Islam and Muhammad... WTF?

[SawtoothMars]

I did some light reading about the life of Muhammad. It strikes me as interesting that nobody talks about what a complete jerk Muhammad was in history. The guy butchered his way into a blood soaked empire... at several points slaughtering an entire community of jews to take the women and children as sex slaves. The guy married a 12 year old girl for heaven sakes! So... who the hell wants to follow a bloodthirsty pedophile?

[somedude81]

I did some light reading about the life of Muhammad. It strikes me as interesting that nobody talks about what a complete jerk Muhammad was in history. The guy butchered his way into a blood soaked empire... at several points slaughtering an entire community of jews to take the women and children as sex slaves. The guy married a 12 year old girl for heaven sakes! So... who the hell wants to follow a bloodthirsty pedophile?

 

I didn't know about that history, granted I never studied Islam.

 

It actually makes some sense with Islam pretty much being the most violent religion in these modern times.

[endlessabyss]

What book did you read?

 

 

I'm interested.

[Gloria25]

What did you read?

 

I recommend reading "There is No God But God" by Reza Azlan.

 

The story isn't as simple as some want to portray it to be. And, when you look at the time period involved, you will see that pagan gods were a business venture for certain groups and when Muhummad started preaching Islam - they weren't gonna have some guy come and take away all their profits from people worshiping pagan gods. That pushed them to extreme measures - which involve persecution (finding and killing) anyone who picked up Islam.

 

War is/was ugly - but, what do you do to defend yourself from people who want to persecute and/or kill you for your religious beliefs?

 

There were certain periods where negotiations were attempted, but were not successful.

 

I think the terrorists we are facing now a days have some nerve to try to use what they do as some sort of "jihad" which is not what Islam is facing now a days. Muslims have freedom to practice their religion where and how they seem fit. They can even move to somewhere else where they don't think they are being accepted.

 

Muhammad and his followers didn't have that luxury in their time. They tried moving and making agreements with certain people for sanctuary, but those treaties either expired, were betrayed (sold out), and/or weren't even entered into cuz those people feared the wrath the people persecuting muslims would do to them.

 

So, unfortunately, people see what Muhammad did as correlated to what terrorists do now a days when that is not so (i.e. saying Islam is a warring religion).

 

About him marrying the 12 yr old? Marrying in that time was also for political gain. If I'm correct, he married her for those purposes. Yea, the age is creepy, but sometimes when I look at all the nonsense "tweens" now a days get into, they should probably be married off instead of being allowed to taken advantaged of by pimply, horny teens/tweens.

[endlessabyss]

What did you read?

 

I recommend reading "There is No God But God" by Reza Azlan.

 

The story isn't as simple as some want to portray it to be. And, when you look at the time period involved, you will see that pagan gods were a business venture for certain groups and when Muhummad started preaching Islam - they weren't gonna have some guy come and take away all their profits from people worshiping pagan gods. That pushed them to extreme measures - which involve persecution (finding and killing) anyone who picked up Islam.

 

War is/was ugly - but, what do you do to defend yourself from people who want to persecute and/or kill you for your religious beliefs?

 

There were certain periods where negotiations were attempted, but were not successful.

 

I think the terrorists we are facing now a days have some nerve to try to use what they do as some sort of "jihad" which is not what Islam is facing now a days. Muslims have freedom to practice their religion where and how they seem fit. They can even move to somewhere else where they don't think they are being accepted.

 

Muhammad and his followers didn't have that luxury in their time. They tried moving and making agreements with certain people for sanctuary, but those treaties either expired, were betrayed (sold out), and/or weren't even entered into cuz those people feared the wrath the people persecuting muslims would do to them.

 

So, unfortunately, people see what Muhammad did as correlated to what terrorists do now a days when that is not so (i.e. saying Islam is a warring religion).

 

About him marrying the 12 yr old? Marrying in that time was also for political gain. If I'm correct, he married her for those purposes. Yea, the age is creepy, but sometimes when I look at all the nonsense "tweens" now a days get into, they should probably be married off instead of being allowed to taken advantaged of by pimply, horny teens/tweens.

 

I love your posts!

