It never ends

[Glarner]

Drifter,

 

 

I can feel the pain and frustration you are living with. I am 20 years out from my WW’s two brief affairs. I wish that I had words of wisdom to point you in a good direction, but after living with the particulars of an incomplete but evolving R all I find that I can offer are a few thoughts based upon my own particular experiences. I hope some are useful for you.

 

 

As in your situation, my W was not so interested in helpingthe healing process – especially at the beginning. She did not want to talk about it. I don’t think it was just one thing that drove that – entitlement, fear, shame, and so on. I only insisted to a point (less so than I would have liked with my hindsight). We went along for almost 20 more years and actually had a good marriage and a good life, filled with love, adventure, and family. I convinced myself that what had happened was not so important and I could put it behind me. Unfortunately I now realize how wrong that was and that I was not being honest with myself. Over the next years there were feelings of deep sadness inside that would reach up and grab me occasionally as well as a lack of deep intimacy between us that I could not seem to get past.

 

 

A few years ago doubts and feelings of growing disconnection began to nibble at me more strongly. Many of the feelings you describe yourself going through sound so familiar. It reached a point where I sat my W down andtold her that I finally realized that I needed to deal with this. Like you, I do not think I “held it over her head” (or mine for that matter) for 20 years – or that I should already be “over it”. Rather, it was like starting out right after the affairs (x10 given the baggage that comes with rugsweeping). It has been a painful few years, but also one where the two of us have felt closer together than ever before at times. She was terribly resistant at first but over the last 2 years especially is starting to truly “get it” (emphasis still on “starting”).

 

 

Most people on these discussion boards do not understand why I would (or she would for that matter) put up with this situation for so long. For me, she is worth it; we are worth it. And you have your own reasons for why it is "worth it" (though many posters here bring up good points to ponder in that arena). I honestly have asked that question (worth it?) many times in the last few years and always come back with the same answer (so far). We have had a good, rich life. I wish it were not marred by infidelity, but itis a burden worth carrying still IMO. And she is beginning to understand how to help me carry that.

 

 

Our story is ours. Yours will of course be different. Your W may never “get it”. But it is not impossible that things could improve in that department. My wife woke up (to a degree) after 17 years. Mrs. JA took even longer. Who knows? Of course I’m not advocating waiting for something you never know might happen. You have to live your life the best you can. But as your feelings grow in urgency I’d suggest not hesitating in continuing to talk with your wife about your needs in a loving way (where emotions allow). My wife was indeed afraid to talk about this (as MuddyFootprints suggested) and getting past that fear (as well as other reasons) took time and small, gentle steps.

 

 

The question of “why” consumed me for so much time. After so many different “whys”, so much discussion, and so much reading I found that for me many of the posters here were right – that the answers she provided could never ever give me peace. What really began to add some slivers of peace were seeing her finally grapple with the “why” and other aspects of the affairs in an honest way. Sometimes she would infuriate or depress me with the particulars of her answers (or how they varied), but at each step where she would honestly TRY I could see that she truly cared. Finally cared. Enough. To face these demons. With me. When I can (and that is not always), I now try to accept her efforts, rather than her specific answers, as reflecting her love and caring.This has gone a long way in building the safety I need. And yet we have a long way to go; but a lot of life ahead of us.

 

 

The details of each situation, each of the persons involved,their histories, their love, their commitment, priorities, tolerances – all of this and more blend together in a complex soup from which we drink and make our decisions whether to D or R, often many times each year (or week). You have made the decisions that you felt were the best at each step along the way, and I honor that. I wish you the very best on your path.

[Lion Heart]

Glarner, that was a beautiful post. Poignant. Elegantly written. Thankyou.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Garner...my John could have written your post. Beautifully said......

[road]

If all this had happened 30 years ago to me and I was still being hit with it on a regular albeit occasional basis, I would want it all to go away too. Even if I had been truly remorseful. ESPECIALLY if I had been truly remorseful and honest. It would make me wonder why honesty was the best approach at all.

