AP's are to blame for A too

[BetrayedH]

2.50

 

I appreciate that you expanded on your thoughts. Unfortunately, I think we're talking past one another.

 

It seems that you may have loved and cherished your wife too much (she lost respect for you). Other BHs didn't cherish their wives enough. In both cases, the women cheated. I don't think the key is the husband's behavior as much as the wife's decision. What's consistent with cheating is the CHOICE to cheat. That's what causes cheating. There's no magical formula to affair-proof a marriage. Cheating isn't a marital problem; it's a personal one.

[2.50 a gallon]

BH

 

Again with the word "CHOICE"

The majority of the population still clings to that word.

Quite simply we are biological beings in which chemistry is the majority player.

Many times we do not have a choice. For example when it comes to eating broccoli, many of the broccoli haters have a gene within their DNA that makes the taste of broccoli extremely bitter.

The same term is use by many when it comes to the gay community, almost everyone of the gays that I have known in my life have deeply wished that they could be straight. Again it is a matter of their DNA. They do not have a choice.

It is the same thing when it comes to matters of the heart, most do not realize or understand the power of Love Chemicals and how they rule our lives.

Yes, unlike gays and broccoli, we can fight them. But to do so puts you at war with your soul, until the love chemicals are washed out of our bodies.

And alas there is no way we can force ourselves to really "fall in love" with some one else. The love chemicals are in control.

Edited February 23, 2015 by 2.50 a gallon

[Quiet Storm]

BH

 

Again with the word "CHOICE"

The majority of the population still clings to that word.

Quite simply we are biological beings in which chemistry is the majority player.

Many times we do not have a choice. For example when it comes to eating broccoli, many of the broccoli haters have a gene within their DNA that makes the taste of broccoli extremely bitter.

The same term is use by many when it comes to the gay community, almost everyone of the gays that I have known in my life have deeply wished that they could be straight. Again it is a matter of their DNA. They do not have a choice.

It is the same thing when it comes to matters of the heart, most do not realize or understand the power of Love Chemicals and how they rule our lives.

Yes, unlike gays and broccoli, we can fight them. But to do so puts you at war with your soul, until the love chemicals are washed out of our bodies.

And alas there is no way we can force ourselves to really "fall in love" with some one else. The love chemicals are in control.

 

 

No, they influence our feelings but are not in control. Sexual attraction is inspired by chemicals or hormones, but it's still just a feeling. Our feelings in our mind only have power over our actions if we allow them to.

 

We teach toddlers that there are some feelings that are inappropriate and that should not be acted on. They can't throw a screaming fit just because they are feeling angry. They learn this fairly easily after only being alive for two or three years.

 

In the same light, adult humans can choose not to cheat, even if they are feeling horny or lonely.

[autumnnight]

I prefer not to be at the mercy of every instinct or hormonal surge I have.....

[NYWoman]

QS

 

 

I totally disagree with you and agree with 2.50. We teach the young it is wrong to steal, murder, etc, and yet our prisons are filled with those who do not listen,

According your way of thinking I should have been able to use logic to fall back in love with my ExH. He felt the same way, give me another chance, work on it, and love will reappear. Once the love was gone, there was no way of recapturing it.

[BetrayedH]

BH

 

Again with the word "CHOICE"

The majority of the population still clings to that word.

Quite simply we are biological beings in which chemistry is the majority player.

Many times we do not have a choice. For example when it comes to eating broccoli, many of the broccoli haters have a gene within their DNA that makes the taste of broccoli extremely bitter.

The same term is use by many when it comes to the gay community, almost everyone of the gays that I have known in my life have deeply wished that they could be straight. Again it is a matter of their DNA. They do not have a choice.

It is the same thing when it comes to matters of the heart, most do not realize or understand the power of Love Chemicals and how they rule our lives.

Yes, unlike gays and broccoli, we can fight them. But to do so puts you at war with your soul, until the love chemicals are washed out of our bodies.

