katielee Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I'm re-reading Janis Spring's book How Can I Forgive You? - the courage to forgive, the freedom not to. I don't need to hurt him back, constantly remind him, or be angry. There is a call for making amends and restitution in this book. There is also a message that forgiveness need not be complete, but partial - enough to put together a good, authentic life. There is a focus on dignity and justice. The offender needs to be the source of the cure, not the source of ongoing trauma. I like this: You don't dismiss your need for restitution; you let him work with you to achieve restitution. But I really don't know what that would look like in my life. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TrustedthenBusted Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 But I really don't know what that would look like in my life. Same here. Thought I'd share some from just this morning, and let you know what it looks like in mine. Last night, a mutual friend of my wife and I texted us a picture she found on her phone from 6 years ago. It was a pic of our kids ( one of mine and one of friend's ) camping. This camping trip was 6 years ago, and the picture immediately brought back some difficult memories for me, and I was definitely impacted this morning when I saw it. Wife noticed, because I left for the office without much of a decent hug. She instantly texted me a "everything ok?" I replied " Yes, sorry that picture really bothered me." She realized why and said " Ouch, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the timeline" And I replied that the pic was taken at a local lake, and that was a trip she had told me she wasn't feeling well enough to attend. Obviously a lie, as we now know where she went that day." She wrote back that she is very sorry, and understands why that pic would hurt, and then she thanked me for bringing it up. She said I love you, and I said I love you too. Is that forgiveness? Hell if I know. But it's a bunch of honesty, and two people acknowledging a difficult moment, and saying I love you. I still don't feel "Wonderful" yet, but I don't feel horrible either. So there you go. That's what forgiveness looks like in my life this morning. 8 Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) I'm re-reading Janis Spring's book How Can I Forgive You? - the courage to forgive, the freedom not to. I don't need to hurt him back, constantly remind him, or be angry. There is a call for making amends and restitution in this book. There is also a message that forgiveness need not be complete, but partial - enough to put together a good, authentic life. There is a focus on dignity and justice. The offender needs to be the source of the cure, not the source of ongoing trauma. I like this: You don't dismiss your need for restitution; you let him work with you to achieve restitution. But I really don't know what that would look like in my life. ***************************************************************** You are so right...constantly hurting those who have wronged us , and expecting peace are fooling themselves..Forgiveness is for us not the party who offended us... Every major Religion on earth, Requires us to forgive those who have wronged us...Everyone of them... But none require us to R or even to attempt Reconciliation...None.. I had a nightmare event happen to me during my WWs A and after D-DAY...and after days and weeks of angst I filed for D and eventually Forgave her.....But I Knew I would never forget what was shown to me and would NEVER let it go..So I walked.. A Quote that has stayed me from that time is this "One must never confuse Forgiveness with Reconciliation ..for they are Not the same thing.." And they are not.. Badkarma Edited February 23, 2015 by badkarma2013 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 But I really don't know what that would look like in my life. From reading your posts, my first question to you would be what, through forgiveness, do you hope to accomplish? Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Author katielee Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 peace and a yes, I'm good with life, type of attitude. Hoping it would help ease some pain. Link to post Share on other sites
Elias33 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 peace and a yes, I'm good with life, type of attitude. Hoping it would help ease some pain. Well said. Forgiveness is for yourself, then for the other. You want something that brings you peace. You've already been hurt by another person, no need to keep hurting yourself by carrying hate and bitterness. Easier said than done of course. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
