Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 9, 2005 Author Share Posted April 9, 2005 Hi Resilient... Sorry to hear of your experiences with your husband. I am also sorry that you caught HPV... I worry about the same because there really isn't any "test" for it. 3. He feels true empathy for the BS and remorse for what he did because he understands the gravity of the destruction his actions caused.. As for the statement above, I am afraid my husband doesn't have this and won't be getting it any time soon... But then again, how would I know? My gut just tells me he doesn't have TRUE empathy. I think like you said, he is running scared and only realizes what he had and it is now gone.... realizing what you had is not the same as true remorse. I see that you took your husband back and he did it again? This is what I am afraid of... all I see is that serial cheaters really never stop. He had a hiatus of 7 years??? I suppose he could have done alot in that 7 years that you don't know about. It must have been devestating to have it happen AGAIN. I just think the risk is too great. Link to post Share on other sites
stressedoutjoe Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Nobody would blame you if you choose to divorce your H for his serial cheating [my exW was an unremorseful serial cheater who blamed everybody but herself]. But you have to make the decision to either save/rebuild the marriage or end it once and for all. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Instead of concentrating on your H's shortcomings and his upbringing, concentrate on YOUR shortcomings. This is after all your 2nd affair, and if we were to use the same measuring stick that you use to judge your H actions, I'm afraid that you also come up short yourself. You rightly state that your H has used women, but you are also presently 'using' two men. Why not take Resilient's excellent advice and " Find happiness as a single person of integrity and honor. Someone again worthy of a lasting loving relationship." If you were a single man, would you want a committed relationship with the person you are this very moment? Best of luck. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 point taken joe, When I first was with my husband, he kept the fact that he was married until later... yes I realize this isn't an excuse but he also didn't tell others he was married when he was cheating on me... I am in therapy and working on my issues... I am not having my cake and eating it too.. MY HUSBAND AND I ARE NO LONGER TOGETHER. Just because we are still married doesnt mean I am having my cake and eating it too.. ok? We are divorcing... I need to work on how to not get involved with people like this... and in a perfect world (which we all know it's not) I would tell the person I am with now to back off for awhile till I figure myself out... but sometimes we don't have control over timing of things... Link to post Share on other sites
Resilient Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 LnL, You are setting yourself up for yet another round of adultery. This stuff is cyclical, in case you haven't noticed: - First your husband cheats on his first wife with you, the OW (and I'm sure you made excuses for yourself and him even after discovering he was married to continue the illicit relationship). - Then you cheat on your husband. - Then you find out that your husband has been cheating on you serially. - And unfortuntely but somewhat predictable, you are headed towards marrying someone who participated in infidelity with you while YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. I see you are posting on several boards looking for folks to bless your divorce and tell you you are justified in cheating on your husband because he lied and cheated throughout the marriage. You feel the score card shows you due at least one infidelity compared to your husbands many. WRONG. It doesn't work that way. You are "choosing" to do something you know in your heart is wrong. And I hate seeing you set yourself up for more disaster, although it will be a few years before it kicks in, it is looming. Make a break and start fresh. It takes strength and its a road less traveled but worthwhile. Do you really want to revisit this situation again in 5 years? Lv, Jo Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 Is it cyclical or is it an epidemic? While I don't think that because of all this, I am doomed to infidelity in my next relationship, I do understand your point. I do not need blessings for a divorce, it's in the cards in front of me. However, I HAVE sought opinions and advice on serial cheating because I believe its in a relm all of it's own. I have a hard time understanding the concept especially when my husband says he loved me all along and it had nothing to do with me. All I ever read is MOSTLY people who have had one affair in their marriage.. maybe two.. I UNDERSTAND why those happen. I haven't been able to get an understanding on serial affairs. It appears that the consensus is that they rarely reform and this is in their character. My biggest mistake ever is that I should have gotten out of the marriage when I caught him cheating on me the second time... even bigger is that I should have never accepted his advances while he was married to someone else, or believed the lies that he said regarding that marriage. BIG MISTAKE. However, I am far from perfect and due to my unmet needs and lack of trust in my own marriage, I decided to have an affair... not a good move by any means... If I have learned anything from all this is that infidelity is a life destroyer... I can't rewrite history but I CAN make the right choices in the future. As for being with OM, there will be NO marriage as I no longer believe in the concept, will we work out? Hard to say... We have had long, honest talks about how we met and that it was an affair. I also have stated that I feel uneasy about the way we met and wished it could have been different. He feels the same. There are no immediate plans to move to either side of the country to be with each other... I don't necessarily believed we are DOOMED because of the way we met. I don't know where these preconceived ideas come from... stats? Morals? Well, if it's morals, then none of us would be on this or any other board... Whenever someone states their moral opinion, ie. you should not be with anyone but rather single, I ask "according to whom?" Link to post Share on other sites