 

Did I ever tell you that?

[Nikki Sahagin]

I didn't know that history either. That seemed to be glossed over during religious education at school!

[Radu]

I did some light reading about the life of Muhammad. It strikes me as interesting that nobody talks about what a complete jerk Muhammad was in history. The guy butchered his way into a blood soaked empire... at several points slaughtering an entire community of jews to take the women and children as sex slaves. The guy married a 12 year old girl for heaven sakes! So... who the hell wants to follow a bloodthirsty pedophile?

 

Honestly i can't blame him for either and here's why :

- at the time his group was at war with that tribe of jews and he did that only after he had already defeated them and let them go [they started plotting again and actively tried to defeat them].

As i recall he also did not enslave them; the women were given as wives to the fighters.

- marrying a 12yr old girl is imoral based on current Western morality.

In some countries it is still legal [as imoral as it sounds].

In the West there were instances of sexual engagement with girls of that age in the 19th century [Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13yr old cousin].

The roma ppl [gypsies] marry girls off around that age and boys slightly later to this day [boys later because they are considered more imature].

Muhammed lived just short after the Roman Empire and during the life of it ... girls were marrigeable at 12 and boys at 14.

 

 

The reason Islam can be so violent is a number of things :

- strict rules

- a belief that they are the ultimate monotheistic religion

- tribal lives of the semitic ppl [at the time of muhammed many tribes were christian or other as well as jewish]

- a franchise setup; anybody can claim to be an imam and preach it ... remind them that pillaging is ok as long as they give a 5th to the state

- a deep and abiding belief that electing rulers should not happen

But most of all it comes down to the fact that it is a license to f*ck ppl over.

[alphamale]

I didn't know that history either. That seemed to be glossed over during religious education at school!

why would the followers of one religion teach you good things about another religion

[gaius]

I'm sure a lot of Muslims jerk off to the thought of slaughtering a whole Jewish village and taking their women. Well, they would if they were allowed to jerk off. It's been a long time since any Muslim army could defeat a Jewish village, and it's not a representation that's out of line with the attitudes and what goes on over there nowadays.

[Nikki Sahagin]

why would the followers of one religion teach you good things about another religion

 

You miss the point. Our religious studies class was a compulsory secondary and primary school class. We learnt about Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhs, Hindus and atheists. They probably didn't think telling girls that the prophet Mu married a 12 year old was needed for our ears.

[SawtoothMars]

What did you read?

I recommend reading "There is No God But God" by Reza Azlan.

The story isn't as simple as some want to portray it to be. And, when you look at the time period involved, you will see that pagan gods were a business venture for certain groups and when Muhummad started preaching Islam - they weren't gonna have some guy come and take away all their profits from people worshiping pagan gods. That pushed them to extreme measures - which involve persecution (finding and killing) anyone who picked up Islam.

War is/was ugly - but, what do you do to defend yourself from people who want to persecute and/or kill you for your religious beliefs?

There were certain periods where negotiations were attempted, but were not successful.

I think the terrorists we are facing now a days have some nerve to try to use what they do as some sort of "jihad" which is not what Islam is facing now a days. Muslims have freedom to practice their religion where and how they seem fit. They can even move to somewhere else where they don't think they are being accepted.

Muhammad and his followers didn't have that luxury in their time. They tried moving and making agreements with certain people for sanctuary, but those treaties either expired, were betrayed (sold out), and/or weren't even entered into cuz those people feared the wrath the people persecuting muslims would do to them.

So, unfortunately, people see what Muhammad did as correlated to what terrorists do now a days when that is not so (i.e. saying Islam is a warring religion).

About him marrying the 12 yr old? Marrying in that time was also for political gain. If I'm correct, he married her for those purposes. Yea, the age is creepy, but sometimes when I look at all the nonsense "tweens" now a days get into, they should probably be married off instead of being allowed to taken advantaged of by pimply, horny teens/tweens.

 

The book is called The Truth About Muhammad. I'm familiar with Reza Arslan and I generally like his stuff. However, being Muslim, I doubt he could say anything honest about this warrior prophet without getting the Charlie Hebdo treatment.

