"MAN" in relationships?

[Gloria25]

Some threads got me thinking....

 

While some people do not believe the women's movement/lib has not changed women's expectations in a man, some do.

 

I think women's lib took away men's purpose in life (to provide and protect) cuz now women make their own money and yes, it has made women a bit picker. Now, some women cuz theygot their own stuff, no longer want a man...they want a "pet". Some women, cuz some men now sit back and don't work to earn their own things, are so desperate that they shack up with guys and/or pay for bills/stuff for a guy cuz they think that's the only way to get a guy.

 

So, guys (and women may chime in), my question is - since you no longer have an incentive to get an education, career and/or earn your own stuff what do you think you need to bring to the table in a RL?

 

I mean, guys even "expect" women to go dutch on dates. Men are also not pursuing a college education like before. They no longer care to learn/do handiguy stuff.

 

Then, what pride do you have in yourself if you expect another person - especially a woman - to pay for/half for you? Wouldn't you feel crappy to tell your wife to drop off a newborn in daycare (to minimum wage workers who cannot replace a "mother") so your wife can make money to pay her "half" of the bills?

 

When I first was turning into a feminist, I resisted learning to cook cuz I felt it would "domesticate me". But when I left home and saw how unhealthy and costly eating out was )and how military chow could suck) - I learned to cook quick. And, I have learned to embrace my female desire to nurture family, friends, and guys I date through a decent meal, desserts, etc.

 

So, my point is, no matter how our roles are being changed buy certain groups in society, I think we still have inherent traits that people are moving away from - yet you need to embrace...and, what's wrong in being a "man" who handles his own business?

 

And sexual issues. With porn, guys are starting to diss women and/or suck in bed and/or keeping up with their apperance. They like porn cuz they don't have to work on getting, dating and even sexually performing/pleasing a woman. Last nite on Law and Order SUV, the show had some old guy and while I almost died laughing, dude had a point - which is, it's a man's "duty" to please his woman in the bedroom. Why not take pride and strength in your ability to "take" a woman and make her yours? Nah, hiding behind porn is easy and lazy,

 

Look, I don't want a pet...even though I am a strong woman and got my own stuff, I still need a man to make my "king" and in return, you will have your "queen". Cuz, I KNOW how to treat a man, but unfortunately, what's out there isn't cutting it if you ask me.

 

Men, what do you think you need to be to be a "man" and are required to bring to a RL?

[Sub]

Are we just talking single men here?

[Gloria25]

Are we just talking single men here?

 

Single and married.

[insert_name]

Its not for me to justify what I bring to a relationship, its for the woman to justify why she is worthy of dating me.

[blackcat777]

Gloria... your post really resonated with me in so many ways.

 

I do strongly feel that in women becoming independent, they've learned to act more masculine--which has a time, a place, and a function. Some elements of modern life are so cutthroat that it's in a woman's best interest to be able to have her own back if need be.

 

However, in the drive to earn this independence... I have seen and experienced shaming for feminine behavior. Taking joy in one's sensuality and emotions is often "inferior" or "weak."

 

I think true liberation is women being able to do whatever they want independently... *as* a woman, as a girly-girl (if they so choose), with all the emotions that are built in to the feminine experience. Dating coaches target strong, successful women (sure, in part because they have a lot of money ) because all that independence doesn't do anything for the strong attraction created by masculine/feminine polarity at the end of the day. Most of these women are so unconsciously stuck in masculine behavior, they forget how to switch back to being receptive to a strong man.

 

Patricia Allen writes about women (or the feminine energy) in relationships holding the veto power. If it feels immoral, hurtful, or somehow bad to you, say no, but other than that, let a man lead.

 

I took an exceptional interest in the psychology of masculine/feminine balance when I got involved with my boyfriend, who is younger than me, because I didn't want the power balance to tilt in a destructive way.

 

I defer to him whenever there is a decision to be made. I tell him he's the boss. At first, this was weird for me to do, because I'm used to gripping reins tightly in self-defense... so to speak... But it's an awesome dynamic to have. He's so happy, and my faith in his ability to make decisions seems to have an incredibly positive impact on his confidence. He loves to take the lead and it makes me so happy, we always have so much fun.