Resilient Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Originally posted by LoveNoLoss Is it cyclical or is it an epidemic? To label it an epidemic is to imply no responsibility or choice. You have chosen to cheat, just as your husband chose to cheat. You both own that. Your trangression is no less wrong than your husbands. And I think you know that. The fact that a high percentage of marriages/relationships born of infidelity fail comes from statistics. The reasons are many and are based on the premise that the people participating in them are weak in character. They fail to protect the marriage and themselves from outsiders as they vowed and committed to doing when married. Link to post Share on other sites
Resilient Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Originally posted by LoveNoLoss I don't necessarily believed we are DOOMED because of the way we met. I don't know where these preconceived ideas come from... stats? Morals? Well, if it's morals, then none of us would be on this or any other board... Whenever someone states their moral opinion, ie. you should not be with anyone but rather single, I ask "according to whom?" So, you and your husband's marriage fraught with adultery wasn't DOOMED from the start because of the way you two started out. Even though you ignored the idea he was married at the time and was cheating on his wife with you. Similar to how you and your OM have started? And you don't see a pattern in this [aka cyclical]? Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 Actually, I was just asking a question and not using it as something to dismiss my responsibilty. Once again, I don't like the "weak in character" theory either. There are just too many reasons that people cheat to lump them in one category. I don't even think my husband is weak in character.... In fact, I don't know what it is.. although he has claimed it to be low self esteem and I have heard this to be ONE of the reasons people cheat. Once again, there are just too many reasons.. and they can't all be lumped with "weak in character" I just think that is horse$hit. However, I think alot of affairs can be chocked up to good ol chemistry. And of course this is not a dismissal but rather what has been proved through science. Many confuse the "teenage" love with deep committed love in a relationship. I believe this is why many end up returning to their spouses because the "high" wears off. WHile my husband and I may have had this in our affairs, mine may have been more related to that than his... his claims were that these women were "objects" to be used simply for his admiration, ego stroking and worshipping. My frame of mind at the time was that I was in a marriage with unmet needs AND I was changing inside as a person.... I wanted no part of the band lifestyle, hence I met someone totally opposite and I wanted to be number one in someone's life. Not someone that chose groupies and three to four weekends on the road with a bunch of guys all doing the same things to their wives (this was common knowledge at the time) We both had VERY different reasons for cheating and both were wrong... I can ONLY take credit in that my affair was short lived and I was preparing to confront my husband with the truth because the physical sickness and guilt was killing me. I was also prepared to live with the consequences of whatever my husband chose at the time. I was ready to OWNING up to what I did... it's just that in the process my husband's double life was revealed. I think too much damage has been done to this marriage... and as one person on this thread said, From reading your husband's postings on another site and your postings, I feel you have a rare powerful love between you and I would hate to see that lost.. While I understand that, I feel that love is just sometimes not enough. But we are all learning as we go right? I appreciate your responses Resil.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 10, 2005 Author Share Posted April 10, 2005 So, you and your husband's marriage fraught with adultery wasn't DOOMED from the start because of the way you two started out. Even though you ignored the idea he was married at the time and was cheating on his wife with you. Similar to how you and your OM have started? And you don't see a pattern in this No, I don't think it was POSITIVELY doomed from the start. Saying 100 percent that it was doomed to be repeated... would have been only an assumption. I believe there are successful relationships that can come out of a similar situation. However, the problem was my naievity and "blind love" when were together. He said he didnt love his wife and had not for a long time. When I asked him why he married her he said "I just thought it was the thing to do at the time" which of course stunned me but I really didn't understand it. I KNEW of the women he had cheated with on his wife! One thing I had not mentioned was that I had been fresh out of an abusive relationship. I had never been in such a relationship in my life... My self esteem was very damaged... I had also been afraid for my life...so there was my husband... knight in shining armor... little did I know... Link to post Share on other sites
blindsided470 Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 I believe there are successful relationships that can come out of a similar situation. I suggest that you do some research on your own regarding this. You will be surprised as to the extremely small percentage of successful marriages that were initially born out of affairs. Link to post Share on other sites
