Question for Catholics (or about Catholics) and the Pope

[HokeyReligions]

I don't have time to do the research myself so I'm hoping that some of you may have an answer for me.

 

I have noticed on the news photos of the Pope that his body is looking pretty rank. Lots of deterioration and his feet are not staying together. I know that they did not embalm him, but I've heard several reasons why.

 

One that I thought was interesting is that there is some sort of 'decomposition timetable' that dictates if he can be considered for saint-hood? Something about if his body deteriorates at a certain rate he can then be called upon in prayer for a set number of years (I've heard anything from 1 year to 500 years) and if it is determined that he has answered or responded to another set number of prayers, he can be made a Saint.

 

Huh? What is the tradition for this?

 

What is the reason for not embalming in the Catholic church?

Is the reasoning different for the Pope?

What is the timing of deterioration in regards to being considered for sainthood?

[HoldOn]

Sometimes, when a Saint's body does not decompose, it is seen as a sign of sainthood or holiness, but it is not a requirement for sainthood. It's called incorruptibility.

 

This is not something you have to believe when you are Catholic, I think it is debated....

http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/01ws/ws010517.htm

 

But I am not sure whether they do embalm the body or not... I know they check up on it in the future to see if it has decomposed.

[quankanne]

hoke --

 

I'll check with a priest friend who is pretty good about answering whatever I throw at him, but from what little I know, I don't think the decomposition thingy applies any more, but I could be wrong. I DO know that the Church doesn't frown on embalming (my mom and granny were both embalmed before their Catholic burials), so I'm thinking that maybe he requested the procedure be skipped in his case.

 

I do know that there is a certain procedure when it comes to sainthood, that it involves three steps (including naming someone venerable, like Mother Teresa, and then beatification, or sainthood, like Juan Diego, the Indian who saw the Blessed Mother in Mexico in 1531 and helped "set" Christianity among the indigenous, or Padre Pio, the Italian priest). This involves "proving" miracles people claim said person is responsible for, and often, that takes years to confirm. In Mother Teresa's case, JPII cut that time down, because the process began something like five years after her death. My guess is because he had a very personal interest in seeing his beloved buddy beatified!

 

Something about if his body deteriorates at a certain rate he can then be called upon in prayer for a set number of years

 

I think, according to Church guidelines, John Paul falls under the title "holy men and women." We've got something called "the litany of the saints," sung at the Easter vigil Masses and when priests are ordained (the two times I've heard it done). The cantor sings out the names of the Jesus and the saints one by one, and the congregation sings back, "pray for us" (a form of intercessory prayer, petitioning the communion of saints for their prayers, based on the thought that they -- tried and true in their love of Christ -- have his ear). Towards the end of the litany, there's a part that's sung, "All you holy men and women, pray for us." My guess is that this is where John Paul falls at this time, among God's holy men and women.

 

my personal speculation is that John Paul will be canonized for his evangelization, or the sharing of Christ with those around him. And that he will be a patron saint of the young (for his work with youth) and possibly for the seriously ill/dying (like Terri Schiavo).

[HokeyReligions]

Stupid Local News! I knew it wasn't right when I heard their mumbling about determining when a Pope is eligible for sainthood based on the decomposition rate of his his body!

 

Dont'cha just hate it when Fundamental Old-Southern Baptists try to guess about other religions!

 

 

Now, about that silver hammer they are supposed to knock him on the head with three times.......

 

 

(I find Catholic pageantry and traditions very interesting, and I don't mean that in a put-down way, I'm fascinated by it all)

 

 

Oh! and I missed it this time, did they send up the black/white smoke when the Pope died? Are they going to do that to announce a new pope? It's been a while, but I remember before this Pope and there was something about black and white smoke to announce death and the official election of a new Pope. It seems like there were several Pontiff's in a very short period of time before JP.

 

Oh, and does each new Pope choose his own name, is there a formula for that, are the names already set in advance (like hurricane's)? I'm sorry if I'm upsetting anyone, but look at it this way -- even in death he is inspiring at least one old agnostic to ask some questions.

[HoldOn]

No problem!

 

Ha ha about the hammer thing! I guess that was before they knew how to check a pulse.

 

Anyway, the white and black smoke happens when they are voting for a new pope. After the ballots are counted, they determine if there is the needed 2/3 majority to elect the new pope. If not they just burn the ballots and the smoke is black. Then they vote again.

 

If they have elected a new pope, then they put a chemical in the fire and the smoke comes out white.

 

This year, they'll also be ringing the church bells, in case people can't tell if the smoke is white or black. Also, JPII changed the rules and said if the cardinals decide to use a simple majority instead of a 2/3 majority, they could do that.