And alas there is no way we can force ourselves to really "fall in love" with some one else. The love chemicals are in control.

 

I have to agree with Quiet Storm in this one. I don't dispute that love chemicals are a powerful motivator. But our brains are also perfectly capable of making rational thought and to have them overrule our basic instincts. It not, we'd have a hell of a lot more chaos and anarchy instead of a civilized life where people understand that it's wise to wait for a green signal at a traffic light, even when you'd just like to go.

 

But you've evaded the subject of my posts multiple times and so I'll stop harping on it. Suffice it to say that I don't blame the men whose wives cheated on them with you and more than I blame you for your wife's infidelity. You weren't in charge of their brain chemicals. They were.

[Quiet Storm]

QS

 

 

I totally disagree with you and agree with 2.50. We teach the young it is wrong to steal, murder, etc, and yet our prisons are filled with those who do not listen,

According your way of thinking I should have been able to use logic to fall back in love with my ExH. He felt the same way, give me another chance, work on it, and love will reappear. Once the love was gone, there was no way of recapturing it.

 

So the impulsive actions of thieves and murderers are the basis for which all humans should gauge their own behavior or the actions of others? The lowest members of society set the bar? No... this is why they are in jail and we are not- they CHOSE to disregard the law. And choices have consequences. Many other people are in the same types of situations and choose not to kill & steal.

 

Some of us are fortunate enough to have parents that model good behavior and healthy coping skills. Some of us did not have good models or teachers. These people may FEEL LIKE they are slaves to their emotions, but that is only because they haven't learned how to cope in healthy ways.

 

As adults, IT's UP TO US to get our issues worked out, so that our problems don't rain down on the rest of society- whether it's a road rage murderer that kills a father because he made a wrong turn or a wayward whose actions hurt their spouse and children.

 

I agree that we cannot use logic to create feelings of love, but we can certainly use our minds and choose to not act on feelings of attraction, especially if we are married to someone else.

 

When adults feel as if they are a slave to their emotions, then that means they need help. They have not developed the skills necessary to be a well balanced and emotionally healthy adult. This doesn't mean they are bad people, it just means they need to work on themselves. You'd be amazed at all the people that work these issues out later in life, and wish they could turn back time and be better spouses & parents once they realize they weren't really being led around by their feelings, they just thought they were.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Quiet Storm

[2.50 a gallon]

BH

 

What issues have I evaded?

 

Seducing married women is easy. With EVERY married woman that I had sex with, it was the actions of the husband that made it all the easier. They were to blame. Had they loved and cherished their wives, the wives would not have shown up at my door wearing new underwear just purchased from Victoria's Secret.

 

 

I too had a hand in the break up of my marriage.

 

Although not said outright, the sex is awesome. They will do things with their OM that they have long denied their husbands.

Edited February 24, 2015 by 2.50 a gallon

[autumnnight]

BH

 

What issues have I evaded?

 

Seducing married women is easy. With EVERY married woman that I had sex with, it was the actions of the husband that made it all the easier. They were to blame. Had they loved and cherished their wives, the wives would not have shown up at my door wearing new underwear just purchased from Victoria's Secret.

 

 

I too had a hand in the break up of my marriage.

 

Although not said outright, the sex is awesome. They will do things with their OM that they have long denied their husbands.

 

I have to ask...is this something you are proud of?

[BetrayedH]

BH

 

What issues have I evaded?

 

Seducing married women is easy. With EVERY married woman that I had sex with, it was the actions of the husband that made it all the easier. They were to blame. Had they loved and cherished their wives, the wives would not have shown up at my door wearing new underwear just purchased from Victoria's Secret.

 

I too had a hand in the break up of my marriage.

 

Although not said outright, the sex is awesome. They will do things with their OM that they have long denied their husbands.

 

So again, you say that if they had loved and cherished their wives, the wives wouldn't have cheated. However, you obviously loved and cherished your wife and she cheated, too. If loving and cherishing is the solution, why didn't it work for you?

