Questions about NC and the nature of love

[SolG]

Just reread the latest thread here with NC tips and have some questions for those of you who have been through the process. I've asked about this before. But now I have some more questions; specifically about love.

 

There is nobody in my life that I onced loved that I still don't love in some way. If someone was important to me in my life at some time, I still hold a piece of them dear.

 

For example, my best friend from high school; we were united against the world and full of youth and dreams and absolutely certain that we'd be best friends forever and our lives inextricably intertwined. Now... We catch up for lunch every couple of years and reflect and laugh and fondly remember. Despite not being close, we still cherish that we were.

 

And the significant men. Most prominent amongst them my xH. We talk and see each other often. We too remember the good times, and the bad. We still care about each other, but also know that that caring is a different thing to what it once was. And that's in general how I feel about my significant xBFs as well.

 

I have never used NC. Ever. For me it has always been a morphing. Not always gentle mind. But a transition form realisation that this relationship in its current form cannot work... To a new form that can. Filing off the edges if you will, so it sits more comfortably within me. And I've never experienced a regression to try and resurrect a relationship, or an ex being a FWB. But then I've never felt about anyone else the way I feel about xMM either...

 

The NC tips I just read seem to focus a lot on getting rid of the love and seeking indifference. I don't want to be indifferent to xMM. That's not my goal at all. He has been a significant part of my life. Just like the others who were important to me, he has given me memories and lessons that (no matter how painfully wrought) I do and will always cherish. I do not want to not love him, I want to love him differently. I want to hold him inside with all the other special people that have helped me become who I am.

 

We will go NC at Easter time so he and I can both focus on moving on separately. We've already has the realisation that our relationship has to change and started that process. NC will be a new experience for me in and of itself, but I intend to use it to consolidate that process. To morph my perception of this from what it was to something else. To not eradicate my feelings, but make them different, at the same time as I make my life different; a life without him as a central piece.

 

Am I too naive in thinking that this transition can be like others? Is it too ambitious to believe that the there is an alternative path where NC is not such a blunt tool? That love in toto does not need to be expunged to move on?

 

I'm interested in your thoughts and experiences.

Edited March 11, 2015 by SolG

[Satu]

Just reread the latest thread here with NC tips and have some questions for those of you who have been through the process. I've asked about this before. But now I have some more questions; specifically about love.

 

There is nobody in my life that I onced loved that I still don't love in some way. If someone was important to me in my life at some time, I still hold a piece of them dear.

 

For example, my best friend from high school; we were united against the world and full of youth and dreams and absolutely certain that we'd be best friends forever and our lives inextricably intertwined. Now... We catch up for lunch every couple of years and reflect and laugh and fondly remember. Despite not being close, we still cherish that we were.

 

And the significant men. Most prominent amongst them my xH. We talk and see each other often. We too remember the good times, and the bad. We still care about each other, but also know that that caring is a different thing to what it once was. And that's in general how I feel about my significant xBFs as well.

 

I have never used NC. Ever. For me it has always been a morphing. Not always gentle mind. But a transition form realisation that this relationship in its current form cannot work... To a new form that can. Filing off the edges if you will, so it sits more comfortably within me. And I've never experienced a regression to try and resurrect a relationship, or an ex being a FWB. But then I've never felt about anyone else the way I feel about xMM either...

 

*The NC tips I just read seem to focus a lot on getting rid of the love and seeking indifference. I don't want to be indifferent to xMM. That's not my goal at all. He has been a significant part of my life. Just like the others who were important to me, he has given me memories and lessons that (no matter how painfully wrought) I do and will always cherish. I do not want to not love him, I want to love him differently. I want to hold him inside with all the other special people that have helped me become who I am.

 

We will go NC at Easter time so he and I can both focus on moving on separately. We've already has the realisation that our relationship has to change and started that process. NC will be a new experience for me in and of itself, but I intend to use it to consolidate that process. To morph my perception of this from what it was to something else. To not eradicate my feelings, but make them different, at the same time as I make my life different; a life without him as a central piece.

 

Am I too naive in thinking that this transition can be like others? Is it too ambitious to believe that the there is an alternative path where NC is not such a blunt tool?

 

I'm interested in your thoughts and experiences.

 

*I don't see it that way at all. I see it as being a tool for healing, in that it allows you to work on yourself without distraction.

[privategal]

Maybe due to the fact that you seem to have had a calm mutual break up...mutual being key.

