Was the OM or OW a predator in your case?

[HereNorThere]

TThe term Psychopath describes the OM in my situation perfectly.

 

 

I would like to point out that true "psychopathy" (which is actually an outdated diagnosis and is usually referred to as antisocial/dissocial personality disorder) is quite rare in society. According to the NIMH, less that 9% of the population has a true personality disorder. Then you can narrow that even further when you divide it by the vast number of different Cluster B, Axis 2, type disorders, and you're left with such a small percentage of the population that your chance of actually encountering a true "psychopath" is pretty small.

Edited March 10, 2015 by HereNorThere

[carhill]

A well paid private investigator provided all these bits of info to me.

 

Sorry, I meant to answer your question at the end of my post. Having all this information allows me to see all sides of what happened and to see the big picture of how things started, why they progressed and what really happened and when. It allows me to have empathy for her, to corroborate what she tells me as truth. And while I've not yet let her know this I do see her as a victim in part.

 

Thanks.... When drilling down to specific interactions, meaning those between yourselves as marital partners, how would you say your empathy for her based on your firm conviction that she was a victim of a sociopathic predator impacts those interactions? I mention this because empathy is an emotion and emotions are impetuses for behaviors and behavioral decisions and processes.

 

From life experience, you can extrapolate your behaviors absent empathy and compare them to those predicated upon the emotion of empathy.

 

Using an example, though I have no way of 'proving' it, my exW revealed early on that she had been a rape victim and the rape resulted in a later abortion and subsequent infertility with her other husbands and myself. Having empathy for rape victims, I behaved differently in our sexual life than I might have otherwise with a woman who didn't identify herself as such. I also approached our infertility differently than I might have otherwise. Empathy colored my processes and behaviors.

 

How has it gone for you?

[autumnnight]

I would like to point out that true "psychopathy" (which is actually an outdated diagnosis and is usually referred to as antisocial/dissocial personality disorder) is quite rare in society. According to the NIMH, less that 9% of the population has a true personality disorder. Then you can narrow that even further when you divide it by the vast number of different Cluster B, Axis 2, type disorders, and you're left with such a small percentage of the population that your chance of actually encountering a true "psychopath" is pretty small.

 

And yet every cheater is NPD/BPD/Biploar ad nauseum ad nauseum.....

[DKT3]

Too trusting, too naive and he manipulated her.

 

How does this change anything moving forward? Maybe she was preyed on, maybe she was manipulated. What says that with that being the case she won't fall prey again?

 

What your doing will never be a long term benefit for your marriage. Trust me I did then what your doing now. It only caused more damage.

 

If your plan is to have a strong marriage moving forward you can't allow her accountibility to be deflected into something you can control. Doing so will keep you stuck in a place where you feel you have to protect her from all the evil marriage breaking men out there. It will drive you bat s h I t crazy.

 

Him being a predator, or manipulating her simply doesn't excuse her. It doesn't explain how she got to the point (emotionally connected) where it was possible. It just doesn't change anything moving forward.

 

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER, HOLD HER 100% ACCOUNTABLE FOR HER ACTIONS.

[Mrs. John Adams]

How many times does this man vbm have to say he holds his wife 100% accountable for her actions?

 

In the last 2 days I bet he has stated it at least 10 times. He and his wife hold her 100% accountable.

 

He is not unblaming his wife by pointing out the kind of man she became involved with...he is simply telling us the personality and traits the OM pocessed.

 

He feels the man pursued his wife....he feels the man set out to get her. Why is that so hard to believe? And how is that information shifting the blame from his wife to the OM? He is not saying she did not willingly participate...she did! He is not saying she was helpless...or that she could not have stopped.

 

Do you not believe that affairs happen because people are in the right state of mind in the right circumstances with the right opportunities ?

[Mr. Lucky]

I do see her as a victim in part.

He and his wife hold her 100% accountable.

 

Pick one or the other, you can't have both...