 

I guess that's not the solution. Or maybe it's like the three bears and you gotta get the temperature of the porridge "just right."

 

Mularky. The circumstances of the marriage, the behavior of the husband - they can be all over the board. What's consistent is that the wayward decided to pitch their vows and go get some strange when they were obligated to do otherwise. You brought up "love chemicals." That makes me blame the betrayed husband even less - how the heck is the husband supposed to control her love chemicals? The fact is that we are each responsible for making our own choices, acting within reasonable boundaries, and controlling our urges. It's no one else's fault if we fail to do so.

[BetrayedH]

I have to ask...is this something you are proud of?

 

I get the impression that it's a case of, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. When 2.50 got betrayed despite being a good husband, he chose to out-do them. He pitched his morals and slept with a bunch of their wives. And kept going.

 

I can relate to the sentiment. It's what led me to engage in my own affair following my wife's. I was hurting enough that I was prepared to give up some high-ground and to take on some guilt so that I could stop being so damn angry and jealous of her. And like 2.50, I found that it wasn't hard to find a similarly weak partner, to submit to a bunch of love chemicals, and to have hot sex with a new partner. And frankly, it was relieving to no longer feel like the victim.

 

But at the end of the day, I was acting like a schmuck. I tried not to think about the married woman's husband but the reality is that I knew he didn't do anything to deserve what I was doing to him or what his wife was doing to him. He deserved better. I never should have been in that position. I let myself be there. I gotta own that and it sucks.

[Casa]

So the impulsive actions of thieves and murderers are the basis for which all humans should gauge their own behavior or the actions of others? The lowest members of society set the bar? No... this is why they are in jail and we are not- they CHOSE to disregard the law. And choices have consequences. Many other people are in the same types of situations and choose not to kill & steal.

 

Some of us are fortunate enough to have parents that model good behavior and healthy coping skills. Some of us did not have good models or teachers. These people may FEEL LIKE they are slaves to their emotions, but that is only because they haven't learned how to cope in healthy ways.

 

As adults, IT's UP TO US to get our issues worked out, so that our problems don't rain down on the rest of society- whether it's a road rage murderer that kills a father because he made a wrong turn or a wayward whose actions hurt their spouse and children.

 

I agree that we cannot use logic to create feelings of love, but we can certainly use our minds and choose to not act on feelings of attraction, especially if we are married to someone else.

 

When adults feel as if they are a slave to their emotions, then that means they need help. They have not developed the skills necessary to be a well balanced and emotionally healthy adult. This doesn't mean they are bad people, it just means they need to work on themselves. You'd be amazed at all the people that work these issues out later in life, and wish they could turn back time and be better spouses & parents once they realize they weren't really being led around by their feelings, they just thought they were.

Sometimes the emotions are too strong to ignore. I suggest you go try it out as you have obviously never been in love... You compare love with murderers. How screwed up are u? More than me for sure. being passionately in love and that feeling is part of life. Your life is not fulfilled until you've felt that. I'd rather have felt that and it was reciprocated than be with someone who will never complete me.

[stellamaria]

Hmm.

 

Well I was a BS when I was 23 (had been married for 3 years) and the OW was 18 (ex-H was 28). I caught them at it, and she was brazen, and then she left her 'diary' for me to read and in it she was saying she felt sorry for him being married to such a bitch as me, she loved him and wanted him to be free of me. He dropped her quite soon after I found out, and broke her heart. I never felt sorry for her though - as far as I was concerned, she knew he was unavailable and should have stayed away. In truth, he was physically abusive and he later went to prison for kicking me in the face. The whole marriage was horrendous, but I certainly don't think I was to blame.

 

Then I was an OW. My AP told me he was separated, turned out he wasn't. I should have ended it with him but I chose to stay. He left his BW then and we had a 3 year relationship, but throughout this I felt horrendous guilt for tearing their family apart, and still do, actually. After 3 years he left me and went back to her, and as far as I know they are still together.

