Do you think cheaters would cheat if they knew the pain they would inflict?

[VeryBrokenMan]

you're not kidding. are you? Because another way to say that is that 40 years cancels out X amount of infidelity.

 

So how much would X be? Four months? Two years? Do we have a ratio for when a BS ought to "just get over it"?

 

It a question of seeing the ENTIRE relationship. Do any of us want to be judged by the worst mistake we ever made? To me she has been faithful and devoted and a whole lot of other GOOD things for 30 years. So in my case I'm willing to forgive 77 days of horrible choices if she shows remorse and empathy and comes clean about everything. And she is doing exactly that.

 

I've said this elsewhere: she can NEVER repay this debt. Never. But she can change herself for the better. Fix her selfishness and entitlement and treat me with respect and with that I can move forward and forgive her at some point. Her fixing the entitlement and selfishness tells me she will never cheat again.

[spanz1]

SINCE the cheaters would never get caught....there would be no pain for you, so it does not even enter into their minds!

[merrmeade]

Actually I agree with all the above. Of course! Redemption is always possible for anyone for anything and it's not about anyone else but that person and whoever else s/he feels accountable. And, of course, it's not black or white. I agree that you don't throw someone away for one indiscretion and we here on LS don't get to decide what that boundary should be for another.

 

Just deleted a whole paragraph about BS acceptance, realizing the thread is not about that, yet the topic is close. It's hard to talk about what the WS might have done without going into future remorse (or not) and how that affects the BS.

 

To address the question, I don't think my H would have done what he did if he knew what was to come. It's not the same as deep remorse but a version.

Edited March 10, 2015 by merrmeade

[autumnnight]

I THINK we mostly all agree it depends on the WS's ability to experience and then convince the BS of his/her genuine remorse

 

And I would add to this, after a period of time, it would depend on the BS' ability or willingness to BE convinced. Some cannot. Some will not.

[Zenstudent]

How about this: 20 years of faithful, a couple of months of extremely horrific choices, repentance, remorse, and 20 more years of faithful.

 

I don't want to live in a world full of people who, in the above scenario, would ONLY care about the 2 months.

How about your scenario followed by a couple of months of betrayal and backstabbing? Still more good years than bad years. For me, no thanks.

 

The problem with this is that as a BS, you really can't tell if you're dealing with one scenario or the other - since honesty is a scarce resource. This clearly doesn't apply to OP, which is good for him (and the topic of the thread). He knows for certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that she won't betray him again. That's wonderfull, I envy him his crystal ball, I really do.

 

There has been some thoughtfull posts previous in the thread about the WS knowing about the pain and damage their actions will cause - but not expecting to get caught and once caught, rationalization, rewriting and justification allows them to follow through anyhow, because the reward is higher than the anticipated cost.

 

Personally, I don't see why this scenario wouldn't repeat itself in the future, once she knows how to hide it better. And I certainly won't take her word for it, BTDT.

[autumnnight]

How about your scenario followed by a couple of months of betrayal and backstabbing? Still more good years than bad years. For me, no thanks.

 

The problem with this is that as a BS, you really can't tell if you're dealing with one scenario or the other - since honesty is a scarce resource. This clearly doesn't apply to OP, which is good for him (and the topic of the thread). He knows for certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that she won't betray him again. That's wonderfull, I envy him his crystal ball, I really do.

 

There has been some thoughtfull posts previous in the thread about the WS knowing about the pain and damage their actions will cause - but not expecting to get caught and once caught, rationalization, rewriting and justification allows them to follow through anyhow, because the reward is higher than the anticipated cost.

 

Personally, I don't see why this scenario wouldn't repeat itself in the future, once she knows how to hide it better. And I certainly won't take her word for it, BTDT.

 

I can absolutely understand this sentiment. Everyone must do what is best for them in such a painful situation. The problem begins when strangers expect everyone to agree with THEIR view, assume every situation is just like their, and get downright nasty when something threatens the neatly crafted paradigm to which they will cling like grim death.