 

So I don't think you can tell one thing about her remorse based on that comment. I would think 30 years of being a good wife, mother, and grandmother would trump everything.

 

 

 

 

The problem is when the BH is trickled truthed he is left to constantly try to get the truth. Even 30 years later. So the WW has no one to blame that she still has to talk about the affair 30 years later.

 

 

Also how can a BH believe when his WW claims I can't remember it was 30 years ago. Sorry the WW can not have it both ways. To trickle truth for the 30 years then to flip the switch and say it was 30 years ago I can't remember to her BH.

 

 

The WW ignores that she had 30 years to forget. While her BH has spent 30 years trying to guess the missing pieces to the affair puzzle.

[road]

I wanted to respond to this thread the other day but could not get back till now.

 

From reading on infidelity forums for many years I have seen and thus learnt that there are two things that are not important post D day for a marriage to recover.

 

Example:

 

Remorse. Many a marriage has recovered without remorse from the WW. Married 5 years and boom, D day happens. WW goes NC.

 

Now for the next 25 years the WW is the perfect wife. Sex before D day was 2 - 3 times a week. Post D day sex is now everyday, WW puts on porn star performance every time. The house is kept spotless. WW dotes on her kids and BH. BH gets a full hot breakfast every morning, sent off to work with a packed deluxe lunch every work day. Perfect hot meal every night. Always a clean towel for every shower, always clean clothes to wear. BH never has to do a chore inside the house. BH even gets to hold the TV remote ( who can say anything more ).

 

 

Not once did the WW act remorseful. So because of that the BH would of been better to divorce his WW on D day then force his kids to go through 50/50 custody, have the OM as their step dad, miss out on the past 25 years of being married to the new and improved WW?

 

 

Affairs can never be undone. So the BH needs to weigh things out. Remember a BH was not looking to divorce his WW before D day. So as many BH's do they want to save their marriage.

 

 

Why:

 

 

I have found that a BH that needs the "why" is wasting time for they never get a worthwhile answer. What can a WW say. From I fell for the attention OM gave me. I thought you would never find out. All the women at work said he was great in bed. I can go on an on with a list of reasons as to why. But do not see any point to gain.

 

There is no "why" answer that will make the BH feel better.

 

 

In my case I know the why, never got much outward remorse. She was a good spouse, mother, and DIL.

 

The problem has been being trickle truthed for over 30 years. And that has had it's negative effect.

Edited March 22, 2015 by road

[Hope Shimmers]

The problem is when the BH is trickled truthed he is left to constantly try to get the truth. Even 30 years later. So the WW has no one to blame that she still has to talk about the affair 30 years later.

 

 

Also how can a BH believe when his WW claims I can't remember it was 30 years ago. Sorry the WW can not have it both ways. To trickle truth for the 30 years then to flip the switch and say it was 30 years ago I can't remember to her BH.

 

 

The WW ignores that she had 30 years to forget. While her BH has spent 30 years trying to guess the missing pieces to the affair puzzle.

 

I was trying to make one very specific point (that seems to have gotten lost). And that was on the assumption that she HAD been open and honest with him to the best of her ability all along. And it was on the assumption that she had remorse.

 

The point I was trying to make with that statement was that I do not think you can make judgments about whether her saying she wishes she hadn't told the truth means she really isn't remorseful. IF she was being truthful and doing the best she could and really could not offer anything else to him, AND she was still getting hit over the head with it 30 years later, I think it would be reasonable to just wish it would go away. Because there would be nothing left that she could do to make it stop.

 

I don't know if that is the case. I was just offering another alternative since others were all interpreting it in a negative way. She's not here to speak for herself and OP has not really said whether he believes she has been remorseful.

[Lion Heart]

The problem has been being trickle truthed for over 30 years. And that has had it's negative effect.

 

INDEED. This ^^^^ +1.

 

I CANNOT IMAGINE TT over 30y. Having it over 1 month was hell.

 

With my exWH none of it mattered. I packed and left the next day.

 

This D Day (oh my Anniversary today, 13w) was hell because we stayed, tried R.

 

Thank goodness for some things afterwards.