 

Mr. Lucky

[VeryBrokenMan]

Pick one or the other, you can't have both...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Absolutely you can. A good example is a child molester that is jailed for their crime but who themselves were molested is a victim. You can separate how the crime was committed from holding that person accountable for the crime. Extenuating circumstances can exist.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think the reason it works for some men is that they have qualities that appeals to the ww. Perhaps they are good looking and the wife is flattered that "he" would give her attention. Perhaps he is exciting and that is appealing to a bored housewife. Perhaps he is just giving her attention and she is attention starved. There was something about the om that she was willing to throw her marriage away to obtain the affection of the om. I am sure others have hit on your wife, perhaps they did not have the qualities that she found irrestiable. In the end, she was willing to throw it all away for the om. Perhaps the answer is in why she would be willing to do this?

 

This really made me think.

 

What was it about the OM that caused me to be willing to throw it all away?

I have been flirted with and complimented many times in my life...and yet...I did not react the way I reacted with him. Why? What was different about this particular man and this time?

 

I think I was in the right frame of mind in the right circumstance with the right opportunity...and I reacted in a way I had never reacted before and have not reacted since.

 

Some have asked the question...how can you be sure your wife will never cheat again? You can't. Just like you can't know that if you divorce and remarry the new wife won't do it.

 

Life does not come with Instruction manuals and guarantees....and we sometimes make mistakes and bad decisions...and sometimes we learn lessons and never repeat those decisions again....and sometimes we make the same bad decision over and over.

 

We are given freedom of choice...and lots of people make bad choices everyday.

I have made many in my lifetime...I own them...I don't blame others for the foolish things I do. I accept responsibility for my actions...and I try everyday to be a better person than I was the day before. Some days I am successful...some days I am not.

[VeryBrokenMan]

How does this change anything moving forward? Maybe she was preyed on, maybe she was manipulated. What says that with that being the case she won't fall prey again?

 

What your doing will never be a long term benefit for your marriage. Trust me I did then what your doing now. It only caused more damage.

 

If your plan is to have a strong marriage moving forward you can't allow her accountibility to be deflected into something you can control. Doing so will keep you stuck in a place where you feel you have to protect her from all the evil marriage breaking men out there. It will drive you bat s h I t crazy.

 

Him being a predator, or manipulating her simply doesn't excuse her. It doesn't explain how she got to the point (emotionally connected) where it was possible. It just doesn't change anything moving forward.

 

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER, HOLD HER 100% ACCOUNTABLE FOR HER ACTIONS.

 

The change is: NOW she sees the bad in people. She had no clue before this that men could be manipulative and deceptive to get sex. But you need to understand she has not used this predator defense AT ANY TIME. She has NOT ONCE blamed the OM. Him being a predator does not excuse her in the least but it lets me see (with an open mind) what really happened. What you want to believe is that she went looking for it because she was (insert your reason here) and that is simply not the case. I have the proof in the texts, it's not a question of her telling the truth about it. He aggressively went after a naive married women and lied to her about his feelings to get sex. That is a predator.

[Rainbowlove]

He aggressively went after a naive married women and lied to her about his feelings to get sex. That is a predator.

 

VBM, I think everyone just wants to make sure you are not taking your anger for OM and placing all the blame on him.

 

Truth is, Kate Winslet (I'm a gay gal) could walk into my office right now and whisper all kind of wonderful things in my ear...she could do this for months, but I had better keep my boundaries in check.

 

It doesn't matter if it's a predator or prince making advances, we need to be in control of ourselves.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mr lucky...if he views the OM as a predator...then he of course will see his wife as the victim....and she made the choice to allow herself to become the victim.

 

The OM can be a predator.....but she does not have to be the victim.

 

If he had pursued her...and she shut him down...would he still be a predator?

His personality type is that of a predator....but the predator does not always win.

 

She was not helpless...she could have walked away ...she chose to let the predator win....she chose to be his victim....which means that she is 100% responsible.

[JohnAdams]

He aggressively went after a naive married women and lied to her about his feelings to get sex. That is a predator.

 

I hear what you are saying and I agree that he went after a naive married woman for sex. I am sure he lied about his feelings to her. But, would it be different if he was not lying and did love her? She bought his story hoping that he did indeed love her. If he had loved her, would she have left you?

[DKT3]

How many times does this man vbm have to say he holds his wife 100% accountable for her actions?

 

In the last 2 days I bet he has stated it at least 10 times. He and his wife hold her 100% accountable.

 

He is not unblaming his wife by pointing out the kind of man she became involved with...he is simply telling us the personality and traits the OM pocessed.

