I know I'm crazy for doing this...(Updated)

[SolG]

So, how is NC going for me so far? Well, we're four hours in and he's sent me five texts. I replied to three, and the last was a good night. This is NOT how I envisaged this going :/

 

I'm going to have to rewind to last night for context. We had our last Skype night. Talked until the wee hours. He said that our holiday overseas was a Godsend; that the blow up allowed us to cut through the remaining BS. Which is true. There were no holds barred. We really let each other have it to the core. Then the dissection and grieving...

 

But then... and this bit was new to me... he talked about how we remained in contact when the vacation was over. About how we fought for what we had. That we continued to examine ourselves and our context. This is also true, but from my perspective I thought we were preparing each other to move on. From his perspective, he says it confirmed to him that noone will ever be able to know him the way I do. And seeing me in person the other day confirmed that.

 

He says I've convinced him that he does owe his W a measure of authenticity. That while he will not tell her of our A... he will tell her who he is in all other ways. That he owes her at least this. He said he's terrified of doing this. And I understand that this must be a scary thing indeed for a man who has spent a whole M conforming to a facade.

 

And then he said he can't contemplate a life without me in it. And I said I can't contemplate being in his life other than legitimately and openly. He said this is still a goal. I said I didn't believe he would ever pursue such a goal at the cost of disharmony. He said I shouldn't be so sure of that anymore. And that when we see each other mid-year things might just be different.

 

I'm slightly confused. Slightly hopeful. And immensely cautious. I can't capitulate again. The lies and deceipt and hiding are just too painful to revisit. But here I am responding to texts...

 

Check...

[Gloria_Smellons]

And then he said he can't contemplate a life without me in it. And I said I can't contemplate being in his life other than legitimately and openly. He said this is still a goal. I said I didn't believe he would ever pursue such a goal at the cost of disharmony. He said I shouldn't be so sure of that anymore. And that when we see each other mid-year things might just be different.

 

Sure, things might be different in 6 months, just like I might win the lotto, like I might become a famous movie star, or like I might discover the cure for cancer. In the general sense, things stay pretty much the same unless we actively start doing things differently.

 

All I really hear here is 'I like things as they are, let's not change it because it's working for me'. You've already said this isn't working for you. You've laid your perfectly acceptable boundaries on the table and he has done what exactly?

 

No contact isn't just going to happen because you've said it out loud, you have to actively make it happen.

 

If the game is at stalemate the only way to 'win' is to remove yourself from playing.

 

You have your choices, they are simple, but that doesn't make them easy;

Carry on doing the same things and feeling the same things, accepting that you are choosing this way of life for yourself and make peace with it.

Decide that this isn't what you want and change it.

 

You have the power to choose.

[Sassy Girl]

Dear god . Hes been saying this for how many years now?

 

Tell me, are you still accessing his accounts and monitoring his communications with his wife?

 

Have you deleted numbers and contacts?

 

Are you even committed to NC, or was this feeble attempt at NC your last (second last? Third?) Ditch attempt to hold his feet to the fire?

 

I have been brief and short with your posts because i see a lot of posturing and gonna dos, but no action.

 

I dont think you intend to end this at all. Youre just desperately hoping he will choose you, but he didnt. That ship has long sailed. You need to move on for yourself.

 

And hes just your garden variety cake eater. except now not only has he chosen his wife, hes told you he will be trying to bring initimacy back in to their relationship, the stuff hes been shortchanging her for years ....and youre still 'hopeful'?.... umm what?

 

Seriously...what will it take for you to see?

[Tullyseptember]

You are very articulate and intelligent, you and your AP both. It is almost as if you two have discussed so much about your NC that you both have forgot to actually put NC in action. It would seem to me that if you both really wanted this the talking would stop and you would just do. Neither of you are willing or ready to let go, it really is a stalemate. Nothing will change untill full blown authenticy is embraced until then it's all talk and no action:)

[gettingstronger]

I like you, there is something really genuine about your posts- I believe you believe him but......

 

 

from the outside looking in, he seems like a master at manipulating you- you draw a line, he inches up and then moves it a little further- in the end, nothing has changed at all and you are no closer to him leaving than before- what has changed is that he has calmed your fears, for now, and given you renewed hope in something he is never going to do-be yours full time and open- he is really good at acknowledging your feelings and then nothing absolutely nothing to address any type of resolution-limbo, limbo, limbo-he keeps you there-

 

Please safe guard you-the longer you allow this, the more its going to hurt when you have finally had enough-

[minimariah]

i knew this would happen - you & him are FAAAAAR from done.

