Aquarius woman

March 4, 2015

You might be surprised at what knowledge and experience some members may have regarding this and other disorders. Why do you presume to dictate what topics are allowed or disallowed? You have no standing whatsoever to shut down the discussion.

And what is it about BPD that makes some females so queasy? If this were a discussion about a man with narcissistic traits or alcoholism there wouldn't be any objections––they'd all be piling on and telling her to leave his dysfunctional ass.

So, do you actually think that we should say nary a word, and leave the OP in the dark as to the implications... because it might not be, because we aren't licensed clinicians, or because you identify with it in some way?

Sigh...why am I not surprised that the reaction to a voice of opposition is to immediately blame-shift by throwing the BPD diagnosis around...again!

I don’t see anyone shutting anyone down. I see people challenging the validity of and reasoning behind suggesting and focusing on BPD. Theories invite scrutiny and challenge.

It’s not “queasiness” or about BPD. It’s pointing out logic and bases that undermine the suggestion of BPD or any PD. On an internet forum. On an unhappy S.O.'s report.

Advising someone to break up because of behavior or discontent is different from suggesting that the S.O. has one particular PD and then, though admitting the invalidity of the analysis, going through an analysis based upon the biased report of a discontented partner (not a slur, all people are biased about partners and are affected by their own emotions). I don’t see anyone here saying, “OP, you should stay in this relationship.” I see some folks saying, “Don’t make a mental health determination in their way.”

hmmmmm… kind of McCarthy-esque there.

I do identify with this process. I had an ex who insisted that I had BPD. 3 therapists and my friends and family said I was fine, was being gaslighted, and to just break up with him and go NC. And in a lovely twist of fate, he was later diagnosed bipolar 1 with psychotic elements after his law partners had him checked into a psych ward. While purely anecdotal, it’s a great story and the flip side of the BPD analysis suggestion: I was fine; he wasn’t. So, my personal experience is that sometimes people who label and pathologize have an agenda and are blind to themselves.

To go back to Occam and OP, there are non-pathological explanations for what OP reported, including that his exGF is a business owner with children who was busy, but flirting and pining for him, and was not ready to “commit” maybe because she has too much going on, is recently divorced, financial issues, not sure about OP, being averse to marriage, etc.

Anyway, OP broke up with her 5 days ago, which is great. Whether it’s because she has BPD, is an Aquarian, is a busy business owner with children, their moon signs oppose, or any other reason, it wasn’t working for him.

BlueIris, your experience is EXACTLY one of the reasons why bringing up all of these disorders is so dangerous!! I'm sorry you had to go through that. Thank you for sharing, because I think this is one of the dangers of bringing up a partner who isn't even here to defend herself/himself.

Anyone who looks at their partner under such a microscope, but can't consider his or her own shortcomings is probably having some difficulties facing reality in some ways.

Actually, when the FIRST thing or pretty much ONLY thing someone does is to pick out the OP's original post and say "have you considered (insert diagnosis here)?" It bugs me, whether it be narcissism, BPD, bipolar, ADD, ODD, etc etc

The reason is that most of us who are honest and human, when we have conflict with people, want to A) find some reason it is the other person's problem and/or B) find some reason said other person can't help it. A diagnosis is handy for those.

I can spout lots of stats. I have a pretty good education regarding psychology. And I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last month. I'm still not going to push someone I have never met to consider an illness in someone else I have also never met about whom I am getting information second or third hand. Like I said, I have lost a lot of weight recently, I pee a lot, I got shaky the last time I was at Wal Mart. No one here would suggest I go try to buy some insulin.

Edited to add: If someone here IS a psychiatrist or psychologist and is doing that, that is actually WORSE, if they have bothered to read their ethics book

Yes, yes, yes! It's like the very first thing some posters post...all the time.

And there seems to be an element of misogyny sometimes. Couples fight sometimes, and couples break up. But we only hear one side on LS. And that side can be very biased about the events that led to the break up. But when a story is posted here, others seem to respond like any woman who has emotions or gets angry at anything is automatically disordered! I think this pattern of blaming (women especially) has been going on for eons now. Old habits die hard, I guess.