xring Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 How many affairs does it take to qualify for serial cheating? My wife has had 3 and I consider her a serial cheater. I think she has seen the light (last instance was 7 years ago), but I continue to be vigilant whenever an alarm bell sounds. LovenoLoss, you have had 2 affairs, one is ongoing. I consider you a serial cheater. I do not believe all marriages can be saved. If you truly love your husband, you can save yours. He appears extremely remorseful and as I understand is taking some extraordinary steps to heal himself. What are you doing to heal? You are continuing your affair. Please stop the affair, now! Then find what you want to do. Whether that is to continue the marriage or end it--you can only make a sound rational decision once you are out of your affair. It took my wife almost 2 years following the end of her last affair before she was ready to say she had truly fallen back in love with me. I'm not saying you should necessarily save your marriage, but I am strongly urging you to stop the affair and give yourself some time without a relationship before making your final decision. I wish you the best and hope you will take this advice to heart. xring Link to post Share on other sites
dewt Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 It took my wife almost 2 years following the end of her last affair before she was ready to say she had truly fallen back in love with me. xring, I'm really curious about this statement. I'm sorry to hijack, but if you have a moment, could you tell me what that was like? What was she like? How did her attitude change? How did you hold it together for two years? How did you break through her withdrawal? Thanks, dewt Link to post Share on other sites
xring Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Well, Dewt, to a great extent I was unaware of much of this. She had only one slight backslide (renewed contact) and that was a week after D-day. She didn't want to throw away what we had built. At the time, we had one son in college and the other was in high school. I think when I discovered the renewed contact (only one instance) and that she had written some pretty damaging draft messages back to OM which I don't think she intended to send, I gave her an ultimatum. Cease contact or I'd help her pack her bags. We had times after that where she was slightly withdrawn, but I believe the guilt of her actions was eating away at her. So, she put on a good front and although we had our moments, she made an effort to keep things going. I must say, I don't think she ever quit loving me, just wasn't "in love" with me. She went away on a 3 week trip for training at a university about 6 hours from our home. I offered to come up and visit over one of the weekends, but she told me she didn't want me to. Well, you can imagine I was a little POed about this. So on the second weekend, I just went up anyway. She seemed genuinely happy to see me and we had a pretty good weekend. It was only by her admission a year or so later that this is the point when she knew she was truly in love with me again. Since that time, in hind sight, I can see a difference in her attitude toward me and our marriage. I think we are in a pretty good place most of the time. I'm probably the more of a problem than her, as I am having some problems, yet, trying to understand how she could do this to us. Don't know if that rambling helps, but I have to give most of the credit to my wife. xring Link to post Share on other sites
dewt Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Well, thanks so much for replying. Reading your post, I'm beginning to realize that it IS my wife who will have to make her way 'back', and that ultimately, I can't really do anything besides focus on trying to make sure there's something for her to come back to. I'm doomed. dewt Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 11, 2005 Author Share Posted April 11, 2005 Dewt, What makes you think you are doomed? Are you trying to reconcile now? Sorry if I forgot your story.. I remember that she has cheated several times on you? LNL Link to post Share on other sites
xring Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Dewt, Don't give up. You just have to continue to show your love for her and try to be open to doing activities with her that she enjoys. I won't say it won't be hard and yes, you'll get down sometimes. But you just have to keep plugging away. The key to my message above is that you can't make someone love you. They have to do it on their own. What you can do is create a climate where she feels loved and is open to returning your love. xring Link to post Share on other sites
dewt Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 What makes you think you are doomed? Are you trying to reconcile now? Sorry if I forgot your story.. I remember that she has cheated several times on you? LNL, I haven't really told my whole story here. It's waaay too long. During my marriage to my W I was not the ideal husband. I was unfaithful and completely failed to meet all of her most important needs. In 1999 I had a three month affair and after Dday we joined that other site and entered recovery. No matter how hard I've tried to make it up to her, to improve myself, to be the H she wanted, it was never quite enough- she never really got over my affair, even though I had fully repented and did everything I could to show her that I could prove myself trustworthy. Her withdrawal increased until she started an affair in 2003 with our roommate, right down the hall from me. I knew all about it. Tried to let it run it's course, failed miserably (way too painful) and after New Years we had a talk and she chose OP ("It's not about OP, it's about