 

This doesn't mean I'm incapable of making decisions, or that I'm stupid/inferior, that he thinks I'm stupid/inferior (he loves me for my mind)... Rather than constantly butting heads with him, I let him be the man. Putting that kind of trust in a person works miracles for the relationship, in bonding us together. It's the opposite of nagging and bossing around, which will only drive guys away.

 

I do think a lot of men would rather retreat than continually fight with a woman or feel emasculated.

 

The subconscious and unconscious minds are so powerful, and they are animal. In this amazing society created by our neocortex capabilities, both men and women can perform equally; but the neocortex is brand new, built on top of much more ancient, powerful hardware. So many of male/female behaviors are dictated by ancient biology refined for maximizing survival and reproductive opportunities. I think there's a lot of wisdom in balancing the inner, ancient beast with modern man.

 

The wider the spectrum of human experiences to be had, the deeper the sense of fulfillment in life. We're angels and animals, all rolled into one. It's silly to deny our achievements... or our ancestry.

Edited February 26, 2015 by blackcat777

[Woggle]

Contrary to popular belief most men have no issue being with a strong intelligent or independent woman. I know many women like this who manage to have happy lasting relationships with men. That being said when we are constantly told how useless, disposable and unneeded and unwanted we are to women it doesn't exactly make men want to step up to the plate. When you put somebody in a no win situation don't be shocked when they figure it out and just stop trying and that is how many men feel.

 

We don't know what women want from us and the minute we think we have it figured the rules seem to change so a lot of us have dropped out of the modern relationship game all together because it feels like a race with no finish line. I am happily married but that is the feelings I hear from guys all the time. Men feel like they can't win no matter what they do and they are wrong no matter what so what's the point.

[carhill]

So, guys (and women may chime in), my question is - since you no longer have an incentive to get an education, career and/or earn your own stuff what do you think you need to bring to the table in a RL?

 

It never occurred to me that my education and job and business pursuits were meant to put a roof overhead and food on the table for a wife and child, rather for myself. Anyone else involved would simply be there. I never got that 'provider' social message at home even though my parents were a working father and SAHM. If I had known when a teenager that I'd never support anyone other than myself in life it wouldn't have changed anything I've done. Heck, I don't support anyone other than a cat now and I'm still going leather to concrete every day and no woman has been around this place for years and I don't expect another to happen by, ever.

 

Outlier? IDK.

[Hope Shimmers]

It never occurred to me that my education and job and business pursuits were meant to put a roof overhead and food on the table for a wife and child, rather for myself. Anyone else involved would simply be there. I never got that 'provider' social message at home even though my parents were a working father and SAHM. If I had known when a teenager that I'd never support anyone other than myself in life it wouldn't have changed anything I've done. Heck, I don't support anyone other than a cat now and I'm still going leather to concrete every day and no woman has been around this place for years and I don't expect another to happen by, ever.

 

Outlier? IDK.

 

You aren't an outlier. I too never thought about those sorts of things when choosing my path in life. I just chose what I wanted to do and made sure I could take care of myself.

 

I never understood the whole gender thing. 'King' and 'Queen'? Really? Why are there rules for what people should be expected to bring to the table, so to speak?

 

All of those years in college and med school were for me, not some man. I don't want or expect a man to take care of me. What I would want from a relationship is love, loyalty, and companionship. Right now I get those things from my dog, and it's much less of a hassle than trying to get it from men.

 

Also, not sure what cooking has to do with it. Do people still think that cooking is only for women in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant? Being an amateur chef is a hobby of mine and my goal one day is to go to chef school, (just for fun, not a career) although I am good at it now and am in the final stages of getting on 'Chopped' as a contestant. Lots of real men cook, too.

[Gloria25]

It never occurred to me that my education and job and business pursuits were meant to put a roof overhead and food on the table for a wife and child, rather for myself. Anyone else involved would simply be there. I never got that 'provider' social message at home even though my parents were a working father and SAHM. If I had known when a teenager that I'd never support anyone other than myself in life it wouldn't have changed anything I've done. Heck, I don't support anyone other than a cat now and I'm still going leather to concrete every day and no woman has been around this place for years and I don't expect another to happen by, ever.

