Reckoning

[Red123]

Have you told him you feel this way, or called him on it?

[Grapesofwrath]

Red: Yes, I have asked him about it, though not specific to Easter. He doesn't have an answer, really. Kind of brushes it aside.

[Ifalltopieces]

I wish I knew something to say. I've had many holidays come and go and it cuts like a knife. I'll be thinking of you....big hugs.

[minimariah]

Later this evening, he wants to come to my house to spend the night.

 

what excuse will he give to his family?

 

If one does not believe in the religious tenets, then why go to church?

 

because it's a tradition. a lot of folks do that - they go to church and celebrate holidays without really believing in any of it... it's a tradition, something that needs to be done... like a chore.

 

you act like you're Christian and do the things Christians do because it's easier to fit in, as simple as that.

[Grapesofwrath]

Mariah: He will tell them he has to travel to the city to be at work early. Same excuse he always gives.

[Grapesofwrath]

The part I'm trying to wrap my mind around is the lack of guilt or discomfort in the deception. I would imagine that, on this day, it would feel worse to do it, to the point of not being able to. I also think it's reckless, and this concerns me. He can be kind of reckless, and I've had to talk to him about this.

[minimariah]

also... the advice your counselor gave you (BTW - what kind of counselor is she? do you find her advice helpful or did you maybe think about seeking another opinion?) - i don't think it's all that bad. she could be speaking from her own personal experience that ended somewhat successfully, of course... but i don't think the advice is that bad. maybe she knows that you'll drag this affair much longer than needed if you just go straight NC when you're not ready.

 

i got her advice "let the story tell itself" meaning "let this A either die down it's natural death or evolve into a real relationship" - as in, let the time do it's thing. until you're ready to make some final moves.

[Red123]

Red: Yes, I have asked him about it, though not specific to Easter. He doesn't have an answer, really. Kind of brushes it aside.

 

I too am not a religious person, but I can see why you titled this hypocrisy. I have met a lot of people who preach their faith but don't live it, he may be one of those people. I'm not going to ask why you are having an affair with him, but if you are seeing so many things about him that make you question his character, why do you want him at all? I wonder what kind of a night you will have with him if this is your line of thinking today.

[minimariah]

The part I'm trying to wrap my mind around is the lack of guilt or discomfort in the deception. I would imagine that, on this day, it would feel worse to do it, to the point of not being able to. I also think it's reckless, and this concerns me. He can be kind of reckless, and I've had to talk to him about this.

 

many reasons. i doubt he's a sociopath/psychopath.

 

probably emotionally damaged on some level, a narcissist?

then again... who knows what is his marriage like. maybe he feels entitled to his A as his reward for everything he does for his family (i've heard this as an explanation, actually). maybe he doesn't love or feel anything towards his W anymore (this is highly possible; no matter what he says) so he doesn't feel like he's doing anyhing wrong because, well... what she doesn't know, won't hurt her (that kind of thinking). maybe he's just buried deep down in denial and thinks he can handle 2 separate lives without hurting anyone; he probably isn't even thinking about what his actions might result in.

 

in my personal experience, people are usually reckless and guiltless when they stop giving a damn. i've read how he said that he has a perfect family and that he loves his life a lot, blah, blah, blah... be SUPER careful with these types od person. this is the worst kind of denial.

[Grapesofwrath]

Mariah: She is a licensed counselor, and she comes from more of a supportive place than a psychoanalytic place. Meaning she is wonderful support--during my divorce she was a huge help to me--but I'm not sure how helpful she is when it's time to dig around in there and do the hard work. She is a very non-judgmental person, and I think her advice came from that place. I always get acceptance from her, and there was a time when that meant everything to me. (I felt like a pariah during my divorce.)

 

I think you make a good point that she may be encouraging me to examine my behaviors and how the A works in my life, as opposed to going NC because what I am doing is wrong or bad. She may know that going NC for that reason won't stick, and it will only stick if I do it because I'm really just done with him.

 

As for MM, I have spent too much mental energy trying to figure out what goes on in his marriage. He says it's all good, but I don't believe that people do what he's doing when "it's all good." You have some sound theories there, and you're probably right about a couple of them. But I think I have to stop trying to figure him out and instead try to figure me out.

[the_artist_1970]

Today is Easter Sunday. I was not raised Christian, so this day does not carry the same significance for me as it does for others, though I appreciate the importance it holds for many. MM is a regular church-goer, and he will be attending Easter services today with his family. Probably some family party this afternoon, as well. Later this evening, he wants to come to my house to spend the night.

 

While there are many things he does that demonstrate his flawed character, this somehow really hits a nerve. Even if Easter is not a religious day for me, it is for him and for his family. I know that men are supposed to be better at compartmentalization than women, but seriously? How does a person compartmentalize to such a degree that one can sit in church, in front of your family and your Lord, and profess to be one thing, then later that day turn around and violate nearly all of the tenets of those same institutions. If one does not believe in the religious tenets, then why go to church?

