Do you believe in God?

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by UCFKevin

For the record, I think you may have missed this, Confused, I believe in God and Heaven.

 

No I didn't. I answered with: "Well, to believe the God of your own understanding is to believe in a false God."

 

In other words, people who believe their own interpretation of God or the Bible are not true Christians.

 

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by XNemesisX

ConfusedinOC I will have to say that I disagree with you on some things.

 

 

 

I think I talked about this more in depth in my thread on Freud and religious belief. Not to sound redundant, but some say that there is a lot to lose on believing in something that is ultimately false. Also, what if God doesn't like gamblers? What if he actually punishes those who believe in him for purely selfish reasons and for what they have to gain from it?

 

I'm about half asleep right now so I'm a bit cognitively impaired right now to say all that I would like to right now. If you haven't seen my post on Freud and Religious belief, then check it out. I would like to hear what you think about what I wrote. (Also I don't want to hijack Tiki's thread )

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t60400/

 

My comment?

 

Freud

 

Einstein has always gotten my respect, much more so than Freud. What does Einstein have to say about religion?

 

"True religion is real living; living with all one's soul, with all one's goodness and righteousness."

 

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

_Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium_ (1941) ch. 13

 

"I cannot believe that God would choose to play dice with the universe." or sometimes quoted as "God does not play dice with the universe."

 

"When the solution is simple, God is answering."

 

"I want to know God's thoughts. The rest are details."

 

 

And there are many more. Einstein, one of the most brilliant scientist mankind has ever seen, was a God fearing man. If you want me to debate Freud's opinions on religions, I really can't.

 

As I said earlier to UCFKevin, we can argue all day but I can not change your opinion if your mind is set.

 

Read my tag line in reply to Freud, the line that speaks about FAITH. Again, I used to think EXACTLY like Kevin.

 

Nemesis, have you read "The Purpose Driven Life"?

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by XNemesisX

I really don't believe for a second there was ever some forbidden fruit. C'mon people!

 

Anyone who believes that Adam and Eve story needs their head examined!

 

Kudos to you Auz for not taking the bible literal word for word. Nothing screams of dumb more than Christians who actually believe those ridiculous myths.

 

Now, now. I kind of follow along Auz's theory.

 

There's a whole bunch of information readily on the web if you want to search in regards to backing up the text in the Bible. I think some things can be lost in the translation but I believe what happened in the Bible essentially happend

[Dreamgirl03]

Yep..i sure do believe in God

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by UCFKevin

Well...I dunno about being that harsh on people who believe in Adam and Eve, but yeah...it's a pretty ridiculous story and if someone believes it word for word to have really happened....I dunno...

 

But you bring up an interesting point, Nemesis. It's almost like people, some people, believe in God for fear of being wrong and going to Hell instead of knowing in their hearts that what they believe is right and true with only the best of intentions, not just to get into Heaven, y'know?

 

I don't believe that those who believe in God just to avoid Hell will go to Heaven. You must come through Jesus to even get to God and simply saying "I believe in God" isn't enough. To truly get to Heaven and have a relationship with God, you have to accept Jesus. Period.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by moimeme

Nothin says lovin' like atheism.

 

Agreed!

 

As has been pointed out, you get ridiculed for everything when you're a kid. And you know what? If you, today, stood up FOR these adoptions rather than futhering the hatred, you yourself could change the futures of those kids.

 

I don't further hatred. I don't hate Gay people at all. I get hit on by gay men all the time (Hey, I'm cute but NOT gay!). The bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin. And while no Christian is perfect, myself included, I try to avoid repeating sins. There's no way to be homosexual and avoid sin 24/7.

 

I do change the future for kids. I help with Orphans in Mexico. I donate my time, my truck, and my money. I do the best that I can within the confines of Christianity. And if God says homosexuality is wrong, I really do not wish to see kids grow up in that environment.

 

Again, it's just my opinion. Let's agree to disagree, mmmk?

