cheaters who are narcissists and borderlines. A lot of the time, it is because they are sex addicts. You will find a lot of Borderlines (like my exboyfriend, who was a womanizer, a sex addict, and always cheated on everyone he was with), need to fill the black hole of need inside them, fill the emptiness, with lots of sex. The narcissists do it out of a sense of entitlement and need for narc supply.

 

So really, it is about percentages...what percentage of life long cheaters, serial cheaters, sex addicts, are personality disordered. IMHO, probably 60- 70% (based on what I have gleaned on another forum that I have been on for 3 years for people who have a personality disrodered loved one).

[Quiet Storm]

I also disagree that we are all capable of cheating. I'm not saying I will never be attracted to another man, or that my marriage will be great forever. I just know that I have very strong boundaries when it comes to interacting with other men. I've seen people go down the slippery slope and if you have self awareness, it can certainly be avoided. It's not any different than avoiding other weaknesses or vices, such as hard drugs. My father was a coke addict, and in order for me to avoid that same path, I will never use cocaine or crack. This isn't hard to do. You just avoid situations or circumstances where there is a potential temptation.

 

So while some feel that all people are capable of cheating, I think that most people are capable of being faithful, provided they have the right tools and self awareness. The problem is that many have not been modeled proper boundaries, they may not have ever been taught healthy coping skills. Or they may not be self aware, and have no insight into why they do what they do. Without self awareness, you lose the ability to "check yourself before you wreck yourself".

 

I would agree that everyone with those kinds of issues is capable of cheating. However, to say that anyone is capable is insulting to me, personally. I have done a lot of work on myself over the years to overcome my family of origin issues. When I face stress or crisis, I rely on healthy ways to cope that I learned many years ago. In all the ups & downs of 24 years with my husband, I've never let my boundaries down. I've been weak and I've experienced temptations... I am just self aware now because I am educated about these things. I see when my FOO issues are surfacing and check myself. I know myself... my strengths, my weaknesses.

 

Good for you. That makes you better than a segment of the population I suppose. So what? I'm not meaning to be rude, but really, so what?

 

I don't quite get the hostility. It's like you think that because people are confident in themselves and their boundaries, that they are saying they are somehow "better". I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that we all have weaknesses and shortcomings, but we can learn to live life aware of them, and use that information to avoid problems for ourselves. We do not have to live blindly, driven by our emotions. We can learn about this stuff and prepare ourselves.

 

There are cars now that are equipped with the tools & technology to avoid obstacles in the road. People can equip themselves with the tools to avoid affairs. We are all flawed in some ways, but that does not mean we can't learn, mature and evolve.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Quiet Storm

[autumnnight]

I don't quite get the hostility. It's like you think that because people are confident in themselves and their boundaries, that they are saying they are somehow "better". I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that we all have weaknesses and shortcomings, but we can learn to live life aware of them, and use that information to avoid problems for ourselves. We do not have to live blindly, driven by our emotions. We can learn about this stuff and prepare ourselves.

 

There are cars now that are equipped with the tools & technology to avoid obstacles in the road. People can equip themselves with the tools to avoid affairs. We are all flawed in some ways, but that does not mean we can't learn, mature and evolve.

 

I think that is the thing. We DO all have weaknesses and weak areas. And I am different I guess in that I do not view the weakness that allows someone to become an alcoholic, the weakness that allows someone to embezzle, the weakness that allows someone to drive drunk, or abuse their spouse or child, or beat up someone over road rage as ANY LESS BAD than the weakness that allows someone to succumb to the temptation to cheat. I do not think cheating, while horrific, is on some separate mystical plane from every other heinous act.

 

So I don't see where anyone with a different weakness can be of a mindset that they are better just because their weakness isn't infidelity. I realize, though, that on forums, it is generally accepted that the only real pain is infidelity pain for the most part.

[merrmeade]

Just wondering if cheaters are the only ones potentially with PDs... BSs can be co-dependent and lie to themselves but with results that are mostly self-destructive. WS cheaters lie to themselves with results that are mostly destructive to others. Serial cheaters must lie to themselves first and don't want to deal with the life issues that made them feel entitled to manipulate theirs and others' lives for their own perceived needs.

 

I don't see many WSs (except maybe Mrs. Adams and she's not a serial cheater) participating in the deep digging and analyzing of the motives, thought patterns, emotional underpinnings that shaped important past choices and future plans for relationships—their own and others'. The honesty requirement for this kind of clarity and integrity makes victims before it makes cheaters, imho. It would be hard, seems to me, for a personality disorder to flourish under this kind of constant self-examination.

 

Sort of...

Edited February 19, 2015 by merrmeade

[autumnnight]

So are cheaters the only ones potentially with PDs?

 

Apparently...I mean, other people might have them, but not the "bad kind." Or something

[Selfish]

If someone says they won't cheat because of some magical ability in them I sigh at their naivety and arrogence. Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't. It is far better to be aware of boundaries, and yourself and stay far away from the slippery slope than just blindly think you wouldn't and fail to see the warning signs.

 

Those people are the most dangerous to be married to. So many people would never cheat and believe that with their whole heart until they do. And some have been betrayed themselves.

 

Don't play with fire just because you think you could never get burned.

 

Labeling people, judgeing people, making misguided sweeping statements based on our own narrow point of view or experience. It is what people do best.

