Do you think cheaters would cheat if they knew the pain they would inflict?

[Spectre]

How could anyone know how catastrophic the damage of infidelity until they've lived it?

 

By not being an idiot, that is how. Common sense people! Even if you don't know the full scale of the utter pain it will bring, if you don't know it will at least cause serious pain? Yeah, serious problems arise. People who lack that much clarity and common sense do not belong getting involved with other people.

[HereNorThere]

How could anyone know how catastrophic the damage of infidelity until they've lived it?

 

That's an easy question to answer -

Empathy

em·pa·thy

ˈempəTHē

noun

 

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

[Spectre]

I mean, I've never experienced falling off a tall building. I can't imagine all the pain one would feel if you survived, but I sure as hell can imagine at least SOME of the pain. Would you not look at me funny if I said "gee, I'm just not sure if it would hurt at ALL, I would need to be flung off a building as well just to be sure!"?

[autumnnight]

I mean, I've never experienced falling off a tall building. I can't imagine all the pain one would feel if you survived, but I sure as hell can imagine at least SOME of the pain. Would you not look at me funny if I said "gee, I'm just not sure if it would hurt at ALL, I would need to be flung off a building as well just to be sure!"?

 

Because my knee is not busy jerking, I am assuming what seachan means is that no one who hasn't been through it can really fathom the depths of the pain. A potential WS may imagine how much their actions would hurt, but they can never fully grasp just how horrible the pain of being betrayed is unless they have been there.

[VeryBrokenMan]

By not being an idiot, that is how. Common sense people! Even if you don't know the full scale of the utter pain it will bring, if you don't know it will at least cause serious pain? Yeah, serious problems arise. People who lack that much clarity and common sense do not belong getting involved with other people.

 

Pain yes, devastation no.

 

I have loads of common sense and I don't think I completely understood the devastation an affair would cause. I'm sure on some level I thought an affair would be painful but had no clue really about how bad it is.

[nightmare01]

Does a BH opinion count with regard to this question? Not sure about that.

 

From my perspective my WW knew her LTA would devastate me. She knew that it would make a wreckage of our M. She knew it could lead to D. She knew that it would have a bad impact on our children.

 

But she thought she would not get caught.

 

IMO people have affairs because they want to. That want drives them to find fault with their spouse and their M as a way to rationalize fulfilling their want. That want makes everything else not matter.

[Bittersweetie]

An answer from a former cheater...

 

NO.

 

If I could go back and change my choices, I would. But I can't. And I still have a lot of hate for the person who made those horrible hurtful choices, that person who thought it was okay to be so incredibly selfish and do something so terrible.

 

I also agree with VBM, in the back of my head I knew my H would be hurt if he found out, but I hadn't anticipated the devastation. On his part, my part, our part. There is no way I could inflict that on anyone ever again, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[violet1]

If your H didn't care he'd of dumped you and moved on. Especially since men can be possessive, he doesn't have to love you to not be okay with the idea of you riding other dudes. So if you seriously thought he wouldn't care one bit, I'd feel that is a level of ignorance that you need to address. Unless you addressed that specific thing in counseling.

Are you seriously that naive? I wonder if you've ever been married or even in a long term relationship. When two people allow their marriage to deteriorate, they usually don't care what the other person does. People will stay in bad marriages out of convenience, finances, kids, fear, etc. People don't always stay out of love.

[ladydesigner]

Are you seriously that naive? I wonder if you've ever been married or even in a long term relationship. When two people allow their marriage to deteriorate, they usually don't care what the other person does. People will stay in bad marriages out of convenience, finances, kids, fear, etc. People don't always stay out of love.

 

I am only staying currently because of finances and the kids but I am getting my sh*t sorted out so to speak. I agree with the above!

[violet1]

Are you seriously that naive? I wonder if you've ever been married or even in a long term relationship. When two people allow their marriage to deteriorate, they usually don't care what the other person does. People will stay in bad marriages out of convenience, finances, kids, fear, etc. People don't always stay out of love.