 

And each pope gets to decide what his name will be. JP II chose his name because the pope before him was JPI. JPI was only pope for 28 days before he died. He chose his name based on the two prior popes, who were named John and Paul (with numbers after them.) Basically, I think he chose the name to show continuance in the church.

 

http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/name.asp

[quankanne]

don't believe everything the secular media tells you! heck, even I'M still learning things about my church, and I've worked for a Catholic newspaper for a decade!!!!

 

• hammer -- hahahaha, you're the second person who's asked about it (the other being my rather irreverent colleague ... 'Bang, bang, Maxwell Silver's hammer went down upon his head ...'). From what I've read, the pope's given name (what he was given at baptism) is called out three times. If he doesn't answer, it's a foregone conclusion the guy is dead. This is the church tradition, though I'm pretty sure they also stick with the results of medical tests.

 

• embalming -- two priests have told me that it's a personal choice, that whoever prepared the pope's body did the rudimentary work of caring for the fluids, then stopped at John Paul's directive to not embalm his body

 

• smoke -- this is done to signify the vote of the college of cardinals; white (pure smoke) means a pope has been elected and has agreed to take the job, and black (with an additive to show coloration) for "no pope yet"

 

• announcing JPII's death -- Catholic News Service said that in this instance, the cardinal/official in charge of notifying the media of the pope's death used email to get the word out

 

• vote -- John Paul called for a change in the voting process: for the first 12 days, it'll be done traditionally, or by 2/3 majority vote. If no pope is elected during that time, it switches to something like simple majority plus one vote.

 

• names -- if you do a web search, you'll find a lot of names repeated. And most of those are saint's names!

 

one of the priests suggested looking at EWTN's site or a Catholic encyclopedia site for additional answers. Another good site is Catholic News Service, which is pretty much my standard place to look.

 

in a previous post, I'd mention the "holy men and women" thing -- Father D said that those are the "many millions of saintly people who've not been canonized and who aren't known to all, but still holy men and women of God."

 

I find Catholic pageantry and traditions very interesting

 

yeah, there's a wealth of T/tradition in the Catholic Church!

[moimeme]

We've got something called "the litany of the saints," sung at the Easter vigil Masses and when priests are ordained (the two times I've heard it done).

 

You've only ever heard it twice? Wonder if it's local traditions or what. I've always loved the litanies - something very nice about the whole thing. I admit I haven't heard one for a while but I think that's because I don't attend Mass that much anymore.

[HokeyReligions]

Thank you all! I knew I could count on fellow 'shackers to give me some answers that made sense and weren't so technical I had to strain my brain to understand 'em!

 

I'll check out the link/news sites that you all mentioned when I have more time to really focus on what I'm reading. I've been working 12-14 hour days this week to get a proposal out, but I always take a few minutes to check in at LS.

[quankanne]

You've only ever heard it twice?

 

I prolly should correct myself to say, the two types of occasions I've heard the litany of the saints sung has been at Easter vigils and at ordinations. I'm sure they do it elsewhere, but these are the most common Masses I remember. Maybe also heard at a high Mass? I'll have to remember to ask

 

I've always loved the litanies - something very nice about the whole thing

 

yeah, they always make me go teary-eyed, because they sound so beautiful, and the thought of someone up there praying for us here on earth just moves me ...

[quankanne]

I knew I could count on fellow 'shackers to give me some answers that made sense and weren't so technical I had to strain my brain to understand 'em!

 

yer mighty welcome, hokey

 

HEY! is that your snake-handling picture?

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Eh, the Catholics do a lot of wierd stuff that has no real reason behind it. Get used to it.

[quankanne]

Catholics do a lot of wierd stuff that has no real reason behind it

 

all of our Traditions are based in Scripture ... and contrary to popular (mis)belief, we believe strongly in and affirm Christ as our Lord and Savior.

[HoldOn]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens

Eh, the Catholics do a lot of wierd stuff that has no real reason behind it. Get used to it.

 

Some people are strongly anti-Catholic with no real reason behind it. Maybe they should educate themselves.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

To my knowledge, the Bible makes no mention of any "pope"...

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens

To my knowledge, the Bible makes no mention of any "pope"...

 

Which Bible?

 

Eh, the Catholics do a lot of wierd stuff that has no real reason behind it. Get used to it.

 

Its too bad that you seem to have a sarcastic attitude / narrow mind about it. You are only hurting yourself by not opening yourself to new knowledge, or at least practicing some social skills in demonstrating respect for others beliefs.

 

Learning about Catholics, or any religion, is not the same as worship. Baptist do some pretty strange things too, as do Protestants, 7th Day Adventists, Muslim, Jehovas Witness, Voodoo, etc. ad nauseum. The first time I heard someone start talking in 'tongues' during a service I was very surprised and even more so when no one else was rushing to aid the person having a nervious breakdown!