[Quiet Storm]

I think that is the thing. We DO all have weaknesses and weak areas. And I am different I guess in that I do not view the weakness that allows someone to become an alcoholic, the weakness that allows someone to embezzle, the weakness that allows someone to drive drunk, or abuse their spouse or child, or beat up someone over road rage as ANY LESS BAD than the weakness that allows someone to succumb to the temptation to cheat. I do not think cheating, while horrific, is on some separate mystical plane from every other heinous act.

 

So I don't see where anyone with a different weakness can be of a mindset that they are better just because their weakness isn't infidelity. I realize, though, that on forums, it is generally accepted that the only real pain is infidelity pain for the most part.

 

I don't think it's better or worse than other weaknesses, but there is an added element of betrayal. You are not only making a self destructive choice, but breaking your promise to be faithful. It hurts more because it seems so personal. You can be a drunk or a criminal alone. Infidelity only happens if you are part of a couple.

 

I think that reconciling or healing from infidelity would be easier if there was not that added element of betrayal. If my child was an addict and stole money out of my purse, I would feel betrayed. But I think I could be objective and not take it personally. I would see that he was sick and needed help.

 

When people cheat, it's hard to be objective because a couple is so connected emotionally, even if they're in a difficult marriage. It's not just a personal weakness, it's one that feels like a rejection to the betrayed. With other things, a person my think "my spouse is weak"., With infidelity, it's "my spouse is weak and also doesn't want me or us anymore". It feels like a personal rejection, or an attack on the marriage entity itself. Whereas other addictions and weaknesses seem to be viewed as a manifestation of a spouse's unaddressed issues.

 

Personally, I think infidelity is simply that- a manifestation of a person's issues. I don't think it's usually a personal attack or rejection, but I can certainly understand how it feels that way. I think that couples who successfully reconcile do often learn to see it objectively, and that it wasn't about love or a bad marriage, but about the cheater's issues. A couple is really only as strong as it's weakest link, so it's important for both partners to be the best they can be, and work their own personal issues out, because it makes a stronger and healthier marriage.

 

Alcoholism, abuse or criminal behavior are terrible things that cause damage and heartbreak, just like infidelity. They are all self destructive choices that do not only hurt yourself, but those that love you. For me, learning to be self aware means that you recognize all weaknesses and guard against them.

 

It's about protecting yourself, from yourself. Whether you are weak for booze, porn, food, men, attention, crack or compliments.

[merrmeade]

If someone says they won't cheat because of some magical ability in them I sigh at their naivety and arrogence. Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't. It is far better to be aware of boundaries, and yourself and stay far away from the slippery slope than just blindly think you wouldn't and fail to see the warning signs.

 

Those people are the most dangerous to be married to. So many people would never cheat and believe that with their whole heart until they do. And some have been betrayed themselves.

Examples? I don't know any.

[Confused48]

I also disagree that we are all capable of cheating. I'm not saying I will never be attracted to another man, or that my marriage will be great forever. I just know that I have very strong boundaries when it comes to interacting with other men. I've seen people go down the slippery slope and if you have self awareness, it can certainly be avoided.

However, to say that anyone is capable is insulting to me, personally. I have done a lot of work on myself over the years to overcome my family of origin issues. When I face stress or crisis, I rely on healthy ways to cope that I learned many years ago. In all the ups & downs of 24 years with my husband, I've never let my boundaries down.

 

Pride before the fall?

 

Also, I did not say that there was surely some set of circumstance where anyone would certainly fail. I just said you don't know till you are tested. However, before we are tested, some of us think they know. Others are realistic and know they can't know the answer before the test is given. If you are over confident, you are in fact more likely to fail, IMHO, when tested.

 

People can equip themselves with the tools to avoid affairs. We are all flawed in some ways, but that does not mean we can't learn, mature and evolve.

 

All true, well, and good. It still does not mean that you have been tested and therefore can speak with certainty about what you will do. It is foolish and dangerous hubris to think you do know what you would do for sure.

 

It is good to take these step though and plan for/hope for the best. In the meantime, don't look down on those that have been tested and failed. "There, but for the grace of god, go I," would be a more appropriate attitude.

[merrmeade]

Examples? I don't know any.

To clarify: Who says they WILL cheat? More important, the point is that people less likely to cheat didn't just blindly deny they COULD cheat. No, they looked at cheating, danger signs, stupid circumstances and all the influences and mindsets that might lead to cheating and said - gotta be careful; don't wanna go there. That's different from - I'll never cheat, period.

 

It's also different from never thinking about it at all - especially when faced with temptation or conducive situations.

[Woggle]

I feel strongly about loyalty and honesty and I could never live with myself after doing that to somebody. I admit I have many faults but I am honest almost to a fault and that is why I never would cheat.

[autumnnight]

I was a very committed Christian young lady who had very serious "growing Christian boys only" standards. I would NEVER make out of have any of my clothing removed before marriage. Never. And when my discipleship leader got prgnant...well, SHE must not have really been spiritual. Was she even saved if she could do such a thing?

 

3 months later I got home way after curfew because I had been driving around crying after almost going "all the way" with a guy I was convinced I was in love with. AND when my parents asked where I had been I lied.

 

My flaw? Being so sure I was SOOOO righteous and would never do such a thing. After all, he was a growing Christian boy....

 

There's a reason that same Bible I was so sure would keep me perfect says "Be careful when you think you stand, lest you fall."

 

Looking back, I'm actually glad it happened. I was much less insufferable afterwards.