 

 

Oh right. Because that's the norm. Guess what? Not gonna happen. EVER. So then what you do is improve on what there is - you make a world where people aren't discriminated against for what they do in private.

 

I don't care what they do in private. Again, that's for God and God only to judge. You'll never see me bother a gay couple, ridicule them or insult them. If they asked my opinion on gay people raising kids, I would tell them the same thing I am saying here.

 

Then you better never eat another shrimp. Or pork. In fact, there's a ton of things you have to stop doing immediately and another ton you must begin to do immediately else your claim to 'believe the bible' is a crock. The same part of the Bible you think condemns gays also condemns disobedient children and adulterers to death by stoning. Got a nice supply of rocks in store? Here's Dyer's brilliant summary of the things you need to abhor if you, as you claim, 'live by the Bible'

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?postid=198822#post198822

 

Again, we're not perfect. God doesn't expect us to be. He expects us to live as closely to Jesus as we can of his example. You don't have to believe if you chose not to. I am not a religious extremest and I should probably bow out of this thread.

 

I understand people have their beliefs and I have mine. I simply gave my opinion. You won't change mine and I doubt I'll change yours. I am not angry at you, we just don't see the world the same way.

 

And I don't ridicule non-believers and I appreciate it when I myself am not ridiculed for believing. Thanks

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by XNemesisX

Also I would like to add that if you take the bible literally then you also believe that you are already damned to hell, Confused. (not saying that you take the bible completely literally, but just thought I would throw this in).

 

"A person begotten out of wedlock shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord; even until his tenth generation shall his descendants not enter into the congregation of the Lord" (Deut. 23:2).

 

Now SURELY no one could possibly believe this. I know it is from the Old Testament which lots of Christians say shouldn't be followed anymore because it was before Christ- but wouldn't this also discount the Adam and Eve story and other stories from the old testament?

 

Again, read "The Purpose Driven Life" and it'll answer all these questions.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by XNemesisX

Funny how many religious folk tend to pick and choose what they want to believe and follow from the bible....

 

There are a ton of them, no doubt. In God's eyes, they are not true Christians.

[XNemesisX]

Nemesis, have you read "The Purpose Driven Life"?

 

Nope. I have had a few people suggest that I read it though, so I may check it out.

 

I don't further hatred. I don't hate Gay people at all. I get hit on by gay men all the time (Hey, I'm cute but NOT gay!). The bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin. And while no Christian is perfect, myself included, I try to avoid repeating sins. There's no way to be homosexual and avoid sin 24/7.

 

That is a really outdated view. If homosexuality was a sin, then why are there gay animals?

 

if God says homosexuality is wrong, I really do not wish to see kids grow up in that environment.

 

Confused, you do not really believe this do you? Do you honestly think that a gay person would choose to be gay? Talk about being ridiculed!

 

There have been many studies done on gay animals and for me this proves this is not just confined to human beings and their "sinfulness." There is even evidence proving that some animals are bisexual. It's a smaller percentage, but it happens. They found that when animals are exposed to more stress while pregnant, the offspring will show mating behavior toward both the opposite sex and the same sex. Of course, studies are still ongoing but there appears to be a biological link.

[UCFKevin]

In other words, people who believe their own interpretation of God or the Bible are not true Christians.

 

Maybe it's just me but there's something awfully pompous and even somewhat rude about what you said there.

 

In other words, you're saying neener neener in a way.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by UCFKevin

Maybe it's just me but there's something awfully pompous and even somewhat rude about what you said there.

 

In other words, you're saying neener neener in a way.

 

No, that is strictly what the bible says. I should have made that clear before I said.

 

Also, I should confess that I am in over my head. I've only been a Christian for a year so I am not an expert.

[XNemesisX]

In other words, you're saying neener neener in a way.

 

Yeah, I thought that too Kevin!

 

Have you ever heard of exclusivism, Confused?