 

Outlier? IDK.

 

One of my questions - sorta - is why some men think that the basic things we expect for a guy to have/be are asking too much of them cuz now we women have money and stuff.

 

I mean, I believe there was a time that women used to go to college till they find a guy to marry them and now it seems like men are the ones not advancing themselves and/or are abandoning basic male skills/qualities cuz they think women are supposed to go 50/50 (or pay all his bills) even when/if kids come along...and, cuz they rather hire a handiguy instead of break a nail.

[Sub]

I'm with the others in that getting a degree in order to pursue a career was never just a possibility. It was a given. And I figure that to be true with women as well. My son will go to college, or some form of higher education, with a career as the goal. But all of this is/was independent of having a relationship and eventually getting married. The two were never linked. I guess maintaining that career and being able to make a living is part of my commitment to my family. But its' initial pursuit was just about me.

 

All that said, as far as what I bring to an R: it's a balance between what I want and what I think the R needs from me. Example: I've never been a car guy. Never knew much about them. Had little interest. But recently, as our cars have aged and the thought of being charged an arm and a leg to get them fixed has made me cringe, I've taken the time to learn how to do basic maintenance and some repairs on my own. It's what I felt we needed, financially, so now I bring that to the R. I don't think it has anything to do with me being a male, although it's a stereotypical male thing. My wife is more than capable of learning the things I've learned.

[BluEyeL]

I guess both men and women in this day and age ought to support themselves.

 

Nobody has to support the other and now what people bring to a relationship is mutual support through life, love, friendship and intimacy. It's much better than to either be dependent of someone else for your livelihood or to HAVE to support someone just because of your gender.

[Ethan78]

I doubt that men would not go to college because they expect women to pay 50/50. I would like to see the research on that one. Maybe these are just coincidences.

 

As for the porn thing, again I don't know the statistics but the hardest part of meeting women in my experience are the women themselves. Many behave in a rude way and go to social places as if it's an ego trip. It is difficult for men to have the ability to deal with that harsh kind of rejection, but I am all for self-esteem issues being taught to young boys.

[toolforgrowth]

I truly get the the point you're trying to make, and I think you're doing your best to explain in a reasonable way. I commend you for that.

 

But how I'm interpreting your post is that it isn't about the quality of a man's character you're looking at per se, but more about what he can offer you to make your life easier. Can he cook? Can he fix the washing machine? Can he provide you financial security? I don't blame a woman for looking for those things, but it seems to be only about those things, and not about whether or not you truly enjoy simply spending time with him. In other words, the relationship has been reduced to a series of transactions, which I personally find degrading to both men and women.

 

I think women's lib took away men's purpose in life (to provide and protect)

Speaking as a man, I can tell you that my purpose in life is not provide for you. As far as I'm concerned, that's your job. It's your life, not mine. I'm under no obligation to give you anything, although I certainly don't mind giving for the sake of giving if I choose to. Speaking for me, my purpose in life is to live happily doing the things I enjoy, and to be the best father I can be for my daughter. A woman can come along for the ride if she chooses to (and my GF has), but no woman will ever become my sole focal point of existence. I view that as extremely unhealthy.

 

Now, some women cuz theygot their own stuff, no longer want a man...they want a "pet". Some women, cuz some men now sit back and don't work to earn their own things, are so desperate that they shack up with guys and/or pay for bills/stuff for a guy cuz they think that's the only way to get a guy.

Tons of men fall into this category too! They don't want a partner, they want arm candy, or a fluid receptacle, or a status enhancer. Or they naively believe that the only thing they have to offer a woman is the stuff he can provide for her. Who he or she is as a human being never enters the equation, and IMO, that should be the first criterion.

 

since you no longer have an incentive to get an education, career and/or earn your own stuff what do you think you need to bring to the table in a RL?

When I divorced my xWW, I had every incentive to further my career and earn my own stuff. Nobody else was going to do it for me. It was up to me and me alone to provide for my own happiness. That's what I bring to the table in a RL; a sense of self worth, self esteem, and value. I do not require external validation.

