How long do you keep on trying?

[Otek]

So I came across this forum while looking for answers to a dilemma I'm experiencing at the moment. The front page of this sub has a lot of discussion about related subjects, all point towards finding balance etc. My question is a bit more specific though:

 

 

How long to you keep on trying to make a marriage work?

 

 

I can't tell you exactly where things went wrong as its been more of a gradual decline and the difficulty I have is that the more I try the further my wife seems to pull away from me. I'm at a point now though where more often than not I feel like a glorified housekeeper or room mate in my own house.

 

 

My wife is self employed and her business is finally taking off now after the birth of our second child. She's brilliant with the kids and fiercely protective of them. She's loyal to a fault with her family and jumps at any opportunity to help them...and after all that done, there's me.

 

 

There was a time that we were close and laughed but now we simply seem to live around each other. The relationship between my wife and my family has broken down to the point that I don't actually see them anymore and the last interaction I had with them resulted in her waiting for me when I got home from work saying she wanted a divorce.

 

 

We seemingly resolved this and in an attempt to get things going in a better direction again I tried to get us into counselling and even suggested we read something like the 5 love languages together. The end result was 1 session and me reading the book on my own and her scanning a chapter.

 

 

I still suggested we change things up and committed to making the first half hour of every night after we got the kids to bed about each other or 1 week a night for a date or movie at home. No TV's, phones, work, books or anything. Just 30 minutes where we sat and spoke. This lasted for about a week and she has spent most nights since working. The dates haven't happened either because she doesn't trust anyone to look after the kids.

 

 

I understand that since the birth of our children I'll never be first in my wife's life again. I respect her for how committed she is to her business and am extremely happy for her that its going well. In the end though being supportive and doing my part around the house has only resulted in a greater divide though between my wife and I.

 

 

I've raised my concerns with her and discussed this at length, she always responds with the right things and confirms that she still wants us to be together but the reality is that I've spent the last few weeks alone on the couch waiting for her just to have a conversation. When she's done working I get to proof read what she's done and we go to sleep.

 

 

So

 

 

How long to you do you keep on trying?

[central]

This is something that can be fixed in a reasonably short time, or not at all, IMO.

 

Give it 6 months. Tell her that the marriage is in trouble and you both need to work together to save it. Employ whatever techniques you may need, including marriage counseling. If she isn't responding, start focusing on improving yourself - exercise, diet, etc. - and stop doing anything affectionate for your wife unless she initiates first. Of course focus on your kids as well, and reestablish your relationship with your family. She'll either notice you pulling away and start making an effort, or she won't, which will tell you all you need to know.

 

If there hasn't been significant improvement after 6 months, file for divorce, focus even more on yourself, and follow through on the divorce unless she makes a concerted and consistent effort to win you back.

[d0nnivain]

It's not how long you have tried (quantity). It's the quality of what you have done.

 

 

Until you try both marriage & individual counseling you have not done enough. 1 session & you reading a book is not enough. However, if she refuses to try & since she has already mentioned divorce, there may not be much you can do.

[apeman101]

Start working out and pumping iron at the GYM. Make yourself more attractive person. This is not a solution but its a start.

 

She simply has everything for now. You are a provider, her kids are the priority. You need to take action to create attraction or else she is going to lust out for some other guy

[Otek]

Thanks for all the responses, just to deal with some of the comments:

 

 

This is something that can be fixed in a reasonably short time, or not at all, IMO.

 

Give it 6 months. Tell her that the marriage is in trouble and you both need to work together to save it. Employ whatever techniques you may need, including marriage counseling. If she isn't responding, start focusing on improving yourself - exercise, diet, etc. - and stop doing anything affectionate for your wife unless she initiates first. Of course focus on your kids as well, and reestablish your relationship with your family. She'll either notice you pulling away and start making an effort, or she won't, which will tell you all you need to know.

 

If there hasn't been significant improvement after 6 months, file for divorce, focus even more on yourself, and follow through on the divorce unless she makes a concerted and consistent effort to win you back.

 

 

This is close to the approach I wanted to take when I discussed these issues with my wife. Its been a couple of months already though and I'm the only one who is trying. So do I just stop trying and carry on as if nothing is amiss and she if responds?

 

It's not how long you have tried (quantity). It's the quality of what you have done.