 

I know I shouldn't be surprised. It's just...I don't know. I think it's another log to add onto the fire of ending this situation.

 

I think the reason your MM doesn't show any guilt is because he knows that you are OK with him being M and sharing him with his W. He knows that you don't love yourself enough to kick him to the curb and open yourself up to find someone who will love you and only you. Why should he feel guilty when he can go to church, play the family man and come to your bed the same night? There is no reason for guilt because he knows it's OK with you.

[Grapesofwrath]

Artist: I didn't mean that he should show guilt toward me. I meant that he should feel more guilty about betraying his wife. He doesn't seem to struggle with that. In fact, he was available a few hours earlier than expected yesterday, and I had made other plans for the afternoon, so he had to wait for me. Some part of me thought he would cancel because of all this, but no.

[MJJean]

Artist: I didn't mean that he should show guilt toward me. I meant that he should feel more guilty about betraying his wife. He doesn't seem to struggle with that. In fact, he was available a few hours earlier than expected yesterday, and I had made other plans for the afternoon, so he had to wait for me. Some part of me thought he would cancel because of all this, but no.

 

He probably couldn't cancel. If his wife thought he was going in to work/working, well, he couldn't go home. So, he had nothing else to do but find a way to kill time and wait until you were free.

 

What faith is he? Maybe his religious beliefs are helping him with the affair in a twisted way. If he thinks he can go to Confession or talk to Jesus directly and confess his sins, he figures he's forgiven and can go right on sinning.

 

I consider men like your MM the most cruel and dangerous. They just do what they feel like doing with no concern for the damage they cause their families, friends, and their AP's.

 

And, believe me, friends and family other than the BS and kids do get hurt by affairs.

 

If this affair were discovered, his BW would be devastated. The kids whole world would come crashing down. His friends and family would be disappointed in him, wonder if they ever knew him at all and if their friendship was a lie, and they'd be much less likely to trust him. After all, if he is willing to betray his wife in such a deeply damaging way, why wouldn't he betray them, too?

 

But does he think of that? Does he think of the feelings of the people who are supposed to mean the most to him, the people he is supposed to cherish, care for, and protect? Does he think of the long term mental and emotional damage his actions would cause his wife, his family, and you should he be discovered?

 

No. He thinks of himself and what he wants. He doesn't want to think of the unpleasant consequences of his actions and weaknesses, so he doesn't. It's the people who love him that will have to cope with what he does, but that's not really his problem huh?

[Matilda75]

I agree with MJJean. I wouldn't expect MM in this case to be capable of effectively responding to the hurt and disruption that result when his affairs come to light.

 

You'll have to figure out how to heal without his support. He doesn't likely have the emotional maturity and selflessness necessary to put his needs aside and appropriately respond to yours. More likely he'll minimize, get defensive, and make it all about him.

 

Walking away will become easier once you see and accept him for what he really is. FWB is likely the full extent of his intimate skill set. Like church on Easter, he's just going thru the motions of his emotional relationships. Looking back you will pity this poor slob, and wonder what you ever saw in him.

[Grapesofwrath]

Thanks Matilda & MJJean. Reading those posts is really helpful. While walking to work this morning, I was imagining what it would be like if MM and I were ever together in a "legit" relationship. It hit me so hard that I could never, ever trust him. I could never feel secure. If he could betray his wife, with whom he claims to be very happy, in such a cruel way, there is surely nothing stopping him from doing the same to me when he meets someone "irresistible."

 

I also am starting to see that his unwillingness to leave his "happy life" that he "loves" is based on financial repercussions. He would stand to lose a lot, and those things are precious to him. More precious than the feelings of his wife and children, I'm starting to believe.

[Grapesofwrath]

depressed: I think he also uses this "I can't help myself" line as an excuse. It takes the responsibility off of his shoulders. He makes it sound like I'm such a tsunami of womanhood that no man can resist me, even the happily married ones. Believe me, lots of men can and have successfully resisted. It's just another way to not take ownership of his issues, sidestep the conflict, and avoid looking at himself.

[MJJean]

depressed: I think he also uses this "I can't help myself" line as an excuse. It takes the responsibility off of his shoulders. He makes it sound like I'm such a tsunami of womanhood that no man can resist me, even the happily married ones. Believe me, lots of men can and have successfully resisted. It's just another way to not take ownership of his issues, sidestep the conflict, and avoid looking at himself.

 

Yup. Claiming a woman is "irresistible" and saying they can't help themselves is a two-for. It absolves the men of any responsibility for their actions and makes the woman feel special, powerful, and more likely to begin or continue an affair.

 

If you go through the OM/OW threads and a lot of the infidelity threads you'll see patterns. Most guys engaging in affairs say the same thing to their OW. It seems every OW is irresistible and their soul mate right up until either the OW wants more or the BS finds out.