 

I mean, guys even "expect" women to go dutch on dates. Men are also not pursuing a college education like before. They no longer care to learn/do handiguy stuff.

I do not expect a woman to go dutch on dates, but I do expect her to reciprocate in other ways. Will she treat me to a milkshake? Will she give me a backrub? Will she simply be grateful that I take her out and show her a good time? Gratitude goes a long way.

 

I did not pursue a college education because I didn't want debt. Not only that, I'm highly intelligent and can learn pretty much anything I want without a professor lecturing me. Let me put it this way: I learned computer programming by reading books and by simply doing it. As a result, I've forged a pretty awesome career in IT. Why spend money learning when you can make money learning?

 

I'll be the first to admit I'm not handy, though. Never been interested in that. I can build a computer, no problem. But I've never had an interest in cars and the like. That's more a point of tastes and what I find fascinating than anything else.

 

Then, what pride do you have in yourself if you expect another person - especially a woman - to pay for/half for you? Wouldn't you feel crappy to tell your wife to drop off a newborn in daycare (to minimum wage workers who cannot replace a "mother") so your wife can make money to pay her "half" of the bills

I don't expect a woman to pay for half of me. I expect her to pay for herself. Again, I take my GF out and pay. I make a lot more money than her, and I don't want her limited income to stand in the way of us having a good time. But she's just finished school and is beginning an internship next month that will most likely lead to a pretty good career. She's doing this all on her own with no help from me whatsoever. I really admire that about her. And if we move in together, I do expect her to pay her way. I'll still probably make more money than her, and would have no issue with paying more towards the bills if and when we move in together, but I will most definitely expect her to contribute her fair share.

 

As for day care, it's not a matter of "her paying her own way". I think it's a matter of the family needs dual incomes to survive. The recession was bad and hit people hard, and they had to do what needed to be done to make ends meet. It might not be ideal, but I don't fault anyone for making that decision.

 

You gotta do what you gotta do to survive. That's what the issue was for me.

 

When I first was turning into a feminist, I resisted learning to cook cuz I felt it would "domesticate me". But when I left home and saw how unhealthy and costly eating out was )and how military chow could suck) - I learned to cook quick. And, I have learned to embrace my female desire to nurture family, friends, and guys I date through a decent meal, desserts, etc

I love cooking. It's one of my biggest hobbies, and I'm really awesome at it. I cooked three course meals for a family of four when I was married almost every night, in addition to making lunches and cooking breakfast on the weekends. When I was single, cooking for myself is how I survived. I couldn't afford to eat out, but I could cook the heck out of pretty simple ingredients and have it be healthy too.

 

I do the same kind of nurturing through cooking, but I don't view that as a female thing. I view that as a human thing. If I cook for you, it means I like you. But what would certainly make me stop cooking for a lady is if she said it was beneath her. I'm not going to literally sweat in front of an oven and hot stove doing an activity that a woman feels is beneath her. She can get herself McDonald's...and pay with it with her own money.

 

So, my point is, no matter how our roles are being changed buy certain groups in society, I think we still have inherent traits that people are moving away from - yet you need to embrace...and, what's wrong in being a "man" who handles his own business?

Bingo!

 

And what's wrong in being a "woman" who handles her own business? Or, to put it in a gender neutral way: What's wrong with a person who handles their own business?

 

Absolutely nothing. I expect any human being to be able to take care of themselves. I was not put on this earth to care for anyone, with the exception of my child.

 

And sexual issues. With porn, guys are starting to diss women and/or suck in bed and/or keeping up with their apperance. They like porn cuz they don't have to work on getting, dating and even sexually performing/pleasing a woman. Last nite on Law and Order SUV, the show had some old guy and while I almost died laughing, dude had a point - which is, it's a man's "duty" to please his woman in the bedroom. Why not take pride and strength in your ability to "take" a woman and make her yours? Nah, hiding behind porn is easy and lazy,

Porn for me is a sexual outlet I can use when I am alone. It has never replaced a woman. Sure, there are a lot of men who hide behind porn, but I believe that is a symptom of a greater issue; lack of self esteem and laziness certainly come to mind.