 

 

Until you try both marriage & individual counseling you have not done enough. 1 session & you reading a book is not enough. However, if she refuses to try & since she has already mentioned divorce, there may not be much you can do.

 

The situation is such that I don't get the opportunity to spend any quality time with my wife, as mentioned she barely trusts anyone else with the kids. This results in everything that I attempt to arrange for either having to include the kids or about a years planning in advance to get her around to the idea.

 

 

As to the counselling, I am more than willing to continue, she is not interested though. She hasn't brought divorce up again but I've had to wonder how long it is before she does again and in that event if I shouldn't just agree.

 

 

Start working out and pumping iron at the GYM. Make yourself more attractive person. This is not a solution but its a start.

 

She simply has everything for now. You are a provider, her kids are the priority. You need to take action to create attraction or else she is going to lust out for some other guy

 

Of this entire statement I guess the bold part actually rings most true. I have given everything I could and she lacks for nothing, if she can sustain it by herself, why still have me around?

[oldshirt]

 

I understand that since the birth of our children I'll never be first in my wife's life again. I respect her for how committed she is to her business and am extremely happy for her that its going well. In the end though being supportive and doing my part around the house has only resulted in a greater divide though between my wife and I.

 

 

 

So in other words you are the servant and not the king.

 

You are the butler and not the Lord of the manner.

 

You are the sailor swabbing the decks and not the captain.

 

Women always desire the Lord of the manner over the butler.

 

This is a classic case of her losing attraction and desire for you because you have become her girlfriend and her servant and not the dashing, ambitious, assertive and self-determined guy she originally fell for.

 

Assuming you have no true offenses such as being abusive, cheating, being a drunk or abandoning the family, this can be fixed. You mostly just have to get your balls back and stop being her girlfriend and her servant. Women don't desire their girlfriends.

 

Don't interpret that as me saying that you should not be supporting her and being good to her etc. You need to support her but from a position as the leader and head of the household and not as a servant and assistant babysitter.

 

This is a loss of attraction and some loss of respect as spouse and seeing you as a roommate and help around the house.

 

You will need to bump up your attractiveness and bump up your status as a man, husband, leader and provider.

 

The resources that will help you the best are two books by Athol Kay called "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" and "The Mindful Attraction Plan."

 

And you may also benifit by the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover.

 

Those books are for YOU and not really for her. She is perfectly happy and satisfied with the status quo and has no need for counseling and books etc from her point of view. You are the one that is unsatisfied so you are the one that is going to have to change things up.

[oldshirt]

Now to answer your actual question on how long to try. Here is the answer to that question.

 

Get the books I mentioned above and formulate a plan based on your weaknesses and what you need to do to be the person she will respect and desire as a man, husband and head of the household.

 

The Athol Kay books have an actual algorithm to follow but it is basically you build yourself up to where you could walk away from her and be able to get another woman/women of equal or greater quality than her and at that point you clearly state what your wants and needs are and what your expectations of a wife and life you have.

 

If she still continues to show no meaningful changes, then you give her the option of stepping up to the plate and making a sincere and honest effort to meet hour needs or of being a divorced mother while you carry on with your life with someone who does try to meet your needs.

 

If she still doesn't make meaningful improvements, then you move on.

 

It's impossible to put a specific timeline on how long because that depends a lot on how much work you need to do to fix yourself up but a general rule of thumb is will take at least a month of hard work on your part for each year that she has had decreasing attraction and respect for you.

[oldshirt]

I'll address a few specific things in bold below.

 

 

 

 

I can't tell you exactly where things went wrong as its been more of a gradual decline and the difficulty I have is that the more I try the further my wife seems to pull away from me.

 

this means what you've been doing has been the wrong tactic, you'll need to do something different. The problem is that very often the things that Oprah and society say that women want is often at odds with what they actually respond to. Women want guys that help them take care of the kids and clean the house but the the guys they actually respect nd desire as men are completely different. You'll need to take on some of the behaviors, traits and characteristics of guys women screw in bars while still being a decent husband and father.

 

 

 

 

I'm at a point now though where more often than not I feel like a glorified housekeeper or room mate in my own house.

 

are you acting like a roommate and housekeeper?

 

My wife is self employed and her business is finally taking off now after the birth of our second child.

 

 

how is YOUR business doing? Women respect and desire men who are successful and ambitious in their own careers and not men who are helpers in their wife's career. (I know the feminists are jumping up and down and having a fit, but it is what it is.)