[Lunay]

This guy sounds like such a prize. I feel so incredibly sorry for his wife. I am sure she has that gut feeling, I am sure in the back of her mind she wonders.

 

I hope you kick him to the curb soon. You sound smart and like you have a good head on your shoulders. He doesn't deserve you, or his wife. I almost wish you'd tell her.

[Grapesofwrath]

After spending a lot of time together this past week, this morning we decided to end it. I woke up feeling lousy, after a restless night. While we were having fun and enjoying ourselves last night, we also talked a lot. During the conversation, he shared with me that when he met his wife, he was also dating 4 other women. He didn't want to stop dating any of them, although he knew that he wanted to marry his wife. He told me that he said to her, "this is what I'm doing. This is who I am. Don't try to change me, and I won't try to change you." All during their courtship, their engagement, and into the early years of their marriage, he continued to see these other women and was involved with them sexually. At some point in there, however, he ceased being honest with her about it.

 

It was like a little switch flipped inside me and I could see him more clearly than ever before. He maintained sexual relationships with 4 women, while also dating his now-wife, who he claims to have fallen in love with at first site (or at least that's what he's said in the past.) I was dumbstruck. He said she would call and ask what he was doing on a given night, and he would tell her he was seeing someone else that night and that if she wasn't okay with his doing that, then he would understand if she wanted to end it. This poor woman has been doing the pick-me dance for this guy for all these years! She has been getting chumped by him for years upon years. She "won" and he married her, but at what cost to her? It all disgusted me. I know I shouldn't be surprised by this, but even so it was like cold water in the face.

 

He also told me that early in their marriage, they used to run couples weekends for engaged couples to council them about what marriage is like and how to best prepare. OMFG. Seriously? You're the authority on how to prepare for marriage?

 

I didn't sleep, thinking all night about this whole relationship and staring at him, realizing what he is really all about. This morning, we started to talk. I told him how I felt like his toy, and that I deserve more than this. I asked him, again, why he is doing this if he is happy at home and he couldn't answer. At least this time he admitted that he tends to "gloss over things" and doesn't ask himself why he does things. I asked him what need I fill for him, if it's not just for sex and fun, and he said, "friendship. I love hanging out with you." I said, "you have a lot of other friends. You don't need me for friendship." To which he responded, "I don't have other friends. Not real friends, like you."

 

We agreed that it would be best to end it. He said over and over that he loves me and hates himself for hurting me. He knows he is being selfish where I am concerned, and that when he sees that hurt look on my face he "wants to throw up, I feel so bad about myself." He started to cry. I wasn't expecting that, as I have never seen him cry before or even get close. And when he said to me, "So I guess this is it. This is goodbye." He broke down, weeping, on my shoulder. My eyes remained dry.

 

I felt calm and solid, until after I got to work. Then it started to hurt. But writing this all out really helps remind me why I did that. Now I'm leaning on you all for support to make this stick. These boards have been wonderful for me, and I thank all of you for the community.

[lookingforclosure]

Stay strong

Cry when you want to cry...feel the pain

 

At least you were able to say goodbye and walk away, something I wasn't given the privilege. Struggling with closure on my own

[adna89]

Some men are serial cheaters but love their wife,he seems to be one of them

 

I think this is going to hurt you in the end so its best you stopped

[Grapesofwrath]

When I re-read this "when he met his wife, he was also dating 4 other women. He didn't want to stop dating any of them, although he knew that he wanted to marry his wife. He told me that he said to her, "this is what I'm doing. This is who I am. Don't try to change me, and I won't try to change you." All during their courtship, their engagement, and into the early years of their marriage, he continued to see these other women and was involved with them sexually. At some point in there, however, he ceased being honest with her about it." Something else suddenly dawned on me...

 

This is very much like what he did with me. Right out of the gate, he put the situation out there: "I'm not going to be monogamous with you. I'm going to keep doing what I want to do. If you're okay with that, then let's move forward. And if you're not, then you can go." This may seem like an "honest" approach to infidelity. No one is being deceived. (Until they are, of course.) But it just comes off as so arrogant.

[Gloria_Smellons]

 

when he sees that hurt look on my face he "wants to throw up, I feel so bad about myself." He started to cry.

 

Sounds like a selfish douche to me. Not 'I feel bad about how I've made you feel' or 'I feel bad about potentially blowing my wifes world apart', but he feels bad for himself. Not bad enough to stop doing it, or make any effort to change anything about himself though...

 

For what it's worth I think you've made the best decision for yourself.

 

Well done and good luck.

[Grapesofwrath]

Gloria: He will give lip service to the idea that he feels bad for hurting me or bringing a troubling situation into my life. He says he'll end it "out of love" for me, if that's what I want. but he NEVER mentions feeling bad about what he is doing/has done to his wife. I think that's messed up. If anyone deserves his loyalty and responsibility, it's her.

[Gloria_Smellons]

The only person this man loves is himself.