Affairs are more dramatic or rather intense in their nature, usually all encompassing and powerful. Most often one of the A partners doesn't want it to end and the pain, void, and sadness are overwhelming and there seems no healthier way to heal the wound than to kill first the pain, seal the gash and NC is that for me...a surgical removal of what's causing pain..removing reminders, erasing hope...and greiving.

It sounds like your centered and balanced and are healthy with parting ways. I envy it.

I was/am the complete opposite and am fighting to get myself and my life back without him.

[SolG]

Maybe due to the fact that you seem to have had a calm mutual break up...mutual being key....

It sounds like your centered and balanced and are healthy with parting ways. I envy it.

 

Actually my A was dramatic and all encompassing. The end wasn't mutual at all to start with. xMM called it, not me. I hung on for dear life to the last possible moment.

 

What we did do, however, was completely dissect the A together. And that rational process--we were incredibly emotional during it, but the process itself was rational--led us to the mutual conclusion that there is no possible good outcome for us together. This conclusion killed the hope and dreams. It was incredibly painful to accept that my vision and expectations of my future were now false. That I have to completely rethink and reshape where I'm going in life; without xMM.

 

Once the hope is dead, all that's left is the feelings. And I'm not centred or balanced or healthy. I'm actually in a world of hurt right now! But I don't want to excise the cause. I want to reframe my view of it to lessen the impact, while still acknowledging its importance to me. If that makes sense?

 

Thank you Satu for pointing out your interpretation of NC. I think that will be a far more useful way for me to view it.

Edited March 12, 2015 by SolG

[SleekArchitecture]

I see NC being endured on a case by case basis, individual to a particular relationship. Some may be able to care and love an affair partner unconditionally and others may not feel this way, so NC would feel different depending on the couple, and if their parting involves love, indifference, or anger.

[privategal]

Actually my A was dramatic and all encompassing. The end wasn't mutual at all to start with. xMM called it, not me. I hung on for dear life to the last possible moment.

 

What we did do, however, was completely dissect the A together. And that rational process--we were incredibly emotional during it, but the process itself was rational--led us to the mutual conclusion that there is no possible good outcome for us together. This conclusion killed the hope and dreams. It was incredibly painful to accept that my vision and expectations of my future were now false. That I have to completely rethink and reshape where I'm going in life; without xMM.

 

Once the hope is dead, all that's left is the feelings. And I'm not centred or balanced or healthy. I'm actually in a world of hurt right now! But I don't want to excise the cause. I want to reframe my view of it to lessen the impact, while still acknowledging its importance to me. If that makes sense?

 

Thank you Satu for pointing out your interpretation of NC. I think that will be a far more useful way for me to view it.

 

Thats missing for most of us too...the talk to dissect it and make logical sense of it together with our xap. The bitter or abrupt ending leaves no discussions or a feeling we've reached a conclusion together.

For me its the feelings that hurt the WORST cause Im feeling them alone.

But Im feeling them instead of working around them, denying, and pushing down.

Im really proud of you and your xmm. Im sorry it had to end and terribly sorry for the pain and loss of future dreams.

It's not easy and often doesn't seem fair.

But I believe the way your viewing it can work for you.

It's not as warm for most...its bitter and rage. Rainbow was also able to greive it in somewhat of a positive manner going to the beach and holding a private goodbye type ceremony.

All those things can be lovely and healing but I can't get there. The anger pushes me foreward rather than the old "better to have loved and lost..." Id rather never loved.

I wish you so much peace and strength.

Thank you for allowing me to share my story a bit. xo

[Auspecial]

I tend to agree with you, and I am open to a multitude of ways to end a toxic relationship. The majority of my ex's I am on friendly terms with. Some of them, I had to force myself to do strict NC for my own sense of peace/sanity. Some I was able to let it drift apart by being and feeling less and less available or connected. I tend to be a peace warrior, so that is my preference. There are only two ex boyfriends, and one friend, that I know I will never speak to again, and would not pull them out of the road.

[DKT3]

A normal relationship has a start, the coming together the falling in love, you know the fun exciting part. Then it has a middle, when everything settles into a routine. It can become boring however working towards a common goal it the tie that binds. Then many have an ending, the relationship has run its course. The natural progresssion can often afford you, with time, the chance to maintain some sort of relationship.

 

However in affairs they get stuck in the starting stage because one or both our sharing the other stages with someone else. There is no middle and the ending is usually forced. That is why NC is important. Maintaining a relationship on any level is the cause of pain and suffering for others, not to mention setting the AP's up for more pain due to the fact that the relationship has no future and only creates more turmoil.