One more thing I wanted to add. When I started my A, I had no intentions of staying in my marriage. I wanted an escape and a little attention. Then I thought I was falling in love with my exAP. He was my soul mate, etc. My head was definitely in my a$$. D Day changed everything for me. I realized there was still love between. Unfortunately, I was hooked on my exAP, it took me awhile to wake up. I'm thankful my H and I chose to reconcile. I made very stupid and selfish choices.

[nightmare01]

One more thing I wanted to add. When I started my A, I had no intentions of staying in my marriage. I wanted an escape and a little attention. Then I thought I was falling in love with my exAP. He was my soul mate, etc. My head was definitely in my a$$. D Day changed everything for me. I realized there was still love between. Unfortunately, I was hooked on my exAP, it took me awhile to wake up. I'm thankful my H and I chose to reconcile. I made very stupid and selfish choices.

 

My WW gave me pretty much the same story.

 

We are still together - this coming July it will be 14 years since Dday. It CAN be done - but it sure as hell isn't easy.

[atreides]

basically, HereNorThere got it - her post perfectly described why i think your definition of addiction is off.

 

it doesn't really matter if they're self - brought or not. in medicine, addiction IS considered a disease. i get what you're trying to say but i think the word "addiction" is a little too strong & wrong to use in this debate.

 

 

I work in medicine and gave you a medical source that explained why addictions are not diseases, but we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 

To be shorter in my post, i did not intend the word "healthy" as in disorder, but to use an alternative other than the word "normal" as so many like to politicize "what is normal."

 

 

i also know a lot of people who stayed married but were genuinely in love & had deep feelings for their APs.

 

A lot of that has gone on here in LS but as you don't believe when people say there is nothing wrong with the marriage, especially waywards that say this. The context is that they are not deflecting as to hide behind it. Moreover, I argue that they are lying to themselves when they say they have "deep feelings" in not knowing what lust, chasing the thrill or yes, that addictive nature that trapped themselves into.

 

 

just the other day i was reading Nattie's (i think?) story and it was exactly like that. in the beginning - all fun and games, claimed she never wanted to leave & how she doesn't love her AP. 3 threads later - they both left their spouses and are together.

 

I see that too, but don't mistake that for love.. if it is genuine, I would be hard pressed, but there are exceptions but not the "average." Most AP relationships fail, they were never able to shake the addiction and try to make it more than that in the process; something less cheap and more genuine then just chasing the thrill. They fail in majority because the start of the relationship is a lie and not based on "deep feelings."

 

 

 

it's fair to leave & divorce when you don't love anymore. but it's also not realistic for a lot of people. not everyone can afford to be divorced, not everyone can afford a new place to live, sometimes people don't want to spend any less time with their children than they already do.

 

divorcing is not easy, that's why folks usually wait for an outside motivator (aka AP). these are NOT excuses, by the way. but it explains why people wait for exit affairs to "make a move".

 

when i said that infidelity IS "connected" with the state of R or M - i can give you an example where it will be easier to explain.

 

my friend was in a R with his W for about a decade. she started to work many hours, neglecting him. he of course, voiced his concerns and told her how unhappy he is - she did nothing. soon, the M became sexless, his every attempt at working things out was shot down and eventually... he gave up. there was no sex, no intimacy - the relationship was strained. of course, he eventually had an A. was it right? nope. was it moral, decent, brave? none of that. was it related to the state of his M & his relationship with his W? absolutely. if the relationship with his W wasn't strained - he wouldn't cheat, as simple as that.

 

i don't blame his W, do not get me wrong. cheating is HIS fault, absolutely. he had a choice and well... but the problems in his M eventually did lead to his A.

he was unhappy and he wasn't getting what he needed from his M, so he looked elsewhere. again, not excusing that behavior - just showing you that there IS some kind of relation between the state of R & M and partner having an A. not always, but in most cases definitely.

 

the reason why i don't believe that happy people cheat in their happy marriages - i was the BS and i'm having a hard time accepting that someone can inflict that kind of pain on their partner they claim to love and risk everything they claim makes them happy.

 

to me, cheating is a personal problem. but it's also almost always related to the fact that the cheater either doesn't love their spouse or is unhappy in the M - just from my experience.