1. Me talking with OW for hours on D Day, she spilled everything she could. I was surprised at her massive admissions but a few days later i realized her intent WAS to end my M, kick WH to the curb do he would rapidly plant himself at her place. He'd already ended it a month before D Day. She was stalking him and our kids! He never had that intention.

2. WH sister advised WH on speaker phone with me, to "come clean about every single detail". So I got the 1% OW omitted.

3. OWs SIL works with me! Errrk. They've gone NC with OW over the A. SIL told me alot more about her behaviours with other MM. This helped.

4. Police got involved. Both will be in court should either ever contact each other again.

5. I researched other potential As and EAs, spoke to them all. 1 confirmed EA. She's most definitely horrified at WH A. She's NC.

 

WH is highly motivated for IC (been diagnosed) and MC which I'm not keen on anymore. I'm choosing Life Coaching and Hot Yoga!

 

The "whys" I've accepted as dumb but accepted nonetheless. Just dumb.

 

Road you explained so clearly how shocking TT can be over decades.

 

I'm truly sorry for everyone going through this. I may be still going through it. No new info for 2 months. Definitely butt to the curb on his next anything. Now I've shut down all $ affairs. Got my "ducks in a row". Not a threat. Protection mode. Lion Heart.

[Zenstudent]

Drifter, it is indeed a heartfelt and sad story. I don't have 30 years since d-day, and I haven't quite turned 50 yet, but I think I can relate to your story - much of it hit me tight in the heart at least.

 

One thing I thought about when I read this thread was: "Oh yeah, it is so easy for those who have betrayed their own spouse to just say. Forget it move on!" I even also started categorizing those who told you to move on - it's not a 100%, but there's a pretty high correlation between being a WS/fWS and "Forgive, forget, stop punishing".

 

Then I started thinking about wht it is that the people who tell you (and I) to just move on have that you and I apparantly don't. Combined with a reflection on the moments, days and weeks that I feel good about my self and my decision to try and make it work, I think I have an observation.

 

What other people are better at, and what I'm trying to learn myself is: Detaching.

 

People who are good at detaching from other people and from specific situations don't feel the pain the way we do and they don't get sad the same way. Those days where I manage to detach from my wife, accept that she may screw me over tomorrow, and realize that I can do absolutely nothing about it - besides walk away and find myself a better girlfriend, those are the days that I feel better.

 

Accept her for who she is, accept that you won't get any better answers than you already have allthough they don't satisfy you (and I don't blame you), realize what's your business and what is none of your business, is the key, I believe. It is really hard when you have 30 years+ invested, BTDT, got the t-shirt, so I know.

 

Learn to appreciate what you have, or move on somehow (I know you say you can't) - because you can't change her. Maybe a miracle will happen and she suddenly one day will say "I get it now", but wouldn't it be better to act on the things you actually can control - primarily yourself, your thoughts and your feelings?

 

Take care of yourself and your grandchild, I wish you only the best.

[Noirek]

Drifter, it is indeed a heartfelt and sad story. I don't have 30 years since d-day, and I haven't quite turned 50 yet, but I think I can relate to your story - much of it hit me tight in the heart at least.

 

One thing I thought about when I read this thread was: "Oh yeah, it is so easy for those who have betrayed their own spouse to just say. Forget it move on!" I even also started categorizing those who told you to move on - it's not a 100%, but there's a pretty high correlation between being a WS/fWS and "Forgive, forget, stop punishing".

 

Then I started thinking about wht it is that the people who tell you (and I) to just move on have that you and I apparantly don't. Combined with a reflection on the moments, days and weeks that I feel good about my self and my decision to try and make it work, I think I have an observation.

 

What other people are better at, and what I'm trying to learn myself is: Detaching.

 

People who are good at detaching from other people and from specific situations don't feel the pain the way we do and they don't get sad the same way. Those days where I manage to detach from my wife, accept that she may screw me over tomorrow, and realize that I can do absolutely nothing about it - besides walk away and find myself a better girlfriend, those are the days that I feel better.

