He denies EA

[EndoftheRope2]

I posted recently in separation/divorce, but this forum seems more appropriate for this part of it.

 

About 4 years ago, I accidentally found that H had a very active e-mail account he'd never told me about, full of e-mails from a female 'friend' (just a friend of course) I'd never heard about. (While packing to move later, I found years worth of Christmas and birthday cards from this same 'just a friend,' including a rather sexually suggestive one.) He got very agitated when I originally saw the e-mail account and asked questions. He agreed to open it up again and let me see what was in it-- but only after he'd had 10 minutes alone with it. Honestly, I wasn't even suspicious until he got so agitated. After a year or so of my sarcastic comments about 'secret e-mails,' he told me he got rid of it for the sake of our marriage. I trusted him.

 

Just about a year ago, I once again stumbled across him reading in another e-mail account he'd never told me about, and had once again been very careful never to open in my presence. A few weeks ago, I managed to get the password to this account. Most of what was there was indeed harmless, but once again, he's having e-mails from a young woman he works with (a different one). In one exchange, she asks if he's working, and he replies, "I'm already here, baby" with a big smile emoticon. In another, she sends a 'forward' type e-mail in which you answer the questions about the person who sent it to you. His answers include that his first thought on meeting her was, 'she's cute,' on whether she's a rule-follower or rebel, "With a REBEL YELL, she cried more more more," what his favorite memory of her is, and that he thinks her favorite thing is hanging out drunk with the security guards (of whom, he is one). Her responses include that she thinks his favorite thing is "visiting her at her desk :)"

 

On top of this, he was using yet another woman's name (another friend who was SUCH a good friend I'd rarely heard about her, although I heard plenty about his male friends and the older women he worked with.)

 

He admits he wouldn't have written some of that if he'd known I would ever see the e-mail; yet he also insists there was nothing flirtatious about it and that it's all drivel. He insists he used another woman's name as his password because it was an easy word to remember, no more. (I say, so is his mother's maiden name.)

 

I have pointed out to him that these are classic signs of an 'emotional affair,' having e-mail accounts he keeps hidden from me (even now, he checks this account ONLY from work or when I'm out of the house; he's VERY careful not to open it in front of me) and having these friendships he never mentions to me. I've pointed out to him that I'm always opening my e-mail in front of him, that he's always known I had it, that even the few male friends I get occasional e-mails from are people he knows ALL about-- in short, there is not one single person e-mailing me who would surprise him.

 

I read a bit of "Emotional Affairs" by M. Gary Neumann today, and am reassured that I am not crazy, as H would like me to think. H sends e-mails back and forth with this other woman, but not with me. He's telling another woman he thinks she's 'cute,' but not me. He hid this 'friendship' from me. He was using another woman's name, not anything to do with me, as his password. I have no doubt it's an emotional affair.

 

But I know at this point, he won't admit it. We've just come back from a Retrouvaille weekend (sort of a marriage encounter for troubled marriages) which had it's good points, and we had some good talks. But this is a serious issue for me. He said on our weekend he'd get rid of the e-mail, but I'd already told him weeks ago that if Kelly's e-mails are so harmless, they can come to our joint account, and that isn't happening. (Raise your hand if you're surprised.) He told me Monday (after our weekend) that he doesn't check this secret e-mail at home because it's just drivel, but as soon as I went up to take a nap on Monday, he raced to the computer to check his 'drivel.' I don't believe for a minute that he'll get rid of it.

 

So I guess my questions are: how likely is it that he really believes himself that this is harmless? And, where is there to go from here if he won't even admit that this is a problem? Is there any way to make him see that this is harmful to our marriage and really is WRONG? Should I be trying to find out what needs of his she's meeting? Should I trust Retrouvaille that if I just keep explaining my feelings to him, he'll come around?

 

I've considered sending myself fake e-mails from men, similar in nature, and letting him stumble across them so he can see how it looks from the other side. I've considered refusing to sleep in our bedroom till this is resolved (although since he's lied to me before about deleting an account, I'm not sure how I'd trust him again on that.) I've considered buying M. Gary Neumann's book and letting him read it for himself (maybe he'd believe a third party?) or sending him some of the information I'm reading on the internet. But I honestly think he'd only get angry and defensive. I think any of these things would only make him angry. Is there any other way?

