Reckoning

[whichwayisup]

Pteromom: Thanks for that cold water. You're right. That is the proper question. I don't know why it's so hard for me to do this. I am here, on this board, to get help figuring that out. I've already seen that I'm not alone.

 

I've already told myself that I'm better off alone than in this situation. I know there is no future here. And the more I spend time with MM, the more I begin to resent him and lose respect for him. Now that it's been several months, I see he is comfortable with the ongoing deception. So he's not someone I would want, under any circumstances.

 

Maybe I'm not miserable enough yet to make the break? How did others arrive at the point where they were ready to cut it and go no contact?

 

Do your pro con list, why stay, why go. Do another one, dig down deep ask yourself what it is that actually is preventing you from ending your affair. Is it fear? Fear of pain, fear of not having him in your life? Feeling the loss? Having to grieve and let go? Your A will end at some point, it's really a matter of when.

[Ronnie33]

Pteromom: Thanks for that cold water. You're right. That is the proper question. I don't know why it's so hard for me to do this. I am here, on this board, to get help figuring that out. I've already seen that I'm not alone.

 

I've already told myself that I'm better off alone than in this situation. I know there is no future here. And the more I spend time with MM, the more I begin to resent him and lose respect for him. Now that it's been several months, I see he is comfortable with the ongoing deception. So he's not someone I would want, under any circumstances.

 

Maybe I'm not miserable enough yet to make the break? How did others arrive at the point where they were ready to cut it and go no contact?

 

When you get sick of watching his life go on while yours isn't.

 

That's when you will get sick and end it.

[Grapesofwrath]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about the questions that all of you raise. Why do I stay? It's not because I don't think I'm worth more, or that I hope he will somehow decide to pick me or that I think what we're doing is okay.

 

When I look at myself honestly, I realize that I have healing to do and have issues with intimacy myself. Without going into exhaustive detail, my last relationship was highly abusive (emotionally, mentally and starting to become physically), and I extricated myself after much pain and anguish. Incredible pain. I don't ever want to experience pain like that again. I think I've chosen to enter into this relationship knowing that it can never go too far. It can never become something serious. It can never cause me that level of pain because we cannot be fully in each other's lives.

 

What it gives me is attention, adoration, affection, sex, and help. Unlike some A's that involve just a few hours here or there in hotels or secret corners, my MM spends the night at my house a couple nights a week when my kids are with their Dad. We do the things that "regular" couples do. Go to the grocery store, make dinner, eat out, fold laundry, cook for each other, etc. Hence his remark about my Adirondack chairs. (He brought over his power sander so he could refinish them for "us.")

 

So I'm not sure that this makes me any better than him. Maybe we are both just using each other, for different reasons.

[Grapesofwrath]

When you get sick of watching his life go on while yours isn't.

 

That's when you will get sick and end it.

 

That's the thing, Ronnie. My life is going on. I'm doing well at work. I'm raising great kids. I occasionally go out with other men, if I want to. I'm just not getting into anything serious with anyone else, though I could if I chose to. Lately, I think that won't happen unless I remove him from my life.

[Ifalltopieces]

My AP avoids conflict at all costs. He blames me for most uncomfortable issues and twists and turns pretty much everything I say.

 

If I ask questions about our future together he gets very defensive and turns it into me not trusting him and having faith in him. No matter what I say or do, I walk away feeling confused, angry and almost helpless in a way. I walk away feeling guilty and sorry yet I don't really know what for.

 

The whole thing toys with my mind and every emotion i have. For the longest time I have believed my AP is a narcissist. I'm no psychologist so I don't know. All I know is. I love him and most days I don't even know why.

 

One day I will wake up. Slowly but surely I can feel myself pulling away. He has even mentioned it. I guess it's a start. At this point, anything is a step in the right direction out of this mess. Sorry I turned your post into my rant....

[whichwayisup]

My AP avoids conflict at all costs. He blames me for most uncomfortable issues and twists and turns pretty much everything I say.

 

If I ask questions about our future together he gets very defensive and turns it into me not trusting him and having faith in him. No matter what I say or do, I walk away feeling confused, angry and almost helpless in a way. I walk away feeling guilty and sorry yet I don't really know what for.

 

The whole thing toys with my mind and every emotion i have. For the longest time I have believed my AP is a narcissist. I'm no psychologist so I don't know. All I know is. I love him and most days I don't even know why.

 

One day I will wake up. Slowly but surely I can feel myself pulling away. He has even mentioned it. I guess it's a start. At this point, anything is a step in the right direction out of this mess. Sorry I turned your post into my rant....