 

Accept her for who she is, accept that you won't get any better answers than you already have allthough they don't satisfy you (and I don't blame you), realize what's your business and what is none of your business, is the key, I believe. It is really hard when you have 30 years+ invested, BTDT, got the t-shirt, so I know.

 

Learn to appreciate what you have, or move on somehow (I know you say you can't) - because you can't change her. Maybe a miracle will happen and she suddenly one day will say "I get it now", but wouldn't it be better to act on the things you actually can control - primarily yourself, your thoughts and your feelings?

 

Take care of yourself and your grandchild, I wish you only the best.

 

I really don't know what thread you were reading but none of us low-life waywards told him to just "get over it"

[Buckeye2]

The problem is when the BH is trickled truthed he is left to constantly try to get the truth. Even 30 years later.

 

I read it differently. OP’s wife was brutally honest pretty quickly just like Mrs. John Adams.

 

 

When I told her how I felt she would have none of it and told me that it was an important "awakening" for her and that it was my problem if I couldn't understand that. I reminded her that I had not dated or screwed anyone since the day we met and that what she did seemed wrong to me. She finally did apologize for hurting me, but didn't see it as cheating and believed it wasa positive learning experience for her.

 

She can see that her husband is hurt and she’s sorry for that but she doesn’t feel that she did anything that wrong. She may understand at an intellectual level but not at a gut level. She can’t understand or feel her husband’s pain. That’s the problem.

 

It’s like she ate pork her entire live then converted to a religion where it’s a sin. Everyone is jumping on her for eating pork and she is sorry because she promised not to. But deep down she doesn’t get why it’s that terrible to enjoy some bacon.

[road]

I really don't know what thread you were reading but none of us low-life waywards told him to just "get over it"

 

 

I think you took the post as an attack at some of those that posted on this thread. I did not. I read this as a general post about things that are said about affairs between WS' and BS's.

 

 

I have been on infidelity forums for 10+ years. In general, unfortunately I have seen too many WS's too many times say the phrase "just get over it", "can't you get over it", or "it's in the past/so long ago you should be over it by now". In response to a BS needing to still talk about the affair or dealing with being trickled truthed.

 

You have to understand that the WS can leave the affair in the past without talking about it because they know the who, why, where, when, what, and, how. They have all the information that they need and can move forward to heal. Revisiting the affair by talking about it moves them back to restart recover from the beginning. Picking at the wound/talking about the affair keeps the wound from healing/affair from being forgotten and left in the past.

 

The WS does not want to go through the pain of reliving the affair again. So they will do all that they can to avoid talking about the affair with their BS.

 

The BS does not know what the WS does and needs those answers to move forward. As if the BS needs the answers for their wound to be cleaned so they also can begin recovery and heal.

[Noirek]

I think you took the post as an attack at some of those that posted on this thread. I did not. I read this as a general post about things that are said about affairs between WS' and BS's.

 

 

I have been on infidelity forums for 10+ years. In general, unfortunately I have seen too many WS's too many times say the phrase "just get over it", "can't you get over it", or "it's in the past/so long ago you should be over it by now". In response to a BS needing to still talk about the affair or dealing with being trickled truthed.

 

You have to understand that the WS can leave the affair in the past without talking about it because they know the who, why, where, when, what, and, how. They have all the information that they need and can move forward to heal. Revisiting the affair by talking about it moves them back to restart recover from the beginning. Picking at the wound/talking about the affair keeps the wound from healing/affair from being forgotten and left in the past.

 

The WS does not want to go through the pain of reliving the affair again. So they will do all that they can to avoid talking about the affair with their BS.

 

The BS does not know what the WS does and needs those answers to move forward. As if the BS needs the answers for their wound to be cleaned so they also can begin recovery and heal.

 

So you think 30 years of this is healthy and acceptable?

[Noirek]

I read it differently. OP’s wife was brutally honest pretty quickly just like Mrs. John Adams.

 

 

 

 

She can see that her husband is hurt and she’s sorry for that but she doesn’t feel that she did anything that wrong. She may understand at an intellectual level but not at a gut level. She can’t understand or feel her husband’s pain. That’s the problem.