 

Then last year I had an affair myself and became as WS. I strongly believe there was nothing wrong with my marriage, nothing except me being a selfish idiot that wanted an (illusory) ego boost. I just got too attached to someone I considered a 'friend'. He was no friend though, and I do believe he was at fault too.

 

So, yes, I think OW/OM are partly to blame. They certainly need to have some responsibility for the situation.

[BetrayedH]

Hmm.

 

Well I was a BS when I was 23 (had been married for 3 years) and the OW was 18 (ex-H was 28). I caught them at it, and she was brazen, and then she left her 'diary' for me to read and in it she was saying she felt sorry for him being married to such a bitch as me, she loved him and wanted him to be free of me. He dropped her quite soon after I found out, and broke her heart. I never felt sorry for her though - as far as I was concerned, she knew he was unavailable and should have stayed away. In truth, he was physically abusive and he later went to prison for kicking me in the face. The whole marriage was horrendous, but I certainly don't think I was to blame.

 

Then I was an OW. My AP told me he was separated, turned out he wasn't. I should have ended it with him but I chose to stay. He left his BW then and we had a 3 year relationship, but throughout this I felt horrendous guilt for tearing their family apart, and still do, actually. After 3 years he left me and went back to her, and as far as I know they are still together.

 

Then last year I had an affair myself and became as WS. I strongly believe there was nothing wrong with my marriage, nothing except me being a selfish idiot that wanted an (illusory) ego boost. I just got too attached to someone I considered a 'friend'. He was no friend though, and I do believe he was at fault too.

 

So, yes, I think OW/OM are partly to blame. They certainly need to have some responsibility for the situation.

 

Bold post, Stella. I find myself hoping that you've had your fill of affairs.

[Quiet Storm]

Sometimes the emotions are too strong to ignore. I suggest you go try it out as you have obviously never been in love... You compare love with murderers. How screwed up are u? More than me for sure. being passionately in love and that feeling is part of life. Your life is not fulfilled until you've felt that. I'd rather have felt that and it was reciprocated than be with someone who will never complete me.

 

 

I wasn't comparing love to murderers, I was responding to NYWoman's where she said thieves and murderers were evidence that humans have no self control.

 

I'm still in love with my HS sweetheart 24 years later. I would never, ever throw my marriage and my children's intact family life down the drain for "love chemicals" with other guys. Many times those feelings are fleeting- these forums prove that.

 

I totally agree with being with someone that you genuinely love. I just don't think you have to become a cheater or liar to do that. A WS can leave their marriage in a respectful and honest way if they want to explore their love with another person.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Quiet Storm

[autumnnight]

Sometimes the emotions are too strong to ignore. I suggest you go try it out as you have obviously never been in love... You compare love with murderers. How screwed up are u? More than me for sure. being passionately in love and that feeling is part of life. Your life is not fulfilled until you've felt that. I'd rather have felt that and it was reciprocated than be with someone who will never complete me.

 

Wow....the wayward speak is strong in this one. So you are saying as long as you are "in love" you can break whatever vows you want and hurt whoever you want.

[Selfish]

Sometimes the emotions are too strong to ignore. I suggest you go try it out as you have obviously never been in love... You compare love with murderers. How screwed up are u? More than me for sure. being passionately in love and that feeling is part of life. Your life is not fulfilled until you've felt that. I'd rather have felt that and it was reciprocated than be with someone who will never complete me.

 

Well since qs already explained why she responded I'll say this

 

A lot of murders are crimes of passion. Hellofalota strong emotions there.

 

I slept with a married man whilst married. I was pretty screwed up. But I own that.

[stellamaria]

Bold post, Stella. I find myself hoping that you've had your fill of affairs.

Me too! I'm sorry if what I said hurt you or annoyed you in any way. I was just trying to be honest.

 

I would truly never be an OW or a WS again. And I hope to never be a BS again either.

[2.50 a gallon]

BH

 

I never said that all affairs can be traced back to the husband not loving and cherishing his wife. Rather that all of the husbands of the married women I had sex were guilty of this.