 

By the way... Muhammad actually married Aisha when she was age 9. Muslims today claim the marriage wasn't consummated until she turned 12. I think this is likely bullcrap, as no historical documents say he waited.

 

The original converts to Islam DID have to flee for a while, but the conquest of Mecca was a top priority from day 1. Muhammad routinely initiated preemptive strikes and justified them through some rumor that the people where plotting against him.

 

When I was reading the book and it talked about the slaughter of the Jewish Qurayza tribe and the subsequent rape/sex slavery of their women and children... I honestly struggled to believe ANYONE could be that freaking evil. Let alone a man who claims to come from God. I looked it up on Wikipedia just to be sure.... and I guess it's true.

[SawtoothMars]

Honestly i can't blame him for either and here's why :

- at the time his group was at war with that tribe of jews and he did that only after he had already defeated them and let them go [they started plotting again and actively tried to defeat them].

As i recall he also did not enslave them; the women were given as wives to the fighters.

- marrying a 12yr old girl is imoral based on current Western morality.

In some countries it is still legal [as imoral as it sounds].

In the West there were instances of sexual engagement with girls of that age in the 19th century [Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13yr old cousin].

The roma ppl [gypsies] marry girls off around that age and boys slightly later to this day [boys later because they are considered more imature].

Muhammed lived just short after the Roman Empire and during the life of it ... girls were marrigeable at 12 and boys at 14.

 

If you actually read about the battle of trenches... After murdering and stealing everything they possessed Muhammad needed some excuse. IF they were really plotting against him then they would have let the hostile army through. Even Muslim scholars admit they did not, but claim some unknown Muslim spy tricked the Jews into not trusting the other army. Which is a preposterous notion given that Muhammad had multiple times before ordered his followers to kill Jews... only recinding the order when the Jews gave up more rights, freedoms, and money.

 

The bottom line is that the Jews represented a theological threat to Muhammad. Remember, before this his followers were instructed to pray towards Jerusalem... but afterwards "Allah" told him to switch to Mecca. He had every fighting age Jewish man killed... and yes did divide the women and children up as sex slaves for his followers.

[Clair93]

About him marrying the 12 yr old? Marrying in that time was also for political gain. If I'm correct, he married her for those purposes. Yea, the age is creepy, but sometimes when I look at all the nonsense "tweens" now a days get into, they should probably be married off instead of being allowed to taken advantaged of by pimply, horny teens/tweens.

 

You're not correct. Muhammad (around 50 years old) married Aisha when she was 6-7 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, the first man to become a Muslim and Muhammad's strongest ally and second-in-command. Muhammad often called him his "brother" and he became Islam's first caliphate after Muhammad's death. Abu Bakr also had older, single daughters at the time. Muhammad died when she was 18. There are lots of hadith about Muhammad's feeling and affections for her. Tell me what was the political gain? There wasn't any.

 

Don't be an apologist for pedophilia.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Clair93

[badpenny]

You're not correct. Muhammad (around 50 years old) married Aisha when she was 6-7 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, the first man to become a Muslim and Muhammad's strongest ally and second-in-command. Muhammad often called him his "brother" and he became Islam's first caliphate after Muhammad's death. Abu Bakr also had older, single daughters at the time. Muhammad died when she was 18. There are lots of hadith about Muhammad's feeling and affections for her. Tell me what was the political gain? There wasn't any.

 

Don't be an apologist for pedophilia.

It's only pedophlia because you say it is. We're members of a society, today, here and now, that condemns and denounces such behavior. We classify it as unnatural and predatory, and we seek to expose those guilty of such carnal desires as inhuman, and not worthy of our respect, or of liberty.

we persecute such 'animals' and recoil at such proclivities.

 

Yet in parts of the world today, and certainly, not so long ago in our own society, such behaviour was the norm and young girls were betrothed, promised in marriage and 'given away' to much older spouses.

 

in fact, the tendency for men to go with younger women is still the norm; for a woman to marry a younger man still raises eyebrows in some parts, and spouses of identical ages are rare.

 

Granted, the age-gap is much reduced, but it's still considered quite normal, acceptable, and usual for a man to be between 2 - 5 years older than his wife/partner.

