How many believe that teaching of "till death do us part" is wrong?

[hawkeye_pierce]

My position here is that if someone is mistreating you or not living up to their end of bargain and they are not willing to try to meet half way on good faith, the way people need to "work things out" is by moving on and leaving them behind.

 

 

Cold and brutal I know, but that's how I see it now that I look at the world now that I've surpassed the half century mark.

 

I'm about 10 years behind you in age and am learning this, unfortunately, the hard way. I want it to work and I'm putting forth a TON of effort to show appreciation. Unfortunately, I'm seeing things now that were there all along in my SO that I didn't see when we were dating and before we had kids. You know, rose colored glasses and all.

 

We're in counseling right now and I so badly want it to work but I'm the only one trying/putting forth any effort. I'm not really in a bad place mentally. I know the odds are against us because of some things she's not willing to address. More than anything, I'm sad for our kids. I love them to death and they are what will get me through whatever happens. I've told my SO that if things end with us, that will be the end of any "friendly" relationship we have. I told her that I don't want to imagine a world where I don't get to see my kids every day and that if I have to live it, it's not something that I'd ever forgive her for. That's not to say that we couldn't co-parent well, because I think we could, but we'd never speak about anything but the kids again and I told her as much.

 

Guess I really went off on a tangent there. I have a lot of love to give. If my SO doesn't want it, you can bet your sweet ass that I'm going to find someone that wants it. Life is too short to be miserable.

[hawkeye_pierce]

I barely believe in marriage anymore.

 

If I end up divorced, I doubt I'll get married again. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with someone, but divorce will put a bitter taste in my mouth regarding getting married again.

[Michelle ma Belle]

If I end up divorced, I doubt I'll get married again. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with someone, but divorce will put a bitter taste in my mouth regarding getting married again.

 

Agreed.

 

I am all about monogamy and commitment with the right person. I just no longer believe a piece a paper and vows are necessary. I also don't think they hold value anymore either.

 

Love is love.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Michelle ma Belle

[WhiteWingedDove]

I think I entirely get where you are coming from, Oldshirt. I know for certain I agree with your conclusion!

 

I am not a subscriber to any of the religions that hold marriage sacred, and I do not want to offend anyone here who is (btw it isn't that I don't hold marriage sacred, just, my definition of sacred is probably different than usually implied ) so I will keep my comments to this loaded topic brief,

 

As I see it, we have a very old set of ideals for marriage from a time that no longer exists in modern society, with people who live much much longer (on average) than used to, in an entirely different social structure (ie women can work!) than we used to have. To me, the fundamental precepts of marriage are way overdue for a reframing... society has changed hugely and our expectations have not caught up.

 

And I'm a gonna leave it at that.

[redtail]

If I end up divorced, I doubt I'll get married again.

I was the same way, there's a thought that getting a divorce is such a failure that why would you want to go through that again. I think most people feel their first marriage is fairy tale quality and when that bubble bursts, its a bitter pill to swallow.

 

However, having been divorced and on my own, my trust in my decision making has been restored. My current (2nd) marriage was made with my eyes wide open, and was not glossed over by pretense or fantasies but rather with love mixed with a healthy attitude towards reality.

[Clockwork]

I think it is a good teaching. Even more the reason to NOT take marriage lightly and make sure you know what you are walking into. We live in a society with a lot of impatience. Drive thrus, texting, high speed internet, etc. We want things fixed right away. And if not, we move on. That's not right, so give me the "death do us part" scenario anyday of the week.

 

 

I do realize that there are plenty of people who have taken marriage and made a mockery of it. Unfortunately the likes of: Larry King, Elizabeth Taylor, Tiger Woods, Bill Clinton, Kim Kardashian, etc. have given people the impression that marriage is not something you cherish. So it is no wonder people are skeptical out there, but they shouldn't be.

[hawkeye_pierce]

We want things fixed right away.

 

This is the problem I'm having with my wife. I want to fix things. I've worked my ass off (literally) to get healthy so that we can have a better future. She's finally started to do the same but as far as our relationship goes, it seems like she wants it fixed right now or nothing. I keep telling her it doesn't work like that and to just focus on today. Keep building on that. Keep communicating, working through issues and you'll start having more and more good days which become the foundation for a better relationship.

[SolG]

I'm with Michelle on this one; been there, done that with marriage and never intend to go there again.