[Blu72]

They are ONLY far from done because they never really try to be done.

[SolG]

Dear god . Hes been saying this for how many years now?

 

Tell me, are you still accessing his accounts and monitoring his communications with his wife?

 

Have you deleted numbers and contacts?

 

Are you even committed to NC, or was this feeble attempt at NC your last (second last? Third?) Ditch attempt to hold his feet to the fire?

 

I have been brief and short with your posts because i see a lot of posturing and gonna dos, but no action.

 

I dont think you intend to end this at all. Youre just desperately hoping he will choose you, but he didnt. That ship has long sailed. You need to move on for yourself.

 

And hes just your garden variety cake eater. except now not only has he chosen his wife, hes told you he will be trying to bring initimacy back in to their relationship, the stuff hes been shortchanging her for years ....and youre still 'hopeful'?.... umm what?

 

Seriously...what will it take for you to see?

 

Sassy, thank you for your unique brand of cynicism We have indeed recently given up all access to each other's accounts. I've never required him to choose just me; I'm not a dyed in the wool monogamist (God forbid!). Openness and true sharing have always been my goal.

 

As for intimacy in his M... It is not a case of bringing it back. It's actually introducing it for the first time ever. His W has no idea who he is. And contrary to his assertions, I don't believe he knows who she is either. In his arrogance he thinks he's the only one with the depth to have secrets. I think he may just underestimate her entirely. Which probably wouldn't be a concept foreign to you given your M.

 

What will it take me to see? Well, it will take me to see I guess.

 

You are very articulate and intelligent, you and your AP both. It is almost as if you two have discussed so much about your NC that you both have forgot to actually put NC in action. It would seem to me that if you both really wanted this the talking would stop and you would just do. Neither of you are willing or ready to let go, it really is a stalemate. Nothing will change untill full blown authenticy is embraced until then it's all talk and no action:)

 

Tully, your mention of us talking about NC to death made me LOL Because it's true. I don't think I fully explained the concept. As recently as this morning we were bracing each other... And then soon as he landed two texts :/

 

To a certain extent I think for us the talking in and of itself is doing. It's probably been our major source of joy in our A. It's where we started and finished. think we could probably exist on this alone.

 

I like you, there is something really genuine about your posts- I believe you believe him but......

 

 

from the outside looking in, he seems like a master at manipulating you- you draw a line, he inches up and then moves it a little further- in the end, nothing has changed at all and you are no closer to him leaving than before- what has changed is that he has calmed your fears, for now, and given you renewed hope in something he is never going to do-be yours full time and open- he is really good at acknowledging your feelings and then nothing absolutely nothing to address any type of resolution-limbo, limbo, limbo-he keeps you there-

 

Please safe guard you-the longer you allow this, the more its going to hurt when you have finally had enough-

 

Gettingstronger, you've always been a wise and compassionate voice for me. You're right, I do believe him. You're also right in that he now knows me so well he knows exactly what buttons to push.

 

But... I'm now at least wise enough to know that he knows. I have renewed hope... But also caution. I'm having a rare pragmatic moment and expecting the worst. But not feeling devastated by the prospect

[elaine567]

YOU: I am LEAVING you for good, this just doesn't work. Finito. Dead.

HIM: B-B-But what about this?

YOU: OK, but I am still thinking of leaving, it sorta doesn't work for me, you're still married.

HIM: B-b-but, what about this other thing.

YOU: OK, but I should leave really... Yeah, I suppose it might work, but...

HIM: B-b-but, what about something else I just thought of.

YOU: OK, maybe I shouldn't simply go, but things will have to change.

HIM: Like what?

YOU: What about your wife?

HIM: Later, darling SolG, later... love you.

YOU: Love you too.

HIM: That's so much better, it's so good to get things out in the open...

[SolG]

i knew this would happen - you & him are FAAAAAR from done.

 

They are ONLY far from done because they never really try to be done.

 

Thanks ladies. Both correct. I don't think either of us have the will to ever truly be done as in not a part of each other's lives at all. I think we'll always be there in some capacity. This has proven to me that neither of us really wants NC. Although, I must say I was expecting at least a while after he got home.