 

They believe that their religion is the ONLY true one, the ONLY way. It is incredibly pompous. You know there are also religions out there that think that way about Christians..they think THEIR way is the right way and that you are wrong. Who is to say which is true? Maybe none of them are!

 

I like the idea of pluralism. All religions are trying to reach the ultimate divine, the Real (this came from the philosopher Tillich by the way I didn't make that up ) So, all ways can lead to the same "ultimate being."

 

Inclusivism is at least one step above exclusivism though not much better. It's like saying "hey my religions is the right one, yours is wrong, but if you have not ever had the chance to hear about MY religion or if it wasn't readily available to you, then you still have a chance of going to heaven too. But if you heard about my religion and rejected it, then you are basically screwed."

[XNemesisX]

Also, I should confess that I am in over my head. I've only been a Christian for a year so I am not an expert.

 

How did this happen? Who brainwashed you? J/k

[XNemesisX]

Moose needs to get on here and help ya out Confused..I'm starting to feel like I'm picking on you and I really don't mean it to seem that way.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by XNemesisX

Nope. I have had a few people suggest that I read it though, so I may check it out.

 

It's a worthy read but you have to read the entire thing through.

 

That is a really outdated view. If homosexuality was a sin, then why are there gay animals?

 

So you believe the Bible is outdated?

 

Confused, you do not really believe this do you? Do you honestly think that a gay person would choose to be gay? Talk about being ridiculed!

 

Maybe, maybe not. I still don't believe it's a healthy environment to raise kids anymore than a broken home. Some may actually be successful at it. Some may not. Who knows?! If there is a study out there that says Gay people are just as successful at raising normal kids as straight couples, I'll never mention it again.

 

Obviously I am in the minority here and again, I do not make the rules we live by. If the State of CA wants to let gay couples raise kids and put it to vote, I'll exercise my right to vote. But we live in a Democratic Society and I have just one vote so ultimately we'll do what "we the people..." want

 

I need to stress this. I don't hate gay people. I have friends that are gay. They dislike my opinion of them raising kids, but they respect that I don't hide my views from them. They know where I stand. I don't tell them how to live nor when I see them do I yell "SINNER!" I am not a bible thumper. I try and live in peace with all God's creatures, you know? That's why I say that we'll all just disagree but that doesn't mean I hate you because we do. Again, if we all agreed on everything life certainly would be boring. Healthy Debategood. ArgumentBad.

 

And this from a former US Marine - too.

 

There have been many studies done on gay animals and for me this proves this is not just confined to human beings and their "sinfulness." There is even evidence proving that some animals are bisexual. It's a smaller percentage, but it happens. They found that when animals are exposed to more stress while pregnant, the offspring will show mating behavior toward both the opposite sex and the same sex. Of course, studies are still ongoing but there appears to be a biological link.

 

I don't disagree with you. But since animals are not made in the image of God, I can say that is probably why they can not sin

 

Like I said, there are people here much more indoctrinated in the Christian faith than I (MOOSE!) who could probably articulate what I am trying to say much better. Being a relatively new Christian, I probably got myself in much deeper than I should have and should bow out. Again, I am NOT the expert.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by XNemesisX

Moose needs to get on here and help ya out Confused..I'm starting to feel like I'm picking on you and I really don't mean it to seem that way.

 

Ah, Nemesis. It's OK. I find this debate healthy for my own faith as long as it's on an adult level and so far, except for the "neener neener" comment (just kidding, Kevin!) it has.

 

And I like your feistiness! One thing my Ex hated to do was debate. I love it!

 

I don't think you are picking on me. I became a Christian through my relationship with my Ex. She really did bring me around. Just because we're not seeing each other doesn't mean I have abandoned my faith. If anything, it's made my faith in God stronger. He has a plan for me and I'll continue to pray and ask for his guidance.

 

You must understand, since I became a Christian life has only gotten BETTER for me, not worse.