Another couple of examples, from my married co-workers. In the six months of our marriage, being in a new city, and lacking friends, when ever there was a chance to party with our co-workers we took it. My Ex was rather brassy and at one such party with my co-workers, after a few too many drinks, she told my female co-workers, that I enjoyed going south of the border.

This was something that they had never experienced, but were wanting to try.

After the break up of my marriage, and I formed a friendship with them, we had something in common, they weren't happy in their marriages. It was they who brought up the subject. Both of them felt totally unappreciated by their husbands. The romance, the passion was long gone. Their husbands were totally taking them for granted, as they had found new passions, one in golf, and the other in race cars. Sex for them was once or twice a week of five minutes for him to get off. While they expected the wives to perform oral on them, they never did it for her.

It was they who approached me.

 

As to did I take pride. Never thought of it that way. But to be honest I was delighted to have sex with the wives of the three OM's. As the commercial said, Priceless!

Edited February 25, 2015 by 2.50 a gallon

[BetrayedH]

Me too! I'm sorry if what I said hurt you or annoyed you in any way. I was just trying to be honest.

 

I would truly never be an OW or a WS again. And I hope to never be a BS again either.

 

No offense taken at all. I've also worn all of the hats around here. It takes some courage just to say it. It sounds like you've learned a lot. I do think people can be redeemed from their mistakes. I think doing so is what makes the difference so that we're not defined by them as much as our reaction to them.

[BetrayedH]

BH

 

I never said that all affairs can be traced back to the husband not loving and cherishing his wife. Rather that all of the husbands of the married women I had sex were guilty of this.

Another couple of examples, from my married co-workers. In the six months of our marriage, being in a new city, and lacking friends, when ever there was a chance to party with our co-workers we took it. My Ex was rather brassy and at one such party with my co-workers, after a few too many drinks, she told my female co-workers, that I enjoyed going south of the border.

This was something that they had never experienced, but were wanting to try.

After the break up of my marriage, and I formed a friendship with them, we had something in common, they weren't happy in their marriages. It was they who brought up the subject. Both of them felt totally unappreciated by their husbands. The romance, the passion was long gone. Their husbands were totally taking them for granted, as they had found new passions, one in golf, and the other in race cars. Sex for them was once or twice a week of five minutes for him to get off. While they expected the wives to perform oral on them, they never did it for her.

It was they who approached me.

 

As to did I take pride. Never thought of it that way. But to be honest I was delighted to have sex with the wives of the three OM's. As the commercial said, Priceless!

 

I think it can always be said that the BS could have done "more." There's no perfect marriage out there. It's not difficult for a wayward to find an excuse if they're searching for one. My wife's excuses sounded idiotic once she actually voiced them. She actually said she felt stupid. As for the men not providing oral, again the wives had other (here comes that word again) choices such as demanding therapy under the threat of divorce. If there are dealbreakers happening in a marriage, there are logical, ethical, moral, and healthy choices about how to proceed. Having an affair isn't one of them. I just put the responsibility for that choice on the wayward. I suspect that you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

 

As for having sex with the other men's wives, I would probably have to agree that there's probably no more satisfying revenge than that. I have a hard time begrudging a BH for that. Although, I doubt it was the most healthy thing for you. I've done some of that "sinking to their level" business and I think it left me more jaded and tainted than I'd like.

[Sub]

But to be honest I was delighted to have sex with the wives of the three OM's. As the commercial said, Priceless!

 

Just wondering: Would you have slept with them if they weren't the W's of the OM? And did they know that their H's were the OM in your situation?

[2.50 a gallon]

Sub

 

I grew up in a bad neighborhood, where turning your cheek was seen as a weakness. In order to survive, one had to either fight back or find a way to get even. Being a short skinny guy, I had many confrontations, before they learned to leave me alone. This environment engrained a Don't get Mad Get Even attitude in my soul.