[Cinnimon]

Thanks ladies. Both correct. I don't think either of us have the will to ever truly be done as in not a part of each other's lives at all. I think we'll always be there in some capacity. This has proven to me that neither of us really wants NC. Although, I must say I was expecting at least a while after he got home.

 

Of course he is never going to want NC, he's got the best of both worlds.

And yes you will forever be in each others lives but maybe not in the capacity you are hoping for. I think it will be most likely he will be in your head and heart for years to come as your trying to pull whats left of you off the wet tear puddled floor when all is said and done and you will forever be in his heart and mind as he looks back and thinks oh that Sogi, she was such a good little soldier, too bad she had to die.

AND to be authentic you have to be truthful. " This is me honey, Ive been cheating on you, how do you like me now?" "what, I am a cake eating pig?" "Sogi doesn't think so, and she's the cake" !!!

[Furious]

So, how is NC going for me so far? Well, we're four hours in and he's sent me five texts. I replied to three, and the last was a good night. This is NOT how I envisaged this going :/

 

I'm going to have to rewind to last night for context. We had our last Skype night. Talked until the wee hours. He said that our holiday overseas was a Godsend; that the blow up allowed us to cut through the remaining BS. Which is true. There were no holds barred. We really let each other have it to the core. Then the dissection and grieving...

 

But then... and this bit was new to me... he talked about how we remained in contact when the vacation was over. About how we fought for what we had. That we continued to examine ourselves and our context. This is also true, but from my perspective I thought we were preparing each other to move on. From his perspective, he says it confirmed to him that noone will ever be able to know him the way I do. And seeing me in person the other day confirmed that.

 

He says I've convinced him that he does owe his W a measure of authenticity. That while he will not tell her of our A... he will tell her who he is in all other ways. That he owes her at least this. He said he's terrified of doing this. And I understand that this must be a scary thing indeed for a man who has spent a whole M conforming to a facade.

 

And then he said he can't contemplate a life without me in it. And I said I can't contemplate being in his life other than legitimately and openly. He said this is still a goal. I said I didn't believe he would ever pursue such a goal at the cost of disharmony. He said I shouldn't be so sure of that anymore. And that when we see each other mid-year things might just be different.

 

I'm slightly confused. Slightly hopeful. And immensely cautious. I can't capitulate again. The lies and deceipt and hiding are just too painful to revisit. But here I am responding to texts...

 

Check...

 

It's a stalemate, unfortunately both of you are limbo dancers and the pole gets lower and lower as time goes on. I'm sorry, but the intellectualization feats of denial are only getting more and more surreal.

 

I see you are both in some kind of power struggle of two people who are invested in deceit can talk about authenticity with a straight face is alarming.

 

It's obvious that letting go of feel good ego massaging is difficult to let go of while preserving the affair and family requires mental gymnastics.

 

The affair has reached at brick wall, the fun and spontaneity has been replaced by arguments and the risk of exposure. Your mm has diffused your threat to call his wife. Ironically, this scared him, but you've reassured him you will not go there.

 

You are and now playing nice and he gets to call the shots, just as he expects to. He has put you in your place. Swallow your pride, make his issues prominent, be there to stroke his ego, be the ow martyr and Skype about NC, in the meanwhile wait for him and intellectualize the complexities of striving for authenticity while practising the opposite.

 

The mistake is wanting more, he wishes for you to want less. That is the line in the sand. Sadly, as intelligent and you are, you lower your value at his beckoning. He runs and stars in the "authenticity" show and you and his wife are supporting actors.

 

It's a game of push and pull, the drama, the mind games on both your parts.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Furious

[beach]

You are done and moving forward when you stop responding to any communication from him.

 

Of course he's likely to keep sending you texts - he's trying to be sure you are still there interacting with him... And it's working.

 

For him, it's easier than going out and trying to find a new OW...

 

Just don't respond. Or better yet - block him.

 

 

You deserve to find a partner who is available for you.

[whichwayisup]

I'm slightly confused. Slightly hopeful. And immensely cautious. I can't capitulate again. The lies and deceipt and hiding are just too painful to revisit. But here I am responding to texts...

And the cycle begins again. Neither of you are truly willing to let go and say goodbye forever. You both are OK with contact and even though you say the lies, hiding and deceit are painful, obviously it's not enough to make you end it and go full on NC. He is playing you (selfishly, not maliciously) like a fiddle to make sure you won't walk away. The guy is full of crap, how can he live 'authentic' at home, show his wife who he is yet NOT tell her he's been having an affair and continuing the A with you? How can he begin to invest in her, when he still wants you?