Ultimately, OP, I hope you recover from this break up a stronger man for it. The trials we face in life can help us grow in unexpected ways, though the experience can be painful. It'll take time and patience. At the end of the day, I hope you'll be able to recognize how the relationship deteriorated and what YOU can do to prevent that from happening in the future. I say this because I wish peace and happiness for your life, I want you to flourish in your life, and I hope you gain all the tools you need to do so. Can you recognize flags in future women you meet and avoid women like that in the first place? Can you communicate your wants and needs in a relationship before you feel confused and vulnerable? Can you recognize your own worth that you don't deserve to be treated poorly, and that there's nothing confusing about that? These are all things I hope for you.

I don't think you'll get there by ONLY focusing on the negatives in your ex. I don't think you are, but I just don't want you to get swept down that path by things you might read on the internet.

Best of luck.

March 4, 2015

That's the problem! Most people here are not trained professionals. There are many things about the diagnosis that you just don't understand. So it doesn't look, swim, or quack like a duck because you don't fully understand what all goes into the diagnosis.

Please...this is not a personal attack. I'm just seeing this major trend on LS of assuming everyone is BPD. And instead of focusing on helping the OP better his life, the OP gets wrapped up in the blame-shifting behavior of a victim.

But nobody here is diagnosing, only discussing and making the OP aware that a recognizable behavioral pattern exists, and what it looks like. Nobody is saying this is what it is or this is what you do. But yea, in this thread particularly and in most things generally, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's not a hippopotamus.

Edited March 5, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed ad hominem references

March 4, 2015

I'm just seeing this major trend on LS of assuming everyone is BPD.... the reaction to a voice of opposition is to immediately blame-shift by throwing the BPD diagnosis around...again!

Pie, you've repeatedly accused me of "assuming everyone is BPD" and "diagnosing" BPD for the past year and a half. During that time, I've repeatedly challenged you to quote just one sentence of mine making such an absurd claim. Of course, you've been unable to find even one statement where I've declared someone to "have BPD" because your misrepresentations of my views are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I've actually said. In this thread, for example, I stated the following in posts 11 and 13 above:

"At issue is whether she exhibits [bPD] traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. " What part of "I cannot know" do you not understand, Pie?
"Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the criteria for "having BPD. " What part of "Only a professional" do you not understand?
Importantly, we are not suggesting your GF has a full-blown PD. Only a professional can determine that." What part of "we are not suggesting" do you not understand?

Anyone who looks at their partner under such a microscope, but can't consider his or her own shortcomings is probably having some difficulties facing reality in some ways.

There you go again attacking me and other members -- who happen to disagree with you -- as having difficulty seeing reality. Indeed, in the past two weeks, you've claimed I and other members are mentally "unstable" and "crazy," and that we must have "mental health problems." I describe these personal attacks on other members, and provide cites to your actual posts, in my 3/2/15 post. Similarly, I describe the way in which you falsely attribute outrageous statements to other members in my 8/2/13 post.

Bringing up all of these disorders is so dangerous!!

Hundreds of mental health centers and hospitals disagree with you. They have put this information on their public websites for the lay public to read. They know that the public is capable of learning how to spot these BPD warning signs. They also know that, when the public is able to spot warning signs, they are far more likely to avoid toxic relationships and to seek professional help when they need it -- and will do so far more quickly. I will give you just a few examples:

When a story is posted here, others seem to respond like any woman who has emotions or gets angry at anything is automatically disordered! I think this pattern of blaming (women especially) has been going on for eons now.

Pie, what has been going on "for eons now" -- specifically, for the last year and a half -- is your attacking the other members' intentions when you're unable to support your arguments against them. As I've explained in numerous threads, the only large-scale study of BPD prevalence (pub. 2008) found that its incidence is THE SAME for both men and women. BPD discussions therefore having nothing to do with being anti-women as you say.

Until you develop the ability to read minds at great distances, please stay on topic and stop making personal attacks on other members by questioning their intentions. My experience is that nearly all LS members are well intentioned regardless of whether they agree with me or not.

