She Ruined My Life, and I Let Her

[Hope Shimmers]

I'm the same way too. Women, talkin' about cars, as if they knew what the were talkin' about.

 

The fall and decline of western civilization.

 

We just can't ever please you, road, can we?

[Hope Shimmers]

Ever learned to double clutch? Ever even heard of it?)

 

I don't know what that is, but I can tell you for sure that I don't need any more ways to get into driving trouble.

 

I'll stop on that now.

 

LifeWiser, I am mad for you too (per my post on the other thread that you replied to).

 

I don't know if cheaters are 'born' or 'made'. I do see particular tendencies that tend to repeat in spouses who are unfaithful.

 

Fellini - you said that you gave your wife a second chance because you like how the 3 of you (with your child) are together. I would say that perhaps that didn't mean as much to her as it does to you, for her to do what she did. Again, I just can't fathom it, but who am I to judge.

[fellini]

One of the reasons, I didn't give them all, its not my thread.

 

During her affair, in fact, that was exactly what happened. She immersed herself in her work at the university and I increased my time and quality of relationship with our then 8 year old daughter. Anyone who has an 8 year old knows this is an incredible time to enjoy them so I managed everything in her life: swimming, ballet, art, in the park, school drop off and pickup and lunches all the while keeping up with my own business. Essentially the time of the affair during both their school year we cut back on just family get together. But she was very adept at hiding whatever she was feeling during long weekends and holiday periods. Nothing seemed amiss.

 

This caused my wife a lot of pain, after dday to see how much she had given up of both of us, and she has adjusted her life in order to recover what she lost and become part of the team again. It took her over 6 months to really feel the closeness in the daily life of our daughter again. in fact during the first weeks of dday she told me if we were going to separate, she would be the one to go because she didn't have the same quality and trust that she could see I had. During our subsequent structured separation she kept her word and moved in with her mother during this short period.

 

Today it would be me that would probably leave given the turnaround between the two of them.

 

Fellini - you said that you gave your wife a second chance because you like how the 3 of you (with your child) are together. I would say that perhaps that didn't mean as much to her as it does to you, for her to do what she did. Again, I just can't fathom it, but who am I to judge.

[Hope Shimmers]

One of the reasons, I didn't give them all, its not my thread.

 

During her affair, in fact, that was exactly what happened. She immersed herself in her work at the university and I increased my time and quality of relationship with our then 8 year old daughter. Anyone who has an 8 year old knows this is an incredible time to enjoy them so I managed everything in her life: swimming, ballet, art, in the park, school drop off and pickup and lunches all the while keeping up with my own business. Essentially the time of the affair during both their school year we cut back on just family get together. But she was very adept at hiding whatever she was feeling during long weekends and holiday periods. Nothing seemed amiss.

 

This caused my wife a lot of pain, after dday to see how much she had given up of both of us, and she has adjusted her life in order to recover what she lost and become part of the team again. It took her over 6 months to really feel the closeness in the daily life of our daughter again. in fact during the first weeks of dday she told me if we were going to separate, she would be the one to go because she didn't have the same quality and trust that she could see I had. During our subsequent structured separation she kept her word and moved in with her mother during this short period.

 

Today it would be me that would probably leave given the turnaround between the two of them.

 

I hear you, and I apologize if I was putting words in your mouth.

 

When I think of my situation when I was married, it leads me to conclude that maybe things aren't as black and white as "cheaters are born that way". I was in the world's crappiest marriage for over 15 years. He is an abuser both emotionally and physically and he took it out on me. He still is an abuser to this day, and can't stay in a relationship because of it.

 

I stayed so long for stupid reasons, but the point is, sometimes I wonder why I didn't cheat on him. I sure as heck had plenty of opportunity. And if I had done so, what kind of person would that make me? If there are NO excuses for cheating, then it would have made me a born cheater. I have trouble with that notion.

[LifeWasted]

I don't know if cheaters are 'born' or 'made'. I do see particular tendencies that tend to repeat in spouses who are unfaithful.

.

 

I do not think they are born.

 

I think some people have personality disorders like BPD and Narcissism. But just because a person has BPD or narcissism doesn't necessarily mean they will choose to cheat on a spouse.

 

I think a person lands in a situation where they are presented with a choice: throw away all the morals, ethics and good sense that they have had most of their lives for a few minutes of physical pleasure.

 

Then if they choose yes, they are faced with a second choice: do I do this again and maybe again, and again, or do I choose never to do such an awful thing again... plus I am going to get some kind of help so I can figure out why I said "yes" to the first choice.

 

My xWGF chose poorly, both times.