I hope you can figure out why you're putting up with this from an AP. You have NO obligations to him.

 

If he really is a narcissist, then you need to read up on them, seek counseling and learn how to get away from him otherwise this IS your life and it'll only get worse and worse as time goes on, you'll lose a piece of you every day until you're a shell of who you used to be before you met him.

 

Please start by detaching a bit. Rely on him less. Get counseling.

[Ifalltopieces]

Your right, I most definitely need counseling. I have every intention of getting it. I have also done some research on narcissists and it's quite frightening and disturbing. If he truly is a narcissist, I have cause to be very worried and it should he my motivation to run for the hills.

 

I often wonder what it is about me that brings out such bad in him? Am I so worthless i can only bring out the bad in people? Is there a chance he is the same way with others? Trying to understand it just hurts even more.

 

I know ive been pulling away. I'm starting to feel very infifferent about him. I know I'm not fully ready to walk away, but one day soon I will be. I can feel things changing.

[goodyblue]

Not a good idea to question sociopathy. Unless they have an official diagnosis it is just not fair. I do not like how much it is thrown around on LS. Nowhere else have I seen this.

[HtotheN]

 

One day I will wake up. Slowly but surely I can feel myself pulling away. He has even mentioned it. I guess it's a start. At this point, anything is a step in the right direction out of this mess. Sorry I turned your post into my rant....

 

That's the funny thing. While you are "all in" with the affair, he has all the power. But once you start to wise up and begin to pull away, his power lessens as yours increases. That's why they resort to whatever they need to do (ignore complaints, avoid discussions, twist everything you say, etc.) to keep you in it because most know that most APs will eventually realize that an affair is simply not enough.

[Grapesofwrath]

My AP avoids conflict at all costs. He blames me for most uncomfortable issues and twists and turns pretty much everything I say.

 

If I ask questions about our future together he gets very defensive and turns it into me not trusting him and having faith in him. No matter what I say or do, I walk away feeling confused, angry and almost helpless in a way. I walk away feeling guilty and sorry yet I don't really know what for.

 

The whole thing toys with my mind and every emotion i have. For the longest time I have believed my AP is a narcissist. I'm no psychologist so I don't know. All I know is. I love him and most days I don't even know why.

 

One day I will wake up. Slowly but surely I can feel myself pulling away. He has even mentioned it. I guess it's a start. At this point, anything is a step in the right direction out of this mess. Sorry I turned your post into my rant....

 

IF2P: Not sure if this means your AP is a narcissist, but he certainly is manipulative. I can easily see him having a similar reaction when his BS questions him about things, including the possibility that he's having an affair.

 

He reminds me of the abusive man that I was involved with before the A. I read a book during that time called "In Sheep's Clothing" that was really helpful for me in terms of understanding what I was feeling and why I needed to go no contact with this person. His ability to manipulate me and get me to question my own feelings and thoughts was masterful. At the end, I thought I was losing my mind. A Gaslighting genius. In my mind, he was a far more toxic person than my MM could ever be, despite that he was single and my MM is just that, an MM.

[Ifalltopieces]

Grapes,

 

Thanks for the insight and thanks for the suggestion on the book. I'm going to see about getting a copy of it. As for what you said about my AP being manipulative, he is SO manipulative.

 

I guess my question has always been this:

 

Did I make him this way or has he always been like this? So many questions...I doubt I will ever have all the answers.

[Grapesofwrath]

Grapes,

 

 

I guess my question has always been this:

 

Did I make him this way or has he always been like this? So many questions...I doubt I will ever have all the answers.

 

IF2P: You may not ever have all the answers, but I can give you one answer: He has always been like this. Always. He has treated every intimate relationship in his life this way. He starts out love-bombing you, showering you with adoration, charming you like no one has ever charmed you. Then it starts to change, and the facade falls away. Now you're dealing with the real him. It's excruciating to realize that the person you fell in love with never really existed.

[Ifalltopieces]

Grapes, it really stings to think that the man I have fallen so in love with is really a wolf in sheeps clothing. Truth is, until him, I nevER let any man get close to me. I kept huge walls guarded around my heart and when I met him, I fell hard. I must have ignored red flags....or maybe there wasn't any. Maybe he was just so good at what he does.

 

Your right about him. As hard as it is to admit, your right. I wonder what happened to him to make him behave the way he does but I guess at the end of the day it's not really my battle to fight. All I know is, for the past almost 2 years, I have convinced myself that I am so awful I bring out the worst in him. I have convinced myself that im not worthy of the good part of him. It helps to hear you say that it's not me. Nobody wants to carry that around with them.