 

On the flip side, it's also a woman's "duty" to please her man in the bedroom too. That always has been, and always should be, a two way street. If you have no interest in pleasing your partner, don't be surprised if they ditch your a$$ (not you specifically, just in general).

 

Men, what do you think you need to be to be a "man" and are required to bring to a RL?

I need to be authentically me; an integrated male who knows what he likes, knows what he dislikes, has goals and ambitions, and takes care of himself. Who knows how to equally give as well as take. Who expects a woman to be authentically "her".

 

Let's turn it around, now: What do you think you need to be to be a "woman" and are required to bring to a RL?

 

Again, that always has been, and always will be, a two way street.

Edited February 27, 2015 by toolforgrowth

[newmoon]

something about this thread and the original OP and posts makes it seem as though no feminism and/or strong women ever existed in history. women have always had personal strength and power and were - likely - much stronger than men across the board and in many fields. they just didn't, in the way back - have the ability to demonstrate it because their options in life were so limited. modern women are not unique in any regard, except that we now have opportunities to showcase our strengths. it hasn't, imo, benefited us very much, because when you look at family structures, relationships and dating, the workplace, and gender expectations, we're probably worse off than before. so, eons ago you had to shut up and let the man lead - so what. at least it made for a nice family and wealth and a stable life with someone who took care of you. now, we have women who never marry, who live in poverty, who use their bodies as trophies and sales. i'm "feminist" in that i make my own money, have a career and speak my mind. but i sure as heck won't ever be "the man", i don't ask men out, and i like a man who can make decisions, take charge, and not put me in the driver's seat for him. sadly, as women's opportunities have increased, manliness has decreased, and we're left with a lot of boys and men who are now the weaker sex

[toolforgrowth]

something about this thread and the original OP and posts makes it seem as though no feminism and/or strong women ever existed in history. women have always had personal strength and power and were - likely - much stronger than men across the board and in many fields. they just didn't, in the way back - have the ability to demonstrate it because their options in life were so limited. modern women are not unique in any regard, except that we now have opportunities to showcase our strengths. it hasn't, imo, benefited us very much, because when you look at family structures, relationships and dating, the workplace, and gender expectations, we're probably worse off than before. so, eons ago you had to shut up and let the man lead - so what. at least it made for a nice family and wealth and a stable life with someone who took care of you. now, we have women who never marry, who live in poverty, who use their bodies as trophies and sales. i'm "feminist" in that i make my own money, have a career and speak my mind. but i sure as heck won't ever be "the man", i don't ask men out, and i like a man who can make decisions, take charge, and not put me in the driver's seat for him. sadly, as women's opportunities have increased, manliness has decreased, and we're left with a lot of boys and men who are now the weaker sex

 

Totally!

 

There are so many men I've encountered who were really, really weak. Hell, I used to be one of them. Just ask my xWW! It took her affair to really wake me up and bring out my internal manhood. It doesn't excuse her behavior, but when you get walked all over in the worst possible way, you either lie down and take it, or stand up and say "Hell no!" I chose the latter.

 

Be careful, though. Wanting a man who can make decisions and take charge while still wanting to be a truly independent woman who is in charge of her own life creates a very fine line we men have to walk. Sometimes, that line is so fine, it becomes far too much trouble to attempt to navigate. It's like perpetually walking on eggshells, and creates a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" scenario.

 

I think in this case, it's not so much that men have "lost their purpose", but more about women can sometimes want things that are occasionally in direct contradiction to each other. A man can go into a situation with the best of intentions and still get burned. It's understandable that some of them simply give up because the waters are just too turbulent to navigate.

[carhill]

One of my questions - sorta - is why some men think that the basic things we expect for a guy to have/be are asking too much of them cuz now we women have money and stuff.

I wish I could give a insightful answer to that question but I have essentially nothing. "Why" is a tough question in general and drilling it down to any commonalities amongst men is even tougher.

 

I recall my exW, humorously, saying one time that she liked that, when we started dating, I had a suit and silverware. True, I didn't finish college but that was because I fell in love with design-build and wanted to get my hands dirty rather than read books and punch computer cards.