 

It’s like she ate pork her entire live then converted to a religion where it’s a sin. Everyone is jumping on her for eating pork and she is sorry because she promised not to. But deep down she doesn’t get why it’s that terrible to enjoy some bacon.

 

I can't seem to find what you quoted. I really am confused with the story now. It looks to me that he does have all the answers. He just doesn't like them. She doesn't regret what she did. She regrets he was hurt by it. She regrets he knew about it. She did it because she wanted to experience sex with other people. When it wasn't what she thought it would be/thought she would lose him she came back to him. She chose him over haveing multiple partners. He chose her. And they both choose to be married without happiness and love.

[Buckeye2]

I can't seem to find what you quoted. I really am confused with the story now.

 

Look Here:

 

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/278466-not-your-typical-case-cheating

[LivingWaterPlease]

drifter, I've read most of this thread but not all. I have a question for you to ask yourself.

 

Do you think, had your wife not cheated so long ago, that you still may be dissatisfied with your marriage because you don't have a deep connection with your wife and also because of her narcissism?

 

But add to the above factors her cheating and her possible inability or lack of effort to go to the depths of exploration of the causes and results of her cheating with you, the journey of restoration of your marriage may not be possible?

 

My mom cheated on my dad early in their marriage and I watched my dad's suffering for many years thereafter.

 

Mom has narcissistic traits and I don't think she ever was able to provide dad with the empathy and satisfaction he needed to move on. He had to find his own peace through his spiritual journey and it took a very long time to arrive there.

 

I wonder if this is not a big part of your problem with your wife. She just isn't capable of meeting you at the level of depth you need from her and had she not cheated you would still feel the void there. Possibly she's capable but unwilling, idk, but it may feel as if she's unwilling even if it is a case of her not being capable. But, add cheating to the lack of connection you have and it's just too much to overcome.

 

What do you think about this idea?

[velvette]

 

One of the consequeneces of this I have experienced is heavy influence that particular concepts around infidelity that get tossed around a lot in LS tend to enter my conscisousness and thus my world and eventually begin to shape my expectations of how I have been, am, and will think about things that happen to me. In essence, I begin to apply LS as a benchmark in the progress and possibility of my WW. And I feel that sometimes this might be done inappropriately (due to the specifics of the case) and impossible (because talk in a forum is just that, talk, and the theory and the practice do not always fit.

 

I say this of course, in the spirit of those of us BS's that got a level of remorse, a level of commitment back in our marriages that was sufficient at one time to allow us to move forward. And I think sometimes later, in LS, we up the ante from interchanging with other BS's stories.

 

.

 

 

I think this deserves repeating and is so true. Especially, if you are dealing with infidelity that happened before forums like these existed.

 

 

Most forums dealing with infidelity espouse many of the same steps theories etc. And, while in general I agree they are effective, it can be very difficult and even destructive to try to retroactively apply what you didn't apply at the time the infidelity happened because you didn't know any better.

 

 

But, its like any other remedy that is espoused for anything from disease to home repair. The same steps don't always work for everyone and if the problem has gone on for longer other things may be required.

 

 

Add to that that those of us here are in general more inclined to self awareness, introspection, analysis and even over thinking things than our WS who are not here. So, right off the bat, you have to allow for that difference in approach.

 

 

Its dangerous to measure your relationships against others whether its real life or online. You really don't know what goes on behind closed doors whether they are virtual or real.

[Hope Shimmers]

I think this deserves repeating and is so true. Especially, if you are dealing with infidelity that happened before forums like these existed.

 

 

Most forums dealing with infidelity espouse many of the same steps theories etc. And, while in general I agree they are effective, it can be very difficult and even destructive to try to retroactively apply what you didn't apply at the time the infidelity happened because you didn't know any better.

 

 

But, its like any other remedy that is espoused for anything from disease to home repair. The same steps don't always work for everyone and if the problem has gone on for longer other things may be required.