 

 

She's brilliant with the kids and fiercely protective of them. She's loyal to a fault with her family and jumps at any opportunity to help them...and after all that done, there's me.

 

 

this is an issue of boundaries and expectations and having the balls to enforce them. You are in your right as her husband to have your wants and needs met before she devotes time and energies to extended family. This is where you can't be a pussy. She can do whatever she wants with extended family when you are divorced.

 

There was a time that we were close and laughed but now we simply seem to live around each other. The relationship between my wife and my family has broken down to the point that I don't actually see them anymore and the last interaction I had with them resulted in her waiting for me when I got home from work saying she wanted a divorce.

 

next time she does that, take her up on it. Schedule a meeting with your divorce attorney.

 

You are letting her rule the roost and call the shots. That is why she has lost respect and desire for you. This is an example of that. This is where the book "No more Mr nice guy" Will help you.

 

It's not really about being "nice", It's about letting people push you around.

 

 

We seemingly resolved this and in an attempt to get things going in a better direction again I tried to get us into counselling and even suggested we read something like the 5 love languages together. The end result was 1 session and me reading the book on my own and her scanning a chapter.

 

 

read that paragraph you wrote again. Not the use of the words "tried" and "suggested" and "attempted".

 

This is all talk. You are trying to talk her into respecting you. Did John Wayne or Clint Eastwood or Chuck Norris ever try, attempt or suggest that people treat them better????? No. They took charge and did what they believed was right and if people didn't go along with them, they got left behind.

 

I still suggested we change things up and committed to making the first half hour of every night after we got the kids to bed about each other or 1 week a night for a date or movie at home. No TV's, phones, work, books or anything. Just 30 minutes where we sat and spoke.

 

 

those are things that chicks try to do when they aren't getting enough attention. If you don't want to be treated like a girlfriend, stop acting and whining like a chick.

 

This lasted for about a week and she has spent most nights since working.

 

She sounds like the man of the house.

 

The dates haven't happened either because she doesn't trust anyone to look after the kids.

 

 

ok this is what I am talking about when I mention growing balls and taking action. Don't ask her if she is comfortable getting a sitter so you can take a night out.

 

Instead you find a sitter, schedule a time for her to be at your house, give her the orientation to your kids and house and what she needs to do and then take your wife out.

 

If she refuses, go out without her.

 

 

I understand that since the birth of our children I'll never be first in my wife's life again.

 

And this is why you are not. This is why you aren't even 2 nd or 3rd. This is why you are 427th in her hierarchy of priorities.

 

 

 

 

I respect her for how committed she is to her business and am extremely happy for her that its going well.

 

you have to flip that around to where she is proud of your accomplishments and admires your ambition and your prowess.

 

In the end though being supportive and doing my part around the house has only resulted in a greater divide though between my wife and I.

 

 

you are correct in that assessment. I'm not saying you should stop being responsible for your home. You just need to take a more traditionally masculine role in the home and family. Athol Kay's books and website explain those things well.

 

I've raised my concerns with her and discussed this at length, she always responds with the right things and confirms that she still wants us to be together but the reality is that I've spent the last few weeks alone on the couch waiting for her just to have a conversation.

 

again, this is what chicks do. Stop waiting for her to entertain you. If she's busy, use that time to lift weights, fix the car, repair the roof, work on making money etc etc.

 

 

 

When she's done working I get to proof read what she's done and we go to sleep.

 

women don't respect their servants.

 

So

 

 

How long to you do you keep on trying?

 

 

once you are no longer acting like a chick and no longer acting like a servant and you have reached a state of attractiveness that you can consistently get other women of equal or greater quality than her and once you have enough of a life that you wouldn't be truly harmed, then you give her the option of stepping up to the plate or being left behind.

 

If she steps up, then you were successful.

 

If she declines, then you move on and take up with one of the other women.

 

The whole key to life here is to set yourself up for success whichever she does.

 

[SJS]

I would say as long as one partner has hope, keep trying. Sometimes one person is the only thing keeping a marriage together, while the other spouse "comes around".

[oldshirt]

Let me sum up all my posts into this - get your balls back. Lay down some boundaries and expectations. And get a life. .....more specifically get a man's life.

 

She's as happy as a hog in slop and has it made. The only reason she would have to change is if she doesn't want to be a single mother because you have moved on with some younger, prettier chick that gives you the time of day.

