Appreciate the OW´s take on the potential gains/losses of an A.

[MadameB]

New here and originally posted this onto the "Infidelity" section, however would most appreciate the advice of any OW who may take the time to read this....

 

Greatly appreciate any enlightened comments to my situation with a MM manager.

 

I am currently in a relationship of over ten years. This has over the course of the last five years evolved into more of a brother/sister relationship, we cuddle, we kiss, its just devoid of any sexual contact. We have discussed this many times, He has had this problem in past relationships and its , I have initaited these discussions, however, we have yet to make any conclusions together, I do believe he avoids this ... My partner is 14 years older, I am 29 and very sexually aware. We have broken up once in the past due to my infidelity (I admitted it immediately and broke up with my partner) we did though get back together and I promised myself that I would never risk this relationship again.

 

I have been employed at a company for just under a year now and am attracted to my indirect manager. He has recently gotten married to his partner of many years, has very young children, and due to my own situ, I have never, conciously, expressed my attraction to him.

 

However, he is witty, charming and, in a nutshell, has an air about him that made me think we would could have a breathtakingly, smutty good time together. He is older than me, I guess he is in his late thirties.

 

At a work event, ahh how appropriate, his behaviour towards me was bizarre. Firstly approaching a colleague and I, wrapping his arms around my hips as I was sitting there whilst speaking to my colleague, my colleague left to get drinks, and he then started to tell me how fantastic it was to have me in the company, etc. During the course of the evening, he then said it was a damn shame he was married, and if he werent, well he didnt divulge .. I interpreted this as if I meant that I was flirting with him the whole evening (which I was not, I spent most of the evening on the dancefloor) and said well it was a shame that he was married however I was also attached (hence: nothing would come of it anyway). I assumed that this was all alcohol fuelled and thought nothing more of it. I approached him with a work related query a few days afterwards, he was so distant and cold, which practically forced me to tease him a little re what must have been a massive hangover the next day.

 

Nothing more came of this, he kept up the cold front, I just thought he was ashamed a little for being so drunk that night and we remained professional.

 

At the next work event, yes we have loads, we all sat as a group for dinner and got more drunk. I was very aware of him "checking" who I was talking to during the course of the evening, joining the groups I was with for a while and then speaking to nearly everyone in that group other than me. As we all wanted to move onto somewhere a little more lively he then came over to me, took my hand and gave me a "knowing" smile. As the evening progressed, we did flirt with each other and ultimately, and of course completely coincidently, were the last two left in the club. Walking to the taxi stand (quite a distance), I was hounding off his attempts to kiss me, he asked if had an affinity towards each other (I confirmed) I then relented and kissed him, I find him as sexy as hell, before breaking it off and telling him that, due to both of our situations, this could never, ever, evolve... typically indesicive of me ...

 

Concluding this evening, I was completely confused, he did not call me, which was understandable as I did tell him that I did not want this, however, I was secretly hoping he would. After two weeks I called him and asked, god how dramatic, if we could meet that very evening. He could not, he had a family related event he had to attend, I did not ask for any other evening and ended the call.

 

We were then both assigned a one day external meeting together. Both of us remained very professional (completely bizarre) until after the meeting. Aside from a few knee and hand brushes over dinner on his part, he did not make any other moves. Ultimately, on the journey home, I expressed to him how confused I was regarding what had happened and kissed him, we kissed contently and constantly for two hours, just stopping to breathe. On the journey to my office, he did attempt to molest me a few times which I brushed off, though I understand his behaviour, he is a guy and the kiss ultimately was like a whole array of fireworks going off for both of us.

 

I asked him if he had done this before, he said to me it would make no difference what he told me because I would not believe him anyway. His answer stems from a rather nasty comment I made to him regarding his fidelity on the way to the taxi stand after our second encounter. However I get the impression that this may be the first time he has done this, though I do not know for certain.

 

Anyway, as he is older and I am assuming he is a serial cheater. I asked him for some guidelines: Firstly, we are following our feelings, true. Secondly, when this ends he wants us both on the same side of the fence, understandable that he would from his position. I have expressed to him my concern that if we are to "evolve" that I am afraid of my feelings growing for him, which I can foresee. He told me I should enjoy the moment and made then some remark about a novel he had read where it ended in the OW and MM getting together after a very long year affair. I was visibly shocked after that comment, maybe he´ll start calling me Camilla next ....

 

I cannot stop thinking of how smuttily good this is. Should I let this evovle for the sake of a good f$§k at the risk of losing myself in this damn sexy MM?

[newby]

NO

[MadameB]

Update 06th April: Things have cooled down slightly since writing the above, weeks have passed since our last "encounter". We have both been on periodical projects in other countries in Europe which have taken up lots and lots of time, and have had no "work related" opportunity (its early stages and I do not want to privately call him and ask for a "date") to liase. He has though given me a few work related calls now that we are both back in the uk. He has his own office and can speak freely on the phone, I share - he knows this. He does the compliment thing and wishes an office opportunity would arise so that he could just see me (meaning at meetings - we do not see each other normally as both of us are based on different floors of a very large building) and uses these calls as an opportunity to "hear my voice" (stated jokingly on his part), its kind of frustrating, he must know that I cannot reply and just wince and laugh it off every time I hear these things, these calls are not on a daily basis however its bad enough when I get just 3 of them a week for me. Quite bizarre ... during all of these "conversations" he hasnt once suggested a date, etc. Does he expect me to make the next move??