 

He feels the man pursued his wife....he feels the man set out to get her. Why is that so hard to believe? And how is that information shifting the blame from his wife to the OM? He is not saying she did not willingly participate...she did! He is not saying she was helpless...or that she could not have stopped.

 

Do you not believe that affairs happen because people are in the right state of mind in the right circumstances with the right opportunities ?

His words say so, yet his heart and ego won't truly allow him to believe his words.

 

My point is, why does it matter? It matters to him NOW because its helping him justify staying in the marriage.

 

In the betrayed male ego driven mind, its easier to accept "yeah she did this BUT if it wasn't for...." as I said truth me I know. Long term this does very little good. Her motivation for doing what she did is far more important then anything OM did to bed her. So what he was a predator, he lied to and manipulated her. Making that true doesn't help OP, if om loved her or not it doesn't take away his pain or make the long run over all health of their marriage any better. Circumstances of the affair don't help the marriage. As I'm said, he is trying to justify staying in the marriage (to himself), therefore his words of claiming her accountable aren't honest ones, he is and has blamed himself and OM.

 

Thus shifting blame makes it easier to accept his wife's cheating, and more importantly gives him a factor of her fidelity that he can control. I had about 40 hours of IC on this very subject. Its all about control, his ability to control this from happening again. If its OM fault then getting him gone means she won't do it again, if its his fault it means he can change and she won't do it again. None of this is true, her finding her motivation (that allowed om be be in a position to do these thing), and why she thought it was ok are what controls if she does it again. All of which is totally out of VBM hands

[VeryBrokenMan]

Thanks.... When drilling down to specific interactions, meaning those between yourselves as marital partners, how would you say your empathy for her based on your firm conviction that she was a victim of a sociopathic predator impacts those interactions? I mention this because empathy is an emotion and emotions are impetuses for behaviors and behavioral decisions and processes.

 

From life experience, you can extrapolate your behaviors absent empathy and compare them to those predicated upon the emotion of empathy.

 

Using an example, though I have no way of 'proving' it, my exW revealed early on that she had been a rape victim and the rape resulted in a later abortion and subsequent infertility with her other husbands and myself. Having empathy for rape victims, I behaved differently in our sexual life than I might have otherwise with a woman who didn't identify herself as such. I also approached our infertility differently than I might have otherwise. Empathy colored my processes and behaviors.

 

How has it gone for you?

 

I think the fact that I know she was a victim has allowed me to not say and think all the bad things I might have said or thought if I thought she pursued him or was the aggressor in any way. I knew she was a victim on DDay from all the texts and emails, and I have all of them. So in hindsight I'd say knowing that tempered my response to the affair. That does not mean I forgive it or don't hold her accountable. Just that I can understand more about how the affair evolved. And I guess that empathy allows me to feel a lot of pain for her because I know she feels pain for her actions and choices. I've seen in vivid color how angry she is with herself. Empathy has to go both ways to move forward in a healthy relationship.

[VeryBrokenMan]

His words say so, yet his heart and ego won't truly allow him to believe his words.

 

My point is, why does it matter? It matters to him NOW because its helping him justify staying in the marriage.

 

In the betrayed male ego driven mind, its easier to accept "yeah she did this BUT if it wasn't for...." as I said truth me I know. Long term this does very little good. Her motivation for doing what she did is far more important then anything OM did to bed her. So what he was a predator, he lied to and manipulated her. Making that true doesn't help OP, if om loved her or not it doesn't take away his pain or make the long run over all health of their marriage any better. Circumstances of the affair don't help the marriage. As I'm said, he is trying to justify staying in the marriage (to himself), therefore his words of claiming her accountable aren't honest ones, he is and has blamed himself and OM.

 

Thus shifting blame makes it easier to accept his wife's cheating, and more importantly gives him a factor of her fidelity that he can control. I had about 40 hours of IC on this very subject. Its all about control, his ability to control this from happening again. If its OM fault then getting him gone means she won't do it again, if its his fault it means he can change and she won't do it again. None of this is true, her finding her motivation (that allowed om be be in a position to do these thing), and why she thought it was ok are what controls if she does it again. All of which is totally out of VBM hands

 

There is no blame shifting, it's just an understanding of what really happened.