 

People interpret the Bible in different ways and each faith has its own traditions and methods of worship. If you don't find it an interesting topic -- and many don't, there is nothing wrong with that -- it makes me wonder why you decided to reply to this thread at all?

 

Its interesting to learn about these things from an intellectual POV. I wanted to be able to understand some of the traditions / events surrounding this bit of history and be able to discuss them with others intelligently.

 

I know, I'm derailing my own thread.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by HoldOn

Some people are strongly anti-Catholic with no real reason behind it. Maybe they should educate themselves.

 

My mother raised me that way, because she was raised that way. It was a litany of sorts drilled into our heads. Catholics are bad. They worship ordinary people and not God. They pray to statues. They are pagans, etc. She never questioned her mother and when I was young I never questioned either.

 

But, as I got older I questioned everything! (which is why I'm agnostic)

 

The more I learn the more I see where these old false impressions came from -- on both sides.

[HoldOn]

The more I learn the more I see where these old false impressions came from -- on both sides.

 

There sure are plenty of false impressions on both sides!

 

To my knowledge, the Bible makes no mention of any "pope"...

 

I suspect you are asking a rhetorical question... But I will answer you anyway! And probably give more information than anyone ever wanted... I swear I am not a religious fanatic, but I happen to know a lot about it.

 

 

--------

First, you should understand that the Catholic Church bases its beliefs on the Bible AND Tradition. Wheras many protestant churches follow the idea of "sola scriptura" meaning they'll only believe or follow something if it is in the bible. (Although, that many people have different interpretations of what that means.)

 

Therefore, even if something isn't in the bible, Catholics can believe it because it is based in Tradition.

 

However, there is support for the pope in the Bible:

BIBLE

1.) Matthew 16:13-19 "And so I say to you, you are Peter [Rock] and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Jesus knew that Peter would be die, so he must have intended the office of Peter to last until the end of time. Why would he give this power to anyone if he did not intend to pass it on.

 

2.) Luke 22:31-32 (Jesus prays that Peter's faith would not fail; Peter in turn would strengthen the other aspostles ) John 21:15-17. (Jesus makes Peter the shephard of his church)

 

3.) Acts 15. the first Church council is trying to decide whether Gentiles had to follow the Law of Moses. (meaning whether gentile converts had to be circumsized). There was much discussion. However, after Peter spoke, the assembly fell silent and teh discussion was ended.

 

TRADITION:

1.) Early Church accepted the Bishop of Rom as the head of the Church.

2.) St. Irenaues (circa 180-200) stressed that Christians must be united to the Church of Rome in order to maintain the Apostolic Tradition.

 

LOGIC:

A church with one leader to decide contraversies can help decide issues and prevent schisms in the church (Of course, it can't prevent all schisms!) But Catholics believe that the one voice of the pope keeps their church on the one path.

[moimeme]

Its too bad that you seem to have a sarcastic attitude / narrow mind about it

 

Oh, but he's an intellectual! We know because he's told us so!!

[quankanne]

nicely explained, holdon!

 

for those curious about these things, the April 11 commemorative edition of Time magazine describes "The Path to a New Pontiff" -- the small silver hammer is mentioned, as is the tradition of destroying the ring of the Fisherman, the mourning period and the conclave/election of a new pope.

 

the easiest way to sum up the Catholic Church is to say that it's steeped in a lot of ritual, a lot of mysticism and a lot of T/tradition -- and sacred Scripture, but in the 2000 years of its existence, it's remained a constant. Some of those traditions have been updated (allowing girls to serve as accolytes during the Mass) while others were kicked to the curbside (such as Jews being responsible for the death of Christ), but the integrity of the Church remains. We've had schisms and schisms of the schisms of the the schisms, evident in the numerous Protestant sects or faiths founded since Luther tacked his Thesis on the doors of the church, what? 500 years ago. More recently, she's taken serious blows due to the sins of pedophile priests, but she's still standing …. All these things have made me seriously think about the Gospel passage of Matthew (16:13-19) in which Christ says that even the gates of Hell shall not prevail against his Church.

[HoldOn]

nicely explained, holdon!

 

Thank you. I had some help from an apologetics pamplet.

 

 

Christ says that even the gates of Hell shall not prevail against his Church.

 

Yeah, the church has been through a lot of horrible things and still continues on!

[BlockHead]

moimeme

Oh, but he's an intellectual! We know because he's told us so!!

What are you talking about and who are quoting?

 

We could avoid a lot of confusion if some people would CITE their sources. It can be something as simple as the screen name of the person you are quoting. A link would also help. Look at my example.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Guys, take it easy. I was just joking. I have as much contempt for most other religions as I do for Catholicism.