[Rainbowlove]

YOU: I am LEAVING you for good, this just doesn't work. Finito. Dead.

HIM: B-B-But what about this?

YOU: OK, but I am still thinking of leaving, it sorta doesn't work for me, you're still married.

HIM: B-b-but, what about this other thing.

YOU: OK, but I should leave really... Yeah, I suppose it might work, but...

HIM: B-b-but, what about something else I just thought of.

YOU: OK, maybe I shouldn't simply go, but things will have to change.

HIM: Like what?

YOU: What about your wife?

HIM: Later, darling SolG, later... love you.

YOU: Love you too.

HIM: That's so much better, it's so good to get things out in the open...

 

Haha.

 

This was awesome.

 

Sol. I'm not laughing at you or your situation.

 

I just loved this, though.

[minimariah]

Sol... i have faith in you.

and i know you'll do what's the best for you in the end.

 

until then? think about you, work on you & love you. make yourself happy.

 

[SolG]

You are of course all correct. Authenticity is not the right word here at all; this would necessitate revealing the A to achieve. Greater intimacy is probably more semantically appropriate.

 

After having slept on this, I think that I don't have an issue in engaging in an EA. Without the physical component, we'll be unlikely to meet as we did when we had incentive to align our travel plans. So talking it is! And that's always been the best bit IMO.

 

I have no doubt that the EA will then peter out as we see each other less and our lives reshape. Eventually I think we might just be friends again. I'm far more comfortable with this as an exit strategy. It is much more aligned to how most of my other Rs ended. I am going to throw out the concept of NC; while it must be ideal for lots of folk (or it wouldn't be so popular), it's definitley not for me.

 

And continued contact stands in the way of absolutley nothing for me. He doesn't need to stay in contact with me to stop me from finding someone else. He knows full well that I don't do relationships. I do sex, but not emotional entanglements. MM was a complete aberration. I do intend to go back to my old pattern quite soon.

 

I'm not completely ruling out a more meaningful connection in the future, but this is not something I'll actively pursue. If it happens, it happens. But if it does, it will not involve marriage, or settling in one place or even necessarily living in the same location. It may not even entail monogamy. (I've been in a traditional M and the mere thought of going there again sends shivers up my spine.)

 

There is of course the what will happen in six months factor. I think you're right. It will more than likely be nothing/more of the same.

[Sassy Girl]

Sassy, thank you for your unique brand of cynicism We have indeed recently given up all access to each other's accounts. I've never required him to choose just me; I'm not a dyed in the wool monogamist (God forbid!). Openness and true sharing have always been my goal.

 

Oh come on.... This is false. The reason why you had access to his accounts was because you wanted true monogamy and assurance that he was not carrying on a relationship with his wife as well. I've read your back posts. It's all there. You were monitoring all the conversations he had with his wife and would get angry and jealous if he was sweet or romantic with her. I remember. It was one of the most God awful things I read here... An OW monitoring conversations between her MM and wife to make sure she he was monogomous. You're rewriting .

 

As for intimacy in his M... It is not a case of bringing it back. It's actually introducing it for the first time ever. His W has no idea who he is. And contrary to his assertions, I don't believe he knows who she is either. In his arrogance he thinks he's the only one with the depth to have secrets. I think he may just underestimate her entirely. Which probably wouldn't be a concept foreign to you given your M.

 

What will it take me to see? Well, it will take me to see I guess.

 

You flip flop on cycles.... Between having had enough and then accepting the scraps he gives you. You are holding yourself back from having a true authentic relationship with someone who is not only available, but honest and trustworthy. How many more years do you waste on vague promises of absolutely nothing?

 

Tully, your mention of us talking about NC to death made me LOL Because it's true. I don't think I fully explained the concept. As recently as this morning we were bracing each other... And then soon as he landed two texts :/

 

To a certain extent I think for us the talking in and of itself is doing. It's probably been our major source of joy in our A. It's where we started and finished. think we could probably exist on this alone.

 

 

 

Gettingstronger, you've always been a wise and compassionate voice for me. You're right, I do believe him. You're also right in that he now knows me so well he knows exactly what buttons to push.