 

Another aspect of this is that I noticed months ago that we never have sex anymore unless I initiate it. He says he thinks he's developing sexual dysfunction and can't get it up; I have a hard time (no pun intended) believing this, because when I make the moves, he gets aroused very quickly with no apparent problem. We talked about this on our weekend; I told him exactly how rejected and hurt this makes me feel, and that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, that there are plenty of other intimate things in between those two. Still, since I told him that, we've had three more nights in which he's put his arm around me at night, but done absolutely nothing sexual, not even kissing.

 

So another question is: how likely is it that he's legitimately concerned about sexual dysfunction? Maybe the men can tell me if a man who thinks he can't do it, can do it so effortlessly when I start things? Or is it more likely he's getting it somewhere else? He used to have a serious punctuality problem, but is now home from work within an hour or less of when he should be, and usually has some groceries or a full gas tank to show for the extra time, so I'm not sure when he'd actually have the time to have a physical affair.

[JadeStar]

Basically everything hes telling you, is to justify it. Telling you its harmless and drival, thats bullsh*t! I do think trust can be rebuilt but the question is are you willing to do that?

 

 

 

Jade

[tiki]

Okay...you're way more patient than I. I'da done kicked him in the face. It definitely sounds like an affair.

 

Marriage counseling. You guys need it BAD. If you're gonna make this work.

 

What is his problem? I'd sit down and have a serious heart-to-heart. I wouldn't tolerate this BS WHATSOEVER.

 

Do you guys have kids together?

[LucreziaBorgia]

He may be reluctant to give up his flirtations, because in his mind he feels if he does - then there will be nothing equally satisfying in that area to take its place. Its all in his perception of you: what you represent to him, and what he sees is missing that makes him feel he has to seek it out elsewhere. I expect these girls "crushes" - fun, carefree flirtations, sexual tension, excitement, attraction, newness - while you represent "love" - obligation, sameness, sexual monotony, attraction as an obligation, 'real life', etc... He may feel that you don't make him feel attractive and wanted in the same way that these 'flirt girls' do.

 

I'm not saying you are all these things - you may be an exciting, vital woman full of life and love, and show him in many ways how you are attracted to and want him... but - if your husband doesn't see it that way, then he will continue what he's doing in an effort to fill those perceived gaps in your relationship. Its all about his perception in this case - and you'll need to find out exactly where you and these other women lie in those perceptions. You'll need to pinpoint why he apparently needs these flirtations, and why he is so resentful at the idea of having them taken away from him.

 

If you can get to the bottom of that, then you can begin trying to help him see that the deficiencies don't lie in you or your relationship: they lie in him: how he sees you and the relationship. Can that be changed? Sure. It just takes patience, understanding, a VERY open mind, and a willingness to put aside hurt and anger to uncover the harsh truths that are underlying in relationship problems.

 

He knows that what he is doing is painful to you, and damaging to the marriage. I expect he feels bad about it, and is struggling with the motivations that cause him to choose that behavior. He continues to do it, because stopping the affairs cures an immediate problem - but it doesn't eradicate the underlying motivations that lead him into the affairs in the first place.

 

Hopefully you and he can work this out in marriage counseling - find out what it is in his perceptions that causes him to do this, and try to find strategies to change those perceptions.

[Cecelius]

I like Lucrezia's analysis of him.

 

You need to very gently and very clearly get his attention, that unless this gets worked out to your satisfaction via counselling, you're done. I would suggest that you let him know you have no intention of continuing in the marriage unless this gets worked out.

 

I think these are mild little head fantasies, at this point. They can, and do, lead to more things though.

[RecordProducer]

This is not an emotional affair. He needs sexual excitement in his life. Hence the fear of sexual dysfunction. There's nothing truly bad going on, but this might lead to cheating. He's hiding the account because he flirts and it's not as terrible as a deed as it is as a consequence of a marriage crisis.