[XNemesisX]

So you believe the Bible is outdated?

 

I think a lot of it is.

 

Obviously I am in the minority here and again, I do not make the rules we live by. If the State of CA wants to let gay couples raise kids and put it to vote, I'll exercise my right to vote. But we live in a Democratic Society and I have just one vote so ultimately we'll do what "we the people..." want

 

I actually think you are in the majority on this one. I really don't think we will see gay marriage be widespread in our lifetimes or at least not until we are REALLY old. You can probably guess why - because there are so many Christians in this country who are against it!

 

And this from a former US Marine - too.

 

[johan]

The average person really doesn't have the authority to make up his or her own rules and cop out of the hard stuff by saying "the Bible can be interpreted lots of ways" or "it's out of date". A serious Christian would definitely not do that. Its just a way of saying you think you know better. It's a way of sidestepping God. Or of considering yourself your own god. Which is definitely choosing another god besides the true God. Which is a sin no matter how you interpret it.

 

Choosing another religion when you've been given the Truth is not any better. Is there wisdom in those other religions? Maybe. Do you REALLY claim to know they are worshiping the same God? You can't. It's a commitment you have to make: is it going to be God or god? Either you believe or you don't. If you really believed in God, you'd be a little too freaked out to say you think the Bible is out of date or there might be other religions that are worth looking into. It's not exclusivism or pompousness, it's just faith. And it makes anyone who wishes to meet God before really believing uncomfortable.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by XNemesisX

Anyone who believes that Adam and Eve story needs their head examined!

 

C'mon over any time, Nem

[Pocky]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

No I didn't. I answered with: "Well, to believe the God of your own understanding is to believe in a false God."

 

In other words, people who believe their own interpretation of God or the Bible are not true Christians.

 

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

 

You believe your own interpretation of the Bible so does that mean you're not a true Christian? Unless you have a sacred text that clearly defines everything taught in the Bible, everything you believe is merely an interpretation as well.

[MySugaree]

It's all interpretation and grammar, Pocky. God is just a noun.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by UCFKevin

Maybe it's just me but there's something awfully pompous and even somewhat rude about what you said there.

 

In other words, you're saying neener neener in a way.

 

Word.

 

Religion is such a personal thing. But any kind of discrimination makes me pissed off.

[Pocky]

Originally posted by MySugaree

It's all interpretation and grammar, Pocky. God is just a noun.

 

Exactly. By saying, the Bible means [insert interpretation] you're applying an interpretation that you accept. To use the same argument to invalidate an alternative viewpoint appears to be inconsistent with the entire argument.

 

You can't use the concept of interpretation to support a theory and use the concept of interpretation to oppose a theory.

 

As a side note, and this may cause me to appear pompous, I'm really finding out that discussing religion with anyone that isn't a theologian is frustrating and often pointless. It's a mistake on my part to assume that someone that claims they're religious is religiously educated. Some are, but on average, very few people really analyze the religion they claim to follow.

[tanbark813]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

Also, I should confess that I am in over my head. I've only been a Christian for a year so I am not an expert.

 

Yeah, and you took it up so you could get laid by the last girl you dated. That's not exactly following in the footsteps of Jesus.

[MySugaree]

Pocky, to analyze one's belief system, is to kill it--especially when that Belief system is built on the quicksand of revelation, faith, miracle and mystery. For many religious folks, their Belief is a matter of faith, not logic. Empirical proof, scientific debate and analytical methods are enemies of many totalistic Belief systems --whether religious-based or not. That's why in these "God" threads people talk at one another. There's no shared paradigm between the Believers and non-believers to make discussion worthwhile.

 

To the Believers, people like us, Pocky, are sinful, corrupt and blind to God's grace.. To us--the non-believers --the Believers are self-deluded, irrational and anti-intellectual.

 

I'm afraid there's no happy medium--especially on a public message board.

 

I'm with you, girl.