March 4, 2015

Pie, you've repeatedly accused me of "assuming everyone is BPD" and "diagnosing" BPD for the past year and a half. During that time, I've repeatedly challenged you to quote just one sentence of mine making such an absurd claim. Of course, you've been unable to find even one statement where I've declared someone to "have BPD" because your misrepresentations of my views are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I've actually said. In this thread, for example, I stated the following in posts 11 and 13 above:

"At issue is whether she exhibits [bPD] traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. " What part of "I cannot know" do you not understand, Pie?
"Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the criteria for "having BPD. " What part of "Only a professional" do you not understand?
Importantly, we are not suggesting your GF has a full-blown PD. Only a professional can determine that." What part of "we are not suggesting" do you not understand?
There you go again attacking me and other members -- who happen to disagree with you -- as having difficulty seeing reality. Indeed, in the past two weeks, you've claimed I and other members are mentally "unstable" and "crazy," and that we must have "mental health problems." I describe these personal attacks on other members, and provide cites to your actual posts, in my 3/2/15 post. Similarly, I describe the way in which you falsely attribute outrageous statements to other members in my 8/2/13 post.

Hundreds of mental health centers and hospitals disagree with you. They have put this information on their public websites for the lay public to read. They know that the public is capable of learning how to spot these BPD warning signs. They also know that, when the public is able to spot warning signs, they are far more likely to avoid toxic relationships and to seek professional help when they need it -- and will do so far more quickly. I will give you just a few examples:

NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) disagrees with you. NIMH provides a description of the nine BPD defining traits to the lay public (i.e., people like Disrespected, Sal, and me) at NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder .
Mayo Clinic disagrees with you. It educates the public about BPD traits at Borderline personality disorder: Symptoms - MayoClinic.com .
National Mental Health Association disagrees with you. NMHA (aka, Mental Health American) explains BPD traits to the public on its website at Mental Health America: Borderline Personality Disorder .
U.S. House of Representatives disagrees with you. House Resolution 1005 was unanimously passed by the House in April 2008. It recognizes the month of May as Borderline Personality Disorder Awareness Month. The text of the resolution says it is meant "as a means of educating our nation about this disorder, the needs of those suffering from it, and its consequences." See BPD Awareness Month .
Pie, what has been going on "for eons now" -- specifically, for the last year and a half -- is your attacking the other members' intentions when you're unable to support your arguments against them. As I've explained in numerous threads, the only large-scale study of BPD prevalence (pub. 2008) found that its incidence is THE SAME for both men and women. BPD discussions therefore having nothing to do with being anti-women as you say.

Until you develop the ability to read minds at great distances, please stay on topic and stop making personal attacks on other members by questioning their intentions. My experience is that nearly all LS members are well intentioned regardless of whether they agree with me or not.

I am familiar with some of those links but not all. Can you show me where the agencies referenced in those links state that they intend of a list to be used by laypeople to diagnose?

March 4, 2015

For the record, I agree that the OP's GF has several of the traits on the "list." I just know how much damage a false diagnosis can do, so I am very cautious about doling psychological assessment out via the internet. If I were an attorney, I would never give official legal advice to strangers either. Just not a good practice.

I had a teacher friend who taught special education and had a specialty in Dyslexia. Coincidentally, she thought every child with reading problems had dyslexia. It's a common phenomenon, but can be damaging.

Edited March 5, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed retaliatory comment

March 4, 2015

But nobody here is diagnosing, only discussing and making the OP aware that a recognizable behavioral pattern exists, and what it looks like. Nobody is saying this is what it is or this is what you do. But yea, in this thread particularly and in most things generally, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's not a hippopotamus.

[/b]

We’re raising valid issues that are part of any serious discussion. Since no one here is an authority or has credentials other than personal experience (no special authority is allowed here), “discrediting” isn’t possible. There are some really good points being made about raising psychological analysis on an internet forum (based on the report of an unhappy partner- my focus). On the point of diagnosis versus suggestion, we should also acknowledge the Power of Suggestion, which I looked up: Suggestion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I lived through having a partner suggest I had a mental illness when I didn’t. My ex “merely” suggested, so I’ve been there. With scholarly calm and authority, he suggested I MIGHT have a problem and then proceeded to discuss it and provide analysis as though someone HAD DECIDED that I had a problem. No one had decided that but him. It’s an amazing mind-f**k, aka gaslighting. When people challenged his suggestions or discussed his actions in the relationship, he then analyzed them too- my friends, family and therapists. He’d fire therapists and find me a “new, better” one. They all said the same thing- get away from this guy! I’d go to them because I was suggestible and truly wanted to find out if I was. This all took place in a mere 6 months! He even deemed my ending our relationship as my “devaluing him” and “painting him black.” What a mess.