Give him the excitement! Show him that other guys are interested in you and you in them. But don't do it merely to spite him. Men like women who are taken and popular. Get other guys to tell you how cute you are. Work on your looks, buy new clothes and make-up. Wouldn't it be fun to feel alive again? Your husband will like to fight for you. He's become too comfortable with the marriage and has taken you for granted. Start slipping away from his hands!

[sylviaguardian]

I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. I don't want to scare you but I would take this very seriously indeed. Flirting with these women and hiding from you is a very bad sign - it's means that his boundaries are very different to you. The fact that you found out about the first one and then he went on to do the same again shows that he does not appreciate how much he is hurting you.

 

There are such things as emotional affairs and in some cases they are innocent, in other cases not. I first posted on this board in September last year to ask about my H's 'emotional affair' which he totally denied to begin with. Like you, I had never heard about this 'great friend' at the office and I found out that they were texting regularly without me knowing. Later I snooped into his e-mails and found an e-mail with a suggestive ending. It has taken 9 months for him to admit that this was a sexual affair too. My H never came home late from work either - he was doing it all in his lunch hour!

 

I am not saying that this is happening here but what is happening is that your H is signally that he is 'available'. That might end in harmless flirting or something worse. The problem is his understanding of the relationship that he is in. I can't offer any specific advice I'm afraid, other than trust your instincts. My H and I went to a counsellor (once) before he had admitted the truth to me and it was a waste of time because we were trying to fix a problem that I wasn't even aware of. It sounds like you need to find out a bit more about what is going on here first.

 

Try not to obsess about things and take time for yourself. But you need to make clear to your H that his behaviour is not on!

 

Syl

[EndoftheRope2]

Tiki-- yes, we do have children together. I'm pregnant with #9. A very strong incentive to make this marriage work. I currently work 4 afternoons a week which cuts into my time with the kids more than enough and costs him too much sleep (he works nights) and if I divorce him, I will have to work more than that to make ends meet. A serious consideration. I'm wondering if I can make myself think of him as just a roommate/provider.

 

And just in case anyone wonders, my being pregnant, even with twins, has NEVER been a turn off to him before, so that doesn't explain the lack of interest in sex. I am 36, look younger, and am in good shape despite 8 pregnancies. He takes my picture and the kids' pictures to work, and apparently is quite proud of me there (from what HE says) because he shows it off and reports to me that no one can believe I have given birth to 8 kids. I hope this doesn't come off as egotistic-- I'm just saying both that he is quite open at work about having a wife and family (and one of Kelly's answers in the e-mail proves that, so he's not lying about that), and that I have not gotten so out of shape from pregnancy and kids as to be a physical turn off to him, as a reason why he's suddenly (?) not interested in sex.

 

Lucrezia, I think you're right in many/all respects. I did find in his e-mail account some e-mails from an organization about depression. We recently made a cross country move to be near my family, and this was entirely a sacrifice on his part. He was quite happy where we were and is now working in a more difficult situation for less pay, and our bills have gone up (we're now in a metro area.) He is very outgoing and funny, but feels he has no close friends at all. Of course, the other 'women' were before we moved, but he is not a person with lots of interests, whereas I have many, and from some marriage problems we had years ago, I know that then he blamed me for his unhappiness, rather than going out and pursuing things he wanted. He's quite talented with accents, for example, and should be doing voice overs, etc., has even taken some classes and such, but doesn't make a serious effort. Anyway, all of that does fit with what you said about wanting the admiration and attention from these women. I do wonder, though, if admiration and attention from 'just' his wife would entirely fill that need for him.

 

If you can get to the bottom of that, then you can begin trying to help him see that the deficiencies don't lie in you or your relationship: they lie in him: how he sees you and the relationship. Can that be changed? Sure. It just takes patience, understanding, a VERY open mind, and a willingness to put aside hurt and anger to uncover the harsh truths that are underlying in relationship problems.