 

 

Add to that that those of us here are in general more inclined to self awareness, introspection, analysis and even over thinking things than our WS who are not here. So, right off the bat, you have to allow for that difference in approach.

 

 

Its dangerous to measure your relationships against others whether its real life or online. You really don't know what goes on behind closed doors whether they are virtual or real.

 

This is very true. And credit to fellini who brought it up - smart man, and one who has acted in some admirable ways and given a lot of great advice here.

 

I didn't see the other thread from drifter and what his WS said (the post quoted a few replies above). I agree that she does not sound remorseful and if that is the case, I can't see why anyone would sacrifice their happiness or moral integrity to stay married to such a person. It's not me in the situation though, and arguably there are other important factors - as long as they are not being used as excuses.

 

I was puzzled by the poster earlier who made an assessment that most WS's who posted on this thread said "just get over it and leave" and it was implied that BS's tended not to do that. I actually counted, and the proportion is about the same.

 

I'm not sure where I was counted in that assessment, but I suspect it was as a WS. I am NOT a WS and never will be. I have never broken any vows or promises I made in any relationship and I never will. That fact sometimes leads me to wonder if I should accept that there is something inherently wrong character-wise with people who do, but I still have to believe the best in people (at least most of those people here, but not all). That those people CAN change.

[velvette]

This is very true. And credit to fellini who brought it up - smart man, and one who has acted in some admirable ways and given a lot of great advice here.

 

I didn't see the other thread from drifter and what his WS said (the post quoted a few replies above). I agree that she does not sound remorseful and if that is the case, I can't see why anyone would sacrifice their happiness or moral integrity to stay married to such a person. It's not me in the situation though, and arguably there are other important factors - as long as they are not being used as excuses.

 

I was puzzled by the poster earlier who made an assessment that most WS's who posted on this thread said "just get over it and leave" and it was implied that BS's tended not to do that. I actually counted, and the proportion is about the same.

 

I'm not sure where I was counted in that assessment, but I suspect it was as a WS. I am NOT a WS and never will be. I have never broken any vows or promises I made in any relationship and I never will. That fact sometimes leads me to wonder if I should accept that there is something inherently wrong character-wise with people who do, but I still have to believe the best in people (at least most of those people here, but not all). That those people CAN change.

 

While I'm sure you believe this and it may end up being true, you really cant know that imo until all is said and done.

 

 

Character issues can certainly be at play in infidelity, but I think in general it has more to do with boundaries or lack there of and intentional thought/purpose not to cheat.

 

 

I actually think most people are wired to cheat under the right circumstances.

 

 

My H was a serial cheater, but that aside, he has a tremendous amount of integrity and character when it comes to other things.

 

 

I was going to address this in response to Mrs John Adams post about remorse being needed to demonstrate the WS wouldn't cheat again, but your post was here so easier than going back.

 

 

I simply don't buy that. If empathy dictated lack of cheating, no BS would ever cheat or become the OW and yet we see that here and in real life all the time.

 

 

While a certain degree of remorse is important to me, it is far more important to me that my H understands and acts on the boundaries he should have around our M and himself with regard to the opposite sex. As well has being transparent and not putting himself in situations that could cross a line.

 

 

Even so, there is nothing my H could say or do(nor any other man) to convince me they would never cheat.

 

 

What's important imo especially when you have experienced the trauma of infidelity is to understand yourself as much as you can about infidelity and to trust that you will be able to take care of yourself should it happen again.

[Hope Shimmers]

[/b]

 

While I'm sure you believe this and it may end up being true, you really cant know that imo until all is said and done.

 

Funny, because it used to be me saying that. I always said that.

 

I agree with you that people aren't wired for monogamy. It's a choice and a decision. I was married 15+ years in a mentally and physically abusive relationship and had multiple, multiple opportunities to cheat and I didn't. It was a decision. It will always be my decision. I am in control of my emotions and libido enough to find other ways.

[road]

So you think 30 years of this is healthy and acceptable?

 

 

 

 

No it is never acceptable for the WS to refuse to answer the BS's questions.