 

TBH, the best why I can up with is that some men are reacting to the quantum changes in society and social roles instead of doing what they do and letting the chips fall where they may. Some may feel impotent (socially and financially, not sexually), in the face of the strides in those areas women have made in the past 2-3 generations and have pulled into a defensive posture to preserve their ego. However, all that is simply speculation as I have no reference in real life to base it on.

 

The men in my social circle are all my age or older and we've been pretty much pedal to the metal all our lives. Most are married, some to quite successful women. Some are quite wealthy and others are working stiffs like me. Regardless, without an exception that I can think of right now, we're all 'workers', even the retired ones. They just keep going. For the most part, their sons are the same way. Grandsons vary, which is perhaps your target demographic. I'll take a closer look at them as I encounter them. Most are around 25-30 now and starting to get married.

 

Hopefully the other men here can offer clearer insight.

[DukeNukem47]

Some threads got me thinking....

 

While some people do not believe the women's movement/lib has not changed women's expectations in a man, some do.

 

I do believe that it changed women...and it changed them for the worse.

 

I think women's lib took away men's purpose in life (to provide and protect) cuz now women make their own money and yes, it has made women a bit picker. Now, some women cuz theygot their own stuff, no longer want a man...they want a "pet". Some women, cuz some men now sit back and don't work to earn their own things, are so desperate that they shack up with guys and/or pay for bills/stuff for a guy cuz they think that's the only way to get a guy.

 

I agree.

 

So, guys (and women may chime in), my question is - since you no longer have an incentive to get an education, career and/or earn your own stuff what do you think you need to bring to the table in a RL?

 

Personally, I have a master degree and a good career.

 

I mean, guys even "expect" women to go dutch on dates. Men are also not pursuing a college education like before. They no longer care to learn/do handiguy stuff.

 

As I said, I have a college education. I also am usually willing to pay for dates (depending on the girl and the situation).

 

I don't really do "handiguy stuff", although it's relatively easy to learn. I live in an apartment and an oil change at Jiffy Lube is only like $40 so there's no reason to do that stuff.

 

Then, what pride do you have in yourself if you expect another person - especially a woman - to pay for/half for you? Wouldn't you feel crappy to tell your wife to drop off a newborn in daycare (to minimum wage workers who cannot replace a "mother") so your wife can make money to pay her "half" of the bills?

 

I wouldn't tell my wife to do that. My wife would be free to stay at home with the newborn child while I work.

 

When I first was turning into a feminist, I resisted learning to cook cuz I felt it would "domesticate me". But when I left home and saw how unhealthy and costly eating out was )and how military chow could suck) - I learned to cook quick. And, I have learned to embrace my female desire to nurture family, friends, and guys I date through a decent meal, desserts, etc.

 

I also cook. However, I avoid cooking for women because I don't believe that's my job (I do believe that it's her job).

 

So, my point is, no matter how our roles are being changed buy certain groups in society, I think we still have inherent traits that people are moving away from - yet you need to embrace...and, what's wrong in being a "man" who handles his own business?

 

I do handle my own business. However, I have a female assistant at work that helps me out a lot, gives me massages during the day, etc. She has also shaved and fed me once in front of our feminist coworkers just to piss them off (with great success). She's awesome!

 

And sexual issues. With porn, guys are starting to diss women and/or suck in bed and/or keeping up with their apperance. They like porn cuz they don't have to work on getting, dating and even sexually performing/pleasing a woman. Last nite on Law and Order SUV, the show had some old guy and while I almost died laughing, dude had a point - which is, it's a man's "duty" to please his woman in the bedroom. Why not take pride and strength in your ability to "take" a woman and make her yours? Nah, hiding behind porn is easy and lazy,

 

I watch porn a lot and I enjoy it. I actually do enjoy pleasing women in bed though. It appeals to my perfectionist nature (however, the anti-feminist in me deplores it....so I have a bit of a duality going on when I'm in bed with a woman. My ego wants to please her, but my intellect very much doesn't).

 

Look, I don't want a pet...even though I am a strong woman and got my own stuff, I still need a man to make my "king" and in return, you will have your "queen". Cuz, I KNOW how to treat a man, but unfortunately, what's out there isn't cutting it if you ask me.