 

Ok, first, the reason why i use "addiction" is that is does not define a person, it is a temporary period vs character flaw which is more rooted in the person and ongoing and lends itself to "once a cheater" mantra. I believe people can recover, meaning they can becomes stronger and a better person post the "instance/addiction" vs recovering from a flaw. To say it is a flaw is also a circular road in it begs the questions, "what will the next threshold be for them to cheat" "will it be a shorter road or longer" "what problems will cause them to cheat" "if i behave this way, will it prevent them from cheating" and so on.

 

I won't argue against the "flaw" at length so long as the point is that there is no connection between marital issues and infidelity. Clearly if you really ask yourself those question above, you will get what i mean that you will go down a rabbit hole likely never find the answers when you try and connect marital problems to infidelity. Basically as I will explain below, is that why i wont argue so much against a "flaw" is that it logically works with "when opportunity presents itself."

 

Your example leaves important parts out, it is easy to say, well the marriage was messed up and so he cheated, but so many don't and divorce, with kids and finances and the whole lot of examples you gave as to why people don't divorce when in fact the % is quite high especially in the U.S. where for a huge % are able to. So that tells us, kids, finances and etc cannot be the answer to infidelity vs divorce. I have a lawyer in the family and over the years, you would be floored at how many divorce on less with kids, finances and the works.

I have lived and witnessed personally with family and friends where there was nothing wrong with the marriage beyond any problems my own marriage has had or anyone else.

Yet there was infidelity because the opportunity presented itself and the pursuit of the thrill won out or the "character flaw won out."

To cheat is simply not a "rational" act, and is false to deduce by saying x,y happened so there fore it is z. No, your friend could have done any number of things besides cheating. He did not cheat from marital problems as we cannot safely say that had the marriage been better, that had the same opportunity presented itself as in the person he met would not have cheated. Moreover, waywards love to go down this road as it assigns blame on the betrayed spouse, as "they did this and so i cheated."

 

Cheating starts from opportunity, because we cannot control whom we are attracted to, we just can't. We can however control what we do about it and the choices we make with the boundaries we set. We don't need anything else other than "opportunity presented itself" and the wayward failed to keep boundaries.

 

I wanted to add though, we must agree for all of this discussion that the marriages were are talking about are not arranged as my best friends or simply married for "contractual safety" for money, papers and etc.

Edited March 6, 2015 by atreides

[bubbaganoosh]

you know... to me (& i've been cheated on twice) that remorse just wasn't enough. on top of everything, i started falling out of love because i just couldn't continue to love someone who could do that to me.

 

the 1st time, the remorse was real. & he is sorry and i don't think he'll ever get over it BUT... it just wasn't enough to me. the 2nd time, the remorse wasn't really about hurting me... it was rather about him betraying his own values & principles. he was sorry for doing it to himself, not to me.

 

the pain was unbearable & there is not enough remorse in this lifetime to make it easier.

 

i can forgive and i already did. that's not an issue. i can forgive and i can understand... but there is no way i am staying after an infidelity. i will respectfully bow out & go on about my own life without that person.

 

if it was a ONS... i could understand. but long term affairs? it was happening for days, months, years...? i admire absolutely everyone who can move past that & rebuild the relationship.

 

I feel the same way. I can forgive infidelity in time but i can never forget and that's the issue. There's always going to be something to remind you of a real bad day and I don't and refuse to live like that

[beatcuff]

Beatcuff post #68,

You said [lines of communication were broken years ago]

So you are saying that the BS is at fault for the WS's inability to articulate their needs?

 

are you thinking not? seriously? they did (years ago and the response more likely long forgotten). in fact there are 'third rails' even before you met: 'your sister/best friend is better looking than you'. as the years accumulate so do the 'don't go there'. and no doubt one thinks its bad timing while the other thinks never again.

 

more support to my original statement: go to the separation area and note the times: "i thought it was going well but S is leaving".

 

BTW i am a failure at this as well.