 

It isn't a relationship that can be revisited in the future because it will continue to be unhealthy while one or more stays in the primary relationship.

 

Lastly it stunts your emotional well being and affect your ability to form bonds with future partners.

[Satu]

Snip:

 

 

*Once the hope is dead, all that's left is the feelings.

 

 

Feel the feeling.

 

Be with yourself feeling the feeling.

 

Love yourself for being with yourself.

 

Love yourself for being.

[gettingstronger]

Gently- you are romanticizing a relationship that is no good for you-you write beautifully and I am sure the talks were wonderful but in the end, it was not good for you- its over, leave it in the past where it belongs-

 

Good luck and happy healing-

[whichwayisup]

Am I too naive in thinking that this transition can be like others? Is it too ambitious to believe that the there is an alternative path where NC is not such a blunt tool? That love in toto does not need to be expunged to move on?

 

So you are hoping to continue a friendship with (ex)MM? All that does is really prevent you from closing your heart to him, you'll still be investing him in and not willing (your heart won't) to be with someone else. All the meanwhile he'll be continuing an EA with you, lying to his wife about your hidden friendship. A secret and that's not fair.

 

This isn't like a regular ex from your past, affair relationships are not the same at all.

[Lurkeraspect]

Ending a toxic relationship without the benifit of true NC keeps you stuck. Always wanting what can never be, always hoping for something you can never be given.

 

True NC is a gift you give to yourself.

[Popsicle]

I am the opposite in that I am not in touch with any of the men from my past R's, except my children's father, and that is only because we have to be.

[Doublegold]

But what if the relationship involves your family members, as in they have met many times and he has helped mine in too many ways to count? What if you had a love affair that , while it may not end being together and riding off into the sunset, during its many years you two developed a true friendship, shared the most intimate secrets that you never did before? What if he WAS there for you, drove 2 hours each way to see you, spent time together in the real world, introduced you to his friends many times, spent time with yours? Went away together, he forgoing family vactations for the last four years. What if you have no doubt of the love, but realize in life you can't always get what you want--either of us. What if when I am ready to close the door, I worry about him and his well-being because I love him and know his pressures. Is a gradual easing away better then just --this isn't going my way, I shall disappear even though you have been there for me as a friend for eight years? I dont think life is ever black and white, it can be wonderfully colorful and heartbreakingly dark.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Doublegold

[minimariah]

i think the goal of NC is to fall out of love, not to stop loving completely. of course you will always love people you were once close with - but you don't think about those people daily, you don't wish to be with those people daily. you aren't in love with them anymore.

 

are you too naive in thinking that this transition can be like others? i can't really answer that question. maybe you are, maybe you aren't. i (personally) was never able to move on unless there was a period of NC immediately. it's super hard to let go, you always hold on to the hope of you & that person being together and that stops you from moving on with your life & maybe with someone else. to me, NC is not necessary to kill the love but to accept that it's truly over, to let go of those dreams of being with that person & to move on. as long as you talk to that person, as long as you're keeping the connection - that's impossible. i never had an A, so i can't give you answers from that perspective but i think breaking off an A is much harder than breaking off your regular relationship.

 

so i think that, in breaking an A - a NC is absolutely needed.

it's hard being friends or having one relationship with someone you're in love with. and it's even harder seeing that person moving on & working on their own marriage, family. NC helps you focus on YOU & YOUR life, instead of what was and could have been with your xAP.

[jwi71]

I have never used NC. Ever. For me it has always been a morphing. Not always gentle mind. But a transition form realisation that this relationship in its current form cannot work... To a new form that can. Filing off the edges if you will, so it sits more comfortably within me. And I've never experienced a regression to try and resurrect a relationship, or an ex being a FWB.

But then I've never felt about anyone else the way I feel about xMM either...

 

Then why is NC an option for you NOW? What is different here and now that allows you to accept the antithesis of your beliefs and experiences?

I think there you find your answer.

The NC tips I just read seem to focus a lot on getting rid of the love and seeking indifference. I don't want to be indifferent to xMM. That's not my goal at all. He has been a significant part of my life. Just like the others who were important to me, he has given me memories and lessons that (no matter how painfully wrought) I do and will always cherish. I do not want to not love him, I want to love him differently. I want to hold him inside with all the other special people that have helped me become who I am.