 

I think romanticism is probably more to blame than religion in this respect. The widely held view that true love is just meant to be, that we will live happily ever after, love will conquer all... leads to the unfounded assumption that forever and 'til death do us part' is a hands down no effort fait accompli to the limerent affianced.

 

However, my philosophical take on it is that 'til death do us part' is not a terrible aspirational stance to take. As long as you understand it is an aspiration, as opposed to an absolute.

 

To quote James Allen, 'To desire is to obtain; to aspire is to achieve'.

 

Aspiration is the understanding that something takes work to truly achieve; and that also in the end it may be unachievable. I read somewhere recently (wish I could remember where) that nobody is really ever ready for marriage, it's being married that makes you ready for marriage. It needs to be recognised that marriage (or any relationship really) is a system that will inevitably change and grow, as will the participants within it over time. And this should be consciously done.

 

I agree with what you're saying that a blind acceptance of ''til death do us part' may indeed contribute to people accepting or staying in less than optimal marriages. But I would add that it would be healthier to go in with a clear view of what is optimum as a goal to begin with, and hone and reshape that goal over time. And yes, boundaries are a part of that. But from this perspective they are viewed through a sharply focussed vision of what I want from you and me and us, as opposed to from the reactive sense of outrage when crossed without first being defined.

 

I guess the trick would be getting those contemplating marriage to take their rose coloured glasses off long enough to understand this.

[MJJean]

Let me clarify my position a little bit so you know where I am coming from.

 

 

I think it is wrong for people, institutions and organizations to dogmatically teach people that marriage is "for better or for worse" and "till death do us part" without teaching them what the realistic exemptions and disqualifyers and exceptions are.

 

 

And my main point is that to say, "...there are no exceptions.." is simply wrong, irresponsible and reckless.

 

 

I am not promoting that divorce should be frivolous or without just cause. I am simply saying that there is a list of very legitimate and reasonable just causes and people should be able to divorce if those just causes occur without judgement, discrimination of contempt should they need to invoke that right.

 

 

I think that parents, extended families, religious and community organizations need to drop the dogmatic teachings and preachings that a marriage must be endured and maintained despite how bad the "...for worse" is.

 

I agree. While I think every effort should be made to save a marriage, if there is abuse, severe neglect, abandonment, etc. divorce should be seriously considered.

 

I married at 19 because I got pregnant and did the right thing". He was irresponsible to the point of possible mental illness, abusive, a thief, etc. I divorced him.

 

I have been married to my DH for 12 years, together 15. There is no abuse or irresponsibility or anything of the sort. We've had some "for worse", but nothing I think justifies divorce and he says he shares that opinion, so we work it out.

 

*Disclaimer* We're catholic, him since childhood and me converting. We don't believe in divorce except in certain circumstances.

 

I don't see this teaching in a practical form in my life. Even some Catholic friends have been granted official annulment of marriage after years of marriage to be able to marry in a Catholic church again. No one is denied divorce that I can see.

 

People should look less to others for validation and approval.

 

Just to correct some misinformation, catholic Church Decree of Nullity (annulment) is not equivalent to divorce.

 

An Annulment through the Church states that a valid marriage never took place. It means that one or both spouses either did not intend to or was not capable due to psychological illness of marriage as taught by the Church and therefore a marital bond was never formed. Thus, the couple who attempted marriage was never married and are free to marry in the Church.

 

Basically, the Church recognizes that a civil marriage existed and that a relationship existed, but that a religious/spiritual marriage did not because of some defect of marital consent (not understanding or believing what one was consenting to) or ability to uphold the vows due to psychological immaturity or mental illness (impairment and addictions fall under this category).

 

As far as the teachings on divorce, even the Church is clear that divorce is acceptable to escape abuse (financial, emotional, physical) and to protect the spouse and/or the children.

[fishstar]

I think a dogmatic assertion that marriage must be for life without exception is wrong, irresponsible and dumb; Anyone else think that it is time to lay the concept of dogmatic adherence to "death do us part" to rest?

 

Yes, I agree that this is a dogmatic assertion which should be laid to rest. Some people, especially very religious, really believe in it even though they are living in separate houses, unhappy, lonely. I know someone who has been separated for 8 years and appears to not want to move on because 'the Bible says I have to be married to her til the day I die'. He actually said this to me the other day and I was surprised! He even said the Bible will allow a wife to leave the husband for as long as she wants, but that doesn't mean he stops being married to her and she will be his wife until she or he dies

 

Believing in that concept too strongly can actually prevent one from making more practical choices.