[purplesorrow]

are you thinking not? seriously? they did (years ago and the response more likely long forgotten). in fact there are 'third rails' even before you met: 'your sister/best friend is better looking than you'. as the years accumulate so do the 'don't go there'. and no doubt one thinks its bad timing while the other thinks never again.

 

more support to my original statement: go to the separation area and note the times: "i thought it was going well but S is leaving".

 

BTW i am a failure at this as well.

 

If I had this much control over my wh's abilities, I certainly wouldn't have used said control to have him cheat. Bonkers!

[Arieswoman]

beatcuff,

post #115,

 

you said

 

are you thinking not? seriously? they did (years ago and the response more likely long forgotten)

 

I can't speak for any other BS but I can tell you that I worked my backside off trying to make my exH happy.

He spent days sulking but wouldn't tell me what was wrong.

 

I know I'm smart but I'm not a mindreader

[BlackHat]

Hello,

 

I just came upon this thread, read most of the posts, and I think (forgive me if I miss it) that there is a key aspect missing: Cheaters think they have extremely valid reasons.

 

Let's cut to the chase with some examples:

 

- Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, gets that drunk to have sex with someone without wanting to have sex with someone in the first place. Getting drunk is part of the plan, but this is such an exquisite lie that it seems we are not able to talk about it in the open. I am not saying that people don't get drunk and have sex. What I am saying is that the intention is there before the take the first shot.

 

- "I was hurt". I personally used that one in the past before I grew up a set of testicles and decided take responsibility for my actions. Spouse forgets our anniversary = Now you have the right to cheat. Replace "hurt" with "horny" and you have the truth.

 

- "I was confused". This one is funny, too. How can someone be "confused"? Did you got confuse and stick you-know-what in you-know-where? I mean, most of the time when I get confused I just ask for directions without ever dropping my pants, but hey maybe that's just me.

 

At the end of the day cheaters don't give a damn. We don't. Sure we love our spouses but a tad less than we love ourselves. It's perhaps the ultimate act of narcissism: We should not have an spouse, but we want the freedom to do what we want and still keep the family life. The most comfortable way is cheating.

 

And one day I will write at lenght about these so-called "reformed cheaters", but I will do so in my blog. I don't want to pollute other people's threads.

[jnel921]

I don't think anyone who decides to cheat ever thinks of the consequences. They are too caught up in the attention and fog to realize that they have another person who would be extremely hurt if they knew that this was happening.

 

This is why D-Day is such a big deal. Once all is out in the open cheaters then realize that their selfish behavior have big consequences. It's a shame.

[fellini]

Except that not all cheaters are narcissists. And not all cheaters think they have valid reasons. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary - there are cheaters who know they are wrong to cheat and whose reasons for doing so are indefensible. Yet they do it.

 

That said, yes there are cheaters, like youself, who are entirely narcissistic, and believe cheating is a game they know how to play, and play it well.

 

But only a narcissist thinks that every one who does something does it for the same reasons.

 

 

It would be so much easier if in fact all cheaters were narcissistic, (and not the other way round: that practically all narcissists are cheaters) because this would make the decision to reconcile or not much easier.

 

The problem is some non narcissist cheaters actually grow as human beings after dday / when they have had enough of cheating.

 

 

Hello,

 

I just came upon this thread, read most of the posts, and I think (forgive me if I miss it) that there is a key aspect missing: Cheaters think they have extremely valid reasons.

 

Let's cut to the chase with some examples:

 

- Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, gets that drunk to have sex with someone without wanting to have sex with someone in the first place. Getting drunk is part of the plan, but this is such an exquisite lie that it seems we are not able to talk about it in the open. I am not saying that people don't get drunk and have sex. What I am saying is that the intention is there before the take the first shot.

 

- "I was hurt". I personally used that one in the past before I grew up a set of testicles and decided take responsibility for my actions. Spouse forgets our anniversary = Now you have the right to cheat. Replace "hurt" with "horny" and you have the truth.

 

- "I was confused". This one is funny, too. How can someone be "confused"? Did you got confuse and stick you-know-what in you-know-where? I mean, most of the time when I get confused I just ask for directions without ever dropping my pants, but hey maybe that's just me.