 

This seems very much in tune with what you have said....

 

We will go NC at Easter time so he and I can both focus on moving on separately. We've already has the realisation that our relationship has to change and started that process. NC will be a new experience for me in and of itself, but I intend to use it to consolidate that process. To morph my perception of this from what it was to something else. To not eradicate my feelings, but make them different, at the same time as I make my life different; a life without him as a central piece.

 

And then back to the starkness of NC.

Why? Why is NC the path here and now whereas previously it was not?

Am I too naive in thinking that this transition can be like others? Is it too ambitious to believe that the there is an alternative path where NC is not such a blunt tool? That love in toto does not need to be expunged to move on?

 

I think you already know this transition is not like the others -otherwise you wouldn't posting here - you would be following the path you previously walked when ending an R.

 

Instead, you balk on NC and seek, in an eloquent way,how to end it without ending it.

 

I'm interested in your thoughts and experiences.

 

IME, NC is the shortest path out of hurt. No one ever believes it until viewed in hindsight. It is long recommended, and it was long recommended when I first joined, for a reason. You would do well to listen to others who have seen it -or perhaps more poignantly- walked it themselves.

 

NC is the quickest route out. I hope you take it.

[SolG]

Thanks for all your thoughts. I've had more of a think now.

 

There will absolutely be NC as of Easter when he flies home. Why? For xMM, he really needs time to focus on reconnecting with his W and family. He hasn't seen them in six months, and has only been home for four months total (aggregated) in the last two years; our work schedules are crazy like that. Since our A started, he's spent more time with me than his W. Now he's decided to focus on his M, he has repair work to do.

 

For me, I know I need NC to heal and move on. I've never been the world's most social animal, and during the A xMM pretty much filled all that space. I've started the process of reconnecting more with family and friends, and meeting new people; with xMM's support which has been helpful. Also reinvigorating some personal and professional goals. NC will give me the space to move those things along by myself, for myself. I don't see this as being difficult. Keeping busy and finding company is easy.

 

The difficult bit is going to be the emotional distancing. For both of us. xMM is adamant that we can go back to being friends. I'd like to think so too... But I'm not as confident. We are planning to meet in the middle of the year on his birthday for a check-in. I'm reserving my judgement on that until I see what the NC is like and what kind of progress I make.

 

He has the advantage of having his W to reconnect with romantically; so the way I see it his distancing from me should be 'relatively' easyish. (He begs to differ, but I think that the fact that he does love her and has chosen this path, with comittment and effort he'll get there. His W has never given up trying this whole time; she'll be very receptive.)

 

And I don't have anyone to transfer to in that way, and nor do I want anyone mind! (I'm so relationship unfit! If relationships were roads and I a vehicle... I'd be classified unroadworthy and parked in the garage indefinitely.) My romantic feelings are going to be all flapping around unfocused in the breeze.

 

And the big thing I see about this from a R perspective for me is that it is the first one I've ever had that I didn't want to end. I've never had that hope of rekindling a R that's stopped me from moving on. It's always been--not without pain, but-- relief! Moving on now... I see that as a far more significant factor here in favour of NC than the fact that this R was an A. My logic has moved on, but my emotions haven't yet. And NC will allow me the space for the emotions to catch up. I finally get what it's all about!

 

Execution doesn't sound difficult. Don't contact each other... Simple. And I know we won't. It's the constructive utilisation of the space to make the emotional transition that I'm still getting my head around; as well as what exactly I want that emotion to become. Got to take all that flappy in the breeze stuff and..?

 

And, in all this thinking I keep forgetting that the act of going NC is going to hurt like hell!

 

Anyway, just a ramble really. Still absorbing and thinking...

[minimariah]

The difficult bit is going to be the emotional distancing. For both of us. xMM is adamant that we can go back to being friends.

 

i don't think that will be possible.

 

you're in love, both of you. & you didn't want this relationship to end, there was no natural death for you two as a couple and that means that the hope is always there... in some small corner, hidden and buried somewhere in your heart.

 

go NC after Easter and see how that goes.

i don't know what else to say... you seem like such a lovely person and i get the feeling that all 3 of you (you, MM & his W) are good people but... it is what it is, i guess? the time just wasn't right.

 

i wish you the best, follow your heart. listen to your heart and if you feel like things are becoming too overwhelming - you know what to do, go full NC. until then follow your plan.