 

But... I'm now at least wise enough to know that he knows. I have renewed hope... But also caution. I'm having a rare pragmatic moment and expecting the worst. But not feeling devastated by the prospect

 

What exactly has made you hopeful? I didn't see anything which showed a commitment to you... Only his wife. I'll admit, I'm completely confused as to why you think this is a good sign. All you've shown him is that he can keep doing exactly what he is doing and you will accept it.

[minimariah]

I have renewed hope... But also caution. I'm having a rare pragmatic moment and expecting the worst. But not feeling devastated by the prospect

 

this is important... be cautious. hopeful but cautious.

i'm going to be honest - i don't really like what your MM is doing. i understand him... oh, i understand him perfectly. it's a difficult situation for sure. but he's cakeeating... at first, he had a process & i believe he worked at getting himself detached from his W & his M BUT... eventually it became an excuse.

 

i think he went about the entire situation the wrong way. from your posts - he doesn't respect his W because he doesn't even see her as someone who is his equal, someone who is... well, an adult. he sees her as a child that needs to be taken care of and that kind of relationship is HIGHLY problematic + addicting. trust me when i say, it's nearly impossible to leave a relationship like that due to the HUGE amount of guilt. his idea of separation under one roof also wouldn't have worked - his W would be miserable + it would've burden him and he would become miserable himself and that would reflect on your relationship, basically.

 

in my opinion - if he went "bullseye" with the entire situation, meaning... if he told her straight up the truth, it would've been much better. his delay and avoidance... not good. he had a lot of time to get it over with, honestly.

 

he wanted to leave then BAM... he needed time. then BAM... he got a job so it messed with his process. then BAM... other sh*t came up... they say delay is the deadliest form of denial, you know? he kept waiting for the right moment and the truth is - there is no right moment.

 

like i said - i believe he really did try to slowly leave but it's that ending point where he keeps failing. he gets super close to the line and he can't cross it. and at the same time, he can't let you go.

 

my advice to you... go NC, for your own sake. you know you won't move on if you try being friends with this man... you just can't. how do you stay friends with someone you're madly in love with? you just can't. let him come to you if he really wants you. you move on with your life.

 

best of luck to you. there is just something so sweet and genuine about you (no creep lol). and you deserve better than this.

Edited April 10, 2015 by minimariah

[SolG]

Oh come on.... This is false. The reason why you had access to his accounts was because you wanted true monogamy and assurance that he was not carrying on a relationship with his wife as well. I've read your back posts. It's all there. You were monitoring all the conversations he had with his wife and would get angry and jealous if he was sweet or romantic with her. I remember. It was one of the most God awful things I read here... An OW monitoring conversations between her MM and wife to make sure she he was monogomous. You're rewriting.

 

Yes, what you write is true. It's also not entirely that simple. I wanted assurance that he was doing as he said he would, and that happened to include promises of monogamy. It's the former dimension that has always been more important to me. I never asked nor required him to leave his W. I never required divorce, or leaving the family home. None of those are things I needed at all. I just wanted truth and openness, and he said that he wanted that too and would deliver it in a certain way.

 

He told me he didn't love his W. Heck, he told his W he didn't love her! So it was incredibly jarring for me to see behaviour that did not accord with this assertion. If he'd have been able to admit that he did indeed love both his W and myself earlier, there may have been a different trajectory. I would never have expected him not to express such things if I knew he felt that way. And I know this was just as confusing for his W.

 

As a MOW, I don't know if you can relate to the components of an A that most hurt people like me. For me, it's not that he has a W or even that he loves her, it's the furtiveness, the isolation, the exclusion, the illegitimacy. Apparently some people thrive on the secrecy, but that is what makes it untenable for me.

 

Returning to an EA may seem incongruent with this. But I have never hidden the friendship component of our R from anyone at all. I truly now more than ever believe that we can step down from an EA to return to this footing. Yes, there will probably always be a component of if only things had turned out differently. But this is the way with all of my exes that remain friends; wistful nostalgia in no way predicates a return to what was! So this is in part where my hope springs from.

 

The other part of my hope comes from the fact he is actually going to reveal himself to his W (apart from the big omission that is the full extent of our A). If he truly shares his whole history, who he is, his dreams, hopes, passions and desires... It will fundamentally change the way they relate. It cannot possibly not. He seems to think that this renegotiaton may make it possible for me to be an open part of his life. Who knows. I certainly don't! So I'm not hanging my hat on it.