 

I'm fine with treating a woman like a queen if she treats me like a king. Problem is that most women want to be treated like a queen without offering much in return.

 

Men, what do you think you need to be to be a "man" and are required to bring to a RL?

 

I know what I bring to the table. Most women, from what I've seen, don't bring much to the table. Why would I want a woman that makes money, doesn't cook or clean, and isn't nurturing? That's like having another version of me around. There's no point in that.

[insert_name]

Oh, btw, I do provide for women: I pay tax and national insurance- thats where it starts and ends

[Frank2thepoint]

I think women's lib took away men's purpose in life (to provide and protect) cuz now women make their own money and yes, it has made women a bit picker. Now, some women cuz theygot their own stuff, no longer want a man...

 

I mean, guys even "expect" women to go dutch on dates.

 

now it seems like men are the ones not advancing themselves and/or are abandoning basic male skills/qualities cuz they think women are supposed to go 50/50

 

I perceive this as a contradiction. Women are earning their own money, sometimes more than the man. Women often tout that they pay for their own things, as you've said, so it's only natural for a man to think that going dutch is fair. That's not an expectation of men, that's accepting the changing world.

 

But if women are earning their own money, yet complain about not having a man pay for a date, that's an entitlement issue and double standard.

 

 

my question is - since you no longer have an incentive to get an education, career and/or earn your own stuff what do you think you need to bring to the table in a RL?

 

I can only speak for myself, but I do have an incentive to get an education, a career, earn my own stuff, cook, clean, repair, and surprisingly wipe my own ass too. It's all for maintaining financial independence, for improving myself, for setting up a comfortable life for now and when I retire. I don't want to live out in the street or in a homeless shelter. I like stuffing my face with chocolate croissants or cheese puffs to sate my vices, so being relevant in the workforce and as a functioning member of society matters to me.

 

As for what I can bring to the table for a relationship, well I think it's a lot, such as emotional and physical companionship, adventure, and some goodly, humorous conversation. I'm not looking for the anachronistic helpless woman. I actually want a woman to have a job/career, education, and be able to support herself financially. What I want from a woman is the same as what I can offer.

 

 

And sexual issues. With porn, guys are starting to diss women and/or suck in bed and/or keeping up with their apperance. They like porn cuz they don't have to work on getting, dating and even sexually performing/pleasing a woman. Last nite on Law and Order SUV, the show had some old guy and while I almost died laughing, dude had a point - which is, it's a man's "duty" to please his woman in the bedroom. Why not take pride and strength in your ability to "take" a woman and make her yours? Nah, hiding behind porn is easy and lazy,

 

I may blow your mind with this one. I watched porn not just for entertainment, but as a learning experience. Porn was very educational for me when I was younger. Majority of the women I had sex with loved having sex with me because I wasn't selfish. I took what I learned and implemented it.

 

 

I do think a lot of men would rather retreat than continually fight with a woman or feel emasculated.

 

No self-respecting man wants to be with a shrew. It's just like no self-respecting woman wants to be with a misogynistic man.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Oh, btw, I do provide for women: I pay tax and national insurance- thats where it starts and ends

And women are providing for men (and women) in just the same way!!

[Rejected Rosebud]

I don't get it at all, I am happy that women gained equal rights before I was even born so I can choose how to live my life and vote, own property, not get paid less than a man for the same work, and all that stuff, if I wanted to get in a traditional marriage where I stayed home and the guy had to put the roof over my head and food on the table I think that is still happening. I don't want to though, my guy doesn't want that kind of relationship, and we are both having good fulfilling work lives and also relationship with each other. Maybe it was easier (mostly for men) when everybody could count on each other to act a certain way, have certain jobs and family roles because of their gender but I would hate that.

[BetrayedH]

Hmm. I don't have much of an opinion on women's lib, feminism, and whatnot. Women are all different. I treat women as equals and always have.

 

My (ex)wife has a domineering personality. I was fine with deferring to her on the things that mattered to her but it certainly got old. I'd also say that she lost respect for me over time. It was an interesting dichotomy. She wanted the power but ultimately resented me for allowing her to have it.

 

In my current relationship, my GF very much would prefer to be submissive in just about every facet of life. She prefers that I be the man of the household and even to be in charge of her, to an extent. For me, I'm more expressive about it in the bedroom.