 

& yes, NC hurts. sooooo, so much. i remember when i was going through my share of NCs and i felt literal chest pain. i felt like my heart was splitting in two. but you know what? human heart is a strong machine & you wouldn't believe how much it can take... you will survive and things will get better. you'll go through your hell put it does get better - keep that in mind.

[SleekArchitecture]

It seems and I may be completely off course that you are comfortable in knowing this man, affair, NC or not is there a comfort zone, that is preventing you from the unknown possible failures of normal relationships.

 

It is already defined and carved in stone, but going out and wearing your heart on your sleeve opens you up and makes you vulnerable to unknown success or failures.

 

A safety net? It is less scary and you are less vulnerable when you know the beginning and end. Then you add hope and hope being a deceptive devil, enables you to withstand the long periods of being alone.

[SolG]

Mini, Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I do believe that we all three are good people. However, xMM and I have done some pretty awful things in the course of this A I know NC is going to be a bitch. Thanks for the support.

 

Have been reflecting some more. I know that many say given the opportunity they would undo what they have done. I think I've thought that myself. But I don't think that anymore. I'd do it all again because this A has taught me so much that I would not otherwise have learnt.

 

Which brings me to your points SleekArchitecture. You are correct to a certain extent. I do think the outcome for me is pretty much carved in stone. xMM is my first real love, and I didn't find him until mid-life. Just the pure pragmatic odds of that ever happening again are slim. I'm not completely closed to the possibilty--especially now I know it can happen--but I'm not going to go looking for it either. Being single doesn't equal being alone or lonely unless you choose to believe that it does!

 

Now about vulnerability... Before the affair with xMM, I didn't engage in relationships because I didn't really think that love in the high romantic sense was 'real'. Now post-A, I do believe in it but don't think it will happen again. How does this tie into vulnerability? I'll try to explain.

 

This thread is not just about NC, but also about the nature of love. So here goes...

 

In the last couple of years I've read everything I can get my hands on about As, Rs and Ms. Glass, Brown, Chapman, Gottman, Schnarch, Perel, Tennov... a truckload of MC, sex therapy and behavioural science textbooks... all trying to get my head around what was happening. (I even bought two copies of some--like Glass--so xMM could read them as well :-/) The complete lack of logic to what we were doing has been infuriating at times for me wth my type of analytical brain. Sometimes the frustration has been understanding, but then not being able to make myself do anything about it. But now that I'm nearing the end, there are a whole stack of things that are starting to fall into place for me.

 

One of those things is my understanding of the nature of love for/to me. I think all the talk of soul mates, becoming one and meant to be is clap trap. I don't believe that there is any such thing as unconditional or selfless love in a romantic R; and nor should there be. We should all have the necesssary pride and sense of values to demand that certain conditions be met, and we should never lose our sense of self for anyone else.

 

I strongly believe that Schnarch in particular is right; the closer we really are, the more evident that we are separtate. That a union is a choice that two individuals make to be together despite knowing this fact. And real love is the courage to fully acknowledge and know each other; the courage to show oneself, and fully see one another, to the core. Love is not about being nice or mutual validation loops; that way lay the building of facades due to the supression of anything about you that you fear may upset the other. It's about being all you are as individuals--darkness and light--together. And this is frightening in the face of the realisation that love is conditional, because it means that every revelation about yourself carries the risk of rejection. But because you love and know this requires real intimacy to achieve/maintain, you feel that fear and do it anyway.

 

This is where I think some WSs arrive from. They for some reason cannot share all facets of themselves with their H/Ws. They fall into the pattern of their assigned facade not sharing their growing/changing selves. Because they ultimately fear rejection if they show themselves for who they truly have become.

 

For instance the conservative SAHM who in conjunction with her H in their early days of M consigned herself the role of Madonna. She believes this is who she is, and must be to maintain her place in her H's heart. She has babies, who become children and she looks after them and her H well; maybe she even rebuffs her H's advances for more adventurous sex because it is not congruent with self perception of what she must be to be loved. But then she grows, becomes more than that. She becomes aware of her sexuality; becomes aware that she is not just the Madonna. She has within her also a whore. And she's desperately afraid of what she's feeling. She's afraid to show her H because she fears what he will think.

 

In a moment of weakness she signs up at AM and soon finds herself in an A and letting loose the whore she couldn't bring herself to reveal at home. Her now BH husband finds out and is shattered; he can't understand. And the WW doesn't know herself well enough to explain that she had her A not because she didn't love him, but because he was so important to her that she was too afraid to risk his rejection by revealing all of herself. The tragedy is that in acting out of fear of rejection, she has ensured that that rejection comes about.