As for knowing the men, yes I knew all three. Two of them were her co-workers. At a company picnic, just prior to the break up, I had talked to both of them and asked them to keep their noses out of my marriage. Their reply had been something along the line of. You are not her dictator, she is a grown up and can make her own decision as to who her friends should be.

On our 6 month anniversary was on a Tuesday, I showed up at lunch hour with a rose in hand, and spotted her kissing an OM guard. I have never been so mad in my life. Lucky for them there was a chain link fence, topped with razor wire between us. I called her every name in the book and told her it was unsafe to come home that night. So having no other place to go she went home with him and then moved in with him.

That Saturday, the next door neighbors' (we shared a bed room wall) wife left town for the weekend to tend to her sick mother. With her gone, he decided to throw a B-BQ, victory party for her and the OM and about half a dozen of her male co-workers all showed up with out their wives to rub it in my face.

Being as I could hear everything that was going on, I ducked out the back and walked two blocks to a beer hall and spent the night there. After closing I walked back, how I don't know, only to find the party was still going on. As I passed out on the couch the last thing I heard was them playing the theme from the Stripper, and them clapping and cat calling as my Ex stripped for them.

Two weeks later, the neighbors wife asked me if I knew anything about a pair of panties she had found behind the couch. When I identified them as the EX's I clued her in as to what had happened. Like mine her marriage was over. That weekend was once again her turn to leave town to take car of her sick mother. The two of us decided she would leave a day early, park her car about a mile away and come back to my place for the night. She was curious what I had been doing to the Ex to make her scream. She spent the night screaming so loud that her husband, not knowing it was his wife doing the screaming, was pounding on the wall asking me to keep it down. It was one of the most erotic nights I have ever had.

She was my first married woman, but that set the way to get even was to go after the co-worker wives.

When they found out, my reply was, to throw their words back at them.

Taking it further, that Saturday, with the wife once again gone, the neighbor once again invited her and the OM over to party.

When she had come to get her things she had once again rubbed it in my face, he was a pretty boy body builder.

On that Saturday, she came over to supposedly see our cats. But in truth to once again rub her affair in my face. As she was leaving she threw her can of pop in the trash and spotted an empty bottle of champagne and immediately headed for the bed room and new that I had not slept alone. She did a total 180, crying begging for me to take her back. Even went so far as to go outside and at the top of her lungs let the neighborhood know that the body builder was a total loser in the bedroom department. She tried to the next 3 to 4 years to get me to take her back. My marriage was dead, there was no way the I would let her be the mother of my children.

Edited February 25, 2015 by 2.50 a gallon
missing words

[minimariah]

Following your logic, no mm/mw is reponsibel for the pain of the ow or om.

 

i will stop you right here.

 

it's really simple = if you got cheated on, you need to focus on the person who was in the relationship with you & who betrayed your trust. unless this OW & OM knew you and had some kind of personal relationship with you... no, they aren't the ones you should be focusing on and blaming.

 

it's a matter of personal responsibility for OW/OM - it's a matter of moral & personal values. but THAT IS IT! that is as far as their responsibility and guilt go.

 

so if a MM/MW does something to hurt the OW/OM - yes, they will be responsible because they were in the relationship & took the responsibility, made promises. how can you even compare that with being hurt by someone who never even met you in the 1st place? never promised you anything?

 

so, no. you didn't understand (let alone followed) my logic, at all.

[sandylee1]

A simple answer to the title of the topic would be yes. Without an AP there is no affair. No if and or buts around it.

 

But there are always escorts and massage parlors. These are not affairs, but still cheating. I'm sure a BS would find this just as hurtful. Possibly even more hurtful than an A, in that their spouse paid for sex.

 

Any which way you engaged in an affair, you are doing wrong. The OW/ OM are fully aware they are doing wrong. Single APs often don't feel they are doing wrong, because they aren't committing adultery. ...that is true. Doesn't mean they are blameless.

 

I personally would be holding my H accountable. The woman he has an affair with would not be my focus, after all her morals are in the gutter.