 

I'm actually feeling at peace now. It wasn't until yesterday that I realised how much the whole NC thing was weighing on me. I'm glad I've moved past that as such a pivotal focus, because it just doesn't fit with who I am. My focus now is that our old R is dead, we will now define a new way of relating that doesn't require secrecy on my part. I'm comfortable with that.

[SolG]

MM (I'm dispensing with the x given this is patently stlll active) is currently on a tropical island with his W and children for a family vacation. They are reconnecting as a unit after his protracted absence. We're still in contact every day. He exercises and we talk while he runs; about an hour a day, plus texts and emails in between.

 

He and his W agreed no discussion of their M until next month. They wanted to just have time with the kids as a family. But last night things got a little ahead of schedule for a variety of reasons.

 

She told him she understands that she has a maturing body and that he doesn't find her attractive. She said she understands that her low drive and other factors (since the beginning) were an issue for him as well. That she sees the beautiful girls on the beach in their bikinis where they are at the moment and accepts that that she'll never look that way. That she knows he watches porn and that she'll never feel compelled to be that risqué. She said she feels embarrassed about her body and that she can't imagine being naked with him. Especially given that they haven't has sex in over three years now. That she can't imagine him ever wanting her

 

He told her that he thinks she's beautiful inside and out and that sexual attraction is not the be all and end all as a measure of love. He told her he loves her and will never leave. He told her he has so much to tell her about himself and that some of it may be painful indeed. He held her hand while she cried. She said she's ready for his truth, as long as it involves never leaving and keeping the family intact.

 

Today... He took the kids for most of the day because his W had a migraine. A migraine due the stress of last nights conversation.

 

I'm at a loss. He was never attracted to her, yet loves her immensely. This was so before he even met me. Despite this, he has this sense of marital responsibility and love that makes no sense to me... But I do think he is absolutely right to stay. I truly believe she needs him. He's never going to be romantically or sexually attracted to her... But who's to say that's what's important anyway? They have history and family and their own brand of love.

 

She said if he leaves she'll just cease to exist on the relationship front. No one else will ever be considered and she will be single and celibate forever. She'll just do what he wants her to do and continue to coparent in whatever way he wants.

 

We are now really going NC. Because I can't... I just can't. We seriously want a polyamorous relationship. And we're behind the eight ball already because we've essentially started without his W's consent. And we know that she would absolutely allow it right now because her mindset is that retaining him is the only acceptable outcome no matter the compromise. But it's not fair to impose this on her in this way when she's so insecure and vulnerable.

 

I will not countenance entering a polyamourous relationship with MM and his W until he can convince me she is ready to explore the option in a meaningful way. Not from a position of financial or emotional insecurity and/or duress. He needs to help her in this respect.

 

She was a career woman before children, and her skills are sought after and an attractive commodity. I have no doubt she will do fine re-entering the workforce with MM's support. And she is younger than me! She can absolutley be fit and healthy and beautiful once she has the time to focus on herself again. MM is going to engage a personal trainer for her (something she has been loathe to do because of the expense even though MM earns an absolute motsa :/).

 

Now here's a point MM and I have debated extensively. I have said to him that I could NEVER feel secure with him if I did not feel that he desired me. He says his W has no such expectation because he has never desired her :/ I don't know what to think even though I've read their historic emails and know this is true to a certain extent. But my intuition as a woman says she will absolutely need this. Am I wrong? I don't know.

 

Right now I feel caught in a vortex of weirdness. I want him on my life. I also feel some empathetic sense of... Something... For his W. Like I want to drag her to the gym and dancing and tell her she's gorgeous.

 

But back to NC... I think it's a must now. He needs to sort his M right now. His W really needs him.

 

Here's the Catch 22. I've said to him that he stands a good chance of maybe getting to a point with his W where they finally truly know one another. And through this intimacy and connection they'll... Well, connect and actually be intimate. That they just might fall in love. He disputes any kind of outcome that doesn't involve me as an integral part of his life. But I don't think he even knows what he's saying.

 

This is what I think will happen. I think they just might have the marriage they should have had a long time ago if they'd been honest. I think they will fall in love. I think I'll be superfluous.

 

I think I need a drink...

[minimariah]

She said she's ready for his truth, as long as it involves never leaving and keeping the family intact.

 

She said if he leaves she'll just cease to exist on the relationship front. No one else will ever be considered and she will be single and celibate forever. She'll just do what he wants her to do and continue to coparent in whatever way he wants.