 

I think that to a certain extent this is where my xMM is. There is so much of him his W does not and may never know, because their roles and facades are so strong and have been reinforced over so much time. I believe he sought me out because he had long since outgrown his assigned role but could not bring himself to break out of it at home (because he feared rejection if he did) and was suffering under the constraint. He wanted to be 'more' himself and chose me as the outlet. So now add to that this whole A and what that shows he is capable of.... layer upon layer of what may be the ultimate deception... failure to reveal who you really are to one you profess to love.

 

He's in the same double bind now as the SAHM I described; revealling himself now may guarantee the rejection he has feared all along. (Not in the sense that he would be kicked out--that is highly improbable--but in the sense that his W would be so gravely hurt, disappointed and damaged that the family unit would suffer as would her perception of him. He finds contemplating this intolerable.) So he will not share. He is going to go back and reassume the facade that his W has been asking him to take back up; and in doin so he believes he will make her happy again. And I think he probably will.

 

Back to vulnerablity... xMM and I have shared everything about one another, with one another. Some may say too much--more than we had a right to--in the context of an A. Or maybe we did so because it was an A. Regardless, we've seen everything from the brightest heights to the darkest recesses of one another that noone else has seen. The reveal has not always been comfortable or pleasant, but that has made it all the more worthwhile. When you acknowledge another's separateness, allow them to be all that they are, and show yourself in return. When you give each other, and find within yourself that courage... it is still a gravely scary thing. Because every layer stripped back makes you more and more intimate. More and more in love. More and more vulnerable to hurt. More and more aware that this thing that we have is a choice. More and more aware that choices can change.

 

Anyway, that's a very rambly and circuitous way for me to get to my point. Sorry! But I've benefitted from writing that out.

 

My point is that this is what true love is to me; truly knowing and being known. The conscious choice of two individuals that know one another (good and bad) to be together, and the courage required in the face of the vulnerabilty such intimacy entails. I won't accept anything less in the future. And I can't at this point imagine meeting another that I could be this intimate with. And even if a miracle happened and I did... I'm not sure I could allow myself to be this vulnerable again. Because that vulnerability would expose me to the risk of this type of hurt again. I just don't know if I could do that.

 

So I'll go through NC, and get over xMM and this A... I'll continue to reflect in that space. And in the process I'll hopefully learn a lot more.

[minimariah]

One of those things is my understanding of the nature of love for/to me. I think all the talk of soul mates, becoming one and meant to be is clap trap. I don't believe that there is any such thing as unconditional or selfless love in a romantic R; and nor should there be. We should all have the necesssary pride and sense of values to demand that certain conditions be met, and we should never lose our sense of self for anyone else.

 

these are my thoughts, too. the only uncoditional love that i acknowledge is the love between a child & a parent. that's it.

 

He is going to go back and reassume the facade that his W has been asking him to take back up; and in doin so he believes he will make her happy again. And I think he probably will.

 

there is a catch - i think he won't be happy & i think that will ultimately make his W unhappy, too. sure, he might continue to be happy just because he has you & the A to hold dear to his heart, to remember. it's like - he would be at peace because he knew he had that type of fulfilling and all revealing relationship where he could bare it all. knowing this, remembering this might make it easier for him to settle for something that made him unhappy in the 1st place.

 

of course - this might cause another wave of unhapiness for him and lead to having an another A. the truth is, i don't think he will be happy in the long run... and neither will his W.

 

Back to vulnerablity... xMM and I have shared everything about one another, with one another. Some may say too much--more than we had a right to--in the context of an A. Or maybe we did so because it was an A.

 

i wonder about this - would you be so intimate with him if he was single? it's like... i feel like it's easier for people to bare it all in an A than it is in a regular relationship. not sure why.

 

Anyway, that's a very rambly and circuitous way for me to get to my point. Sorry! But I've benefitted from writing that out.

 

My point is that this is what true love is to me; truly knowing and being known.

 

i agree with this.

 

i often say that people get married way too young and by way too young i mean everything younger than 35. of course, no one will wait THAT long & people usually settle for the 1st best thing so marriages like that often fail when the person is 20 years older. i don't think people know themselves when they're younger than 30... now, i know that age =/= maturity, i get that. you can be 40 and as clueless as an 18 year old BUT most of the time? people don't get to know themselves until they're at least 30. and i think this is one of the main reasons why so many young marriages fail. that + people not knowing how to grow together.