[HereNorThere]

How about this: 20 years of faithful, a couple of months of extremely horrific choices, repentance, remorse, and 20 more years of faithful.

 

I don't want to live in a world full of people who, in the above scenario, would ONLY care about the 2 months.

 

How about this: 20 years as a babysitter not molesting children, 2 months of molesting children, followed by 20 more years of not molesting children.

 

You gonna let this person be your babysitter?

[merrmeade]

It a question of seeing the ENTIRE relationship. Do any of us want to be judged by the worst mistake we ever made? To me she has been faithful and devoted and a whole lot of other GOOD things for 30 years. So in my case I'm willing to forgive 77 days of horrible choices if she shows remorse and empathy and comes clean about everything. And she is doing exactly that.

 

I've said this elsewhere: she can NEVER repay this debt. Never. But she can change herself for the better. Fix her selfishness and entitlement and treat me with respect and with that I can move forward and forgive her at some point. Her fixing the entitlement and selfishness tells me she will never cheat again.

so you posted the question, 0P, and you believe your WS is sincere, so did you ask her this question? And what did she say? Do you believe her? If not, why not? If you do, then why are you asking here? Btw I'm not challenging. Just trying to understand why you're asking this. Edited March 10, 2015 by merrmeade
Hard to post on a phone!

[fellini]

Well you seem determined to prove my point. Why is it that when a single argument gets made about infidelity, that actually involves talking about infidelity, that some BS'S have to resort to extreme and inappropriate analogies?

 

So here it is again, and i dont need to summon hatchet murder or crackhead addicts to make my point:

 

The woman I love proved to me that she shared that love for me for 15 years, and in fact made my world better for it during those 15 years, even when I wasn't always doing my share. During 18 months of her life she fell and failed. Miserably. She failed me, our daughter and herself. For the last 2 years she has proven herself to be worthy of the 2nd chance I have given us.

 

No weighing, no calculations: don't try to tell me that the only issue are those 18 months of her life where I became invisible and she nearly lost everything we had. She is all those people: the loving centred woman, the unfaithful, and the remorseful. There is nothing about her I need to weigh, I only need to decide what I want for me.

 

Now you can go back to thinking my wife as a pedophile or a crackhead or an axe murderer to make your point, but i think it rather telling when in an argument one has to find extreme analogies because they don't have the words to speak about the thing itself.

 

 

 

 

 

How about this: 20 years as a babysitter not molesting children, 2 months of molesting children, followed by 20 more years of not molesting children.

 

You gonna let this person be your babysitter?

[atreides]

I'd say they haven't figured out how infidelity works yet.

 

When the majority of cases of infidelity come from long sustained relatively happy marriages, I think its only far to judge the cheater for the cheating.

 

But surely you would agree that one must also judge the X years when the spouse wasn't cheating, wasn't thinking of cheating, wasn't crossing boundaries, was in fact nurturing their marriage. To discount this and focus only on the cheating is to be as guilty as the WS of compartmentalization, IMHB.

 

I like this, i wont argue the whole "flaw" thing as I was "sort of" earlier.

Truly i don't think "once a cheater" << however i would if there was no attempt to heal or "soul search"

Perhaps my use of addiction does not jive well with some, but I look at it as that we cannot control our attractions but we can our choices and what we do with how and what we feel. To me addictions are self-brought as is infidelity and we can recover them and be better for it on the other side.

Infidelity to me should not define a person.

[HereNorThere]

Well you seem determined to prove my point. Why is it that when a single argument gets made about infidelity, that actually involves talking about infidelity, that some BS'S have to resort to extreme and inappropriate analogies?