me.") and we were through. I packed up my son and some clothes and headed to a different province where I had some family. She joined us that summer, with it understood that she was not coming to work on the marriage. She promised no contact with OP while we were living together trying to co-parent our child. I discovered a few weeks ago the the affiar has been continuing. I found emails from OP in one of my W's email accounts and forwarded it with a note from me to all the addresses included in some of OP's emails. To say it was effective would be an understatement. So we're back to step one. W wants to live together to raise our son. Does not want to be married or intimate with me. Loves me but not in love. Her general attitude is still one of "It's all dewt's fault", which is completely paralyzing any hope of moving forward. This frustrates me because while I can't say I've been perfect, the fact remains that when I realize I've made a mistake I own up to it and try to make better choices next time. My W, on the other hand can admit she's made a mistake, but seems unrepentent/unwilling to stop making the same mistakes over and over again. I am determined to grow. Determined to be the kind of Man I want to be. She and I have a bond that is very powerful and very rare and she'll be the first to back me up on that and I'm convinced that the two of us hold a potential for more happiness and successs than either of us thought possible. From my perspective, I feel like no matter what I do, no matter how I grow, she'll be sitting in judgement saying, "ya, but...." and all the while, she's engaging in hurtful and destructive behaviour that she's unwilling to change. I feel doomed because her affair was in the last part of 2003. 6 months apart showed no change in her thought patterns or behaviours. 6 months together have been an excersise in wheel spinning. She is so far in withdrawal that nothing I do is going to make a difference to her. And she shows no signs of wanting to exit that state. I say I'm doomed because I'm vulnerable, hurt, betrayed and I had abandonement and self esteem issues even before all this started. I love her with all my heart and soul. She is truly a part of me and nothing will ever change that. But I'm not without my limits. It's been over a year now of her dealing me destruction and pain and all the while sitting in judgement as if all this was my fault. I don't know how long I can go on like this before I have a total emotional collapse. I've already had one suspected heart attack. And the constant rejection is sapping all my will and desire to go on and really even live anymore. I will not give up. I love her. I love my son. I've already lost one son to divorce. My family is the most important thing in the world to me and I would die before I abandoned them. And I mean that very seriously. Stress kills and I have very serious concerns about my physical health. So when I say, "I'm going to save this marriage if it kills me," I'm actually being quite serious. And that scares me because the constant knot of lonely fear in my chest assures me that this is not game. xring, thanks for your reply. It's exactly what I'm doing. It's what I'm going to keep doing. It's my family we're talking about! dewt Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 Dewt, Dewt, Dewt... My heart goes out to you. You know what? The funny thing is... I believe you when you say you are trying to change. I really do. I believe you more than anything that comes out of my husbands mouth. But your wife is damaged. She is damaged from the past. I don't know what her thought processes are but if she is anything like me, she is with the other person because she can trust them and not you. Were you a serial cheater like my husband? How many times did she catch you? I ask this because if she gave you chances(I gave my husband three chances) then she may feel it's a total loss. I caught my husband in the first year of our marriage and then again a few years later. I tried to work my issues out with him regarding the lack of trust I had but it fell on deaf ears... meanwhile he was sleeping with random people without a condom unbeknowst to me. He spent years looking into my eyes and telling me he loved me and would never cheat on me. He traveled in a band and some nights I had a bad feeling.. when I tried to express this to him, he made me feel like a nagging wife and that I was just being paranoid. This kind of scenario is VERY damaging especially when all the fears are confirmed. I don't know what or how you conducted your affairs but this is what I went through for 8 years. He claims that he has always had low self esteem and that all these women were for admiration purposes... he said it had nothing to do with me and that I gave him plenty of affection, validation and love... problem was.. it was never enough.. because he had a bottomless pit. Now, after everything, he has quit the band, changed his phone number and given up OW. He is also in therapy. He wants to do the right thing, but the problem is, I don't believe it. I feel he is just in crises mode and as soon as we got back together to work things out, WHAMMO, he would go back to his old ways... he has been a cheater his entire life. And I am the ASS that was his OW. He did not tell me he was married off the bat.... I fell head over heels because I had been in a very abusive relationship. My self esteem was $hit and I was vulnarable. He said and did all the right things to get me to marry him. I see it for what it was now. You seem to have real remorse... I can tell... I haven't heard those same words out of my husband's mouth... the way you talk.. I CAN TELL. My husband is all about pointing the finger at me because I AM THE SICK one now and he is 8 months clean. Well, when you are working on things... you don't count the months that you haven't been with another woman.. and you don't spend your time on message boards touting and claiming that you are on the right track and I am grand and I blah blah blah.. it's more about convincing others and himself I think. But I can tell you are for real... and I dream of day when I can tell my husband is TRULY remorseful.. and not some pissed of little boy that got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Dewt, if you don't mind me asking... were you a serial cheater? Do you know why you cheated? Link to post Share on other sites