[Confused48]

Thus shifting blame makes it easier to accept his wife's cheating, and more importantly gives him a factor of her fidelity that he can control. I had about 40 hours of IC on this very subject. Its all about control, his ability to control this from happening again. If its OM fault then getting him gone means she won't do it again, if its his fault it means he can change and she won't do it again. None of this is true, her finding her motivation (that allowed om be be in a position to do these thing), and why she thought it was ok are what controls if she does it again. All of which is totally out of VBM hands

 

What about demonising the OM to WS. If VBM can get WS to see OM as evil then WS will not want to go back to OM. Does nothing to protect her from being tempted by a new OM but at least this one is no longer a concern to VBM.

[VeryBrokenMan]

What about demonising the OM to WS. If VBM can get WS to see OM as evil then WS will not want to go back to OM. Does nothing to protect her from being tempted by a new OM but at least this one is no longer a concern to VBM.

 

She saw the real OM when he got angry and took issue with her about some of the things she wanted to say in the final no contact call we made together. It was so viscous he hung up and called back twice and she was livid that he treated her as he did on that call. He burned down the bridge and town with his actions on that phone call.

 

After that I did not have to demonize him at all but the two page criminal history that I gave her that included a sexual assault told her all she needed to know about the type of man he really is. She won't be even looking in his direction again I know that for a fact.

 

She would have to be one very cold and emotionless person to ever do this again with someone new. Had she been unsympathetic or showed no remorse sure, but I've seen her pain over all this.

[badkarma2013]

posted by DKT3:"The truth is their were countless times during your over 30 years with you wife that men hit on her, countless times where they tried to prey on her, yet she (to the best of your knowledge) remained faithful. As she could have with this guy.

 

It was, at the end of the day her decision to cross the line. She isn't a helpless child who needed someone to hold her hand and walk her away from this guy.

 

I believe in an affair both people play both roles at one time or another. You have to accept that your wife WANTED this, that she was HAPPY with what she was doing and ENJOYED it. You will get there at some point.'

 

 

Abso- damn- lutely....They wanted it to happen..it made them happy..and they DA*N sure enjoyed it...

Hundreds of Om hit on my WW during 22 years of marriage...she never once lost her bearing...Until She Did...

 

I have looked for a harsh, complex reason for MY WWs Affair...I wanted it to be complicated and again Complex.....But another poster (Fellini)...Posted all it takes for an Affair to begin is Attraction and the Opportunity for the Affair to take place....Thats is IT....You would think our WWs would not take the chance of losing Everything...But they did IT....and did it many times... AND WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE REAL TRUTH...

 

VeryBrokenMan..I do not know your wife....but she cannot be much different that most WWs here...

 

She was fed a Fuc&ing Line from a Player and took it hook ..line and sinker...and I think what is soul crushing to most BHs...In the dark recesses of ourselves...we KNOW thew sex was off the chain...and our WWs loved it...that and the LOSS of who we thought our life partner was.....

 

Im sure I was Plan B at some point...Rest assured Im NO ONES Plan B...

 

Thats why she is my EXWW...Badkarma

[VeryBrokenMan]

posted by DKT3:"The truth is their were countless times during your over 30 years with you wife that men hit on her, countless times where they tried to prey on her, yet she (to the best of your knowledge) remained faithful. As she could have with this guy.

 

It was, at the end of the day her decision to cross the line. She isn't a helpless child who needed someone to hold her hand and walk her away from this guy.

 

I believe in an affair both people play both roles at one time or another. You have to accept that your wife WANTED this, that she was HAPPY with what she was doing and ENJOYED it. You will get there at some point.'

 

 

Abso- damn- lutely....They wanted it to happen..it made them happy..and they DA*N sure enjoyed it...

Hundreds of Om hit on my WW during 22 years of marriage...she never once lost her bearing...Until She Did...

 

I have looked for a harsh, complex reason for MY WWs Affair...I wanted it to be complicated and again Complex.....But another poster (Fellini)...Posted all it takes for an Affair to begin is Attraction and the Opportunity for the Affair to take place....Thats is IT....You would think our WWs would not take the chance of losing Everything...But they did IT....and did it many times... AND WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE REAL TRUTH...

 

VeryBrokenMan..I do not know your wife....but she cannot be much different that most WWs here...