[fellini]

And you said you didn't agree with a single post of mine. :-)

 

I agree, cheaters cheat because an opportunity presents itself and combines with some issues they may be having (which is just enough to nudge them to do what on a better day they wouldnt) or simply catches them off guard. There are others of course, but without opportunity I truly believe A lot of infidelities would not occur, and instead people discover other avenues to escape.

 

 

 

I do not think they are born.

 

I think some people have personality disorders like BPD and Narcissism. But just because a person has BPD or narcissism doesn't necessarily mean they will choose to cheat on a spouse.

 

I think a person lands in a situation where they are presented with a choice: throw away all the morals, ethics and good sense that they have had most of their lives for a few minutes of physical pleasure.

 

Then if they choose yes, they are faced with a second choice: do I do this again and maybe again, and again, or do I choose never to do such an awful thing again... plus I am going to get some kind of help so I can figure out why I said "yes" to the first choice.

 

My xWGF chose poorly, both times.

[road]

We just can't ever please you, road, can we?

 

 

 

 

That's ok. Just keep trying.

[road]

I stayed so long for stupid reasons, but the point is, sometimes I wonder why I didn't cheat on him. I sure as heck had plenty of opportunity. And if I had done so, what kind of person would that make me? If there are NO excuses for cheating, then it would have made me a born cheater. I have trouble with that notion.

 

 

Not a born cheater. A person that would of made a bad decision.

[autumnnight]

Cheating is a horrific choice. There are other horrific choices. Is everyone who has made what someone else considers a horrific choice born bad? Was that 22 year old who was stupid enough to get behind the wheel after a frat party and kills someone in an accident born a murderer? Was the woman who held up a convenience store because she had no money, no place to go, and had a baby to feed a born thief?

 

The above acts are terrible, they hurt people, and they are illegal to boot. But I would venture that no one here would say those people were born thieves or murderers. They had choices, and they choose VERY VERY badly. The person who makes the terrible choice to cheat, but who turns that choice around, STOPS making it, and changes (and yes, you can argue all you want, but there is more scientific proof people DO change than that they don't)....was likely NOT a born cheater.

 

The rub? That does NOT mean the person they cheated on has to stick around and watch the change or reconcile. THAT is an individual choice that only the person IN the midst of it can make. Felini made the choice to stay. LW made the choice to leave. Both of those choices are valid and brave.

[writergal]

Cheating is definitely a choice, not a mistake. Interesting to learn that scientists have discovered the "infidelity gene."

 

Scientists Discover Gene Responsible for Cheating and Promiscuous Sex Habits - ABC News

[LifeWasted]

To bad we here weren't born with the DRD5 Idontgiveacrapifyougojumpoffabridge gene huh?

[LifeWasted]

And you said you didn't agree with a single post of mine. :-)

 

 

Let me rephrase...before I fall asleep (I'm fried from work today). I do agree with many of your points. I do not agree with some of your logic, or the thought process by which you come up with some of your opinions. But your opinions are valid, as are your thoughts, and I will respect your right to express them.

[10thengineerharrison]

And you said you didn't agree with a single post of mine. :-)

 

It could have been worse, perhaps. Paraphrasing Ted Cruz:

 

"I don't agree with a single WORD of your posts!"

 

[Satu]

One of the most useful principles in relationships is the statement made famous by the surgeon Thomas Inman:

 

"First do no harm."

 

We have no right to do harm to the people we're with.

 

Ever.

[autumnnight]

Cheating is definitely a choice, not a mistake. Interesting to learn that scientists have discovered the "infidelity gene."

 

Scientists Discover Gene Responsible for Cheating and Promiscuous Sex Habits - ABC News

 

Never said it was a mistake. There is no gene that dooms someone to cheat. I get why some people need to believe that to feel better, safer, superior, whatever. But the idea that someone is "born bad" in this particular way is just not accurate. Period.

 

Anyway, proving everyone who has ever cheated (like some of the people here such as Mrs. Adams and others) are just inherently and permanently evil does nothing to help the OP move on.

 

LW, no matter what motivated or molded your ex, she blew it with you. She proved herself untrustworthy. You've made the decision to move on and not ruminate endlessly, and I applaud you for that.

[10thengineerharrison]

On another forum, many years ago and far, far away I posted some thoughts i had about why cheaters do what they do, and what it means to those of us who chose to stay married to them. At the time, I thought it was pretty insightful stuff, but now I'm having a hard time remembering what I said. I'll see if I can find it one of these days.