 

So here it is again, and i dont need to summon hatchet murder or crackhead addicts to make my point:

 

The woman I love proved to me that she shared that love for me for 15 years, and in fact made my world better for it during those 15 years, even when I wasn't always doing my share. During 18 months of her life she fell and failed. Miserably. She failed me, our daughter and herself. For the last 2 years she has proven herself to be worthy of the 2nd chance I have given us.

 

No weighing, no calculations: don't try to tell me that the only issue are those 18 months of her life where I became invisible and she nearly lost everything we had. She is all those people: the loving centred woman, the unfaithful, and the remorseful. There is nothing about her I need to weigh, I only need to decide what I want for me.

 

Now you can go back to thinking my wife as a pedophile or a crackhead or an axe murderer to make your point, but i think it rather telling when in an argument one has to find extreme analogies because they don't have the words to speak about the thing itself.

 

 

^^^ This isn't fair to crackheads. Sorry, but I don't see how smoking cocaine base in and of itself violates the rights of others.

[Bittersweetie]

How about this: 20 years as a babysitter not molesting children, 2 months of molesting children, followed by 20 more years of not molesting children.

 

You gonna let this person be your babysitter?

 

Here,

 

Are you above, comparing me to a baby molester?

 

Are you familiar with my story?

 

After d-day, my H could've said, screw you. We could've divorced. I could've said to myself, what's the use of making changes in myself, because I will always be seen as the selfish, self centered cheater. I could've continued to act selfishly without thinking of others or the consequences. I could've said, f it.

 

But that is not what happened. I decided to make changes to myself. I am not the same person I was six years ago during that A. I made an error in judgment of epic proportions. I hurt people who cared about me. I cheated. And I have worked my butt off to examine myself and change to be not only a better wife but a better person. I never want to be a person who makes those kind of choices again.

 

So then, are you saying that my work and examination is for naught? That I might as well give up now because the choices I made during one year of my life negate the other 42?

 

I am very fortunate and thankful that my H saw things differently, because our life now is so much better and fuller than I could've ever imagined.

 

BSW

 

ETA: I'm not trying to be attacking here, I'm actually curious. I see many posters who, I'm sure because of their personal experiences, believe once someone cheaters they are never again acceptable in any way. And my point is, then why change? Why are there many WS here who have made changes? What hope is there for anyone if we cannot encourage people to make positive changes in their lives?

Edited March 10, 2015 by Bittersweetie

[HereNorThere]

Here,

 

Are you above, comparing me to a baby molester?

 

Are you familiar with my story?

 

After d-day, my H could've said, screw you. We could've divorced. I could've said to myself, what's the use of making changes in myself, because I will always be seen as the selfish, self centered cheater. I could've continued to act selfishly without thinking of others or the consequences. I could've said, f it.

 

But that is not what happened. I decided to make changes to myself. I am not the same person I was six years ago during that A. I made an error in judgment of epic proportions. I hurt people who cared about me. I cheated. And I have worked my butt off to examine myself and change to be not only a better wife but a better person. I never want to be a person who makes those kind of choices again.

 

So then, are you saying that my work and examination is for naught? That I might as well give up now because the choices I made during one year of my life negate the other 42?

 

I am very fortunate and thankful that my H saw things differently, because our life now is so much better and fuller than I could've ever imagined.

 

BSW

 

ETA: I'm not trying to be attacking here, I'm actually curious. I see many posters who, I'm sure because of their personal experiences, believe once someone cheaters they are never again acceptable in any way. And my point is, then why change? Why are there many WS here who have made changes? What hope is there for anyone if we cannot encourage people to make positive changes in their lives?

 

 

I was using the comparison as a hyperbolic example that ultimately shows that most people believe that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior, but suspend this belief when it benefits them.

 

It comes down to this - I wouldn't marry nor do I want to be married to an adulterer. This is a standard I have set for myself and it will not change. If others do not have this standard or boundary, that's fine. Some people wouldn't marry me because I'm an atheist. That's okay, I understand because I have my beliefs as well. We all have a right to chose our partner, period.