 

I'm sorry I took over your post, thanks for your help

[Grapesofwrath]

IF2P: I'm glad you mentioned this issue in my post. Honestly, my relationship with this supremely disordered and downright cruel man was highly traumatic. It messed with my head, had me completely off balance, and caused me endless anxiety.

 

Try not to waste time figuring out his psychology and why he behaves the way he does. (though if you insist on unraveling this, start looking at the common threads of all his relationships. You'll see a pattern.) These are characterological issues that are just who he is. Don't make yourself nuts trying to figure out why. You don't cause it. You don't deserve it. You don't need it in your life.

[lookingforclosure]

IF2P: You may not ever have all the answers, but I can give you one answer: He has always been like this. Always. He has treated every intimate relationship in his life this way. He starts out love-bombing you, showering you with adoration, charming you like no one has ever charmed you. Then it starts to change, and the facade falls away. Now you're dealing with the real him. It's excruciating to realize that the person you fell in love with never really existed.

 

I am starting to realize this about my xMM...same protocol

Like you stated, the hardest part is realizing the person you fell in love with never existed.

[Grapesofwrath]

I am starting to realize this about my xMM...same protocol

Like you stated, the hardest part is realizing the person yout fell in love with never existed.

 

This unfortunate experience is what causes me to ask if my MM is a sociopath. I don't actually believe that he is one, but I do think that my ex-bf was possibly one. It's a horrible experience to be with someone like that. Makes you question your own judgement, senses, memories, feelings. It took me longer than it should have, but I ended it, finally.

 

MM is nothing like him, in terms of his behavior and demeanor. The one thing he does is cheat on his wife. I have a very hard time reconciling that fact with all the other fine qualities I see in him. And that puts me back in that place where I question my judgement and beliefs.

[Ifalltopieces]

Grapes,

 

In your opinion, how do you think my AP relationship is with his BS? If all of his relationships follow the same pattern, what is it like between them?

 

I saw a text one time, where she confessed her undying love for him and told him that he could basically do anything to her and she would always be there. In the text, she asked him why he hated her so bad. I asked him what he replied with and he claims he never responded. Thoughts?

 

In response to your post, I don't think your AP is a sociopath. I think he avoids difficult things that make him uncomfortable. When it comes to you, he enjoys being carefree. He doesn't want to discuss or deal with anything serious. Just my opinion. With the exception of him cheating, it sounds like you have a pretty good relationship....all things considered that is.

[Grapesofwrath]

Pieces: I think you stumbled across a valuable clue there. Your AP's BS is being abused and manipulated by him as well. He can do anything he wants with her and she'll always be there? What does this say about her boundaries and her self-respect? Manipulative people like this are great at destroying other people's boundaries, and it sounds like he has done so with her to the nth degree. They also prey on people who will question themselves before questioning the abuser.

 

And she asked why her husband hates her? That sounds very much to me like a woman who is being abused and manipulated by her husband. She sticks around for it, for whatever reason. Children? Finances? who knows, and it doesn't matter. He found in her a victim for his abuse, and she has essentially said to him, "I don't feel loved by you. In fact I feel hated by you. But it's okay, I'll stick around for anything." This is a very unhealthy situation, and you would be much better off getting a far distance from it. If your A is discovered, this could become very unstable and unsafe for you.

 

I agree that my AP is not a sociopath. I also agree with your assessment, and I think he's someone who doesn't spend a lot of time on deep introspection. He isn't really interested in looking at himself and figuring out why he's doing what he's doing. When I question him or ask him to examine that, he has no answers other than, "I can't help myself." "I'm in love with you." "You make me happy." "You are a gift to me." In his way, he takes care of me. He's generous. That's what makes the situation confusing. He treats me with kindness, warmth, love, affection and generosity when we're together. Very protective. Always trying to help me out. He removes his wedding ring when he stays with me because he doesn't want the site of it to upset me. We go out with my friends, and they think he's my boyfriend.

 

He says it will end when I find someone who can take care of me better than he can.

[Doublegold]

Best to examine one's own psyche then select labels for others. After all, it is best to know oneself, isn't it?

 

To thine own self be true.....

 

This above all: to thine own self be true,

And it must follow, as the night the day,

Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!

 

Shakespeare...of course

[Lurkeraspect]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about the questions that all of you raise. Why do I stay? It's not because I don't think I'm worth more, or that I hope he will somehow decide to pick me or that I think what we're doing is okay.