[Clockwork]

This is the problem I'm having with my wife. I want to fix things. I've worked my ass off (literally) to get healthy so that we can have a better future. She's finally started to do the same but as far as our relationship goes, it seems like she wants it fixed right now or nothing. I keep telling her it doesn't work like that and to just focus on today. Keep building on that. Keep communicating, working through issues and you'll start having more and more good days which become the foundation for a better relationship.

 

I agree.

 

 

Hey, buy the way, to the ones who don't believe in that whole "till death do us part" thing, how is that working out for you? Or our society? Maybe a little commitment and elbow grease within a marriage wouldn't be so bad would it? Unless you prefer the broken family.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Prior to reading many of the stories here I would have said marriage should be that way however I see now there are evil self involved people that should not be married and the other spouse should run the other way when they see the extent of that evil.

[Arieswoman]

Oldshirt,

Marriage vows, in the form "To have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part", have been recited at UK church weddings since 1552.

 

The problem is that in those times life-expectancy was short. In 1552 it was average age 35/40 for men and less for women, as many died in childbirth from a plethera of "complications". About 1.5% of women died in childbirth in the16th century.

 

So, the chances were that "until death us do part" wasn't going to be for that long. A man might have up to 4 wives in his lifetime due to being widowed on a regular basis.

 

Anyone with an interest in these matters can take a walk around an old English churchyard and look at the epitaphs of those buried there and their ages at death.

 

Now with the advances in modern medicine we had a life expectancy in 2012 in UK of 81.50 and in USA of 78.74. So if people get married in their twenties they could still be married in their 80's which raises a whole new set of challenges for the couples concerned.

 

Here's some figures from UK: http://www.relate.org.uk/files/relate/separation-divorce-factsheet-jan2014.pdf

 

To respond to your original question, no, I don't think that those words should be struck from the marriage ceremony.

However, I think there should be more pre-marital counselling available to those couples considering marriage, so they understand the seriousness of the commitment they are undertaking, should they choose to do so.

[redtail]

To respond to your original question, no, I don't think that those words should be struck from the marriage ceremony.

However, I think there should be more pre-marital counselling available to those couples considering marriage, so they understand the seriousness of the commitment they are undertaking, should they choose to do so.

 

While I agree in theory, I think counseling may only take divorce down by a percentage or two. I had counseling with my first wife. And I'm glad I'm no longer living the mistake made by a 20 year old (me). Nor should anyone else.

[autumnnight]

I agree.

 

 

Hey, buy the way, to the ones who don't believe in that whole "till death do us part" thing, how is that working out for you? Or our society? Maybe a little commitment and elbow grease within a marriage wouldn't be so bad would it? Unless you prefer the broken family.

 

Yes, by all means, those who are being cheated on and beaten should just suck it up for the good of society. SMH

[scatterd]

We should be taught how to stay married and work at it.People give up easy and marriage is not just roses. If the rules and vows was followed though and we loved, honored, cherished and kept our self's only unto each other most likely we could be happy.The world is getting where no one respects other peoples marriages let alone their own.Now days Work is for cheating,and along with that comes lies, not enough money ,screaming and fighting no respect and so on then it leads to the big D. We are the ones ruining marriage by not treating each other good and not working on our marriages. God wants us to be happy and wants us to treat each other well,he gives us free will and tests us everyday.Its hard work to be what he wants us to be we are sinners and being perfect is hard.

[sexitif]

There is no till death do us part! more a case of till I tire of you.

[redtail]

There is no till death do us part! more a case of till I tire of you cheating.

 

Fixed that, just sayin...

[autumnnight]

The deluded and self-righteous have no clue what it is like to be betrayed. That's like telling a cancer patient not to take chemo when you've never had cancer.

[Clockwork]

Yes, by all means, those who are being cheated on and beaten should just suck it up for the good of society. SMH

 

Not them. Those are pretty good reasons for divorce. I am talking about the ones that mail it in.

[autumnnight]

Not them. Those are pretty good reasons for divorce. I am talking about the ones that mail it in.

 

Oh I agree about that. Some people seem to believe, "as l9ng as we both find it easy."