[Bittersweetie]

I was using the comparison as a hyperbolic example that ultimately shows that most people believe that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior, but suspend this belief when it benefits them.

 

It comes down to this - I wouldn't marry nor do I want to be married to an adulterer. This is a standard I have set for myself and it will not change. If others do not have this standard or boundary, that's fine. Some people wouldn't marry me because I'm an atheist. That's okay, I understand because I have my beliefs as well. We all have a right to chose our partner, period.

 

Of course. I understand your choice and boundaries.

 

I also understand that past behavior can be an indicator of future behavior. However, you did not answer my question:

 

Are the changes I worked on for myself, and for my relationship, for naught? The one year of A behavior negates the 36 years of non-A behavior before it, and the five years of non-A behavior after?

 

Thanks.

[HereNorThere]

Of course. I understand your choice and boundaries.

 

I also understand that past behavior can be an indicator of future behavior. However, you did not answer my question:

 

Are the changes I worked on for myself, and for my relationship, for naught? The one year of A behavior negates the 36 years of non-A behavior before it, and the five years of non-A behavior after?

 

Thanks.

 

No, I totally believe in redemption. I've done some horrible things, learned from them, etc. However, that's neither here nor there (lol) when it comes to my standards for who I would be married to and let have a legal right to end my life under certain circumstances.

 

It's simple, I don't care how much progress a person has made, they aren't going to be married to me if they've betrayed me in that way. For me, that's a deal breaker.

 

Do you not have ANY deal breakers at all? See, you do. Well, cheating on me is mine. It has nothing do with whether or not a person can learn and grow from their mistakes. This is my boundary, pure and simple.

[elaine567]

How about this: 20 years as a babysitter not molesting children, 2 months of molesting children, followed by 20 more years of not molesting children.

 

You gonna let this person be your babysitter?

 

Although I am sure you will get the how dare you use the child molester, extreme analogy, but you do have a good point.

At the 20 years 2 month stage, it impossible to say whether a person will show remorse and never go near a child again, or will molest a child at the next opportunity.

Does that child molester get another chance?

Most would say no, as it is not worth the risk. Most would say the same about any person who commits a heinous act or who is seen to be capable of betrayal or fraud.

 

However at a similar tipping point when a person cheats, then many BSs are prepared to give the WS the benefit of the doubt...

[bigman1]

Bittersweatie,

 

You said:

Are the changes I worked on for myself, and for my relationship, for naught? The one year of A behavior negates the 36 years of non-A behavior before it, and the five years of non-A behavior after?

 

You pose an interesting question. It really has several themes floating around. As I go through some of the themes, PLEASE ACCEPT THAT I AM NOT MAKING ANY OF THESE POSTULATES AS AN ACCUSATION. READ TO THE END.

 

First, was the 36 years of behavior before the cheating truly you? After all, if it was truly you, then why cheat for a year?

 

Secondly, if the 36 years was truly you and the one year of cheating was not truly you, then what did you have to change? Cheating was simply an aberration that was not predictable and also not likely to be repeated, thus there was nothing to change, so have you really changed anything at all?

 

Thirdly, if the one year was the "new" you, then what stock can we really put in the prior 36 years since such a horrible you came and lived for a year with such ease?

 

Fourth, if you did work and change over the last 5 years, how can one have confidence in the "new" you of 5 years since the "old" you of 36 years could not stop the 1 year of cheating?

 

Fifth, assuming you had to change yourself, did you change or have you simply "caged the beast"? Assuming that the 1 year cheater was who you had become, have you really changed or have you merely caged the beast?

 

I think that this really gets to the issue of RISK. No one, not even you, can guarantee what you won't do in the future. You may be the same person, you may be different, you may be so easily malleable that who you are today is no predictor of who you will be in the future because of your history, to wit: 36 years of non cheating behavior prior to cheating.