simonsez Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I am an expert in these situations and I have followed your stbx's situation on here as well as thousands and thousands of others on nurmerous other sites..... Here is the skinny..... As you will notice with your situation as well as dewt's you will see similarities... serial cheaters.. UNITL they think they have lost you.... then they chase and pursue and promise they will change....(they do as long as you keep them wondering and keep them from knowing they have you back in their grasp) Once they have you back, then they RETURN to what drives them... what drives them you ask? challenge, boredom, low self esteem, and wanting what they can't have. it is very simple and yet holds very true.... notice how dewt has kept trying with his ex. As long as she keeps him at arms length, then that challenge keeps him straight. Now, be careful, because he will come back and deny this is the reason he wants her back and he will tell me that I am full of ****, but I have studied this for years and years, and I AM CORRECT. He wants what he can't have and gets bored with what he does have, so if he gets her back and she commits to him again, then a few months or years down the road, he will feel that boredom and lack of challenge again, and then start the things again with another woman. (and justify it by blaming you because you took so long to take him back) sound familiar? Your stbx truly thinks he loves you because you are rejecting him. If you read his threads you will see it is ALWAYS about him. I think you do see that. He gets angry at anyone who disagrees with him or tells him the way it is.... He wants what he can't have. That is what is working for you, is the fact that you are somewhat unavailabe to him and it drives him wild. He will resort back to his old ways as soon as he either finds someone else, or you go back to him and he becomes bored again and needs that challenge. It is all about the challenge. Once that is gone, they look for the next one... Don't go back. Move on just like you are doing. You seem in good health. The people coming over here from the other board should be telling him to quit worrying about you and to agree with YOU. If he is truly remorseful he will agree that he drove you away and he should be saying that he UNDERSTANDS that he was emotionally unavailable to you for a long time and that he knows that you could sense that unavailability in him and that he AGREES that he is getting what he deserves. THAT is when you will know he is truly understanding the magnitude of the situation. It still doesn't change the fact of his problem with boredom and challenge and wanting what he can't have...... Link to post Share on other sites
stressedoutjoe Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 LoveNoLoss, Have you filed the divorce papers yet? If you haven't and you are absolutely sure that you want and need to end your marriage, then please consider not delaying the inevitable any longer. Also, if you still are having contact with your H, please stop because it only makes the divorce process much more painful than it should be. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites
Sucker Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Yo, SimonSez! You say you have studied serial cheating for years? I'm a sucker in love with who I believe is a serial cheater and would like to research this. I don't want any arm-chair psychology or pseudo-science junk. I'm interested in legitimate research or at least good academic stuff. Can you recommend anything? thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 Simon, Thank you for your posting. I see that you have lurked on alot of boards including this one. Enough to know that my husband doesn't SEEM remorsful AND that others from ANOTHER board were posting here in his defense. Interesting.... Your posting is very insightful... I would like to know why you claim that you are an expert? I am just curious... Hope to hear from you soon. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 Another thing... I have heard from others that are familiar with his postings that he seems doomed because it is "still all about him" and it's never about HOW he feels for his actions throughout the marriage. If he is truly remorseful he will agree that he drove you away and he should be saying that he UNDERSTANDS that he was emotionally unavailable to you for a long time and that he knows that you could sense that unavailability in him and that he AGREES that he is getting what he deserves. THAT is when you will know he is truly understanding the magnitude of the situation. It still doesn't change the fact of his problem with boredom and challenge and wanting what he can't have....... The words above have never been more true... Link to post Share on other sites
stressedoutjoe Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I guess your non-reply answers the question I asked you in my previous post. Joe Link to post Share on other sites
Author LoveNoLoss Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 StressedOutJoe, We have talked about divorce but we are working on more pressing issues like taxes. We both (him more than me) have HUGE tax problems. Mine are pretty solvable but his need a tax attorney. Anyway, one thing at a time. Unfortuantly, things are not that black and white huh? Link to post Share on other sites
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