 

Is this man the serial cheater, master manipulator type that most of you have had the unfortune to meet? Do you think that he has been up to this before (god or even if I am not the only OW at present?). Or am I grubbeling about in the dust at the moment ?

[newby]

Is this man the serial cheater, master manipulator type that most of you have had the unfortune to meet?

what difference does it make?

[MadameB]

Newby, to tell you the truth. I am uncertain what difference it actually does make. If we do initate a relationship of sorts, I am perfectly aware that I would /will then be most probably Lady Nr. 17, after mother, wife, sister, first love, etc, etc, in the top ten chart of the women in his life.

 

Maybe its my ego wanting to know that this affair, whatever its duration, is special for both of us and to receive word back from women who have experienced similar situations.

 

I am under no illusions that he will leave his wife, nor do I want this. One starts loving them for the individual that they are and then months and years go on and in order to keep their "loveliness" alive in one´s eyes, one will then start wanting to change them and who they are, bad and good habits alike, so that one can "love" them as one thinks they should be in ones own subjective scheme of things - which is neither good nor bad, its just how things more often than not develop in long term relationships (not referring to his M, though can speak for my own relationship and many of those within my circles) - I have no intention of this relationship developing that far.

[newby]

Maybe its my ego wanting to know that this affair, whatever its duration, is special for both of us and to receive word back from women who have experienced similar situations.

yes, that is how i felt too, i had no desire for him to leave his wife because i could not see having a long term relationship with him unless it carried on the same as it was, also wayyy too much pressure if somebody leaves a whole marriage for you. but i did want to know that i wasnt just a piece of a$$, and i did have alot of feelings for him.

turned out whether it was special to him or not i wouldnt ever know the truth of. he said recently that it wasnt. i think thats probably true. on the other hand they get scared of giving too much in case you start making demands (maybe), im not trying to make myself feel better with this one i just think that with such a relationship based on deception and full of fears and confusion it is hard to ever get at the truth of things.

there are alot of women in here who have relationships that sound very loving, now these mm are either using diffeent tactics or they really do have these feelings. how can anyone ever really know? because the relationships are stagnant the usual actions that let you know there are feelings do not come into play. with alot of men they wont even allow their feelings to go to an impractical place, theres no point. they do need the ego boost of it though. who knows what they feel??

you probably wont ever really know.

if you want to carry on the relationship you have to accept that truth.

I have no intention of this relationship developing that far.

yes, but where do you stop?

[Mr Spock]

Your relationship kind of sucks, it's not something I could live with for very long, unless I was on Paxil or something similar that stripped me of any and all libido.

 

My guess is that you will continue to be tempted and may even cheat again until the parts of you that respond to that wither up and fall off, and you can join the rest of the people who have had funerals for their sex lives.

[MadameB]

Hey Mr Spock thanks for the chuckle. Re your comments regarding my future monogamy pattern, I am not at all sure. This MM just has this little sprinkling of something that makes all the little butterflies in my stomach flutter like mad when I see him or hear his voice and it is this particular relationship (of sorts),its development and his behaviour in particular that I would really appreciate, no better require, advice on.

 

Newby,thank you so much for your mail. May I ask if you are still in this relationship? Is it similar to mine, I mean do you work with him and are the "roles" similar (well the roles that are developing in my "relationship´s" teething stages) that you both take on in order to maintain the affair ?

[Owl]

Question...

 

If this relationship is bound to go nowhere, you know it's not something 'meant to last', and that you're just in it for the 'butterlies' it generates....

 

...why on earth would you truly proceed with it, knowing that the end result is that you're basically going to be one more stepping stone in destroying his marriage and family?

 

It may not be forever for you, it may mean very little to both of you...but his wife won't feel that way. Why would you even give this a moment's serious thought? He's obviously got no moral's to speak of, if he's done what you've described so far.

 

If it's just for the butterflies...find someone who's single for that effect.

 

If it's for more than just the butterflies....find someone single for THAT as well.

 

Pursuing this will just leave you heartbroken in a few months when things have gone past the physical to the emotional, and you find that he's still the same cheating weasel that you know now. Not even talking about the impacts beyond you.

[newby]

madame b

i am not really sure what you mean by this, but it is similar to yours in that i was used as a piece of a$$ and an ego boost and a bit of drama, yes. and in that he would never develop any real feelings for me yes. and that i was really hurting myself with it, no matter how i tried to convince myself i could handle it, yes. it is similar to yours.