 

She was fed a Fuc&ing Line from a Player and took it hook ..line and sinker...and I think what is soul crushing to most BHs...In the dark recesses of ourselves...we KNOW thew sex was off the chain...and our WWs loved it...that and the LOSS of who we thought our life partner was.....

 

Im sure I was Plan B at some point...Rest assured Im NO ONES Plan B...

 

Thats why she is my EXWW...Badkarma

 

 

BK, I respect that was the absolutely right decision for you. I understand that for some BH's that is the only answer. I get that.

 

But why does any of that matter? Did she enjoy it or did she not? Was it 100 times or just twice? Was he aggressive or not? In the end none of that matters to me. The crime was having sex and falling in love(or thinking you were) with someone else. The details don't really matter to me the crime is not really made worse or lessened by any of those things.

[badkarma2013]

Posted by VeryBrokenMan:She would have to be one very cold and emotionless person to ever do this again with someone new. Had she been unsympathetic or showed no remorse sure, but I've seen her pain over all this"

 

 

Brother ...What about YOUR pain....She lied,deceived and betrayed you...and you seem to be caring about her feelings,thoughts..etc..

 

On D-DAY...I could have given a DA^N about her feelings ....unmet needs or any other bullSh*t...she could come up with....

 

I know were are different people and im trying to change from my "Burn down the village and kill everyone in it" mentality ..But ..There is a Line In The sand for each and everyone of us here ...And she "Bloody Well" crossed mine...

 

With all said...Hang tough guy...we are all pulling for you!....Badkarma

[badkarma2013]

BK, I respect that was the absolutely right decision for you. I understand that for some BH's that is the only answer. I get that.

 

But why does any of that matter? Did she enjoy it or did she not? Was it 100 times or just twice? Was he aggressive or not? In the end none of that matters to me. The crime was having sex and falling in love(or thinking you were) with someone else. The details don't really matter to me the crime is not really made worse or lessened by any of those things.

 

Again...you sir are correct...It really doesnt matter....

[VeryBrokenMan]

Posted by VeryBrokenMan:She would have to be one very cold and emotionless person to ever do this again with someone new. Had she been unsympathetic or showed no remorse sure, but I've seen her pain over all this"

 

 

Brother ...What about YOUR pain....She lied,deceived and betrayed you...and you seem to be caring about her feelings,thoughts..etc..

 

On D-DAY...I could have given a DA^N about her feelings ....unmet needs or any other bullSh*t...she could come up with....

 

I know were are different people and im trying to change from my "Burn down the village and kill everyone in it" mentality ..But ..There is a Line In The sand for each and everyone of us here ...And she "Bloody Well" crossed mine...

 

With all said...Hang tough guy...we are all pulling for you!....Badkarma

 

Everyone does have a line that cannot be crossed. Mine was not crossed for whatever reason. I think mine might be breaking NC and I've let her know that. I've also let her know that should there be a next time she will be served with divorce papers the same day. That's not a threat, just the reality of our life now.

 

She has seen my pain, rage and outrage. My IC told me early on I had to let those emotions fly. She told me to let it rip and I did. As they say in football "I left it all on the field" the first 3 months. I had nothing left to say and now that I've dumped all that and said what I needed to say, I can feel her pain. To her credit she took every bit of that pain and put it n herself. She is as devastated as I am. She accepts that she was the one that threw the grenade into our marraige and knows it's all on her. And I can feel her pain and guilt for doing that to us.

 

Thank you BK!

[DKT3]

The change is: NOW she sees the bad in people. She had no clue before this that men could be manipulative and deceptive to get sex. But you need to understand she has not used this predator defense AT ANY TIME. She has NOT ONCE blamed the OM. Him being a predator does not excuse her in the least but it lets me see (with an open mind) what really happened. What you want to believe is that she went looking for it because she was (insert your reason here) and that is simply not the case. I have the proof in the texts, it's not a question of her telling the truth about it. He aggressively went after a naive married women and lied to her about his feelings to get sex. That is a predator.

 

You are totally missing my point. This isn't about the om or your wife. This is about you, about you making yourself feel safe in moving forward. As I said, this is about you, your drive and need to understand is about making yourself feel ok to stay. All I'm getting at is its unhealthy the way your going about it.