Psychological suggestion and analysis by a partner had a terrible effect on me and my family, so, beware of a partner who insists- or merely suggests and then analyzes - that you’re mentally ill. And beware of doing it yourself to a partner. No one can be objective about their own relationship. Period.

Also just a simple direct question:

I am familiar with some of those links but not all. Can you show me where the agencies referenced in those links state that they intend of a list to be used by laypeople to diagnose?

Edited March 5, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Edited out the gender bashing material that was quoted and retorts to the references

March 5, 2015

Can you show me where the agencies referenced in those links state that they intend of a list to be used by laypeople to diagnose?

As I explained above, Autumn, the purpose of providing warning signs for various diseases and mental disorders is NOT for laypeople to do a diagnosis but, rather, to protect themselves and their loved ones by recognizing when they or a family member may have a serious problem. This information thus is provided primarily to motivate folks to see a professional. A few examples:

National Institute of Mental Health identifies the BPD symptoms and states "To help a friend or relative you can...learn about mental disorders, including borderline personality disorder, so you can understand what your friend or relative is experiencing...." See NIMH: What is BPD?
Centre for Addiction and Mental Health provides a free booklet, on its public website, called "Borderline Personality Disorder: an Information Guide for Families." See CAMH BPD Booklet.

WebMD provides a detailed description of BPD on its public website so the lay public can recognize when it is time to seek a professional evaluation. Specifically, it states, "if you think that you or someone you know may have borderline personality disorder, see a doctor. Don't try to diagnose yourself."

National Health Service of England gives detailed description of warning signs for BPD and over 800 other disorders and diseases on its public website. It states, "The site is funded by the Department of Health. It is committed to providing objective and trustworthy information and guidance on all aspects of health and healthcare.... NHS Choices is the UK’s biggest health website. It provides a comprehensive health information service to help put you in control of your healthcare." See NHS Choices.

Newport Academy, a Mental Health Treatment Center for teens, gives a detailed description of BPD warning signs on its public website. It also states, "Parents who suspect that their child may have borderline personality disorder should watch for the following signs and symptoms of the condition...." See Newport Academy List of BPD Traits.

March 5, 2015

Thanks for the resources. I had some of them but not all, and it is always good to have more resources.

March 5, 2015

I lived through having a partner suggest I had a mental illness when I didn’t. My ex “merely” suggested, so I’ve been there. With scholarly calm and authority, he suggested I MIGHT have a problem and then proceeded to discuss it and provide analysis as though someone HAD DECIDED that I had a problem. No one had decided that but him. It’s an amazing mind-f**k, aka gaslighting.

I am sorry that happened to you, and your explanation does help in understanding the motivation underlying your objections. However, Downtown and myself have both been careful not to speculate or apply a label to an individual. I think that's about all you can expect.

Basically what you're asking is that the disorder not be mentioned at all, or at least not in a thread such as this where someone has described the pattern... because you view it as being too suggestive based on your experience.

I'm sorry that it displeases you, but I simply do not consider BPD (or any other) to be a protected class and therefore disallowed as a topic of discussion.

Edited March 5, 2015 by salparadise

March 5, 2015

I am sorry that happened to you, and your explanation does help in understanding the motivation underlying your objections. However, Downtown and myself have both been careful not to speculate or apply a label to an individual. I think that's about all you can expect.

Basically what you're asking is that the disorder not be mentioned at all, or at least not in a thread such as this where someone has described the pattern... because you view it as being too suggestive based on your experience.

I'm sorry that it displeases you, but I simply do not consider BPD (or any other) to be a protected class and therefore disallowed as a topic of discussion.

But he didn’t describe a pattern. C’mon, look at what was actually said.

He described 5 things, all by his interpretation, conclusions:

-she wants me with her, then she doesn't

-pushes me away when we spend a lot of time together

-she wants space but gets upset if I don't contact her

-doesn't want to commit, but says she loves me and Im the only one for her

-argues about stupid things

3 are related to spending time together. She wants to spend time together and then doesn’t, and then she wanted him to stay in contact, touch base, when they’re not spending time together. She’s a mom and business owner= busy. So how much time did OP want? How much do these people actually spend together? What are their work schedules and parenting demands? And someone jumps to… “May I suggest BPD?” that’s nuts!