[MadameB]

To be honest Owl, exactly because of the first reason you stated - that it isnt meant to last. In essence I am hoping that all my "sexual aspirations" re this current attraction, relationship of sorts, achieve fulfillment. Be it once, twice or on fifteen occassions, the "relationship", if it were to evolve sexually, will then, ultimately, reach its peak, the initial attraction lost forever. It will then take the course of fizzling, drying and withering out. I do not believe that we are all born monogomous (excuse the spelling, Ive had a long day), I think its unnatural, is against our biological natures and that the very worst thing you can do to a relationship is "instutionalise" it (ie marry). This is my own personal opinion on the the"meant to last" topic. Scandinavian Chairs, cathedrals and fantastically expensive, italian shoes are meant to last, people and feelings evolve and one cannot vacuum pack or freeze them, or time, for that matter, which none of us in life have a lot of.

 

I am uncertain if "I" will then be a stepping stone to the destruction of his marriage, rather, that his actions are a consequence of his nature, that the forces of nature are to be reckoned with and that you cannot "block" your nature or needs without this having much dire consequences when its too late in life ( wonder why martyrdom is even considered a "noble" trait). However, as is the comfort of institutionalised love (and long year relationships in my case), most (and I count myself in there) will then choose the comfort of habit, known warmth and security rather than take a step into the unknown and evolve their "external" lives on a par with their "internal" lives. However this is probably fortunate when you decide to place children on this earth.

 

I have been attracted to this man for some time, it has transpired that he was feeling akin. He´s not single, he´s not single. Maybe this was an unconcious deciding factor in my attraction that crunched it for him, maybe my non-singleness was the crunch factor for him. I have no idea. And he is playing this, I have no idea how to play, Im that honest though require advice from those that do...

[newby]

ohhhhh i see! you are wanting advice on how to conduct an affair?

then i cant help you i'm afraid.

[Owl]

OK...so you don't believe that love should be institutionalized by marriage. I can accept that.

 

I wonder if his wife feels the same way?

 

Basically, what I'm hearing is that this is all about whatever makes you feel good, totally regardless of outcome, or impacts to anyone else.

 

Regardless of whether or not you consider monogamy to be a 'natural state'...an argument that has as much against it as it has for it (just ONE comment...monogamy DOES occur often in nature...wolves, raptors, etc...all mate FOR LIFE....hmmm...perhaps the OWL moniker might also come into play here...'cause oddly enough, they too mate for life), his wife certainly isn't likely to share that view. I can hear you now saying that his wife's views are none of your concern. Perhaps...would you agree that convincing your friend to rob a store would mean that you have no responsibility for the crime against the owner of the store? Perhaps you might agree, if you felt that property ownership was also against human nature.

 

Basically, we're ALL responsible for the results of our actions, and how they harm those around us. I personally have absolutely no issue with a couple that feels that monogamy shouldn't be part of their marriage....until they start fooling around with MY marriage.

 

I'll shut up now, and let you make your own decisions. You appeared to come here asking for advice, but have also clearly already decided to proceed, so I can't imagine anything that I've said or done to have any impact at all.

 

Let me ask one last thought for you tho. Since you feel that monogamy isn't normal for us, and that it's how you should live, then I'd assume that you would have absolutely no issues with telling his wife that you're about to sleep with her husband?? Just give her a call, and say "hey...since he's gonna do it anyway, and if it wasn't me it would be someone else, just thought I'd let you know that I'm gonna boff him tonite."

 

Why not?

[whichwayisup]

YOU DO HAVE THE POWER to say NO...And walk away. Yeah it will hurt. But it's like right now you are knowingly heading for the hole in the ground...You know you're gonna fall into it and get your heart broken...Why do it then??

 

Find some single guy who will make your heart skip a beat. Not somebody who is married. You deserve better!

[Ladyjane14]

Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me how far people will go to rationalize and justify their wants. It doesn't matter how far a person sticks their head up their a$$....it still ain't gonna smell like roses up there.

 

"I want what I want, when I want it". All the "monogamy-in-nature" justification is just a feint. If you really, truly believed that....why are you still married? I can't believe it's because you particularly enjoy being a hypocrite in regards to your own professed belief system.

 

You expressed an earlier desire to NEVER cheat your husband again, and yet here you are contemplating doing just that....and f*cking up some other woman's marriage to boot. Sometimes, you just gotta ask yourself...WHY?

 

Lie to other people if that's what you want to do, but never lie to yourself. It's not like you can hide the truth from YOU. The only thing you'll accomplish in the effort is to hopelessly confuse yourself.

 

If you're going to go out and p*ss on someone else's home-deal, as well as your own...at least have the courage to say you're doing it because you want gratification for yourself....and you don't give a rat's-a$$ about who gets hurt. Because EVERYBODY involved in this thing will eventually get hurt if you proceed, including you.

 

Do you honestly think that someone in a sex-starved, dry-as-dust marriage isn't going to lose her head completely at the first exciting bit of attention she's received in years? What do you think the odds are that you won't be posting here in a couple of months about how "in love" you are, and how miserable you are because he won't leave his wife? Look around you.

 

The absolute, unvarnished truth will bring clarity to your decision process. When you take off the rose-colored glasses, and really look at your own life, you'll be able to make choices that affect it in a positive way, and that you can take pride in. You can fill in the gaps, without bogging yourself down in rationalizations.

 

Geez, if you pour chocolate sauce on a pile of sh*t....it's still not dessert. Make your life whatever flavor you like, but damn....at least make it ice cream before you start adding toppings.