 

What I expect from myself as a man in a relationship is to have my proverbial sh*t together. I've never expected a woman to support me. I suppose that I'd like a scenario where my sole income could supoort the entire family unit but I don't think I'm alone in that struggle. The 50s are long gone.

 

Interestingly enough, while my GF probably sounds like she's a helpless waif, that's not the case. She's got 25 years into a successful career and runs her own small company on the side. I think she definitely just fits the "old" stereotypical gender-role side of things.

 

I suppose I am more adaptive. I can do what works well for the relationship. But I do know that I won't be subservient ever again.

Edited February 27, 2015 by BetrayedH

[StanMusial]

I just don't participate. Never dated a feminist nor would I. I guess I might be effected indirectly due to society being screwed up but I just carve my own way and tune out the bullshlt.

[Shepp]

Nothing about my education, my skill set or my life choices was based on what women want/need/expect in a relationship.

 

It was all about living a life I was proud of. So a changing in what women want changes nothing!

 

 

Feminism is feminism, i'm all for equality. And my wife is very much about equality.

 

But that's more a political or "social" deal really, it doesn't play a massive part in our relationship. Our relationship is simply that, the way two people work together!

I built the house, I fix the cars, I mow the lawn, I do the cooking, I make her laugh, I'll support her always, I love her!

She does the hoovering, she does the shopping we need from town, and she does anything else she puts her mind to be it painting, putting up the tent, or breaking up a dog fight, whatever she so desires!

And we make big decisions together same as we share childcare and lighting the fire!

 

She's her own, independent person! And that's great! Sexy as hell! I've never wanted a submissive women and likewise I already have a fantastic mum I don't need another women in my life to treat me like a kid! I'm a sprouting guy and to me, life's a game - and I want a teammate to play it with! Not deadwood, not a boss, a teammate!!shes not relent on me and she makes me proud, but that doesn't mean I have no place or that she doesn't need me! She needs me to rein her in sometimes, and to take care of all the little things that make her big ideas happen....I need her for the same deal - too call me out when I'm being stubborn for stubborns sake and to rock my world just a little when I'd normally dig my heels in!

We're better together - no doubt - but we're functional people apart!

[ltjg45]

I do think a lot of men would rather retreat than continually fight with a woman or feel emasculated.

 

That is definitely true for me.

 

While I don't know if I am capable of loving a woman (since I have yet to get into a relationship), I know I am not a fighter.

 

The moment a woman gives me any form of an attitude or shows the slightest hint of entitlement, I will do all I can to cut down or remove all contact with her.

 

Now that I think about it, I would do the same thing to other guys too.

 

I just don't have any tolerance for that nonsense.

 

Contrary to popular belief most men have no issue being with a strong intelligent or independent woman. I know many women like this who manage to have happy lasting relationships with men. That being said when we are constantly told how useless, disposable and unneeded and unwanted we are to women it doesn't exactly make men want to step up to the plate. When you put somebody in a no win situation don't be shocked when they figure it out and just stop trying and that is how many men feel.

 

We don't know what women want from us and the minute we think we have it figured the rules seem to change so a lot of us have dropped out of the modern relationship game all together because it feels like a race with no finish line. I am happily married but that is the feelings I hear from guys all the time. Men feel like they can't win no matter what they do and they are wrong no matter what so what's the point.

 

I get that feeling at work. At my Walmart store, I am the only male overnight cashier there. Been like that for at least a year. I work in the cigarette lane which is farther away from the other open registers during the overnight shift and on the other side of the front lanes so I get my own "personal space". Everyone else is female and all of them is older. The drama and entitlement there is pretty high along with their attitudes. As a result, I don't communicate with them often outside of work-related issues.

 

To them (and especially my 2 female supervisors), I am just a pet. Any idea that I may want to advance on (like visiting another country), they mock me for it.

 

Most women around me have that same attitude when they check out in my line. My mother does the same as well.

 

This is why, even though I may see an attractive woman by herself, I tell myself not to even bother. At the end, I may regret the experience even if I do succeed. It's perhaps for the best for her anyway.