 

When I look at myself honestly, I realize that I have healing to do and have issues with intimacy myself. Without going into exhaustive detail, my last relationship was highly abusive (emotionally, mentally and starting to become physically), and I extricated myself after much pain and anguish. Incredible pain. I don't ever want to experience pain like that again. I think I've chosen to enter into this relationship knowing that it can never go too far. It can never become something serious. It can never cause me that level of pain because we cannot be fully in each other's lives.

 

What it gives me is attention, adoration, affection, sex, and help. Unlike some A's that involve just a few hours here or there in hotels or secret corners, my MM spends the night at my house a couple nights a week when my kids are with their Dad. We do the things that "regular" couples do. Go to the grocery store, make dinner, eat out, fold laundry, cook for each other, etc. Hence his remark about my Adirondack chairs. (He brought over his power sander so he could refinish them for "us.")

 

So I'm not sure that this makes me any better than him. Maybe we are both just using each other, for different reasons.

 

I'm no psychiatrist, but I really believe this post speaks volumes. I think there is a part of you that feels you're worth no more than being this mans scraps, not worth a relationship with a man who values and adores you. So you've created just that truth in your life, talking yourself into believing "he loves you", when he clearly only loves himself. I also think you're conflict avoidant. You admit to having intimacy issues due to your past abusive relationship, admit you "have healing to do," yet, aren't in any sort of counseling to deal with your past abuse and low self esteem.

 

Who knows if this MM is any of the labels being thrown around here. I tend to agree with the others who say he's just good at what he does, and you're lapping it up and turning it into something loving and meaningful.

 

I hope you'll get to a place where you realize that you're worth more than being used and getting sloppy seconds from a Skeevy MM.

[Grapesofwrath]

You admit to having intimacy issues due to your past abusive relationship, admit you "have healing to do," yet, aren't in any sort of counseling to deal with your past abuse and low self esteem.

 

You are assuming that I'm not in counseling, which is an incorrect assumption.

[Lurkeraspect]

You are assuming that I'm not in counseling, which is an incorrect assumption.

 

That's great news! Perhaps they can shed some light on this relationship. Have you shared this with them?

 

ETA: I just read on your previous thread that your counselor thinks this affair should just play out. Horrible advice I think. You do sound like you're getting tired of the whole thing and don't buy into his words. He's also a serial cheater so had/has all his moves down. Men like this make me ill.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Lurkeraspect

[Grapesofwrath]

Yes, my counselor is aware of the relationship. As you read, she "invites me to join her in not judging me." She's a lovely woman, and has supported me through some tough times, but I'm not sure I agree with her this time. (I also sometimes get the feeling that she met her husband and started getting involved with him while he was still married. Just a hunch.)

 

I've started reading some of the threads on the Infidelity boards. This helps me a lot to get a clear picture of the pain I am causing his wife. Never met her. Don't know her. I don't think she realizes the kind of man she is married to. Even if she never finds out about this affair, she must feel it on some level.

[Lurkeraspect]

Empathy is a wonderful quality, and you've certainly got it.

 

You come across as a strong woman and I really don't think you're not going to continue with this man. I've never been the OW or a BS but it must be soul crushing on all sides. Well, except for the MM, he seems to get exactly what he wants, doesn't he? A girlfriend on the side to have some extramarital fun with, who strokes his ego, is nothing but fun, no responsibility, doesn't demand much, always ready and available. And a wife, who takes care of the home and the kids, gives him a safe place to come home to, once his fun is over. It's truly a win-win for him.

 

I'll say it again...men like this guy make me sick.

[Grapesofwrath]

Today is Easter Sunday. I was not raised Christian, so this day does not carry the same significance for me as it does for others, though I appreciate the importance it holds for many. MM is a regular church-goer, and he will be attending Easter services today with his family. Probably some family party this afternoon, as well. Later this evening, he wants to come to my house to spend the night.

 

While there are many things he does that demonstrate his flawed character, this somehow really hits a nerve. Even if Easter is not a religious day for me, it is for him and for his family. I know that men are supposed to be better at compartmentalization than women, but seriously? How does a person compartmentalize to such a degree that one can sit in church, in front of your family and your Lord, and profess to be one thing, then later that day turn around and violate nearly all of the tenets of those same institutions. If one does not believe in the religious tenets, then why go to church?

 

I know I shouldn't be surprised. It's just...I don't know. I think it's another log to add onto the fire of ending this situation.