 

My wife had a VLTA, always low-key and with very infrequent hookups (and allegedly seldom for that reason alone). Looking back after d-day, I just thought my marriage was mediocre, and I dealt with it the best I could knowing as little I did as to the reason. D-day was over 13 years ago now, thank goodness. But it took several years for us to get back on our feet, and there has remained a certain level of mistrust or suspicion since. Not to say our marriage isn't good, it is. In ways I don't think it'll be easy to describe, so I don't think I will (and it's not that relevant to this thread anyway).

 

But I do feel as though cheaters have a flaw that goes beyond something they can correct by simply making better choices or having firmer boundaries. And it's because the very act of cheating is a good indicator that intimacy means something very different to the cheater than to the betrayed.

 

I'm 62, and am pretty sure I will never cheat. I may have been tempted a few times before d-day, but I haven't after. The thought is rather repulsive.

 

-10th Engineer Harrison

[SycamoreCircle]

LifeWasted, just read your story.

 

I'm thoroughly convinced that your business is going to thrive, your reputation is going to spread, and in a matter of months you're going to meet a gorgeous, caring woman that has her life together minus a terrific companion.

 

Just keep doing what you're doing.

[Dangraystyle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PORhDvqXVrU

 

 

Take your life to the next level OP

[Hope Shimmers]

That's ok. Just keep trying.

 

I live and breathe merely as an attempt to please you, road.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I live and breathe merely as an attempt to please you, road.

 

LMAO Hope...good one!!!!:laugh:

[fellini]

I tend to agree. Making better choices is the result of some deeper change required. I believe this level of change removes cheating as an option. Or reduces the risk one will choose to cheat. Another issue is the willingness vs control to explore the limits of boundaries, and i strongly believe these are learned behaviours like good manners and displaying empathy.

 

Surely it's cognitive at least.

 

That said, I also disagree that there is an infidelity gene. Why it may be true that there is a genetic explanation to sex drive, cheating has to be a choice. Marriage, cohabitation, vows, are all social constructs and thus are cognitive, not genetic driven.

 

If i have a gene that is pronounced for promiscuity I'm not going to settle in a 20 marriage.

 

Like the brain in love theory of Helen Fisher, chemistry can only tell us how it works, it cannot explain the choices we make and the persons we enter into agreements with.

 

 

On another forum, many years ago and far, far away I've posted some thoughts i had about why cheaters do what they do, and what it means to those of us who chose to stay married to them. At the time, I thought it was pretty insightful stuff, but now I'm having a hard time remembering what I said. I'll see if I can find it one of these days.

 

My wife had a VLTA, always low-key and with very infrequent hookups (and allegedly seldom for that reason alone). Looking back after d-day, I just thought my marriage was mediocre, and I dealt with it the best I could knowing as little I did as to the reason. D-day was over 13 years ago now, thank goodness. But it took several years for us to get back on our feet, and there has remained a certain level of mistrust or suspicion since. Not to say our marriage isn't good, it is. In ways I don't think it'll be easy to describe, so I don't think I will (and it's not that relevant to this thread anyway).

 

But I do feel as though cheaters have a flaw that goes beyond something they can correct by simply making better choices or having firmer boundaries. And it's because the very act of cheating is a good indicator that intimacy means something very different to the cheater than to the betrayed.

 

I'm 62, and am pretty sure I will never cheat. I may have been tempted a few times before d-day, but I haven't after. The thought is rather repulsive.

 

-10th Engineer Harrison

Edited April 4, 2015 by fellini

[LifeWasted]

LifeWasted, just read your story.

 

I'm thoroughly convinced that your business is going to thrive, your reputation is going to spread, and in a matter of months you're going to meet a gorgeous, caring woman that has her life together minus a terrific companion.

 

Just keep doing what you're doing.

 

I just priced out and received the go-ahead to restore an 1875 cherry wood spiral staircase that has become unsafe due to neglect. The lady we are contracted with has been looking for a carpenter who had the skills to do this for twenty years and had been unable to find one.

 

Then I come along.

[LifeWasted]

I live and breathe merely as an attempt to please you, road.

 

Since she started reading your posts Road, her lips only exist to eat chocolate and kiss your ass.

[writergal]

That said, I also disagree that there is an infidelity gene. Why it may be true that there is a genetic explanation to sex drive, cheating has to be a choice. Marriage, cohabitation, vows, are all social constructs and thus are cognitive, not genetic driven.

 

If i have a gene that is pronounced for promiscuity I'm not going to settle in a 20 marriage.

 

Like the brain in love theory of Helen Fisher, chemistry can only tell us how it works, it cannot explain the choices we make and the persons we enter into agreements with.