 

The age gap is still there, albeit narrower.

 

The reason is as I gave. Because once upon a time, child-brides were socially acceptable.

Pedophilia is subjective.

I'm not saying it's right, or that it doesn't exist.

I'm saying that historically, attitudes being what they were, our current opinion holds no water as to the conditions prevalent then.

If our opinions were of any relevance, women would still be wearing corsets and be tied to domesticity.

[SawtoothMars]

You're not correct. Muhammad (around 50 years old) married Aisha when she was 6-7 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, the first man to become a Muslim and Muhammad's strongest ally and second-in-command. Muhammad often called him his "brother" and he became Islam's first caliphate after Muhammad's death. Abu Bakr also had older, single daughters at the time. Muhammad died when she was 18. There are lots of hadith about Muhammad's feeling and affections for her. Tell me what was the political gain? There wasn't any.

 

Don't be an apologist for pedophilia.

 

Wait... I've always been told by Muslims that they married at 9 and consummated at 12.

 

Either way... I'm sure Muhammad treated her as a woman grown at age 9. Which in my book makes him the prophet of pedophilia!

[somedude81]

What shocks me the most about Islam is how the Muslims actually attack and kill other Muslims. This all started because of a disagreement on who is Muhammad's successor.

 

He died almost 1,400 years ago and they are still killing each other over it.

[Keats]

You guys are perfectly entitled to call this pheofophilia but it is insulting and ignorant mostly due to the fact that the context of then was not the same as now. Now is a totally different world.

 

I'm shocked some of you are quoting Wikipedia

 

This article best explains why it is insulting to label Aisha a victim and of course for those Muslims who use the age confusion to abuse

 

girls.The truth about Muhammad and Aisha | Myriam François-Cerrah | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

Also Islam isn't the most violent religion today. That perception is incorrect.

 

Many Muslims countries are ruled by oppressive leaders and are invaded and occupied also by the west and its fairly awful foreign policy. Muslims also Muslims. Muslims are not perfect.

 

But frankly some of the generalisation here is wrong. They used these same generalisations to demonize the Jewish community too. Don't do it to the Muslims. The media is very Islamophobic.

 

You need to read the Quran properly with context. In regards to the whole Jewish community being killed and wiped out as toy have said. It was war and their is a context. Muslims did not go around willy nilly killing Jews. Again the west is responsible for the genocide of of the Jewish people, Muslims don't even hate Jews, they Jews and Christians are considered people of the book. That is how they are referred to in the Quran. Also Muslim men can also marry Jewish and Christian people.

 

Muslims these days only care about atrocities taking place in Palestine. Again the media and the world of politics would rather prefer you to believe that Muslims instead are anti semetic. Absolute pish posh.

[somedude81]

I can't think of any other religion that shouts some form of "Glory to God" before shooting somebody. Or going on 'holy wars' and wanting to punish infidels.

 

Yes Christianity/Catholicism has a violent path and wars have been fought over religion, but that was hundreds of years ago. Why can't Islam move on too?

[badpenny]

I can't think of any other religion that shouts some form of "Glory to God" before shooting somebody. Or going on 'holy wars' and wanting to punish infidels.

 

Yes Christianity/Catholicism has a violent path and wars have been fought over religion, but that was hundreds of years ago. Why can't Islam move on too?

 

The troubles in Ireland are still burnt on peoples' memories, they're pretty recent.

 

And Catholicism is quite stringent when it comes to marrying someone outside the religion.

 

All Religions (Buddhism included) have extremist factions which not only invite condemnation from outside of that religion, but are subject to much criticism within it, also.

Sexism is rife in many different belief systems, and violence is seen as justified by the twisted and deluded minds of the perpetrators.

 

 

No sane person is going to justify the current atrocities being perpetrated by IS, just as extremist Buddhist factions in Myanmar are drawing world-wide condemnation from other Buddhist groups. Law-abiding and devout Catholics and Protestants alike join together to denounce those responsible for the atrocities which occurred not long ago in Northern Ireland, and let us not even begin discussing Israel and Palestine.

 

so, in brief, your statement is incorrect.