drifter777 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 ***************************************************************** You are so right...constantly hurting those who have wronged us , and expecting peace are fooling themselves..Forgiveness is for us not the party who offended us... Every major Religion on earth, Requires us to forgive those who have wronged us...Everyone of them... But none require us to R or even to attempt Reconciliation...None.. I had a nightmare event happen to me during my WWs A and after D-DAY...and after days and weeks of angst I filed for D and eventually Forgave her.....But I Knew I would never forget what was shown to me and would NEVER let it go..So I walked.. A Quote that has stayed me from that time is this "One must never confuse Forgiveness with Reconciliation ..for they are Not the same thing.." And they are not.. Badkarma Ok, but know that the bolded is exactly the opposite of what the book and OP are saying. In a nutshell, many betrayed cannot get to forgiveness without the betrayer "making amends and restitution". OP also wrote "The offender needs to be the source of the cure, not the source of ongoing trauma" and "you don't dismiss your need for restitution; you let him (or her) work with you to achieve restitution". The message in the book How Can I Forgive You? is the antithesis of the "forgiveness is for yourself" philosophy. Instead it is a guide for moving toward forgiveness and acknowledging that acceptance is as far as many of us will ever get. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Ok, but know that the bolded is exactly the opposite of what the book and OP are saying. In a nutshell, many betrayed cannot get to forgiveness without the betrayer "making amends and restitution". OP also wrote "The offender needs to be the source of the cure, not the source of ongoing trauma" and "you don't dismiss your need for restitution; you let him (or her) work with you to achieve restitution". The message in the book How Can I Forgive You? is the antithesis of the "forgiveness is for yourself" philosophy. Instead it is a guide for moving toward forgiveness and acknowledging that acceptance is as far as many of us will ever get. ******************************************************************* trust me I Understand that line of thinking...But IMHO within the confines of Infidelity...Forgiveness is a Gift from the Betrayed to the Betrayer...Given if the Betrayer will accept it and Only if the Betrayed wished to give it.... I accepted what my WW did and I Forgave her...but I would never stay with someone has lied and deceived me with the worst betrayal known to Most BHs... Again..Im sorry to sound so pessimistic ...from what i have seen since My D-DAY and my D...Many start R with the best of intentions .....But very,very few succeed..because they will never forget what the Affair did to them and their families..We must all forgive...but I will never forget....as most here .. And there is NOTHING My WW could have done or any amends she would have tried to do would have fallen on deaf ears.. I accepted it but after that Every decision made with RE: to myself,,I made... We all have something in our lives this is a Dealbreaker...that was mine..And after My Divorce my forgiveness toward my WW was for me..not her . for.myself..and I am the better person for it.. Edited February 23, 2015 by badkarma2013 1 Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I read the same book a few weeks ago and to be honest prior to my wife's affair and prior to reading that book I thought forgiveness was something you gave to the other person. That is clearly the wrong type of thinking and I realized that for me letting go of the hurt and pain as part of that forgiveness was going to in the the end heal me whether my marriage held together or not. I realised my forgiving her did not absolve her of any blame or in anyway affect anything but my happiness. I've not told her that I've forgiven her yet becuase I'm not quite there yet but I'm well on my way and it feels good. Because what it has allowed me to do is let go of that constant mind numbing pain that was my reality just weeks ago. I was broken for a while but once I started accepting and letting go of all the bad thoughts my daily life started getting better immediately. I know I can live a happy life now with or without her. So for me forgiveness is a totally selfish act. It is for me and only me and it let's me move forward with a happy life regardless of what she does or does not do. Now I try to focus totally on what is good in my life and the things that make me happy and I plan to be selfish in that regard for a time to come. I deserve that. Link to post Share on other sites
Author katielee Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 once I started accepting and letting go of all the bad thoughts my daily life started getting better immediately. I know I can live a happy life now with or without her. . how do you let go though? What do you say to yourself? Link to post Share on other sites
merrmeade Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I'm re-reading Janis Spring's book How Can I Forgive You? - the courage to forgive, the freedom not to. I don't need to hurt him back, constantly remind him, or be angry. There is a call for making amends and restitution in this book. There is also a message that forgiveness need not be complete, but partial - enough to put together a good, authentic life. There is a focus on dignity and justice. The offender needs to be the source of the cure, not the source of ongoing trauma. I like this: You don't dismiss your need for restitution; you let him work with you to achieve restitution. But I really don't know what that would look like in my life.I have this book but couldn't excited about reading it. Maybe now. But then I read something like this by TnB: She instantly texted me a "everything ok?" I replied " Yes, sorry that picture really bothered me." She realized why and said " Ouch, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the timeline" and realize my WS would never anticipate something like that for my sake. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author katielee Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 I have this book but couldn't excited about reading it. Maybe now. But then I read something like this by TnB: and realize my WS would never anticipate something like that for my sake. Have HIM read the section on Transfer of Vigilance. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Selfish Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Have HIM read the section on Transfer of Vigilance. So you decided to give your husband more time to work on himself? Or are you moving ahead with forgiveness AND reconciliation and accepting he isn't going to change? Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 That is clearly the wrong type of thinking and I realized that for me letting go of the hurt and pain as part of that forgiveness was going to in the the end heal me whether my marriage held together or not. I realised my forgiving her did not absolve her of any blame or in anyway affect anything but my happiness. I like this. Of course, the kicker is that you probably WANTED to heal. Some people don't. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
drifter777 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I read the same book a few weeks ago and to be honest prior to my wife's affair and prior to reading that book I thought forgiveness was something you gave to the other person. That is clearly the wrong type of thinking and I realized that for me letting go of the hurt and pain as part of that forgiveness was going to in the the end heal me whether my marriage held together or not. I realised my forgiving her did not absolve her of any blame or in anyway affect anything but my happiness. I've not told her that I've forgiven her yet becuase I'm not quite there yet but I'm well on my way and it feels good. Because what it has allowed me to do is let go of that constant mind numbing pain that was my reality just weeks ago. I was broken for a while but once I started accepting and letting go of all the bad thoughts my daily life started getting better immediately. I know I can live a happy life now with or without her. So for me forgiveness is a totally selfish act. It is for me and only me and it let's me move forward with a happy life regardless of what she does or does not do. Now I try to focus totally on what is good in my life and the things that make me happy and I plan to be selfish in that regard for a time to come. I deserve that. Go back to that book and read about false forgiveness. The absolute, fundamental thesis of the book is that forgiveness for such a huge betrayal is something that must be earned by the betrayer. Yes, reaching forgiveness does mean letting go of the anger and urge for revenge and all that BUT you cannot get there on your own. You have granted her false forgiveness and you have done that for yourself. Its a temporary band-aid and something you can use to make it though the day. Great - because you need that kind of help right now. But this kind of forgiveness encourages rug-sweeping and denial and, more importantly, it will not last. Just read on this forum about the men who are suffering 20+ years after d-day to see what I mean. Every one of them regrets not facing their true emotions back when it all happened and finding peace of mind about the whole thing now is nearly impossible. Link to post Share on other sites
Author katielee Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 So you decided to give your husband more time to work on himself? Or are you moving ahead with forgiveness AND reconciliation and accepting he isn't going to change? I need to move forward with acceptance no matter what. Link to post Share on other sites
Selfish Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I need to move forward with acceptance no matter what. That is very true. Gentle question. Are you a person who has a strong need for being in control of a situation? Because I know often acceptance can be pretty darn impossible for people like that. Link to post Share on other sites
Leegh Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I think it takes time for our brains to process forgiving someone, and l think letting time pass can help. In addition, I think sometimes people do not have to forgive someone, for example, if someone does something so dastardly. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Author katielee Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Are you a person who has a strong need for being in control of a situation? Because I know often acceptance can be pretty darn impossible for people like that. I think so. Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I like this. Of course, the kicker is that you probably WANTED to heal. Some people don't. I think that hits the nail on the head. I did not want to live another day being tormented by the daemons that were her affair. Link to post Share on other sites