 

As far as your wife, well even if she was the prey, what was her end game? Was she intending on leaving you for this other guy? After all naive or not she allowed this to get to the point it did. Maybe she didn't go looking (which is really impossible since she had to engage and continue to do so) she didn't stop it. Beside you said it wasn't until she broke it off that he started to drop the L word. Its very likely that not for this OM their would have been another OM because your wife was open to it.

 

PS, I just re-read that phone call, that isn't a naive woman that made that call. That isn't a woman that was preyed on. That is a woman who sounds to be manipultive herself. One who had no intent on ending her affair.

Edited March 10, 2015 by DKT3

[VeryBrokenMan]

You are totally missing my point. This isn't about the om or your wife. This is about you, about you making yourself feel safe in moving forward. As I said, this is about you, your drive and need to understand is about making yourself feel ok to stay. All I'm getting at is its unhealthy the way your going about it.

 

As far as your wife, well even if she was the prey, what was her end game? Was she intending on leaving you for this other guy? After all naive or not she allowed this to get to the point it did. Maybe she didn't go looking (which is really impossible since she had to engage and continue to do so) she didn't stop it. Beside you said it wasn't until she broke it off that he started to drop the L word. Its very likely that not for this OM their would have been another OM because your wife was open to it.

 

I disagree, it's totally healthy to look at every angle and see the affair for what it really was. My IC has suggest that on many occasions and I've discussed ALL of this with her many times. I'm not to 40 hours on this issue but I've spent a lot of time talking with my IC and she fully approves the path I'm taking.

 

The affair lasted 77 days first contact to DDay. She had no end game, she got caught up in the attention and was infatuated. I have all the texts and emails and there was never any plans for the future of any kind.

 

It's not impossible to not go looking for it but allow it to continue, those are two totally different things. She was open to it because he was so aggressive, you take that out of it and the affair never happens.

 

Somehow she manged to stay faithful for 30 plus years until this guy came along. What she saw in him were (false) words of affirmation. She was feeling like her looks were fading and her body was not as tight as years past. I think these are normal thoughts for a women in her late forties.

 

He gave her attention and compliments and she responded at a time in her life when her self esteem was very low. He did all that to get sex and he did so in an aggressive manner. He's not successful or good looking and a younger WW of mine might not have given him the time of day 10 years ago.

 

Had she run into another predator prior to this would she have strayed? Maybe but I think I can give her the benefit of the doubt because she didn't for 30 years and she is not an unattractive women. I've always seen how heads turn when she walks in some place, that's been my life.

 

At the moment of that phone call she did not know all the things about him that she now knows. She did not see how he strung her along for sex or anything about his criminal history. All she knew at that moment was how good he acted toward her and how good he made her feel. All of those things were false because he was ONLY in it for the sex, he proved that in out last call to him we made together.

Edited March 10, 2015 by VeryBrokenMan

[Mrs. John Adams]

I have been reading all this and trying to process it...and it conjured up an image in my mind.

 

In the jungle....the lion sizes up it's prey....it looks for the weakest and the youngest and the injured. It plans its attack ....and slowly, rhythmically it begins the chase.....

 

but the lion does not win every time...she does not always get the prey...sometimes the prey is smarter or quicker...and it escapes....and when that happens the prey overcomes being the victim.

 

the lion lays down and licks its wounds and then prepares itself to go after the next prey....and this time...she catches it because the prey did something stupid....turned the wrong direction or did not run fast enough...and the lion devours it....for her own enjoyment....she doesn't care that the victim belonged to someone else...she doesn't care that the family of the victim will mourn the loss forever....the loss of innocence..the loss of family...

 

There are certainly predators ....my om was a predator....VBM's wife om was a predator....a person who is out for their own gain, their own satisfaction...never giving thought to steeling someone precious to someone else.

 

Now....i am only a victim if i allow the predator to win...but he is still a predator...

 

I did not seek to have an affair...but i certainly made the choice to allow it to happen. I was naive and stupid....but i know right from wrong...and i knew that what i was doing was wrong. I was not helpless.

 

Mrs. VBM...may have been naive and stupid....but she too knew right from wrong and she made the choice just like i did..to put herself above all others...her wants, her needs, her ego....and gave herself to another man.

 

Predator? yes Victim...by choice