 

i often wonder at what point does someone's marriage starts to fail. for example, your xMM. did he really ever had a chance with his W? i read some of your previous posts and i got the feeling that his W is somewhat conservative so it was probably hard for him to even start the "i've changed" talk... but at what point do people begin to grow apart?

 

relationships are a choice, indeed. but i think you can bare it all only with the right person, not with everyone. there has to be some connection, chemistry... something that cannot be explained or created no matter how much you let the other person in. my point is - not even baring it all and knowing each other is a guarantee that the love is there or that it will last.

[SolG]

there is a catch - i think he won't be happy & i think that will ultimately make his W unhappy, too. sure, he might continue to be happy just because he has you & the A to hold dear to his heart, to remember. it's like - he would be at peace because he knew he had that type of fulfilling and all revealing relationship where he could bare it all. knowing this, remembering this might make it easier for him to settle for something that made him unhappy in the 1st place.

 

of course - this might cause another wave of unhapiness for him and lead to having an another A. the truth is, i don't think he will be happy in the long run... and neither will his W.

 

I think they will be happy enough. For his W, this will be a reversion to the only happiness she has known; she knows no different and will be relieved to re-establish the comfort and familiar patterns that were. For xMM... I think now he better appreciates what he has at home. That while he may crave more; it just isn't worth it to him in the end to risk what he has with his W and family. As you say, he knows what it's like to experience a more vulnerable and fuller type of love. But in the end to him, now he knows it, he knows that in and of itself it isn't enough.

 

I think we OW fall for the oft-promoted illusion that great love will mean that someone will do ANYTHING to preserve it. We make the mistake of believing ourselves Helen and that our MMs will launch a thousand ships because of what we have. But the reality is that launching those thousand ships starts a war with all the attendant fallout, and that mostimes for a MM peace (especially if he still loves his BS) is the preferred outcome.

 

It does not mean that they do not love us. It also does not mean that they have retreated to an unhappy place; on the contrary, it usually means that they have retreated to the place that they know in the long run is most likely to make them happiest of all the options that they have.

 

Love does not conquer all.

 

i wonder about this - would you be so intimate with him if he was single? it's like... i feel like it's easier for people to bare it all in an A than it is in a regular relationship. not sure why.

 

I think that an A does for some promote greater intimacy. When you have a long term spouse, there is history and inextricable ties that would be at risk if you bear all. In contrast, an AP is new and there is not the baggage, and rejection therefore carries less risk. This can make you more willing to share and bear all... because there is less to lose.

 

Same with a 'normal' new relationship for the other; they would put their best foot forward, fearful of rejection if they didn't. Conversly, the illicitness, and in the beginning sense of this being something most likely transitory, promotes the same accelerated sharing in an A.

 

So given the right opportunity, and time and space... and add limerence and secrecy... intimacy can grow at a faster pace than would normally be the case in a 'normal' R. However, the proof as to whether this is 'real' intimacy or not is in what happens when the limerence wears off and the APs begin to see each other as they truly are. I'm not sure that many As actually make it to this phase.

 

It almost seems counterintuitive... but it is what it is.

 

i often say that people get married way too young and by way too young i mean everything younger than 35. of course, no one will wait THAT long & people usually settle for the 1st best thing so marriages like that often fail when the person is 20 years older. i don't think people know themselves when they're younger than 30... now, i know that age =/= maturity, i get that. you can be 40 and as clueless as an 18 year old BUT most of the time? people don't get to know themselves until they're at least 30. and i think this is one of the main reasons why so many young marriages fail. that + people not knowing how to grow together.

 

i often wonder at what point does someone's marriage starts to fail. for example, your xMM. did he really ever had a chance with his W? i read some of your previous posts and i got the feeling that his W is somewhat conservative so it was probably hard for him to even start the "i've changed" talk... but at what point do people begin to grow apart?

 

relationships are a choice, indeed. but i think you can bare it all only with the right person, not with everyone. there has to be some connection, chemistry... something that cannot be explained or created no matter how much you let the other person in. my point is - not even baring it all and knowing each other is a guarantee that the love is there or that it will last.

 

The stats are quite telling. The younger you are when you marry, and the less relationship experience you have, the more likely the M is to fail.

 

And yes, this is in part because you don't yet know who you are at a young age. But in the larger part it is because you haven't even become that person yet! As Buffy would put it, you're still cookie dough. It's hard enough to know someone who is themselves, but harder yet when they haven't even started the journey.