 

 

Once the BS has gotten all of their answers and gotten the facts all clarified there is no longer need to talk about the affair. For all more affair talk does is to keep the WS and the BS focused on the affair and those memories strong. For recovery from an affair needs to have the affair memories to fade.

 

 

That is the first step for them to reduce the incident and severity of getting triggers so they can heal. Thus if a trigger happens years later it will be so long ago since the last trigger they won't be able to remember how long ago it has been between triggers. And, that trigger will disappear from their mind as fast as it was recalled.

 

 

However when the WS will not be honest and end the trickle truth they can not expect their BS to let go of the past for the BS does not have what is missing to let the affair go.

 

 

So the WS has no one to blame but themselves. By the WS refusing to tell the BS the truth the WS will live the next 30 years with the elephant in the room/wall between them and their BS.

 

 

The WS's silence only leads the BS to conclude that the worst things that could of happened in the affair and who the affair happened with is why the WS will not talk.

 

 

However again once the WS has told all then the BS has to let it go. To rehash the affair for 30 years afterwards will not be healthy for the BS or the WS.

Edited March 23, 2015 by road

[velvette]

Funny, because it used to be me saying that. I always said that.

 

I agree with you that people aren't wired for monogamy. It's a choice and a decision. I was married 15+ years in a mentally and physically abusive relationship and had multiple, multiple opportunities to cheat and I didn't. It was a decision. It will always be my decision. I am in control of my emotions and libido enough to find other ways.

 

Didn't you choose to remain the OW after you became aware you were one? That's just the other side of the coin imo. Aiding and abetting cheating is no different than cheating in my book. Same character, boundary, decision issues.

 

 

While I do think there are people who by virtue of their experience can say with some degree of certainty they wont cheat, I don't believe anyone can guarantee it.

 

 

Sure its a decision and I don't think libido necessarily is a factor or the primary factor in many situations. There can be a confluence of events that none of us can predict that can make decision making less than rational.

 

 

I have some of the highest boundaries, most rational decision making facilities and strongest self control on the planet. But, I recently experienced a confluence of events that could easily have led to cheating.

 

 

Fortunately, I did not go there, but it was quite eye opening.

 

 

I actually think you are more at risk for cheating if you think you can guarantee you wont than if you work at maintaining boundaries that don't allow for cheating.

[Hope Shimmers]

Didn't you choose to remain the OW after you became aware you were one? That's just the other side of the coin imo. Aiding and abetting cheating is no different than cheating in my book. Same character, boundary, decision issues.

 

Yes, I stayed in the relationship because I believed him. Yes, that is on me. So yes, I am an OW. I take the hits for that, which you clearly are delivering.

 

Still, I feel I am different in some ways than someone who knowingly starts a relationship with a married man, and different than someone who lies and cheats to their spouse to do so. I think those 2 things are much worse. Those 2 things I didn't do and would not do. But, you are free to have your own negative opinion of me, if you think they are equivalent. You haven't walked in my shoes either.

 

While I do think there are people who by virtue of their experience can say with some degree of certainty they wont cheat, I don't believe anyone can guarantee it.

 

No one can "guarantee" anything. But I was in a position of really REALLY being tempted in a terrible place in my life, and didn't. And now I've had the experience that you just described above. I have a good degree of certainty that won't change. I won't be hurting any other innocent people. I will have a legitimate relationship, or none at all.

 

I have some of the highest boundaries, most rational decision making facilities and strongest self control on the planet. But, I recently experienced a confluence of events that could easily have led to cheating.

 

So have I. So have most of us. You are no different. You seem defensive.

 

I actually think you are more at risk for cheating if you think you can guarantee you wont than if you work at maintaining boundaries that don't allow for cheating.

 

You do not know me, so you have no idea of any work I have done at maintaining boundaries. Thanks.

[Noirek]

No it is never acceptable for the WS to refuse to answer the BS's questions.

 

 

Once the BS has gotten all of their answers and gotten the facts all clarified there is no longer need to talk about the affair. For all more affair talk does is to keep the WS and the BS focused on the affair and those memories strong. For recovery from an affair needs to have the affair memories to fade.