1 in which he says she won’t commit. What does that mean? She said she loves him, and is exclusive. So what was he asking for and not getting? Did she turn down a proposal? No, no…. that’s a sign of BPD, even though we don’t know what she did or what he wanted, or what their circumstances were.

1 in which he says he thinks her reasoning in their arguments is stupid. (devaluing?) That’s a wash- she’d likely report that his reasoning during their arguments was stupid- or something nicer than that.

C’mon… there was no basis to suggest BPD. This is just logic.

I’m not sorry I went through a nutcase thinking I had BPD, not now. I see BS much better now. So what is your motivation?

Frankly, if this is psychological analysis or even logical or insightful analysis, I’m going with his original theory: astrological synastry was the better explanation!

March 5, 2015

So what is your motivation?

Frankly, if this is psychological analysis or even logical or insightful analysis, I’m going with his original theory: astrological synastry was the better explanation!

He said, "I'm just a simple guy and can't figure this **** out." He was bewildered by the divergencies in her feelings and behavior. Is what he described definitive, no. Is it consistent with the pattern, yes. He may be describing the push-pull, idealization and devaluation, fear of abandonment and engulfment. I believe there is cause to recognize the possibility, although not to draw conclusions.

We just disagree. It's really that simple. I believe in science but not astrology, so I think you saying that astrology is a better explanations is just ridiculous, but that's just my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

What's my motivation?

I just think he needs to be aware of the pattern and the possibility. I was married for 23 years to a woman who exhibited the pattern. She wasn't diagnosed because she didn't take the MMPI, and is vehemently opposed to ever setting foot in a psychologists office. She's scared to death of peeling back the layers to see what's under the hood. I stayed in therapy for two years during and after the dissolution of the marriage. I can spot BS a mile away too, and I have a fairly in-depth understanding of the cluster B disorders, both from academic study, life experience, and an additional qualification that I don't talk about on here.

Your argument would be more persuasive if you simply said that you don't believe there is enough evidence to support the possibility. Going on the attack and generalizing about all discussion of BPD or all mental health topics looks more like an agenda.

March 5, 2015

Well cancer guys are more complicated and messed up if you ask me!

You are loving and fun when you want to

and you are distant and ignoring when you want to

You are bi Polar in disguise

and everyone who deals with cancer knows that!

March 5, 2015

He said, "I'm just a simple guy and can't figure this **** out." He was bewildered by the divergencies in her feelings and behavior. Is what he described definitive, no. Is it consistent with the pattern, yes. He may be describing the push-pull, idealization and devaluation, fear of abandonment and engulfment. I believe there is cause to recognize the possibility, although not to draw conclusions.

We just disagree. It's really that simple. I believe in science but not astrology, so I think you saying that astrology is a better explanations is just ridiculous, but that's just my opinion. You're entitled to yours.

What's my motivation?
I just think he needs to be aware of the pattern and the possibility. I was married for 23 years to a woman who exhibited the pattern. She wasn't diagnosed because she didn't take the MMPI, and is vehemently opposed to ever setting foot in a psychologists office. She's scared to death of peeling back the layers to see what's under the hood. I stayed in therapy for two years during and after the dissolution of the marriage. I can spot BS a mile away too, and I have a fairly in-depth understanding of the cluster B disorders, both from academic study, life experience, and an additional qualification that I don't talk about on here.

Your argument would be more persuasive if you simply said that you don't believe there is enough evidence to support the possibility. Going on the attack and generalizing about all discussion of BPD or all mental health topics looks more like an agenda.

I can agree that going after every mention of a disorder can sound like an agenda.

I can also see that when the go-to response to one or two posts is a suggestion of a disorder, that might appear to be an agenda as well.

I also apologize for reacting to your very personal suggestion that I have a disorder based on a post I made in another thread badly. Perhaps the answer is to not attack someone personally by suggesting they have a disorder based on a post elsewhere that has already been clarified.

Edited March 5, 2015 by autumnnight

March 5, 2015

As it appears the thread starter has resolved their issue and any disputes have been tabled, we'll call this one done and thank everyone for their contributions.

Aquarius woman

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