 

Any idea HOW to get him to see these things? He rejects what I tell him. In January we had a big fight, and his answer to everything I'm upset about was that I'm 'pregnant and hormonal,' rather than that there could actually BE any problems. From past experience, I just don't see leaving books, articles, etc. in his path, or sending him e-mails of what I'm finding, to be of any use. We missed the first Retrouvaille follow-up this weekend because he was too tired from work. We haven't done any of the follow up questions/ dialogue we were supposed to because he hasn't made the effort, and I am really sick of always being the one to push the boulder up the hill. Especially when he won't even re-direct this young girl to our joint e-mail account. His sister, years ago, backed him up in this notion that all his unhappiness is my fault, and that I'm 'controlling.' I think since then he's somehow got it in his head that any compromise, any listening to my side of things, is giving in to me and 'being controlled.' Hence, the more I say, the worse off we are. And saying nothing obviously doesn't help.

 

Anyway, I think I understand many things about why he does this-- and more clearly, thanks to some words of wisdom here-- but what good is that if he won't even admit it's a problem?

 

Cecelius, we went to Retrouvaille because I told him I am on the brink of filing for divorce. I do believe he went with sincere intentions-- for him to open up and talk about his feelings at all is a huge step for him. But I don't know if it's enough. He says he wants to save this marriage, but so far hasn't/won't move this girl to our joint e-mail. I moved to the couch for a week and he didn't like that at all. He was very specific about not wanting to live like that. (Ironic, since he wasn't doing anything with the time in bed, anyway. What should I make of that?) I'm not sure I see any way left of letting him know I won't tolerate this, short of 1) moving permanently to the couch till there are changes and 2) actually filing for divorce, which would be financially and emotionally devastating. I haven't ruled it out, but obviously I don't want it to come to that point.

 

My H never came home late from work either - he was doing it all in his lunch hour!

Interesting. As security, he has had to write up two housecleaners who got caught 'cleaning' a dark room in an unused wing of the hospital. He has just been telling me about a new female security guard who's already left the hospital amid rumors of sleeping with married men. And once he finally admitted Kelly exists, he said she, too, has a reputation for sleeping around, including with married men, that some of the men he works with have made pretty crude comments about her habits, and H's take on it is that she seems like such a nice girl, he can't believe she's the slut she's being called, and it really hurts him that people think that of her. Hmmm.

 

I did warn him that if SHE thinks his favorite thing in the world is "visiting her at her desk " and she has this reputation, others might also think visiting her is his favorite thing, and he might be grist for the rumor mills, regardless of how innocent it all supposedly is. I do wonder if his shock and head-shaking at the goings on aren't a case of protesting too much. I don't even know what kind of a lunch hour he gets. Every once in awhile he just says he was so busy he didn't get one at all.

 

Record Producer, where do I find these men! I teach music lessons; the closest I get to admiring men is about 9 years old lol! Our neighbors are generally quite a bit older than us, and I'd sort of feel like I was leading them on and using them, anyway.

 

I guess my final question, sort of repetitious, is: short of actually filing for divorce, which I haven't ruled out, what other steps can I take before that to make it clear to him I won't accept this? And is there anything I can say or do so that he will take responsibility for his own actions and see this for what it is, rather than feel resentful that he 'had to' get rid of this flirtatious friendship due to a 'controlling' wife?

[EndoftheRope2]

Sylvia, can you tell me was it just one e-mail with a suggestive ending? Did the others appear innocent enough?

 

It took me two weeks, but I got back into his account last night and there are three more e-mails from her. All three are group e-mails-- one warning everyone that some nut sent her 'outrageous' e-mails and asking everyone to watch out for them, and two e-mails sent out to groups, not just him, but they're the touchy-feely kind of e-mail ending with things like "The thought of you brightens my day." There is no sign that he has sent her anything at all (although she is in his address book) but he has his options set not to automatically save what he sends, so there would be no record.

 

Of course I'm relieved that there are no "real" e-mails between them, but I still feel if it were all on the up and up, he would have re-directed her to our joint account when it's obviously a problem.

[sylviaguardian]

EOTR,

 

It was just the one e-mail. All the other ones I found were about work and there was nothing strange about them. It was just the fact that the 'one' e-mail was so strange (i.e. just not what you'd normally write to a colleague) that I kept going until I got the truth. Obviously, not all the clues are in the e-mails as they had plenty of opportunity to say what they wanted in person LOL. If his e-mail is not set to save sent messages, I would set it to that without telling him.