 

 

That is the first step for them to reduce the incident and severity of getting triggers so they can heal. Thus if a trigger happens years later it will be so long ago since the last trigger they won't be able to remember how long ago it has been between triggers. And, that trigger will disappear from their mind as fast as it was recalled.

 

 

However when the WS will not be honest and end the trickle truth they can not expect their BS to let go of the past for the BS does not have what is missing to let the affair go.

 

 

So the WS has no one to blame but themselves. By the WS refusing to tell the BS the truth the WS will live the next 30 years with the elephant in the room/wall between them and their BS.

 

 

The WS's silence only leads the BS to conclude that the worst things that could of happened in the affair and who the affair happened with is why the WS will not talk.

 

 

However again once the WS has told all then the BS has to let it go. To rehash the affair for 30 years afterwards will not be healthy for the BS or the WS.

 

But the problem with this is you saying it is the WS fault for 30 years. What about the BS choice to stay? When does one become responsible for their own actions as a BS? Or can they continue to blame their unhappiness and bad marriage on the WS so long as they "think" they haven't heard it all. And in this exact case it wasn't trickle truth being talked about but the WS not giving the "why" answer that the BS wants to hear. She admits she was selfish and wanted strange. That she is a narcissist. But after 30 years of him still asking why? What left is there to say?

[velvette]

Yes, I stayed in the relationship because I believed him. Yes, that is on me. So yes, I am an OW. I take the hits for that, which you clearly are delivering.

 

Still, I feel I am different in some ways than someone who knowingly starts a relationship with a married man, and different than someone who lies and cheats to their spouse to do so. I think those 2 things are much worse. Those 2 things I didn't do and would not do. But, you are free to have your own negative opinion of me, if you think they are equivalent. You haven't walked in my shoes either.

 

 

 

No one can "guarantee" anything. But I was in a position of really REALLY being tempted in a terrible place in my life, and didn't. And now I've had the experience that you just described above. I have a good degree of certainty that won't change. I won't be hurting any other innocent people. I will have a legitimate relationship, or none at all.

 

 

 

So have I. So have most of us. You are no different. You seem defensive.

 

 

 

You do not know me, so you have no idea of any work I have done at maintaining boundaries. Thanks.

 

I don't feel defensive at all. I was an OW. Im not delivering hits to you and in fact when I said you are more at risk of cheating if you believe you never would I meant you in general so relax.

 

 

You are free to evaluate your behavior however you choose; I don't see any difference in the character or personal issues involved in cheating vs being the affair partner. I think they are pretty similar. You are free to disagree.

 

 

I should have used Mrs. John Adams post. This really wasn't about you.

 

 

The point for Drifter was that remorse does not necessarily guarantee someone will not cheat again, so if that's the reason you need it perhaps think about how much you are willing to chase a remorse that looks exactly like you want it too. Some people are just not as good at expressing it as they may be at acting it out. Perhaps as others have said your wife has acted out her remorse for the last thirty years.

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't feel defensive at all. I was an OW. Im not delivering hits to you and in fact when I said you are more at risk of cheating if you believe you never would I meant you in general so relax.

 

I'm relaxed, thanks.

 

I have said the same thing as you, that people who think it won't happen to them are more likely to have it happen. Now I need to evaluate the fact that I was wrong on that.

 

You are free to evaluate your behavior however you choose; I don't see any difference in the character or personal issues involved in cheating vs being the affair partner. I think they are pretty similar. You are free to disagree.

 

You weren't in my shoes. And obviously, you cheated too.

 

I think my behavior as an OW was reprehensible. However, I didn't lie or cheat on a relationship of mine, or go against promises in MY relationship, because he was my only relationship. I think that difference matters.

 

The point for Drifter was that remorse does not necessarily guarantee someone will not cheat again, so if that's the reason you need it perhaps think about how much you are willing to chase a remorse that looks exactly like you want it too. Some people are just not as good at expressing it as they may be at acting it out. Perhaps as others have said your wife has acted out her remorse for the last thirty years.

 

Agreed.