 

To get a younger, prettier chick you are going to have to get your balls back, have some firm boundaries and have a good man's life.

 

You are the one sitting on the couch waiting for someone to talk to you. There for you are the one that's going to have to get a life. Pursue a good career. Get out and do fun things with fun people. Get in shape and get good looking. Have a circle of good friends and do things with them. Get some hobbies.

Do manly, masculine things.

 

You need to be a good supportive and loving husband and father. But being a roommate, housekeeper and being a good supportive wife and girlfriend is not working out for you.

[Miss Sisyphus]

oldshirt is right--my partner cooked meals and loaded the dishwasher. Sometimes he mowed the grass. He didn't do much of anything I would consider to be typically "masculine." I've told him that when I have to do his job (fix the car, make all the big--and small--decisions, bring in the majority of the income, etc ), I feel like I have to be the man in the relationship. Then I compare myself to other women who have husbands who allow their wives to be "feminine" (they don't have to crawl under a car to change the fuel filter, for instance). That makes me feel like his mother, not his partner.

 

Actually, we aren't together as of last week because we had an argument over him helping me fix the car. He didn't want to help me and I called him "childish." So he left.

 

Sorry if it isn't politically correct, but I want a masculine man so that I can feel like a feminine woman. It's really that simple.

 

If he could go back to the way he was when we first met, I would be happy to be with him.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Miss Sisyphus

[Miss Sisyphus]

I think it's only fair to add that I may have had a hand in emasculating him. I'm not sure how, but it IS possible.

 

Do you think you wife has emasculated you?

[BlackHat]

I spent years trying to fit a 7" screw in a 8" hole. Believe me I tried every conceivable way. At the beginning I loved that screw so much that I just placed some paper around at it seemed to work...until it rained and then I had to put more paper over and over again.

 

I also tried tape, and I even went to screws´ therapy to see whether the problem could be solved with a professional. Everybody told me that the problem was that I was not working hard enough on it.

 

Then, one day, almost by miracle, I decided to get myself a 8" screw for an 8" hole...

 

...if you get my drift.

[Mr. Lucky]

The relationship between my wife and my family has broken down to the point that I don't actually see them anymore and the last interaction I had with them resulted in her waiting for me when I got home from work saying she wanted a divorce.

 

Either your wife is Bipolar or you're leaving out an awful lot of details. How does a family interaction lead to a divorce request ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[dichotomy]

Everything oldshirt said ....and.

 

 

1) Don't just do it to be the Captain of her ship, but also your own. If it does not work out with her then you need to be the King/Lord/Captain of your OWN life and as a father..

 

2) Prepare for divorce and the worst. If she is used to emasculating or using you - she will do this x10 in a divorce. Find a put bull female lawyer have a consult, prepare financially to fight.

 

3) Check to see if she is a cheating. An alpha female who is successful, driven, is not likely to go without hard driving ...other things in her life for long.

[truncated]

It sounds like your situation is pretty complex and may not simply boil down to her not being attracted to you or her not viewing you as her "king".

 

 

There is a disconnect between the two of you, and that is almost never one sided. I'm not blaming you, but I am asking, if you were to put yourself into her shoes, and try seeing your marriage from her perspective, what do you think she would say? What do you think she feels are the problems?

 

 

A few ideas that may be small stepping stones.

 

When our kids were small, we were dead @ss broke, so meals out were not an option, and we had to find ways to have "romance" around the house. We'd put the kids to bed and have date night at home. Lots of candles, nice music, a nice meal that we cooked together and then we'd lay together on the blanket we'd spread on the floor for our "indoor picnic" and listen to the music we had when we were dating. Sometimes we'd talk about how things would be in the future, but often, we'd just enjoy the silence between us when you can feel really connected without having to say anything.

 

 

Something more about what you wrote stood out to me. It doesn't sound as if you and your wife have a lot of fun together. It also sounds as if she is wrapped up in the idea of being a "perfect" mom and getting her business up and off the ground. Is it possible that she feels guilt about taking time away from her kids to do this and this is comming out as this deep seated need to be there for the kids when she is not working?

 

One more thing that struck me is that she doesn't sound like a person who expresses her feelings best verbally. Have you tried writing out your feelings and the reasons behind them and sharing that with her while you sit together? That way, she'll have to slow down long enough to read what you have to say and hopefully give it her full attention.