 

this is manipulation. now... i know how his W feels and my heart breaks for her (at the end of the day, i was a BW not that long ago) and it's clear she'll do ANYTHING to keep her family together but she's manipulating him & guilt tripping him into staying. she knows about the A, trust me - she knows he is seeing someone and she knows something is going on. she probably doesn't know how long & with who but... she knows, trust me. hence her even mentioning all of this and starting a conversation.

 

i do admire her for addressing all of this BUT what i don't admire is the guilt trip & manipulations - and that's exactly what she's doing.

 

He was never attracted to her, yet loves her immensely. This was so before he even met me.

 

He's never going to be romantically or sexually attracted to her... But who's to say that's what's important anyway?

 

he doesn't love her - what he feels is GUILT, imense guilt and sense of obligation. here is the thing - it's clear and we all know what kind of love should be between a husband and a wife. if one of the spouses doesn't feel that kind of love? they don't love their spouse - as simple as that. people kill me going out of their way to convice others AND themselves that they love their spouse (the same spouse they're cheating on + were never romantically or sexually attracted to) and then it turns out that they love them as "a parent of their kids" or "as a human being, a friend" - OF COURSE they love them that way. this gradation of love has to stop - you either love your spouse or you don't. no "parental, siblings, friendly" kind of love either.

 

the fact that he is staying with her proves nothing, let alone his love for her. i think his guilt over everything plays the biggest part + a habit of simply having her in his life. if he truly loved her (even as someone who is close to him)... he would've never hurted her like this. what he's doing to his W is super cruel, in my opinion.

 

it's like... imagine someone stabbed you in the back. and instead of pulling that knife out all at once, they're doing it slooooooowly... so slowly that the pain is much worse than it should be. that's what he is doing to his W.

 

for some strange reason... he thinks that, by slowly detaching himself from her will make things easier on her (?) and she will maybe detach from him, too & everything will end happily. for the life of me... i cannot imagine WHY he did it that way because dropping a bomb out of the blue & leaving hurts so much less... trust me.

 

ALSO - the fact that he entered a relationship & married someone he was NEVER attracted to? super major red flag. i understand when people get themselves in an A because they fell out of love with time or lost interest in their spouse but when they never felt the love & the attraction in the 1st place? uh - oh.

 

your dude f*cked up his entire LIFE and made some MAJOR life decisions based on nothing but his guilt. that's a major character flaw and if it's really true that he was NEVER attracted to her & in love with her - he should be in IC as soon as possible.

 

We seriously want a polyamorous relationship.

 

And we're behind the eight ball already because we've essentially started without his W's consent. And we know that she would absolutely allow it right now because her mindset is that retaining him is the only acceptable outcome no matter the compromise. But it's not fair to impose this on her in this way when she's so insecure and vulnerable.

 

you gotta understand one thing - you wouldn't have a polyamorous relationship even if his W knew & agreed to it.

 

polyamorous means romantic link & connection with more than one person and he doesn't have that with his W. he would have a mono relationship with YOU ONLY and his W accepting it.

 

in order to have a poly relationship - you gotta have ROMANTIC love for more than one person, that's not present in your triangle. that being said, that type of poly relationship would never work because his W would be absolutely miserable the entire time.

 

This is what I think will happen. I think they just might have the marriage they should have had a long time ago if they'd been honest. I think they will fall in love.

 

sweetie... if he didn't fall in love with her BY NOW? it ain't happening... not even in a million years, no matter what they change. trust. but he won't leave either and that's something you should focus on.

 

go full NC. the contact you're having with him is too much and at this point? he is heavily cakeeating. don't do that to yourself.

 

he could've divorced her 10 times by now but it's ALWAYS SOMETHING, you know? there is always a reason why he can't do it right at this point. after a while... it becomes draining.

 

the hardest is yet to come, i don't think you're aware of that. you can't avoid it, it will hurt (if you decide to break it off and go NC) and you'll feel like you're stuck in Dante's 9level hell. but you will move on and you will get over it. the brain & heart are strong machines and can take much more than you think.

Edited April 18, 2015 by minimariah

[minimariah]

you know... i believe all three of you are good folks, good hearts.

 

and i believe your MM loves you and wants to be with you. and i believe that... at one point he moved in that direction and did things to prove to you that something IS changing and that he IS doing stuff for your future together but... when he gets to that point, ending point? where he needs to do that one final step?