 

Syl

 

Originally posted by EndoftheRope2

Sylvia, can you tell me was it just one e-mail with a suggestive ending? Did the others appear innocent enough?

 

It took me two weeks, but I got back into his account last night and there are three more e-mails from her. All three are group e-mails-- one warning everyone that some nut sent her 'outrageous' e-mails and asking everyone to watch out for them, and two e-mails sent out to groups, not just him, but they're the touchy-feely kind of e-mail ending with things like "The thought of you brightens my day." There is no sign that he has sent her anything at all (although she is in his address book) but he has his options set not to automatically save what he sends, so there would be no record.

 

Of course I'm relieved that there are no "real" e-mails between them, but I still feel if it were all on the up and up, he would have re-directed her to our joint account when it's obviously a problem.

[EndoftheRope]

If his e-mail is not set to save sent messages, I would set it to that without telling him.

 

He has just one sent message saved, but if he ever goes back to look at that one, he'll notice that his settings have been changed. I don't want him having any reason at all to guess I'm back in his e-mail. I'm not sure I'll manage it a third time; or he'll just set up a new account again. (For all I know he already has.) I have considered that maybe I could just delete the saved sent mails as soon as I read them, but then either they'd be in the trash which he might notice, or I'd have to routinely empty his trash, which he also might notice.

 

What other kind of digging did you do? I do look through his pockets, work bag, and drawers on occasion and there's never anything at all there, which is a good thing-- although he has always been a firm believer in never writing anything down. He does tend to take cash out of the bank in small bits and pieces. He pays the phone bill so I rarely look at it, but when I do, there's never anything suspicious there. All of which makes it seem that this is just a man getting an ego boost from other women's attention. I know it could be a lot worse, but I also know he'd have a fit if I were having these types of e-mails from a man he'd never heard of, and I know given the right circumstances it IS exactly what leads to more.

 

And, as you say, the e-mails don't give me a clue as to what is being said in person-- in all these "visits at her desk :)" or what her 'too many' favorite memories of him could be. (She did say, in answer to whether he's a rebel or rule-follower that since she only sees him at work, a rule-follower, so apparently he hasn't broken THAT rule yet.) And I still know just enough to know that he DOES lie to me and cover up.

[Ladyjane14]

I think Lucrezia has hit the nail on the head in regards to why your husband is continuing to flirt with other women. It strokes his ego, and makes him feel good. There is actually a chemical reaction going on in his brain when that happens...so, it's difficult to give him incentive to stop.

 

I think what you have to do here is really get into his head. You have to understand the male mind. It's like the "final frontier", so prepare yourself for the strange and unusual!

 

Originally posted by EndoftheRope2

I think since then he's somehow got it in his head that any compromise, any listening to my side of things, is giving in to me and 'being controlled.' Hence, the more I say, the worse off we are.

 

The first thing you can do is to STOP giving him any reason to believe that you are "controlling" him. That's a difficult thing, when you're insecure in the relationship and you want so desperately to repair it. It's very difficult to stand by, just waiting and hoping that he'll make the right choices....but that's not really what you're doing. In actuality, you ARE doing something....you're rebuilding trust.

 

So, unless you have a pretty good reason to suspect that his friendship with his co-worker has crossed over into inappropriate behavior, don't involve yourself in it. Showing your insecurity undermines your efforts by putting you into an adversarial postion.

 

That said, you have a choice to make about continuing to do some reconnaisance. He has given you cause to feel threatened. It's only natural that you would feel compelled to act on that. But should you?

 

On the one hand, it will make you feel infinately better each time you come up empty-handed. Remember, flirty-talk is just that. It's upsetting for you certainly, but it's nothing that you're not expecting to find under the circumstances.

 

Cell-phone detail records can be checked on-line usually. And when that fails, you can request them from the company. Also, there are lots of keyloggers on the market. Some don't even run on your computer. There are some disguised as a "new" keyboard, and some that attach to the cables.

 

If you elect to do this....it's important not to get busted. And if you feel that it will cause you more upset, than comfort....it's better not to do it at all.