 

At the end of the day cheaters don't give a damn. We don't. Sure we love our spouses but a tad less than we love ourselves. It's perhaps the ultimate act of narcissism: We should not have an spouse, but we want the freedom to do what we want and still keep the family life. The most comfortable way is cheating.

 

And one day I will write at lenght about these so-called "reformed cheaters", but I will do so in my blog. I don't want to pollute other people's threads.

[fellini]

There is no such thing as an ultimate act of narcissism. .. everything is an act and nothing more.

 

If you really, really understood the world of a narcissist you would know that a spouse fulfils a really important function as primary source of narcissistic supply. In addition you would know that a narcissist uses his spouse as a witness to the history of his "accomplishments", just like your own spouse who knew when she married her of your conquests.

 

The problem with secondary sources of narcissistic supply is they are too transitory and having a primary source means putting up with codependency on a spouse oR long term relationship.

 

Of course narcissists shouldn't marry, but not because of freedom, because the spouse doesn't stand a chance.

 

It's perhaps the ultimate act of narcissism: We should not have an spouse, but we want the freedom to do what we want and still keep the family life. The most comfortable way is cheating.

[Echo74]

Absolutely

 

My husband said he would never cheat on me because his first wife did and he knows how it feels. We have been separated since November (not what I wanted) and probably divorce in the next few months. I just found out last week that he was cheating on me since last summer. I have never felt such pain, ever.

[compulsivedancer]

Just wondering if people would actually choose to stray if they really understood what they were going to do to their spouse?

 

I've said I would never cheat on my wife and I truly believed that before her affair (and I was tested) but now I REALLY know I would never cheat because I understand the pain involved.

 

Knowing in your head that something will cause pain and seeing it first hand is something completely different. Yeah, when I put thought into it, I knew my A would hurt H. But I kind of thought it would be like the movies. He'd be hurt for a while, we'd figure things out, we'd move on or we wouldn't. Not for a second did I ever imagine the depths of the pain that he actually went through.

 

Now that wouldn't stop all affairs, probably not even the majority. But I imagine it could stop SOME affairs.

 

I recently had a conversation with someone who wanted to cheat on his wife. I told him how much it would hurt her, and how much he had to lose. And he agreed with me ("oh yeah, I know it's a terrible idea"), but it didn't change his mind or make him stop pursuing the woman, because he only knew it in his head, not his gut. He was so focused on his interest in spreading his seed that everything else was secondary.

[NJ123]

This is my ultimate fear if I ever get married one day. I'd be destroyed if my wife cheated on me, especially if things appeared to be perfectly normal at home. Some people just cheat for the sake of cheating even if things are going great. Just some sick ****ing people out there.

[Echo74]

the problem with this question is the assumption of black v white. either they cheat or not.

 

it ignores the decision for them to 'separate' (even for a weekend) and have a boyfriend. i do not see much difference in the pain.

 

BECAUSE the overriding theme is one partner checked out and the other was either unaware or oblivious too it.

 

and while we bash one side or the other the real truth is lines of communication were damaged years ago. and that should be lesson learned.

 

Yep, and unfortunately for me, my H was never the communicative type. He actually called it a "confrontation", I told him it was communication. So this is where we end up. As another poster stated, I'm not a mind reader.

 

 

The best answer I can come up with , without having been a ws myself is something my husband told me. he is a soldier who has been in combat, and we talked once about how he was able to do that. He told me that you have to be able to compartmentalize it and put it all in a box. The problem in that box has no lid, and what's in it can easily come out and bleed into the rest of your soul, especially the longer you keep having to put things into that box. ( me paraphrasing his words). Good people doing bad things I guess.

 

In my opinion, many cheaters are similar. They have their own box, and the longer they put things into it, the harder it is to keep what's in it separate from the rest of your life.

 

Another example of good people doing a bad thing, i guess.

 

Boy it this so true! My H was in the Marine Corp and always talked about "compartmentalizing". And of course that's what he did with our marriage. Put me and our situation in a box and did what the heck he felt like doing.

[beach]

My answer to the original question is yes - they would still cheat knowing they would cause that pain - most would - not all, but most.