[Clair93]

It's only pedophlia because you say it is. We're members of a society, today, here and now, that condemns and denounces such behavior. We classify it as unnatural and predatory, and we seek to expose those guilty of such carnal desires as inhuman, and not worthy of our respect, or of liberty.

we persecute such 'animals' and recoil at such proclivities.

 

Yet in parts of the world today, and certainly, not so long ago in our own society, such behaviour was the norm and young girls were betrothed, promised in marriage and 'given away' to much older spouses.

 

in fact, the tendency for men to go with younger women is still the norm; for a woman to marry a younger man still raises eyebrows in some parts, and spouses of identical ages are rare.

 

Granted, the age-gap is much reduced, but it's still considered quite normal, acceptable, and usual for a man to be between 2 - 5 years older than his wife/partner.

 

The age gap is still there, albeit narrower.

 

The reason is as I gave. Because once upon a time, child-brides were socially acceptable.

Pedophilia is subjective.

I'm not saying it's right, or that it doesn't exist.

I'm saying that historically, attitudes being what they were, our current opinion holds no water as to the conditions prevalent then.

If our opinions were of any relevance, women would still be wearing corsets and be tied to domesticity.

 

If Muhammed was just another person in history, you were right. When people argue that he is the best example to ever walk to earth (past, present AND future), that his teachings are ETERNAL. We call on their BS. Marrying a 6 year old was rubbish then, it's rubbish now, it will be rubbish in the future.

[Clair93]

You guys are perfectly entitled to call this pheofophilia but it is insulting and ignorant mostly due to the fact that the context of then was not the same as now. Now is a totally different world.

 

I'm shocked some of you are quoting Wikipedia

 

This article best explains why it is insulting to label Aisha a victim and of course for those Muslims who use the age confusion to abuse

 

girls.The truth about Muhammad and Aisha | Myriam François-Cerrah | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

Also Islam isn't the most violent religion today. That perception is incorrect.

 

Have you even read that article? It's disgusting through and through. It argues for moral relativism (something Islam itself is strongly against), and if you begin to contextualize THIS act of Muhammed, why should you bother caring about everything else in Islam? By the same logic that you dismiss this, you can dismiss ALL OF ISLAM.

[alphamale]

Yes Christianity/Catholicism has a violent path and wars have been fought over religion, but that was hundreds of years ago. Why can't Islam move on too?

let me bring you up to date: the 1970's and Ireland

[Clair93]

You need to read the Quran properly with context.

 

When you read it on context, it's even worse because you can't do mental gymnastics over some horrible bits there. AND you should read the supposedly good bits in context as well (e.g. no compulsion in religion only means people shouldn't need any convincing to accept Islam when you read it in context, it doesn't mean people are free to choose their religion).

 

In regards to the whole Jewish community being killed and wiped out as toy have said. It was war and their is a context. Muslims did not go around willy nilly killing Jews. Again the west is responsible for the genocide of of the Jewish people, Muslims don't even hate Jews, they Jews and Christians are considered people of the book. That is how they are referred to in the Quran.

 

Muhammad beheaded hundreds of Jews in one day AFTER they surrendered (Banu Qurayza), and he took their women and children as slaves. What's that about? Muhammad himself said that monkeys are Jews that went finishing on a Sunday. Good luck rationalizing this "in context".

 

Also Muslim men can also marry Jewish and Christian people.

 

And Muslim women can't marry Jewish/Christian men. What's that all about?

 

Muslims these days only care about atrocities taking place in Palestine. Again the media and the world of politics would rather prefer you to believe that Muslims instead are anti semetic. Absolute pish posh.

 

Absolutely. Muslims today are fine. Islam isn't. The good nice Muslims don't take the Quran or life of Muhammad seriously.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Clair93

[somedude81]

let me bring you up to date: the 1970's and Ireland

 

What happened in Ireland? I wasn't alive back then and nothing was taught in school about it.

[alphamale]

What happened in Ireland? I wasn't alive back then and nothing was taught in school about it.

in northern ireland the british protestants tried to calm uprisings by the irish catholics. Much blood was shed over a number of years. The irish were labeled "terrorists"