Author katielee Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 verybrokenman - how long have you been in recovery/known of the affair? Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Go back to that book and read about false forgiveness. The absolute, fundamental thesis of the book is that forgiveness for such a huge betrayal is something that must be earned by the betrayer. Yes, reaching forgiveness does mean letting go of the anger and urge for revenge and all that BUT you cannot get there on your own. You have granted her false forgiveness and you have done that for yourself. Its a temporary band-aid and something you can use to make it though the day. Great - because you need that kind of help right now. But this kind of forgiveness encourages rug-sweeping and denial and, more importantly, it will not last. Just read on this forum about the men who are suffering 20+ years after d-day to see what I mean. Every one of them regrets not facing their true emotions back when it all happened and finding peace of mind about the whole thing now is nearly impossible. It's absolutely not false forgiveness. False forgiveness happens when there is no communication and no intent on the WS to make things right. There is no blame shifting or rug sweeping with us. She is taking 100% of the blame and owns her affair. And she is busting her ass to fix her issues and make this up to me. We both know she can never repay the debt so for me to heal I have to let things go FOR ME. And yes I can absolutely get their by myself, that is a form of forgiveness talked about in the book when the WS is not there (or does not want) to assist in your healing. And believe me, the first couple of months I faced my emotions and maybe that is why I'm where I am today? I let it all out, the anger, the sadness, the rage. I let rip and never looked back. Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 how do you let go though? What do you say to yourself? It just happened, one day I just reached my limit and said that's it, I'm done. I'm done raging, I'm done crying, I'm just DONE. I'm moving forward and not looking back. And when I did that everything changed. I was happy and she starting making things right in earnest. Just a little background on how I got there. I had a moment of clarity about a month ago (DDay was Sept 2014) where I decided to just let it all go. I had been miserable since DDay. I had asked her the night before to leave and that was about the 3rd time I had asked he to leave and then relented. That weekend was terrible, we spent almost all day Friday and Saturday talking, arguing, crying, yelling. It was clearly the breaking point for me. That Saturday night I told her to pack and get out around 7pm and I was totally serious. I was done. We ended up talking until 3am, brutally honest talking. I think for her she got a hard dose of reality and everything changed. She said later that was when she realized she would do anything she needed to help me heal. And she has done her best since. Her entitlement issues were at the heart of her affair and she has done some things since that I'd never thought I'd see her do. I feel like she really see's herself now and how selfish she has been. I got about two hours sleep that night and the next morning I made the conscious decsion to just let it all go, no matter what I was done. It was not forgiveness, it was just a choice that I was not going to be unhappy from that point on. So that weekend changed everything. I had realized showing her my pain and rage was not doing a bit of good to make anything right and it was destroying me. I had spent the previous week taking for hours to my IC and she was helping me see that I was in control of how I felt. It was a choice. I let my wife know that weekend that going forward I expect change from her. I let her know she was driving the R from that point on. She had to earn it if she wanted the marriage to survive. And that weekend I made the choice that I was not going to let her issues and her in general determine my happiness. I stopped thinking about the affair. Anytime I pictured them together he was wearing something humiliating. Or he was having performance issues. I pictured him stuttering or being a loser in general. Anytime a trigger came up I asked myself "is it worth it" in terms of my happiness? So I've been able to suppress the negative thoughts and I'm focusing on my future. She can choose through her actions if she wants to go along. And if she does not, I'll be OK. I still have my health, my finances, my kids. Life is good and I hope at some point life will be good with her as well. My IC also told me to stop driving the R and if she picks up the slack then it will be a clear indication of where her heart lies. She has picked up the slack in a big way. She brings up the affair now to talk about it and she is taking the lead. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
VeryBrokenMan Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Gentle question. Are you a person who has a strong need for being in control of a situation? Because I know often acceptance can be pretty darn impossible for people like that. Are you not in complete control when you CHOOSE to move on? I'm the only one that has control of that. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 So here is a question: How in the world can one POSSIBLY adequately make amends or "earn" forgiveness for such a betrayal? 3 Link to post Share on other sites
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