 

Au contraire mon fellini. If you have a gene that is pronounced for promiscuity, that doesn't mean that you won't settle into a 20 year marriage. Examples of cheating spouses still married: former POTUS Bill Clinton (huge cheater with his former aide Monica Lewinsky) is still married to his wife Hillary Clinton. Also, Arnold Schwarzenegger cheated on his wife Maria Shriver and fathered illegitimate children with his housekeeper, yet he's STILL married. So, maybe YOU won't leave your wife for cheating on you but you shouldn't tout your opinion as fact that a real cheater wouldn't get married or stay married. Cheaters, like sociopaths, conform to societal norms to fit in and hide their true behavior that is non-conforming.

 

And I think you need to hit your evolutionary textbooks again too, because all of our choices are genetically driven, not cognitively. Do you know the difference between genetic and cognitive? In nature, there are organisms and animals which are assexual, bisexual, gay, or heterosexual.

 

Are you going to tell me that assexual starfish cognitively CHOSE to be that way? That's like saying gay people (who are genetically gay) are cognitively attracted to people of the same sex, not genetically. Thus, based on your poor logic, all gay people are making a cognitive choice, to follow the social trend of being with a same sex partner and that their choice is not genetically driven, therefore they are not really gay.

 

While I believe that cheating on a spouse is a choice, I do believe that choice has genetic roots to it, as explained by a neuroscientist who published Our Genes, Our Choices. Now, you and Autumn Night don't have to agree with me or the peer reviewed published scientists who discovered the sexually promiscuous gene. But it is my opinion, that the choices people make where cheating is concerned, is not a cognitive choice alone, but has a genetic root to it. Our genes determine our eye color, hair color and skin color and sexual identity. Those are not cognitive choices. Genes determine our gender identity, what ice cream we like. Genes determine everything! Cognition is driven by our genes. If you are going to deny the existence of how genes influence our behavior, then you will have to present a really strong (non religious) argument to me.

Edited April 4, 2015 by writergal

[fellini]

You seem to have it, once again, ass backwards, so to speak.

 

Simply put. If I was gay, as you say, there is a gene for that. Granted.

 

But that gene cannot make me have sex with a person of the same gender. And more importantly, that gene cannot stop me from making the decision to have sexual intercourse with a person of the other sex. i.e. against my genetic makeup.

 

Yeah fine, my eyes are blue, my hair is brown, I'm left handed etc. etc.

 

But a gene can no more change my choice of who to sleep with as it can determine for me my control over my value system. Most people have a gene for reproduction, according to you. But still across the planet untold millions of people voluntarily abstain from sexual intercourse: for all kinds of reasons (religous, or not). You either underestimate cognitive skills or over estimate articles written in ABC.com.

 

 

 

As I said before , science isn't the answer to everything.

 

 

 

Au contraire mon fellini. If you have a gene that is pronounced for promiscuity, that doesn't mean that you won't settle into a 20 year marriage. Examples of cheating spouses still married: former POTUS Bill Clinton (huge cheater with his former aide Monica Lewinsky) is still married to his wife Hillary Clinton. Also, Arnold Schwarzenegger cheated on his wife Maria Shriver and fathered illegitimate children with his housekeeper, yet he's STILL married. So, maybe YOU won't leave your wife for cheating on you but you shouldn't tout your opinion as fact that a real cheater wouldn't get married or stay married. Cheaters, like sociopaths, conform to societal norms to fit in and hide their true behavior that is non-conforming.

 

And I think you need to hit your evolutionary textbooks again too, because all of our choices are genetically driven, not cognitively. Do you know the difference between genetic and cognitive? In nature, there are organisms and animals which are assexual, bisexual, gay, or heterosexual.

 

Are you going to tell me that assexual starfish cognitively CHOSE to be that way? That's like saying gay people (who are genetically gay) are cognitively attracted to people of the same sex, not genetically. Thus, based on your poor logic, all gay people are making a cognitive choice, to follow the social trend of being with a same sex partner and that their choice is not genetically driven, therefore they are not really gay.

 

While I believe that cheating on a spouse is a choice, I do believe that choice has genetic roots to it, as explained by a neuroscientist who published Our Genes, Our Choices. Now, you and Autumn Night don't have to agree with me or the peer reviewed published scientists who discovered the sexually promiscuous gene. But it is my opinion, that the choices people make where cheating is concerned, is not a cognitive choice alone, but has a genetic root to it. Our genes determine our eye color, hair color and skin color and sexual identity. Those are not cognitive choices. Genes determine our gender identity, what ice cream we like. Genes determine everything! Cognition is driven by our genes. If you are going to deny the existence of how genes influence our behavior, then you will have to present a really strong (non religious) argument to me.