 

Because....on the other hand, what you need to be doing MOST right now is rebuilding trust and friendship. Spying on him is not conducive to that. So you can see it's a difficult choice to make.

 

If you're getting upset by whatever you uncover...you can't really throw yourself enthusiastically into repairing the relationship. And if you get busted spying....you're undermining the trust you were attempting to build.

 

It's not difficult really to understand what a man is getting out of ego-building female attention. In this regard "the final frontier" is not quite so alien and unfamiliar. They get the same ego boost that women get when a handsome man notices us. The thing that is actually surprising is that usually, we women don't really notice when our man's self-esteem is lagging.

 

Men don't readily admit that their vanity is suffering. They might make a few wise-cracks about hair-loss, or spare tires...but they aren't sharing the way they really feel about that....which is similar to the way we feel when we're worried about our own attractiveness.

 

Also, much the same way that women feel trapped in our roles as wife, mother, daughter, etc.....he feels trapped in his. Unfortunately, rather than sharing that in terms you can understand and identify with, it usually comes out something to the effect of, "All I am around here is a paycheck to you people!". (At which point, he'll usually bring up every grievance he EVER had with you, followed by a impressively immature display of stomping out of the house to mow the yard or some other such nonsense. )

 

See, it's not that his emotions aren't similar...it's more that he doesn't communicate them with the "universal transmitter". The good news is that our men usually do tell us what we need to know...we just have to adjust the receiver.

 

A good method to accomplish that is Listen, Repeat, and Rephrase. And you keep doing it until you're satisfied that you have the message correct. JMargel has a link on his signature line where he posts about that if memory serves, so you might want to check it out.

 

Now, I'm not going to go out on a limb and tell you that you have absolutely nothing to worry about, or that he's not in any way cheating. But what I can tell you is that there is NOTHING you can do about it if he makes the decision to do that. You can't follow him around 24/7 making certain that he's being faithful. He'll either do it or he won't. You can't control his actual behavior for him. He must do that for himself.

 

What you can do is to repair your side of the relationship. This is an action that you can control. It's difficult when you already have soooo many responsibilities in a large family, but you'll need to find ways to spend time together as a couple. Not just a date night where you're spending quality time, but quantity time as well. It's important that he can see you as his best friend again, which you can't do when you're not spending time with him.

 

Talking face-to-face for 15 minutes each night, or interacting together over a game of cards are simple things to do. And you BOTH end up feeling prioritized when you're getting undivided attention from the other person.

 

When you're prioritizing each others needs as if they were your own, you can't help but feel special to each other.

 

For example, he's concerned about his "weenie" problem. What would you do if it was your problem? What you're doing right now is assuming that he's stretching the truth, and wondering if he's just not sexually aroused by you. But how might he feel if there really is cause for concern? He'd only see you as making it all about yourself when he's REALLY worried about his weenie!

 

You can take the guess-work out of it by taking him at his word, as a partner rather than an adversary. Make him a doctor's appointment, talk about his feelings in regards to it....whatever you'd want for yourself if it was your problem. But you can see how much better you'd feel if YOU were getting that kind of attention, so why not just give it to him? Give it as a gift, expecting nothing in return....just because you love him.

 

In regards to actively engaging in marriage-building. Don't put any more pressure on him. Just do your thing. Let him know that you're working on being a better partner....and then be the BEST that you can be.

 

He'll respond to that eventually. And when he finally does, you'll be in a position to get more of what YOU want.

 

Anyway, this post is getting really long. But there is ALOT that you can do to improve your situation on your own. And with so much at stake, you have nothing to lose by giving your marriage your absolute best effort.

 

It's asking alot of someone to be the better person when she's already got so much on her plate, but the alternative of course, is being a single mom with NINE kids....and that's no picnic either.

[EndoftheRope]

It's taken me awhile to answer this, partly because of time, other people always around the computer, and giving a lot of thought to the input you all gave me (thank you for that!) and to other things I'm reading on the LS forums.