 

And that journey never stops. And as such, nor should the relationship. It should not be surprising to be forever learning who you and your partner truly are. And yet surprised by it so many of us inevitably are.

Edited March 15, 2015 by SolG

[SolG]

i often wonder at what point does someone's marriage starts to fail. for example, your xMM. did he really ever had a chance with his W? i read some of your previous posts and i got the feeling that his W is somewhat conservative so it was probably hard for him to even start the "i've changed" talk... but at what point do people begin to grow apart?

 

relationships are a choice, indeed. but i think you can bare it all only with the right person, not with everyone. there has to be some connection, chemistry... something that cannot be explained or created no matter how much you let the other person in. my point is - not even baring it all and knowing each other is a guarantee that the love is there or that it will last.

 

Sorry mini, didn't really address this bit and it is worthy of it.

 

For xMM and his W... Yes, his W is very conservative. And no there was never really the chance for her to know xMM. That is of his doing. He very early on accorded her the role of effectively child to be nurtured and protected; not role of equal partner in his life. And to be fair to him it is a role that she has appeared to promote and prefer; she has been complicit. He does not believe that she could withstand knowing who he really is; and now that he's had an A, I think he's right.

 

That is not to say she does not know him at all. Rather, she is only privy to the bits of himself he chooses to share in that context. He is not presenting a false image, just an incomplete one. I wonder sometimes if this may also be true of his W. xMM does not believe so, but I wonder if he underestimates her entirely. Who knows...

 

He has also tried to repeat this pattern at times with me. Withholding information and facts 'for my own good', so 'I don't get hurt'. These are habits of a lifetime.

 

I agree that the choice to truly know and be known takes a certain connection. And also that it is no guarantee of love in the end. Because it comes back to that eternal fact of conditional choice; every time you reveal something you run the risk of it being the thing that just might break the camel's back. It might just be the thing that your lover cannot accept; that thing that in the end is such an assault on their conditions and values that they have to leave you. What you reveal just might make them love you less.

 

Love truly is the greatest risk, with the greatest potential for return. But still the greatest risk none-the-less.

Edited March 15, 2015 by SolG

[jwi71]

 

Which brings me to your points SleekArchitecture. You are correct to a certain extent. I do think the outcome for me is pretty much carved in stone. xMM is my first real love, and I didn't find him until mid-life. Just the pure pragmatic odds of that ever happening again are slim. I'm not completely closed to the possibilty--especially now I know it can happen--but I'm not going to go looking for it either.

 

Patently untrue.

 

Love is a choice. A decision. Consciously made and in small steps. Agree to go to coffee. Choose to answer superficial yet slightly probing questions. Choose a second date. Choose to share a little of yourself. Choose to hear some of him. Choose the first kiss. Choose the feeling.

If you want to be in love again - choose to be in love again.

 

Love is not a destination or a treasure waiting to be found. It's a series of choices, decisions and brave "firsts" which cumulate in love. If what you want is to be in love and to be loved - then start choosing it (when you are healed).

 

Do NOT believe it wont happen again as that is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

Just my thoughts.

[SolG]

Patently untrue.

 

Love is a choice. A decision. Consciously made and in small steps. Agree to go to coffee. Choose to answer superficial yet slightly probing questions. Choose a second date. Choose to share a little of yourself. Choose to hear some of him. Choose the first kiss. Choose the feeling.

If you want to be in love again - choose to be in love again.

 

Love is not a destination or a treasure waiting to be found. It's a series of choices, decisions and brave "firsts" which cumulate in love. If what you want is to be in love and to be loved - then start choosing it (when you are healed).

 

Do NOT believe it wont happen again as that is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Everything after coffee (I like coffee :-) Just makes me feel... Oh the effort! I just don't have tbe energy, and frankly nor does it sound Iike a way I even want to spend my time. Kind of as appealing as root canal therapy right now.

 

Yes, being loved and in love was amazing. And I know I'm exhausted right now and that is affecting my perception right now. But I actually don't see it as the worst thing in the world to not ever experience that again. I've been happily single and don't see why I can't be again.

 

Why does everyone seem to have this preoccupation with focussing on having a life partner at all costs? If it happens it happens... if it doesn't it doesn't. It's not like it's going to kill you :-/

 

I think NC would be (will be) a good place to just forget all that malarkey completely and just focus on self.