 

he can't do it. that's where he continues to fail. for some reason, he can do the preparations, process, detaching, plans... all of that but he just can't do one final, last step - the act of actually leaving.

 

why? guilt + guilttripping, manipulation by his W + fear of changing his entire life + kids. and there you have it.

 

i knew someone like that - dude even bought a house for him and his OW, a car... he had their entire future life planned, EVERYTHING. but he just couldn't move out of his family home. he couldn't ask for a divorce. he just couldn't do it.

 

eventually, the OW got pregnant and the W divorced him - they're now together and living happily. but for some reason? he couldn't leave. he explained it to me as some sort of unbearable paralysis every single time he was about to talk to his W and ask for a divorce. it's like... he was dreaming and it was all soooo good but when he actually got in front of his W and was about to tell her everything? silence.

[Blu72]

I can't even fathom any of this. I really think you are continuing to be a wedge to their healing especially given all the personal information he feels the need to drop on you about his wife (which I find appalling actually). It is NOT your place to help him fix himself, his wife, or his marriage. You need to stop being a wedge and end this. He is using you as a complete crutch in every way possible. And you are allowing it. His wife is a shell of a person and the fact you come here and regurgitate everything he has told you about their personal heart to heart conversation is telling. You need to do some of your own self evaluation instead of being all up in their business. Work on you and end this.

 

Actually when you really think about it, he is using you as his own personal therapist while engaging in an affair with you.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Blu72

[SolG]

Mini, he will NEVER divorce her. The why is quite complex. He comes from a very public, prominent, and successful family, and she was the first woman he ever trusted to love him as himself. He went through his teenage and formartive years not trusting anyone's motivations. Then his W came along. Virginal, trusting and nonjudgmental. He was never attracted to her... But that was frankly not important to him at the time. What was important was her wholehearted acceptance of him; not him as a member of his family.

 

Because of his distrust he had never slept with a girl. And she had never had sex because her family disposition was no sex before marriage. They lost their virginity to each other. She agreed because she thought they were to be forever. He tried to break up with her... But her distress was more than he could bear. He says to me that at that moment (way before they were engaged) he decided that he would always (to quote his MC submission) do right by her. He had 'ruined' her after all :/

 

Then they were married and had children. He talks about despite it all that once upon a time they had magic. That there was a time it seemed worth it for the companionship. He talked with their MC about the fact that he locked himself away and cried when they had sex for the first time because he was so disappointed. The MC said there are some things that are too hurtful to be shared. To focus on the fact that they liked one another.

 

I am only the second woman he has ever slept with. He has been hit on his entire life. Even by friends mothers in high school. He is just not capable of being trusting enough for a sexual relationship unless he truly believes he is safe... And there have only been two. His W... And me.

 

And the first time I raised the topic of his father.... Well, let's just say there was ice. He wanted to know how I knew and who has told me :/ And what my motivation was for raising it.

 

Then there's this weird dichotomy. When I first met him my impression was that he was a privileged ****. I thought he was a player. He's incredibly aloha. Unless Si,etching untoward happens, he will be CEO.

 

There always seemed to be a veritable harem of women circling around him. I didn't like him. To quote Dr Seuz... Not one little bit. Then I got to know him. And I respectd his work and he mine. Then we started laughng about the women. And arguing about work. That is our defining interaction. Me actually disagreeing and arguing passionately with him; not common in his experience.

 

I distinctly remember a time early on when we were away for work and definitely in an EA. I desperately wanted to make love... And he said he couldn't because he didn't have protection. The truth was he was terrified because he had never 'made love' before. Not to anyone besides his wife. This is also the point at which some other work colleagues noticed that we were getting close and told me that he NEVER cheats. His reputation was absolute fidelity.

 

But, eventually he did. And here we are.

 

He does love his W. And he does love me. I have absolutely no doubt regarding either of those statements. And he WILL NOT LEAVE HIS W. He totally believes to do so would be a gross abrogation of his responsibility. And on top of that... Children. He absolutely believes that to deny them a traditional nuclear family unit is to be derelict as a parent.

 

Here's a kicker... Apparently I'm now part of the responsibilty cycle. I now need his protection and oversight as well :/ Hence his polyamory bent right now. He feels all the people he is 'responsible' for need protection.

 

I don't even know what I'm trying to say anymore...