 

from Lucrezia:

I expect these girls "crushes" - fun, carefree flirtations, sexual tension, excitement, attraction, newness - while you represent "love" - obligation, sameness, sexual monotony, attraction as an obligation, 'real life', etc... He may feel that you don't make him feel attractive and wanted in the same way that these 'flirt girls' do.

 

This makes a lot of sense. I have thought about it a lot, and I confess, I do not have any clue how it can be different. With 9 children, 3 jobs, a mortgage, etc, it is impossible for me to BE what this Kelly must appear: fun, cheerful, giving him strokes, making no demands. I honestly don't feel like I'm a high maintenance or demanding person, but I think that if she were the wife and mother and spending all her time at home with children while he had coffee and exchanged flirtatious e-mails with other women-- he'd quickly find her having some expectations of him, too. (I just wonder if he'll realize that before any damage is done. I can hardly talk to him about it, as he flat out denies there's an issue.)

 

I am not saying I'm dismal and miserable to be around. I realize that would naturally make anyone see greener grass elsewhere. But I think the carefree aspect probably is a big thing, and I just don't see, given that he and I have a great many obligations together, how I can not represent obligation and real life to him.

 

Could I flirt with him more? Make him feel attractive? A part of me says maybe. But we do still flirt to an extent, exchange double entendres, suggestive comments, and so forth. I don't think I've done anything to make him feel unattractive. But another part of me resents the feeling that I have to 'compete' on the level of a single 24 year old. He starts flirting with a 24 year old, and he gets rewarded for it?? If that's what it takes to save my marriage or stop him flirting, I'm honestly not sure I'm willing to do that.

 

I'm not arguing with anything you said... I think you're 100% on target. I'm just still deciding what to do with it.

 

Record Producer:

This is not an emotional affair. He needs sexual excitement in his life. Hence the fear of sexual dysfunction. There's nothing truly bad going on, but this might lead to cheating. He's hiding the account because he flirts and it's not as terrible as a deed as it is as a consequence of a marriage crisis.

Give him the excitement!

I am curious why you say this is not an emotional affair? Are you saying what he's doing is less than an emotional affair? Or possibly leading to more than, since you say he needs sexual excitement in his life? Are you saying these e-mails and hidden friendships are more about sex than emotions? I have gone out of my way in the last 12 years (since he complained) to make sure that he's getting sex as often as he wants. I initiate it 2 or 3 times a week, which I think can't be bad for a man married 16 years? But in all honesty, once I noticed that he was no longer initiating anything, I have become suspicious (in combination with the e-mails/friendships, I do wonder why) and resentful, and I don't feel like this marriage can survive with only one person making the effort in that area.

 

The advice I'd give myself if I were reading this would be: talk about it. The problem is, because he is not honest with me, talking is not ultimately very helpful. I know that a lot or even all of his lies go back to his desire to keep the peace at all costs, never to disagree, never to make waves-- but knowing WHY he lies doesn't help me to know what to believe or just how bad or how innocent the truth might be.

 

The first thing you can do is to STOP giving him any reason to believe that you are "controlling" him.

I feel I have given him little or no reason to believe I'm controlling. This originally came up with his sister's visit 12 years ago. If I remember correctly, the 'controlling' had a lot to do with money. We were living at about poverty level. I did not feel in the least 'poor,' as we managed money carefully, but I did worry about spending/saving. To this day, I feel that my having any thoughts or opinions at all on his spending was unfairly called 'controlling.' Since then, I have said virtually nothing about what he spends; I have said very little about his extreme unpunctuality; I keep my own bank account so I know we have savings and don't even look at his; I have fully supported him in whatever job path he wants to follow; I have worked my schedule around his; I have not stopped him or complained about the many times I've sat home while he gets scouting trips with the boys or vacations to see his family in Ireland, although these trips get expensive and I do the brunt work of staying home with the little kids. (And no, I don't resent it-- I think family is very important.) I am just saying, I can't imagine how I can be LESS controlling than I have been. At what point is it him manipulating me with false accusations of 'controlling?'

 

I do have a few more questions and comments, but I have a student due here in 4 minutes, so I have to get offline!

 

Once again, thank you for taking the time to listen and give some advice on this matter.