 

The real question is whether you are worth the RISK to your partner. That is a question that only your partner can answer. No one else's opinion matters. In your case, past behavior was not a predictor of future behavior. There are no guarantees.

 

If I, as a third party not in a relationship with you, had to give an answer to your question, I would say this: because of your statements and actions to atone for and understand your cheating, you are more likely to strongly reflect on whether to do it again although you also know that it is not the end of the world or of your relationship if you do.

Edited March 11, 2015 by bigman1
spelling

[Bittersweetie]

Here: Thank you for answering my question. I guess what I was asking is whether you believe in redemption, and you said you did. You can believe in that yet not allow that in a relationship, which is perfectly understandable and obviously your right to do so. Thanks again.

 

Bigman:

When I wrote that 36/1/5 years thing, I actually did start to think about some of your points. Before the A I was a bit selfish and self centered and did things (though nothing of an A magnitude) with that in mind. I got away with it; my H even admits that he enabled me. I also wasn't satisfied, I kept thinking I needed something else to be happy.

 

The one year of A took my selfishness to whole other level. I don't think I said I wasn't me; during that year, I was still me. But a f'ed up, mentally convoluted me. I rewrote my history to make everything I did okay. I was one huge mental mess.

 

The five years since has been me looking overall at my selfishness. Looking at my rewriting of history. It was me realized that happiness is within myself, not with what I have, and this change of outlook has enabled me to be much more at peace with my life and appreciate the things I have.

 

But you are right, it is still a risk for my H to be with me. He made his choice, one that I believe he is happy with, as am I. Our life now is pretty good and we have a wonderful son. There's an element of risk to everything is life though.

 

Finally, you said:

 

"because of your statements and actions to atone for and understand your cheating, you are more likely to strongly reflect on whether to do it again although you also know that it is not the end of the world or of your relationship if you do."

 

My H has made it perfectly clear it would be the end of the relationship if I did it again. And at that point my world as it is now would end. I see your point, but I can only speak for myself when I say it is a choice that I would not ever make again. To be honest I wouldn't even get to the "strongly reflect" stage!

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

[truncated]

I think the notion of whether or not a ws can be trusted to not ever cheat again depends on the person.

 

I don't get people who say things to the effect of " I know they will never cheat again, because I have changed and our marriage is better.". While that is all well and good, if the ws's behavior is defendant on the bs and the state of the marriage, then there is every chance they could cheat again, should they feel justified in doing so.

 

I would feel much better if it was a case of the ws having grown and learned to make different choices in the future. Some do that. Others don't, and I can completely understand a bs who can't ever trust their ws again. If that is the case, they are better off part than together.

[Zenstudent]

Great posts by Bittersweetie and Bigman, thanks.

 

Bittersweetie; I think Bigman covered it well. I would like to add a few thoughts I had when reflecting on your question.

 

I believe that people change, I've changed a lot in my 48 years of living, some things for the better and some things for worse. Let me give you an example. Years ago, I used to work a lot of hours. Some times at cost of seing my children in the evening. I don't do that anymore, I've realized that the wellbeing of my kids and my connection to them are the single most important things in life to me. A few weeks ago, my son said to me: "Dad, I know that you may not have the time for this, but I would really like you to spend some time with me to see a video game I want to buy."

 

Did that hurt? Yes it did, but I really don't blame him, because I know why he said that. Past behaviour. Even though we have spent a lot of time together the past 4-5 years.

 

Does that mean that all my changes in outlook, values and behaviour are lost? No, because everything really boils down to one single question: Who do I want to be?

 

So; as long as you work hard to be the person YOU would like yourself to be, does it really matter what anyone else, even your husband, thinks? I just hope that you do this hard work on yourself for your own sake and no one elses. If you do, it does matter. If it's for the sake of others, you will most likely fail.

 

Just don't judge people too hard when they judge you on your past behaviour, they don't know if the changes are for real or not - we all judge each other on past behaviour.